Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6194
    Points : 6186
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:25 pm

    Hole wrote:Read what Mindstorm wrote about that topic. The VKS wants to use her attack helicopters like front bombers to attack important targets Deep behind the frontline.

    There is no post from him on this page. Where is it ?

    You don't attack important target with atgm. If you mean buildings, HQ... you need a powerfull warhead and the missile would be in the class of kh35 or the smaller one I posted a picture about few post above.
    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 817
    Points : 865
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:55 pm

    Perhaps the Idea of giving it a 100km range is so that they do not need to waste thier designers time constantly developing new missiles every time an enemy gets a slightly less shitty short range AD vehicle.

    And it makes the nato fanboys cry.
    avatar
    william.boutros

    Posts : 121
    Points : 123
    Join date : 2015-08-13

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  william.boutros on Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:14 pm

    dino00 wrote:State tests of the latest Ka-52M attack helicopter will be completed at the end of 2022. Now the efforts of the military and engineers are focused on the early launch of its competitor, the Mi-28NM Night Hunter, in a series.

    The Ka-52M is a fully redesigned version of the reconnaissance and strike Ka-52. The car was equipped with new weapons, sighting system and composite armor. Among the experts, the Ka-52M has already received the nickname Super Alligator.

    Experts believe that the apparatuses of the Milya and Kamov design bureaus have their own niches - both helicopters will certainly be brought to the series and will enter the troops, albeit at different times.

    A phased plan for testing new on-board systems and weapons for the upgraded Ka-52M has already been drawn up (Izvestia has a copy of the document). Helicopter trials are planned to be completed in December 2022, sources in the military-industrial complex told Izvestia.According to the interlocutors of the publication, it has been decided so far to concentrate the main forces on the Mi-28NM project.

    The development program of this machine will finish earlier. A large order has already been signed for the Night Hunter.As Izvestia previously wrote, the modernization of the Ka-52 was initiated after studying the Syrian experience in using a helicopter. In the Middle East, Kamov participated in battles against ISIS (banned in Russia), including the operation to liberate Palmyra. Also, several marine vehicles were part of the Admiral Kuznetsov cruiser air group during his trip to the Syrian coast.At the request of the military, the Super Alligator strengthened the reservation.

    The airborne defense complex protecting the vehicle from anti-aircraft missiles will also be updated. In its arsenal, the Ka-52M will receive Hermes-A long-range ammunition capable of hitting targets at a distance of 15–20 km. As well as guided anti-tank Vikhr-M with a range of up to 8 km - they have already been used in Syria.For the effective use of new missiles, a multi-channel aiming system GOES-451 will undergo deep modernization.

    About half a billion rubles have been allocated for its completion. It is planned to increase the range of detection and recognition of targets using optics and a helicopter radar day and night, in any weather.The engineers also plan to automatically pair the machine with the Sagittarius intelligence, control and communications complex.

    Ground forces, special forces and airborne forces will be able to automatically exchange information with the Ka-52M about the situation on the battlefield. This will help to accurately guide aircraft to enemy targets.Pumping "Alligator"Army aircraft operate at relatively low altitudes and are more exposed to the


    https://iz.ru/1008123/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/kradushchiisia-alligator-ispytaniia-ka-52m-zavershatsia-cherez-dva-goda

    With the advances in avionics and electronics, I wonder why they do not reconsider returning to a single seat configuration. This will increase the performance of the aircraft.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25937
    Points : 26483
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:05 am

    They don't need ATGM with 100km range. That would be an expensive cruise missile because missiles with 100km range are already expensive so a miniaturized version would be even more.

    The two stage rocket layout of the Hermes means 100km is the max range it would achieve. It has a 30kg warhead that can be used against different target types, so it can attack armour it can also deal with other targets too.

    30km is already enough and russians have the su-24/25 that can use kh-38 missiles with 80km range. A normal country won't opperate more than 500 tanks so they need to have around 1000 kh-38 and 200 su-25 to have a distinctive advantage.

