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    An-124 Strategic Transport: News

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:49 pm

    The ones derived from the An-12 are the Y-8 and the Y-9, the Y-20 is more like inspired to the American C‐17, and has a wider cargo area compared to the Il-76.
    The Chinese wanted it to have a payload of 66tons, but it is instead limited in the payload because of weak engines (the old 12tons of thrust D30 mounted also in the first version of the il-76.

    The Chinese are trying to develop better engines for it but they are still several years away from something modern.
    That is the reason they are trying to acquire the Ukrainian Motor Sich.

    Something like the Russian PS-90, especially in the higher thrust rating variants, would be an enormous improvement for the Y-20.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:09 pm

    The Y-20 is also not relevant in this case because it is based on the An-12 and therefore not relevant either.
    What r u smoking?
    The ones derived from the An-12 are the Y-8 and the Y-9, the Y-20 is more like inspired to the American C‐17, and has a wider cargo area compared to the Il-76.
    Chinese Y-20 will be a worthy replacement for IL-76
    https://topwar.ru/160028-sohu-kitajskij-y-20-stanet-dostojnoj-zamenoj-il-76.html

    They could even order some fuselage sections in PRC & bring them with An-124s to Aviastar & make wider IL-476s. There's no urgent need to replace the An-22s.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:25 pm

    Why do you always suggest that Russia should buy Chinese  copies of Antonov airplanes?

    To produce it they should buy all the documentation from the Chineses  and start an independent production and assembly. It would be  complicated and it would make them dependent on the Chineses (as before they were dependent on antonov), at least for a few years in the beginning.

    Btw, as far as I know the il-76 is capable of carrying Russian tanks. If they need to build something bigger, it would be better if they concentrate the resources on a modernised An-124 with Russian name, provided they will have proper engines in time.

    For something  in the middle... they could revamp the original il-106 project (not the one announced last year, since it is a much larger aircraft... so, I mean a size between an il-76 and a An-124), and put temporarily 4 PS-90A1 engines (17.6 tons of thrust each), until a more modern and larger engine is available.

    However, I am not sure it is a priority. Next year they will finally have a large production  capability (18 aircrafts per year) for the il-76 at aviastar in ulyanovsk, and the same plant should be also involved in the an-124 modersation/ replacement...

    Maybe something could be set up at Aviakor in Samara, but it will take money  and time, and they do not have yet a project ready
    It is possible that in the future they will substitute the il-76 with both something bigger like the il106 and something smaller like an improved derivative of the an70 (as it was actually planned in the 1990s), but since they now spent a lot of money  for restarting its production, I believe that could only happen after a production run for at least 150 new il-76


    Last edited by Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:44 pm

    Why do you always suggest that Russia should buy Chinese copies of Antonov airplanes?
    because China produces types of planes that Russia needs but doesn't produce with the loss of Antonov.
    For something in the middle... they could revamp the original il-106 project (not the one announced last year, since it is a much larger aircraft... so, I mean a size between an il-76 and a An-124), and put temporarily 4 PS-90A1 engines (17.6 tons of thrust each), until a more modern and larger engine is available.
    or a smaller variant of the An-124 could be built instead of the IL-106.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:54 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Why do you always suggest that Russia should buy Chinese copies of Antonov airplanes?
    because China produces types of planes that Russia needs but doesn't produce with the loss of Antonov.


    They are developing and they are going to produce modern russian designs to replace Soviet era planes. In the meanwhile, they still have Soviet airplanes for another few years.

    If it was Russian design, yes the Y-20 with 4 PS-90A1 engines would probably be able to carry around 70/75 tons of payload, and take some of the missions flown by Ruslans.
    It is however a foreign plane, and it is not better than what the il‐106 would have been if it had not  been cancelled in the 90s.

    At the moment the y-20 is only a foreign replacement for the il76 with a wider cargo hold and weaker engines.
    The Chineses had many years to develop it, and apparently, after poor results, it was redesigned by Antonov engineers.

    Anyway, if you  want good results you cannot just take the fuselage from an aircraft and attack it to another one.

    Furthermore, it would be a bad publicity for the russian aircraft industry to licence produce chinese aircrafts. If they were in a war and they absolutely needed aircrafts now, I could understand, otherwise better concentrate on its own  product.

