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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    RTN
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    Post  RTN on Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:16 Apaches can carry 16 Hellfires each but each missile is not that fast and has a max range of about 12km at best which means even within range of 100mm and 130mm guns and any 57mm guns that might be fitted.

    Another issue is Hellfire or any other PGM that has live relaying of video footage feature will alert enemy air defenses. That's because any kind of electronic emission like live relaying will alert the enemy.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:48 am

    Quite true but I also suspect a large number of high speed rocket powered missiles will have a significant heat signature that will alert IR sensors.

    Equally such attacks are not launched out of the blue, and with organisations like NATO leaking like a sieve early warning of the plans could lead to issues and problems for the attacker...

    The Russian Navy is becoming net centric with a unified IADS across platforms, with links to land bases, satellites, subs and aircraft, so the chance of surprise is diminished significantly.

    Of course there are some attacks from which there is little in the way of defence, but the consequences and benefits make such actions seem irrational.

    I mean lets say a Russian corvette is attacked by 3 US Marine carriers with say.. 20 Apaches launching the naval equivalent of Brimstone from 40km range... 16 per aircraft... so that is about 320 missiles... so that corvette gets sunk... how long is Russia going to wait before launching Kh-32 and Zircon and Onyx and Kinzhal attacks on those three carriers... and is the loss of three carriers worth sinking one corvette and starting a war?

    More importantly tying up 20 Apaches to attack one corvette is an enormous waste of resources, or having a sub equipped with hundreds of small short range missiles is a total waste of a submarines capacity... instead of having hundreds of slow easy to shoot down small short range missiles it could carry smaller numbers of larger heavier much much faster and much longer ranged missiles like Zircon and upgraded Onyx...

    And that is the issue... you can use stealth or speed with manouver performance or numbers... the talk in the US of using numbers suggests they don't have speed as an option and their stealth is not working... traditionally the west has used numbers and stealth... lots and lots of Harpoons and Tomahawks and of course stealthy planes to deliver them, while the Soviets looked at US carrier groups with AWACS and IADS like AEGIS, and they realised that their missiles are going to be detected so their best option is to shorten the detection and interception window by making them fast.

    Scramjets have made very much faster easier to achieve... mach 5 or faster used to require rocket propulsion which is big and heavy and does not burn for long enough for decent range... scramjet means you carry fuel and collect the O2 on the way from the air around the platform... it also means you can use the throttle to use fuel much more efficiently...
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    Post  jhelb on Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:is the loss of three carriers worth sinking one corvette and starting a war?

    U.S will use non-state actors/mercenaries to attack Russian ships and other assets. They won't attack directly. They only attack third world countries directly.
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    Post  RTN on Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The idea of multiple small threats used together to overwhelm the defences of an air defence system is based on use against small speed boats with heavy machineguns or light cannon or rocket launchers in the back, and basically Hellfires are the solution to be fired individually at each small boat.

    US fighters will launch decoys like ADM 160 MALD as part of the first strike wave. They are equipped with radar enhancers to give them the radar signature of a strike fighter.

    As you may have imagined the goal there is to overwhelm an air-defense network with false targets so that a) they turn on their radars and become susceptible to anti-radiation missiles b) the real fighters can get to their targets without getting shot at too much. If the enemy wastes missiles on decoys, even better. So whether the SAM in question is S-400, TOR, BUK etc this is how NATO will try to hit these SAM systems.

    The SR71 Blackbird had the ability to project multiple radar images of itself so if a radar seeking missile as on it’s way the missile system would see 10 or 12 images, and of course wouldn’t be able to hit the SR71.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:53 am

    US fighters will launch decoys like ADM 160 MALD as part of the first strike wave. They are equipped with radar enhancers to give them the radar signature of a strike fighter.

    As you may have imagined the goal there is to overwhelm an air-defense network with false targets so that a) they turn on their radars and become susceptible to anti-radiation missiles b) the real fighters can get to their targets without getting shot at too much. If the enemy wastes missiles on decoys, even better. So whether the SAM in question is S-400, TOR, BUK etc this is how NATO will try to hit these SAM systems.