    Ironically the Kh-38 is overkill for tanks... it has a 250kg HE warhead which is a bit excessive for taking on a tank... there will be an enormous range of targets on a battlefield in addition to tank type targets... Hermes will be used against tanks and armoured vehicles but also bunkers and HQs  and other targets probably including light patrol vessels and low flying aircraft.

    Kh-38 will be used against bridges and buildings and SAM sites etc etc as well as ships and other large targets...

    A mi28 with 10km atgm is already a deadly threat. There isn't many mobile AD systems deployed or in development that can down them at such distances and they can even threaten the AD systems by taking advantage of the terrain and the EW/RWR system allows them to locate the enemy radars.

    And they will continue to carry and use Shturm and Ataka and Krisantema and Vikhr for smaller lighter targets that don't warrant heavier weapons. For targets whose precise location is not certain then having longer ranged missiles that can be launched towards a targets coordinates and send back information about what it sees in flight allowing targeting in real time is a useful thing... this new weapon described as having 25km+ range with a datalink and IIR seeker sounds like a useful system for taking on capable opponents...

    Also having a targeting system that can lock on a moving tank 100km away and hidden in the woods isn't easy to make or cheap. Modern atgm have very cheap laser receivers and are pretty simple.

    AFAIK the missiles that will be hitting targets 100km away will be against fixed non moving targets. They will also have missiles with IIR sensors and datalinks back to the launch platform that can be launched towards targets with the guidance system of the missile being used to confirm targets and attack them in real time... which is pretty much what the AS-13 and AS-18 were doing in the early 1980s but with a TV system rather than IIR for day night and all weather capability.

    The VKS wants to use her attack helicopters like front bombers to attack important targets Deep behind the frontline.

    Makes sense... if you can sit back and launch a missile to penetrate enemy air defences it means the launch platform no longer needs to fly at mach 1.2 at low altitude... a missile could fly twice as fast and still deliver payload on target...


    You don't attack important target with atgm. If you mean buildings, HQ... you need a powerfull warhead and the missile would be in the class of kh35 or the smaller one I posted a picture about few post above.

    But that is the point... these new long range missiles are not ATGMs any more... they are multi purpose missiles for a range of targets.

    They will still have ATGMs for tank like targets over more normal ranges (up to 20km)...

    Perhaps the Idea of giving it a 100km range is so that they do not need to waste thier designers time constantly developing new missiles every time an enemy gets a slightly less shitty short range AD vehicle.

    And it makes the nato fanboys cry.

    I rather suspect it is because the Hermes missiles are two stage missiles with a choice of guidance options and a significant warhead (30kgs) that means a wider variety of targets can be engaged and with suicide drones and net centricity that targets further away can be engaged...

    With the advances in avionics and electronics, I wonder why they do not reconsider returning to a single seat configuration. This will increase the performance of the aircraft.

    The original argument for the single seat Ka-50 was that an F-16 or MiG-29 can basically be operated by a single crewman, and it entered service, but after Desert Storm it became clear that operating at night and preferably in bad weather improved the safety of helicopters as MANPADS have become rather effective and night conditions and poor weather mean even MANPADS are not so effective... and of course they have to be in the right place at the right time to be effective too.

    It was decided that low level flying in a helicopter even with modern night vision equipment and even terrain avoidance capacity (Mi-28) was a full time job so two crew were considered necessary. The ability of a second crewman to control drones or process information from drones and use that information to attack targets makes a second crewman useful I suspect.

    Should point out that the first model Hermes is supposed to have a range of up to 20km and later models extend that with ballistic launches to 100km eventually.

    This new IIR guided missile for both helos was described as having a range of 25km+ but is now known to have rather better range of up to 100km too.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6194
    Points : 6186
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:49 am

    Ironically the Kh-38 is overkill for tanks... it has a 250kg HE warhead which is a bit excessive for taking on a tank... there will be an enormous range of targets on a battlefield in addition to tank type targets... Hermes will be used against tanks and armoured vehicles but also bunkers and HQs  and other targets probably including light patrol vessels and low flying aircraft.