    I would rather import in Russia the Ukrainian aircraft and engine engineers currently working for China to increase the capable workforce. After all, they should  prefer living in a similar culture than in a place foreign in costumes and language far away from  home  (China) or than in a place were all the industries  are being dismantled (Ukraine).

    Of course, avoiding the anti Russian crazies that  could be infiltrated to sabotage the russian industry...



    For something in the middle... they could revamp the original il-106 project (not the one announced last year, since it is a much larger aircraft... so, I mean a size between an il-76 and a An-124), and put temporarily 4 PS-90A1 engines (17.6 tons of thrust each), until a more modern and larger engine is available.
    or a smaller variant of the An-124 could be built instead of the IL-106.

    Scaling down an aircraft is not that easy. It can be a starting point for the design, allowing to save some time, but it would require anyway  several years of work (more than revamping the original il-106 design and much more than modernising the an-124 in its current scale.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:37 pm

    Scaling down an aircraft is not that easy.
    True. But it's easier than designing, building & testing 100% new cargo transports. That's why they r working on the IL-276 which is in many respects is a scaled down twin engine version of the IL-76.
    The B-747SP is a shortened variant of base B-747, & is a good case in point:
    An-124 Strategic Transport: News - Page 9 B942b6455c34046cbfad330cf12ae8b4
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747SP

    The Airbus saved $Ms with its shortened & lengthened families of planes:
    An-124 Strategic Transport: News - Page 9 BkBghWTCUAETVF3
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:18 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Scaling down an aircraft is not that easy.
    True. But it's easier than designing, building & testing 100% new cargo transports. That's why they r working on the IL-276 which is in many respects is a scaled down twin engine version of the IL-76.
    The B-747SP is a shortened variant of base B-747, & is a good case in point:
    An-124 Strategic Transport: News - Page 9 B942b6455c34046cbfad330cf12ae8b4
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747SP

    The Airbus saved $Ms with its shortened & lengthened families of planes:
    An-124 Strategic Transport: News - Page 9 BkBghWTCUAETVF3

    Making a shortened or lengthened version is much easier than scaling.
    On your example, one thing is to make a stretched version of the a330, totally another thing is doing an a380, that while maintaining some typical airbus look, it is a totally different aircraft.

    Russia is doing the same thing with the MC-21. They will first certify and sell the base version, the MC-21-300. Later the shortened MC-21-200 and the stretched MC-21-400 will follow and will have a much simplified certification process.

    If, however, Russia would like to scale it up and derive a widebody from it to replace the il-96, they will have to start almost from scratches both the design and the certification process (of course they will save some time because they have a starting point).
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:43 pm

    Making a shortened or lengthened version is much easier than scaling.
    but, isn't scaling down easier than scaling up? besides, the could retain the cabin width of the An-124:
    The floor width and height of aircraft is 21ft (6.4m) and 14.4ft (4.3m) respectively https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/an124/

    It's only 0.4m wider 0.6m taller than the original IL-106 design:
    Cabin Width: 6 m  Cabin height: 4.6 m
    Sources:
    The Osprey Encyclopedia of Russian Aircraft, Bill Gunston
    Brassey's World Aircraft & Systems Directory 1996-1997
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:27 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Making a shortened or lengthened version is much easier than scaling.
    but, isn't scaling down easier than scaling up? besides, the could retain the cabin width of the An-124:
    The floor width and height of aircraft is 21ft (6.4m) and 14.4ft (4.3m) respectively https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/an124/

    It's only 0.4m wider 0.6m taller than the original IL-106 design:
    Cabin Width: 6 m  Cabin height: 4.6 m
    Sources:
    The Osprey Encyclopedia of Russian Aircraft, Bill Gunston
    Brassey's World Aircraft & Systems Directory 1996-1997

    Not necessarily it is easier. And besides not all component scale (up or down) in the same way. So you after the scaling you may end up having some parts oversized (and then too heavy) or instead not strong enough.

    Ok, they could do a shortened An-124, but at what scope?