    The SR71 Blackbird had the ability to project multiple radar images of itself so if a radar seeking missile as on it’s way the missile system would see 10 or 12 images, and of course wouldn’t be able to hit the SR71.

    Yeah, but that works both ways... Russian EW might mean they don't see a Corvette at all... or they see hundreds of them... a disposable active jammer can be used to attract all the missiles with home on jam capability... the jammer might be smaller than an office desk but armoured a projecting a target the size of an aircraft carrier so enemy missiles might hit it repeatedly yet never actually explode close enough to the actual jammer itself to destroy it..

    SR-71s were tracked from takeoff to landing... projecting alternative targets probably wouldn't be effective enough to save it... the Soviets evolved most of their SAM systems to be able to deal with them and projected radar targets are meaningless to a MiG-31s with R-40TD IR guided missiles that could get lockons head on from 120km because of the surface temperature of the SR-71...

    The SR-71 was the reason the R-40TD remained in service as long as it did...

    U.S will use non-state actors/mercenaries to attack Russian ships and other assets. They won't attack directly. They only attack third world countries directly.

    Which pretty much solves the problem... how many mercenaries operate Apache helicopters or subs with hundreds of short range missiles to overwhelm a target let alone false target drones?
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:49 pm

    although i have heard of the Ka-52 being able to be armed with Kh-35 missiles never seen one armed.

    article on it.
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/ka-52k/

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:50 am

    It is a rather big missile that the land based Hokum really couldn't take full advantage of... its warhead is about 150kgs so 100kgs lighter than a Kh-38 (though with longer range of course) and 150kgs lighter than the Kh-29s warhead, these air to surface missiles make more sense against hard targets like entire buildings or bridges or heavy bunkers or fortified buildings.

    The main feature of the Kh-35 is its stand off performance for use against ships, but its air to surface land attack model might be useful against well protected targets like SAMs and HQs and comms centres etc.

    For the naval Ka-52k however in its primary role as anti ship missile and secondary land attack role it would be useful if big and heavy.

    Having a choice of weapons is certainly not a bad thing... Smile
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    Post  mnztr on Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:10 am

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:is the loss of three carriers worth sinking one corvette and starting a war?

    U.S will use non-state actors/mercenaries to attack Russian ships and other assets. They won't attack directly. They only attack third world countries directly.


    Russia has access to far more non-state actors then the USA. And many non-state actors are afraid of the Russia.
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:17 am

    GarryB wrote:It is a rather big missile that the land based Hokum really couldn't take full advantage of... its warhead is about 150kgs so 100kgs lighter than a Kh-38 (though with longer range of course) and 150kgs lighter than the Kh-29s warhead, these air to surface missiles make more sense against hard targets like entire buildings or bridges or heavy bunkers or fortified buildings.

    The main feature of the Kh-35 is its stand off performance for use against ships, but its air to surface land attack model might be useful against well protected targets like SAMs and HQs and comms centres etc.

    For the naval Ka-52k however in its primary role as anti ship missile and secondary land attack role it would be useful if big and heavy.

    Having a choice of weapons is certainly not a bad thing...  Smile

    There any sources for its land-attsck capability?
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    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:55 am

    It was tested against groynd targets in Syria. I think there was even some video released by MoD.

    But its warhead is made to destroy ship and is not very effective against buildings.

    Anyway they are already making a missile for their naval choppers :

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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:27 am

    Isos wrote:It was tested against groynd targets in Syria. I think there was even some video released by MoD.

    But its warhead is made to destroy ship and is not very effective against buildings.

    Anyway they are already making a missile for their naval choppers :

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 24 En8pov12

    What was it launched from?
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    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:47 am

    The only info I have about this is this pic.

    If they put it near a kh-35 then it means it's an antiship missile and its size means launch from aircraft. I guess naval helicopters and drones will be main carriers.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:58 am

    They showed photos of the Kh-35 next to Su-34s I seem to think from memory.