    Yes it would be overkill but that means nothing. Like I say modern army have few hundreds of tanks and few AD systems so using 500-600 kh38 against them is worth the price because if you take out the enemy tanks then its ground forces have no punch and are composed of light vehicles which will have to run away with all the HQ and other high value targets. They will give up.

    In WW2 they used hundreds of thousands of tons of explosives. It's not 500 kh38 that will bankrupt Russia.

    But that is the point... these new long range missiles are not ATGMs any more... they are multi purpose missiles for a range of targets.

    Then the best option is a missile used by the bombers to share weaponery btw them. But for such targets an su-24/34 would be used as they have better range and speed than helicopters and stay out of range of AD.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3139
    Points : 3139
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Hole on Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:38 pm

    The range of the weapon keeps the carrier out of range of AD systems.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6194
    Points : 6186
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:13 pm

    Hole wrote:The range of the weapon keeps the carrier out of range of AD systems.

    Yeah but not out of range of enemy fighters. A su34 going back home at mach 0.8 once it launched its missile is way hard to intercept than a ka-52 going at 300km/h.

    Any AD can be shut down and turned on once the target is in range, not only russian systems. And you fon't know where the system are, they could be near the tar1t to protect of 20km in front of it making you go inside the firig range.

    A jet will have more chance to surivive thanks to manoeuvrability and speed.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6112
    Points : 6263
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:05 pm

    Hole wrote:Read what Mindstorm wrote about that topic. The VKS wants to use her attack helicopters like front bombers to attack important targets Deep behind the frontline.

    It'll be interesting if they decided create a anti-radiation, SEAD/DEAD or even a deep strike variant for the Kh-35. The Kh-35 has a 145kg warhead with a 300km range, but for SEAD/DEAD role a 145kg warhead would be overkill. They could get away with a 14.5 kg warhead (perhaps even with a specialized warhead like an EMP), and maybe push the range well beyond 300km, like 500-600km.

    In most cases I would say the're already weapons that fill that role, but in this case their isn't one (of that range) for the Ka-52.
    thegopnik
    thegopnik

    Posts : 153
    Points : 159
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  thegopnik on Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:52 am

    Lets say there is a hypersonic sniper rifle with a 5 mile max range. It would be pointless shooting that far away if you do not have a scope that supports seeing a target 5 miles away. And it would be pointless to have a 5 mile range shooting distance if you do not have a scope that supports seeing a target 5 miles away. Ka-27 is estimates to see a tank 70kms away.

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Main-q10

    So I do not see a problem why the ka-52M would have better radar performance to hit mobile targets from far away. Its just wrong to quickly discard information if you do not know if it will be false or not.

    Russian ground forces trying to hit their targets 1st is nothing new. The T-14 has a 12km Sprinter ATGM and a soon to be Sokol-V ATGM which i am assuming the range would be longer. Meaning this tank outranges the average apache with 8km hellfire missiles. Sure 25km Spike NLOS can help but that takes up a lot of weapon space and the T-14 has an APS that can deal with it. The Katran will have no problems hitting a ship since after all it is equipped with anti-ship missiles and has a radar that supports the missiles range if we simply look at the chart for the ka-27 above. The mi-28nm is now equipped with R-74M missiles with a 40km range so not only are helicopters given SAM mission roles but can even be used to target military jets by popping out of a building.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25937
    Points : 26483
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:22 pm

    Yes it would be overkill but that means nothing. Like I say modern army have few hundreds of tanks and few AD systems so using 500-600 kh38 against them is worth the price because if you take out the enemy tanks then its ground forces have no punch and are composed of light vehicles which will have to run away with all the HQ and other high value targets. They will give up.

