Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

Hole wrote:Read what Mindstorm wrote about that topic. The VKS wants to use her attack helicopters like front bombers to attack important targets Deep behind the frontline.

dino00 wrote:State tests of the latest Ka-52M attack helicopter will be completed at the end of 2022. Now the efforts of the military and engineers are focused on the early launch of its competitor, the Mi-28NM Night Hunter, in a series.

The Ka-52M is a fully redesigned version of the reconnaissance and strike Ka-52. The car was equipped with new weapons, sighting system and composite armor. Among the experts, the Ka-52M has already received the nickname Super Alligator.

Experts believe that the apparatuses of the Milya and Kamov design bureaus have their own niches - both helicopters will certainly be brought to the series and will enter the troops, albeit at different times.

A phased plan for testing new on-board systems and weapons for the upgraded Ka-52M has already been drawn up (Izvestia has a copy of the document). Helicopter trials are planned to be completed in December 2022, sources in the military-industrial complex told Izvestia.According to the interlocutors of the publication, it has been decided so far to concentrate the main forces on the Mi-28NM project.

The development program of this machine will finish earlier. A large order has already been signed for the Night Hunter.As Izvestia previously wrote, the modernization of the Ka-52 was initiated after studying the Syrian experience in using a helicopter. In the Middle East, Kamov participated in battles against ISIS (banned in Russia), including the operation to liberate Palmyra. Also, several marine vehicles were part of the Admiral Kuznetsov cruiser air group during his trip to the Syrian coast.At the request of the military, the Super Alligator strengthened the reservation.

The airborne defense complex protecting the vehicle from anti-aircraft missiles will also be updated. In its arsenal, the Ka-52M will receive Hermes-A long-range ammunition capable of hitting targets at a distance of 15–20 km. As well as guided anti-tank Vikhr-M with a range of up to 8 km - they have already been used in Syria.For the effective use of new missiles, a multi-channel aiming system GOES-451 will undergo deep modernization.

About half a billion rubles have been allocated for its completion. It is planned to increase the range of detection and recognition of targets using optics and a helicopter radar day and night, in any weather.The engineers also plan to automatically pair the machine with the Sagittarius intelligence, control and communications complex.

Ground forces, special forces and airborne forces will be able to automatically exchange information with the Ka-52M about the situation on the battlefield. This will help to accurately guide aircraft to enemy targets.Pumping "Alligator"Army aircraft operate at relatively low altitudes and are more exposed to the

https://iz.ru/1008123/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/kradushchiisia-alligator-ispytaniia-ka-52m-zavershatsia-cherez-dva-goda

They don't need ATGM with 100km range. That would be an expensive cruise missile because missiles with 100km range are already expensive so a miniaturized version would be even more.

30km is already enough and russians have the su-24/25 that can use kh-38 missiles with 80km range. A normal country won't opperate more than 500 tanks so they need to have around 1000 kh-38 and 200 su-25 to have a distinctive advantage.

A mi28 with 10km atgm is already a deadly threat. There isn't many mobile AD systems deployed or in development that can down them at such distances and they can even threaten the AD systems by taking advantage of the terrain and the EW/RWR system allows them to locate the enemy radars.

Also having a targeting system that can lock on a moving tank 100km away and hidden in the woods isn't easy to make or cheap. Modern atgm have very cheap laser receivers and are pretty simple.

The VKS wants to use her attack helicopters like front bombers to attack important targets Deep behind the frontline.

You don't attack important target with atgm. If you mean buildings, HQ... you need a powerfull warhead and the missile would be in the class of kh35 or the smaller one I posted a picture about few post above.

Perhaps the Idea of giving it a 100km range is so that they do not need to waste thier designers time constantly developing new missiles every time an enemy gets a slightly less shitty short range AD vehicle.

And it makes the nato fanboys cry.

With the advances in avionics and electronics, I wonder why they do not reconsider returning to a single seat configuration. This will increase the performance of the aircraft.

Ironically the Kh-38 is overkill for tanks... it has a 250kg HE warhead which is a bit excessive for taking on a tank... there will be an enormous range of targets on a battlefield in addition to tank type targets... Hermes will be used against tanks and armoured vehicles but also bunkers and HQs  and other targets probably including light patrol vessels and low flying aircraft.

But that is the point... these new long range missiles are not ATGMs any more... they are multi purpose missiles for a range of targets.

Hole wrote:The range of the weapon keeps the carrier out of range of AD systems.

Hole wrote:Read what Mindstorm wrote about that topic. The VKS wants to use her attack helicopters like front bombers to attack important targets Deep behind the frontline.

Yes it would be overkill but that means nothing. Like I say modern army have few hundreds of tanks and few AD systems so using 500-600 kh38 against them is worth the price because if you take out the enemy tanks then its ground forces have no punch and are composed of light vehicles which will have to run away with all the HQ and other high value targets. They will give up.

In WW2 they used hundreds of thousands of tons of explosives. It's not 500 kh38 that will bankrupt Russia.

Then the best option is a missile used by the bombers to share weaponery btw them. But for such targets an su-24/34 would be used as they have better range and speed than helicopters and stay out of range of AD.

Yeah but not out of range of enemy fighters. A su34 going back home at mach 0.8 once it launched its missile is way hard to intercept than a ka-52 going at 300km/h.

Any AD can be shut down and turned on once the target is in range, not only russian systems. And you fon't know where the system are, they could be near the tar1t to protect of 20km in front of it making you go inside the firig range.

A jet will have more chance to surivive thanks to manoeuvrability and speed.