    Also they have said all of their other anti ship missiles like Granit and Onyx and Vulcan etc etc have been modified to allow land based targets be engaged... don't know whether they use their radar for terminal portion of attack or just GLONASS coordinates.
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    Post  dino00 on Wed May 06, 2020 11:21 pm

    State tests of the latest Ka-52M attack helicopter will be completed at the end of 2022. Now the efforts of the military and engineers are focused on the early launch of its competitor, the Mi-28NM Night Hunter, in a series.

    The Ka-52M is a fully redesigned version of the reconnaissance and strike Ka-52. The car was equipped with new weapons, sighting system and composite armor. Among the experts, the Ka-52M has already received the nickname Super Alligator.

    Experts believe that the apparatuses of the Milya and Kamov design bureaus have their own niches - both helicopters will certainly be brought to the series and will enter the troops, albeit at different times.

    A phased plan for testing new on-board systems and weapons for the upgraded Ka-52M has already been drawn up (Izvestia has a copy of the document). Helicopter trials are planned to be completed in December 2022, sources in the military-industrial complex told Izvestia.According to the interlocutors of the publication, it has been decided so far to concentrate the main forces on the Mi-28NM project.

    The development program of this machine will finish earlier. A large order has already been signed for the Night Hunter.As Izvestia previously wrote, the modernization of the Ka-52 was initiated after studying the Syrian experience in using a helicopter. In the Middle East, Kamov participated in battles against ISIS (banned in Russia), including the operation to liberate Palmyra. Also, several marine vehicles were part of the Admiral Kuznetsov cruiser air group during his trip to the Syrian coast.At the request of the military, the Super Alligator strengthened the reservation.

    The airborne defense complex protecting the vehicle from anti-aircraft missiles will also be updated. In its arsenal, the Ka-52M will receive Hermes-A long-range ammunition capable of hitting targets at a distance of 15–20 km. As well as guided anti-tank Vikhr-M with a range of up to 8 km - they have already been used in Syria.For the effective use of new missiles, a multi-channel aiming system GOES-451 will undergo deep modernization.

    About half a billion rubles have been allocated for its completion. It is planned to increase the range of detection and recognition of targets using optics and a helicopter radar day and night, in any weather.The engineers also plan to automatically pair the machine with the Sagittarius intelligence, control and communications complex.

    Ground forces, special forces and airborne forces will be able to automatically exchange information with the Ka-52M about the situation on the battlefield. This will help to accurately guide aircraft to enemy targets.Pumping "Alligator"Army aircraft operate at relatively low altitudes and are more exposed to the


    https://iz.ru/1008123/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/kradushchiisia-alligator-ispytaniia-ka-52m-zavershatsia-cherez-dva-goda
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    Post  GarryB on Thu May 07, 2020 7:05 am

    A little off topic but regarding the death by 1000 cuts, I was reading about the exploits of Soviet submarines and read reports where the subs had run out of torpedos and had to use the deck gun. In one case the 47mm AA deck gun of a Soviet sub was used to sink a civilian ship but it took about 3 hours and about 400 47mm shells to do it.

    I think this is evidence that it can be done but obviously they would prefer to use torpedos, and if the target had any sort of self defence capacity the sub would have been in enormous trouble.

    Regarding 16 Apaches with 16 Hellfire missiles each most Russian ships will have Redut meaning air targets within 40km will be shot down before getting close enough to launch a volume attack and even those without Redut have 100mm guns that can take down air targets with proximity fuse air burst shells against both missiles and shells and of course chaff and flare and smoke protection from incoming weapons.

    Back on topic I would suspect a civilian vessel could be stopped and if found to be carrying contraband or illegal items... as with the pirate patrol operations then because of problems regarding ownership of the vessel some times it might be best to remove all crews from the ship and put them in the rescue boats and then sink the main boat... a bit of small arms training to start with and perhaps ending with rocket fire from the naval support helos like the Ka-52M to finish her off.

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