    Well that is true, but load outs for aircraft are generally based on their mission target, so if their mission target is some tanks then I would expect an Su-25SM3 would get more suitable missiles to carry... perhaps the Vikhr packs with 8 missiles per pylon or perhaps Hermes packs with four Hermes missiles per pylon if they are hunting tanks. Attack helicopters like the Ka-52 and Mi-28NM will have Krisantema and Vikhr and Hermes too most of the time, plus rockets.

    Kh-38 will be used against buildings and bridges and fuel depots and aircraft hangars...

    In WW2 they used hundreds of thousands of tons of explosives. It's not 500 kh38 that will bankrupt Russia.

    They could afford to use them... but the Kh-38 is not a tiny weapon... it is not a replacement for the Kh-25 family of missiles with a 90kg warhead and a 10km to 40km range depending on the model... it is a replacement for the Kh-29 with a 315kgs warhead and a range of 10-30km depending on the model... except the Kh-38 has a range of 40km for the export model and 80km for the domestic model with a 250kg HE warhead... that is one hell of a punch... effectively five times the HE weight of an anti tank Maverick missile...

    AFAIK the 80km range version of Kh-38 is only the cluster munition armed model designed for anti tank use.

    But Grom is a mach 2 rocket powered glide bomb... 250kg warhead with 100km range.... it is based on the Kh-38 and the Grom 2 replaces the rocket motor with an extra 130kg warhead... it has a range of up to 40km or so from a high altitude high speed release and is a glide weapon.


    Then the best option is a missile used by the bombers to share weaponery btw them. But for such targets an su-24/34 would be used as they have better range and speed than helicopters and stay out of range of AD.

    Helicopters impose a serious limitation on weight and size to be carried as regular armament... weapons for fighters and strike aircraft can be bigger and heavier and with better performance... further improved with high altitude and high speed launches of course.

    Drones could use both types of weapons depending on size of course...

    Yeah but not out of range of enemy fighters. A su34 going back home at mach 0.8 once it launched its missile is way hard to intercept than a ka-52 going at 300km/h.

    On flat open terrain I would say they are not that much different... in fact a helicopter being able to execute a 90 degree turn makes it a trickier target in some cases, but both will have self defence suites.

    In hilly terrain they both become difficult and add in the fact that the helicopter with 100km range missiles is going to be at least 80km away from its target when it launches its missiles.... why is that worse than with current missiles where it needs to fly an extra 80km to get within 20km of the target to engage...

    Any AD can be shut down and turned on once the target is in range, not only russian systems. And you fon't know where the system are, they could be near the tar1t to protect of 20km in front of it making you go inside the firig range.

    Very true, but these missiles don't find their targets based on the signals the targets are emitting... they use IIR sensors to detect the targets so a shut down AD vehicle will be detected and could be targeted... just like Brimstone will be scanning with MMW radar for ground targets... but a Panstir or TOR should detect that and be able to engage. The point is that a supersonic missile will blow past a shut down AD vehicle with its systems turned off and could reach its target before the AD gets its A into G.

    A jet will have more chance to surivive thanks to manoeuvrability and speed.

    I would save those jets for more serious targets than a group of tanks with air defence...

    It'll be interesting if they decided create a anti-radiation, SEAD/DEAD or even a deep strike variant for the Kh-35. The Kh-35 has a 145kg warhead with a 300km range, but for SEAD/DEAD role a 145kg warhead would be overkill. They could get away with a 14.5 kg warhead (perhaps even with a specialized warhead like an EMP), and maybe push the range well beyond 300km, like 500-600km.

    In most cases I would say the're already weapons that fill that role, but in this case their isn't one (of that range) for the Ka-52.

    Interesting idea... perhaps the reduced size Kh-35... make it a 250kg missile and replace the 145kg warhead with perhaps a 40kg HE Frag warhead to blow down phased array antenna... passive radar with IIR backup that sees the radar array for a direct hit... the difference in warhead size from the smaller missile could be used for extra fuel to restore some range... maybe 150km-200km which would be plenty... Maybe some slightly forward swept wings to provide more lift during flight so lower throttle settings could be used...

    Or perhaps a mini Kh-31 with a scramjet motor replacing the ramjet...