It'll be interesting if they decided create a anti-radiation, SEAD/DEAD or even a deep strike variant for the Kh-35. The Kh-35 has a 145kg warhead with a 300km range, but for SEAD/DEAD role a 145kg warhead would be overkill. They could get away with a 14.5 kg warhead (perhaps even with a specialized warhead like an EMP), and maybe push the range well beyond 300km, like 500-600km.

In most cases I would say the're already weapons that fill that role, but in this case their isn't one (of that range) for the Ka-52.

Lets say there is a hypersonic sniper rifle with a 5 mile max range. It would be pointless shooting that far away if you do not have a scope that supports seeing a target 5 miles away. And it would be pointless to have a 5 mile range shooting distance if you do not have a scope that supports seeing a target 5 miles away. Ka-27 is estimates to see a tank 70kms away.

State tests of the upgraded combat helicopter Ka-52M with a new long-range cruise missile "product 305" should be completed by October 2022. This is stated in the materials posted on the public procurement website.



The deadlines for testing the Ka-52M with the “product 305” rocket became known

Considering that these helicopters will be the main air support for over the horizon landing operations, it makes a lot of sense that they will be equipped with new cruise missiles with 100 km range, in order to clear defences onshore before the landing force can be targeted by them...

Bit of a change of pace, but, what ever happened to the Ugroza guidance kit for the S-series of rockets? I remember thinking it was a brilliant idea, especially for the S-8KOM(HEAT) variant. Yet, all these years later, not a single picture or video of its existence, let alone its adoption into service. Shame, really.

Was wondering if any of you'd heard/seen anything.

George1 wrote:Russia’s upgraded Ka-52M combat helicopter makes debut flight

GarryB wrote:

Their nose mounted cm wave AESA radars should be able to detect ship sized targets out to pretty enormous ranges too, so longer ranged missiles will keep them safe from short and medium range defences...

В таком режиме, например, можно обнаруживать крупные корабли на дальности до 150–180 км, т.е. практически на порядок дальше, чем с использованием миллиметровой РЛС.

Bit of a change of pace, but, what ever happened to the Ugroza guidance kit for the S-series of rockets? I remember thinking it was a brilliant idea, especially for the S-8KOM(HEAT) variant. Yet, all these years later, not a single picture or video of its existence, let alone its adoption into service. Shame, really.

Was wondering if any of you'd heard/seen anything.

GarryB wrote:
I know what you mean... from what I read about the system it sounded brilliant... not as expensive as guided missiles, in fact only slightly more expensive than a standard round.... say 5-10 times more expensive... which is fine because with a 20 shot rocket pod instead of launching a volley of 10-20 rockets at a distant point target like an IED truck or small ute with a HMG on its back, you could just launch one rocket that you loft into the air for extra range with a good chance of a direct hit.... if you hit the target then one rocket will do, but normally multiple rockets need to be fired because of their lack of accuracy.

The concept is brilliant because cheap rockets are versatile weapons that can pack quite a punch against spread out targets like troops in the open, or hidden enemies in trees... you can't see them but you know they are in there so a nice even volley of rockets from a couple of aircraft from different directions at once is the best solution.... guided missiles would not be more effective but much much more expensive and cannon fire would not really be as effective either.

I first heard about the system in the early 1990s, and in the 2001-2002 edition of Russias Arms there was an article about it under aircraft delivered weapons.. where it seemed to suggest that the rockets themselves were actually guided rockets rather than standard rockets with guidance kits added... which is fine... sometimes you just want dumb simple cheap rockets, so perhaps a setup with a 20 shot rocket pod where four are guided and the remaining 16 are unguided could be used as the best of both worlds.

To answer your question however... no, have not heard any new information, but I do remember reading that two competing designs were being worked on, and that often when that happens the winner is chosen and put in service but the competitor is then free to offer their product for export to try to get sales too... it happened with the Havoc being revealed before the Hokum at international airshows in the late 80s and early 90s where the Hokum was still secret an we didn't even know what it looked like,  while the Mi-28 went to the Farnborough and Paris airshows I seem to remember...

Perhaps they have a guided rocket kit for domestic use, but normally they would be keen to sell it too so I don't think so.

Certainly nothing on their export website.

With the new rocket pod designs and ground vehicle based rocket pods I would think guided rockets would become a rather efficient way of getting some HE on target quickly and cheaply...

They do have a laser guided version of their S-25 rocket, which is a large single rocket carried in a pod launcher.... it effectively is a rocket powered 150kg bomb often carried by the Su-25 for CAS roles... the S-25LM is the laser guided version...

Werewolf wrote:Stating that they would expect Ka-52K with an AESA radar would pick up a big ship at a distance around 150-180km. Those figures are quite old from 2014 and the link doesn't work anymore.
http://take-off.nichost.ru/pdf_$/5_2014.pdf

Apparently the S-8 Ugroza version was more expensive as believed and had little effect from the sheer limited amount of explosives it could carry, therefore they never purchased it or in very few numbers. I can understand to some degree why they would deem it to be ineffective since they have weapons to deal with soft targets but they have limited use against hard targets. However they have made a trade off and neglected the benefits from S-8 Ugroza which would be the range it can engage accurately targets even when those targets are just soft targets.
However the S-13 and S-25 Ugroza version exists in armament. I would like to see them actually being used.

The guy from Phazotron talks about a two band radar (mm and cm) being thought for the Ka-52, I wonder if this has something to do with the supposed AESA setup for the Ka-52M having what looks like two antennas:

Hole wrote:It currently uses a decimetre and millimetre band radar.

GarryB wrote:Cm wave would be excellent for aircraft targets and for long range use... even in bad weather. MMW radar has shorter range but offers much better discrimination and is ideal for objects on the ground or sea surface... it is however effected by weather... but performance is better than visual performance as it is still radar.