    Lets say there is a hypersonic sniper rifle with a 5 mile max range. It would be pointless shooting that far away if you do not have a scope that supports seeing a target 5 miles away. And it would be pointless to have a 5 mile range shooting distance if you do not have a scope that supports seeing a target 5 miles away. Ka-27 is estimates to see a tank 70kms away.

    True, but what we are talking about is firing bullets that can manouver and see the target themselves... so a radar emission 100km away from an American vehicle, or a unit spotted by drone before it is destroyed it notices a large number of HATO tanks... fire a few suicide drones to further investigate and start killing targets...

    The Russians have set up a military that now shares information so units will know where friendlies are and where enemy units are... extending the range of their weapons means that targets can be engaged from surprise directions... imagine two Russian divisions operating 40km apart and a drone between them detects enemy activity between the two divisions... now if the target is moving towards a division and away from the other one you can assume they will be focussing forward on the division they are closing in on... so the division behind them activates their Smersh battery and fires 100 x 300mm rockets each with diving top attack anti tank munitions... do they stop the attack and turn and face their new threat because that would risk the force they were attacking to then attack them again from behind... (note those 100 rockets would contain 500 top attack anti tank guided sub munitions...)
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6112
    Points : 6263
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:17 pm

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 6720c9d43afe83d1592989078

    GarryB, ahmedfire, dino00 and Werewolf like this post

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6112
    Points : 6263
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:19 am

    State tests of the upgraded combat helicopter Ka-52M with a new long-range cruise missile "product 305" should be completed by October 2022. This is stated in the materials posted on the public procurement website.

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 1594452878_snimok

    The deadlines for testing the Ka-52M with the “product 305” rocket became known

    GarryB and dino00 like this post

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6112
    Points : 6263
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:52 am

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 267337

    GarryB, zardof and LMFS like this post

    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1394
    Points : 1435
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  dino00 on Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:30 pm

    Protection for "Alligators": the updated Ka-52M will be ready by December

    When upgrading serial combat helicopters, special attention is paid to ways to increase their survivability


    The first two updated Ka-52M Superaligator helicopters should be ready by December 2020. These are the deadlines for the completion of the work agreed by the Ministry of Defense. The re-equipment of production vehicles for the start of testing has already begun, and a major contract is expected to be concluded at the forthcoming Army-2020 forum in August for the purchase of hundreds of combat helicopters of this type for the Aerospace Forces. According to experts, upgrading the model will cost much less than developing a new one
    ...
    Now at the Far Eastern helicopter plant AKK "Progress" are re-equipment of two serial machines. They will be used for testing.
    ...
    The Kamov company last year reported on the attraction of a loan in the amount of 1.5 billion rubles to carry out work on the modernization of the Alligators and conduct their tests under this agreement.

    Despite the fact that development work is still underway, the largest contract for the purchase of the Ka-52M is expected to be concluded at the Army 2020 exhibition in August.

    ...
    The media reported that the helicopter will be equipped with "product 305" and its modifications. Under this name is known the "Light multipurpose guided missile" (LMUR), which is also planned to be used on the Mi-28NM and Mi-8AMTSh-VN Sapsan. Its reach of 15–20 km is twice as large as the ammunition currently in service with domestic rotorcraft.


    Full Article
    https://iz.ru/1039191/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/zashchita-dlia-alligatorov-obnovlennye-ka-52m-budut-gotovy-k-dekabriu

    LMFS likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25937
    Points : 26483
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:45 am

    Piotr Butowskis book "Russias air launched weapons" Describes LMUR as being like Ataka, and says it is not related to Hermes...

    Will be interesting...

    dino00 likes this post

    Cheetah
    Cheetah

    Posts : 61
    Points : 65
    Join date : 2016-11-26
    Location : Australia

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cheetah on Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:00 am

    Bit of a change of pace, but, what ever happened to the Ugroza guidance kit for the S-series of rockets? I remember thinking it was a brilliant idea, especially for the S-8KOM(HEAT) variant. Yet, all these years later, not a single picture or video of its existence, let alone its adoption into service. Shame, really.

    Was wondering if any of you'd heard/seen anything.
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1946
    Points : 1946
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  LMFS on Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:16 pm

    Russian Helicopters with expectations of providing the Ka-52K for the new 23900 UDKs:

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=0&nid=535672&lang=RU

    Considering that these helicopters will be the main air support for over the horizon landing operations, it makes a lot of sense that they will be equipped with new cruise missiles with 100 km range, in order to clear defences onshore before the landing force can be targeted by them...
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 14944
    Points : 15443
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:42 am

    Russia’s upgraded Ka-52M combat helicopter makes debut flight

    dino00, slasher and LMFS like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25937
    Points : 26483
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:11 am

    Considering that these helicopters will be the main air support for over the horizon landing operations, it makes a lot of sense that they will be equipped with new cruise missiles with 100 km range, in order to clear defences onshore before the landing force can be targeted by them...

    Their nose mounted cm wave AESA radars should be able to detect ship sized targets out to pretty enormous ranges too, so longer ranged missiles will keep them safe from short and medium range defences...

    Bit of a change of pace, but, what ever happened to the Ugroza guidance kit for the S-series of rockets? I remember thinking it was a brilliant idea, especially for the S-8KOM(HEAT) variant. Yet, all these years later, not a single picture or video of its existence, let alone its adoption into service. Shame, really.

    Was wondering if any of you'd heard/seen anything.

    I know what you mean... from what I read about the system it sounded brilliant... not as expensive as guided missiles, in fact only slightly more expensive than a standard round.... say 5-10 times more expensive... which is fine because with a 20 shot rocket pod instead of launching a volley of 10-20 rockets at a distant point target like an IED truck or small ute with a HMG on its back, you could just launch one rocket that you loft into the air for extra range with a good chance of a direct hit.... if you hit the target then one rocket will do, but normally multiple rockets need to be fired because of their lack of accuracy.

    The concept is brilliant because cheap rockets are versatile weapons that can pack quite a punch against spread out targets like troops in the open, or hidden enemies in trees... you can't see them but you know they are in there so a nice even volley of rockets from a couple of aircraft from different directions at once is the best solution.... guided missiles would not be more effective but much much more expensive and cannon fire would not really be as effective either.

    I first heard about the system in the early 1990s, and in the 2001-2002 edition of Russias Arms there was an article about it under aircraft delivered weapons.. where it seemed to suggest that the rockets themselves were actually guided rockets rather than standard rockets with guidance kits added... which is fine... sometimes you just want dumb simple cheap rockets, so perhaps a setup with a 20 shot rocket pod where four are guided and the remaining 16 are unguided could be used as the best of both worlds.

    To answer your question however... no, have not heard any new information, but I do remember reading that two competing designs were being worked on, and that often when that happens the winner is chosen and put in service but the competitor is then free to offer their product for export to try to get sales too... it happened with the Havoc being revealed before the Hokum at international airshows in the late 80s and early 90s where the Hokum was still secret an we didn't even know what it looked like, while the Mi-28 went to the Farnborough and Paris airshows I seem to remember...

    Perhaps they have a guided rocket kit for domestic use, but normally they would be keen to sell it too so I don't think so.

    Certainly nothing on their export website.

    With the new rocket pod designs and ground vehicle based rocket pods I would think guided rockets would become a rather efficient way of getting some HE on target quickly and cheaply...

    They do have a laser guided version of their S-25 rocket, which is a large single rocket carried in a pod launcher.... it effectively is a rocket powered 150kg bomb often carried by the Su-25 for CAS roles... the S-25LM is the laser guided version...

    dino00 likes this post

    avatar
    owais.usmani

    Posts : 374
    Points : 374
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 34

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  owais.usmani on Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:32 am

    George1 wrote:Russia’s upgraded Ka-52M combat helicopter makes debut flight

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Efff0v10

    George1, dino00, Werewolf and LMFS like this post

    Werewolf
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5291
    Points : 5494
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Their nose mounted cm wave AESA radars should be able to detect ship sized targets out to pretty enormous ranges too, so longer ranged missiles will keep them safe from short and medium range defences...

    Some years ago when KA-52K was just in the planning there were figures mentioned by Jurij Guskovyj "General Engineer OAO Fazotron NIIR".


    В таком режиме, например, можно обнаруживать крупные корабли на дальности до 150–180 км, т.е. практически на порядок дальше, чем с использованием миллиметровой РЛС.

    Stating that they would expect Ka-52K with an AESA radar would pick up a big ship at a distance around 150-180km. Those figures are quite old from 2014 and the link doesn't work anymore.
    http://take-off.nichost.ru/pdf_$/5_2014.pdf

    I would assume that the figures are slightly higher since, when I am remembering correctly the basis for the AESA radar was the ZHUK AESA radar from MiG-35.

    Bit of a change of pace, but, what ever happened to the Ugroza guidance kit for the S-series of rockets? I remember thinking it was a brilliant idea, especially for the S-8KOM(HEAT) variant. Yet, all these years later, not a single picture or video of its existence, let alone its adoption into service. Shame, really.

    Was wondering if any of you'd heard/seen anything.

    GarryB wrote:
    I know what you mean... from what I read about the system it sounded brilliant... not as expensive as guided missiles, in fact only slightly more expensive than a standard round.... say 5-10 times more expensive... which is fine because with a 20 shot rocket pod instead of launching a volley of 10-20 rockets at a distant point target like an IED truck or small ute with a HMG on its back, you could just launch one rocket that you loft into the air for extra range with a good chance of a direct hit.... if you hit the target then one rocket will do, but normally multiple rockets need to be fired because of their lack of accuracy.

    The concept is brilliant because cheap rockets are versatile weapons that can pack quite a punch against spread out targets like troops in the open, or hidden enemies in trees... you can't see them but you know they are in there so a nice even volley of rockets from a couple of aircraft from different directions at once is the best solution.... guided missiles would not be more effective but much much more expensive and cannon fire would not really be as effective either.

    I first heard about the system in the early 1990s, and in the 2001-2002 edition of Russias Arms there was an article about it under aircraft delivered weapons.. where it seemed to suggest that the rockets themselves were actually guided rockets rather than standard rockets with guidance kits added... which is fine... sometimes you just want dumb simple cheap rockets, so perhaps a setup with a 20 shot rocket pod where four are guided and the remaining 16 are unguided could be used as the best of both worlds.

    To answer your question however... no, have not heard any new information, but I do remember reading that two competing designs were being worked on, and that often when that happens the winner is chosen and put in service but the competitor is then free to offer their product for export to try to get sales too... it happened with the Havoc being revealed before the Hokum at international airshows in the late 80s and early 90s where the Hokum was still secret an we didn't even know what it looked like,  while the Mi-28 went to the Farnborough and Paris airshows I seem to remember...

    Perhaps they have a guided rocket kit for domestic use, but normally they would be keen to sell it too so I don't think so.

    Certainly nothing on their export website.

    With the new rocket pod designs and ground vehicle based rocket pods I would think guided rockets would become a rather efficient way of getting some HE on target quickly and cheaply...

    They do have a laser guided version of their S-25 rocket, which is a large single rocket carried in a pod launcher.... it effectively is a rocket powered 150kg bomb often carried by the Su-25 for CAS roles... the S-25LM is the laser guided version...

    Apparently the S-8 Ugroza version was more expensive as believed and had little effect from the sheer limited amount of explosives it could carry, therefore they never purchased it or in very few numbers. I can understand to some degree why they would deem it to be ineffective since they have weapons to deal with soft targets but they have limited use against hard targets. However they have made a trade off and neglected the benefits from S-8 Ugroza which would be the range it can engage accurately targets even when those targets are just soft targets.
    However the S-13 and S-25 Ugroza version exists in armament. I would like to see them actually being used.

    LMFS likes this post

    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1946
    Points : 1946
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  LMFS on Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:08 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Stating that they would expect Ka-52K with an AESA radar would pick up a big ship at a distance around 150-180km. Those figures are quite old from 2014 and the link doesn't work anymore.
    http://take-off.nichost.ru/pdf_$/5_2014.pdf

    Good hint, this link works:

    http://take-off.nichost.ru/pdf/2014/5_2014.pdf

    Page 20

    The guy from Phazotron talks about a two band radar (mm and cm) being thought for the Ka-52, I wonder if this has something to do with the supposed AESA setup for the Ka-52M having what looks like two antennas:

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Aesa_w10

    dino00 likes this post

    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3139
    Points : 3139
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Hole on Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:50 am

    It currently uses a decimetre and millimetre band radar.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25937
    Points : 26483
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:26 pm

    Apparently the S-8 Ugroza version was more expensive as believed and had little effect from the sheer limited amount of explosives it could carry, therefore they never purchased it or in very few numbers. I can understand to some degree why they would deem it to be ineffective since they have weapons to deal with soft targets but they have limited use against hard targets. However they have made a trade off and neglected the benefits from S-8 Ugroza which would be the range it can engage accurately targets even when those targets are just soft targets.
    However the S-13 and S-25 Ugroza version exists in armament. I would like to see them actually being used.

    The critical thing was that it had to be cheap... it had to be the equivalent in cost of 5-10 unguided rockets otherwise it didn't make sense.

    As you mention the payoff is being able to loft the rockets ballisticly at distant targets with a good chance of a hit and kill... because normally they are limited to between 3km and 4km range which is not bad... out of small arms fire and light cannon range, but still inside MANPADS range.

    They develop new nose mounted fuses for their large calibre artillery that included guidance fins and a GLONASS receiver for less than $1,000 US dollars, and I was hoping Ugroza was something similar... a nose mounted device that could be attached to any existing S-8 and S-13 rocket and used on any helicopter that currently uses rockets without modification.

    On the artillery round it uses GLONASS guidance to hit a specific coordinate, but a simple optical sensor that detects a laser target mark would be just as good if it could be made cheap enough.

    Perhaps a set of wings to make it glide to rather greater distances too and improve its ability to hit accurately could be part of the design.

    The guy from Phazotron talks about a two band radar (mm and cm) being thought for the Ka-52, I wonder if this has something to do with the supposed AESA setup for the Ka-52M having what looks like two antennas:

    Cm wave would be excellent for aircraft targets and for long range use... even in bad weather. MMW radar has shorter range but offers much better discrimination and is ideal for objects on the ground or sea surface... it is however effected by weather... but performance is better than visual performance as it is still radar.

    Note the ground launched Krisantema uses a MMW radar for guidance so this would make it rather useful on this model Kamov for all weather day or night use... even in a white out or in the desert brown out.
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1946
    Points : 1946
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  LMFS on Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:34 pm

    Hole wrote:It currently uses a decimetre and millimetre band radar.

    Do you have further info? I f I understood the interview correctly, the Katran uses de cm band while the regular VKS version works in the mm band, that is why they were thinking in making a combination of both, but I don't know if the idea was really implemented and is operational already. They were talking about it being cheaper than an AESA radar, sort of proposing it as an advanced variant for the future.

    GarryB wrote:Cm wave would be excellent for aircraft targets and for long range use... even in bad weather. MMW radar has shorter range but offers much better discrimination and is ideal for objects on the ground or sea surface... it is however effected by weather... but performance is better than visual performance as it is still radar.

    Agree, and that is why a multiband setup is far superior to the systems used in other helicopters. It allows the Ka-52 to be used as a serious surface asset, added to its capability of carrying Kh-35 or the newer 100 km range CM it will be a very potent platform for the newer BDKs/UDKs

    Sponsored content

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 25 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:54 pm