    We do not know yet the needs of the Russian air force
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:50 am

    Ok, they could do a shortened An-124, but at what scope?
    to ~57.6 м, the proposed length of the IL-106, something between it & the IL-76:
    An-124 Strategic Transport: News - Page 9 Sravnenie-samoletov-il-106-i-an-124
    https://naukatehnika.com/sverhtyazhi-il-106-zamena-ruslanu.html

    Length: 69.1 m (226 ft 8 in)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-124_Ruslan#Specifications_(An-124-100M)

    Length: 46.59 m (152 ft 10 in)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76#Specifications_(Il-76TD-90)

    We do not know yet the needs of the Russian air force

    even if the VKS knows them, they may exaggerate to get at least the bare minimum of what they think is needed. They needed the An-70s but were forced to use the IL-76s. So, wanting something doesn't always result in getting it.
    From the Tao Te Ching  道德经 (The Way & its Power): those who know don't speak [write]; those who speak [write] don't know.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:43 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:...From the Tao Te Ching 道德经 (The Way & its Power): those who know don't speak [write]; those who speak [write] don't know.


    From the PapaDragon TaтaЗмај (The Chincoms & Their Crap): those who buy sh*tty Chinese knockoffs get stuck with sh*tty products

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:01 am

    Well, their type 001 CV is already better than the Adm.K; Pakistan & Kazakhstan got Y-8/9s which r better than the An-12s. The H-6Ks r better than the Tu-16s.
    Not all of their goods r of low quality.
    Pl. post the readers' reviews, if any exist, of TaтaЗмај (The Chincoms & Their Crap).
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:26 am

    What r u smoking?

    Not really interested in Chinese aircraft so I am not up to date as to which aircraft it is a copy of.

    Chinese Y-20 will be a worthy replacement for IL-76

    Surely you wait another two or three years so they can produce more Il-476 before you replace something with a foreign untested aircraft you had no hand in the design of?

    Or they could just keep making Il-476s and Il-276s...

    They could even order some fuselage sections in PRC & bring them with An-124s to Aviastar & make wider IL-476s. There's no urgent need to replace the An-22s.

    Correction, they are currently replacing the Il-76 with the Il-476 so there is no need for the Y-20.

    The jobs previously done by the An-22 are currently done by the An-124, which is a much bigger aircraft, so replacing the An-22 is rather more urgent than replacing the Il-76 which already has its replacement in production.

    However, I am not sure it is a priority. Next year they will finally have a large production capability (18 aircrafts per year) for the il-76 at aviastar in ulyanovsk, and the same plant should be also involved in the an-124 modersation/ replacement...

    Which is much much faster than they could have any chance of getting any Chinese aircraft into production let alone even just sign a deal.

    It is possible that in the future they will substitute the il-76 with both something bigger like the il106 and something smaller like an improved derivative of the an70 (as it was actually planned in the 1990s), but since they now spent a lot of money for restarting its production, I believe that could only happen after a production run for at least 150 new il-76

    The An-70 is dead for Russia... if the VDV need a slower aircraft then propfan powered Il-476 would be the most obvious choice...

    because China produces types of planes that Russia needs but doesn't produce with the loss of Antonov.

    Russia designs and builds its own aircraft and doesn't need Chinese designs to fill gaps.

    When you make your own planes... why ever buy any from anyone else... it simply does not make any sense.

    or a smaller variant of the An-124 could be built instead of the IL-106.

    The Il-106 is a smaller aircraft than the An-124.

    Ok, they could do a shortened An-124, but at what scope?

    WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO SHORTEN THE AN-124... THEY ARE DEVELOPING THE IL-106 AND SLON AIRCRAFT SO THEY CAN REMOVE AN-22 and AN-124S FROM RUSSIAN SERVICE... ADDING MORE AN-124 TYPES IN SERVICE IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO.

    It is pretty simple... the An-26 and An-12, and An-70 and An-22 and An-124 are all going to be replaced in Russian service by Russian aircraft... not Chinese, and not Bolivian and not Fijian, Russian. That means Ilyusion and Tupolev have some work to do.

    Well, their type 001 CV is already better than the Adm.K

    What type of hypersonic anti ship missile will type 001 CVs be carrying in 2025?

    Pakistan & Kazakhstan got Y-8/9s which r better than the An-12s.

    An-12s are Soviet, not Russian.

    The H-6Ks r better than the Tu-16s.

    Tu-16s are ancient Soviet aircraft, how do those H-6Ks compare with Tu-22M3Ms or Tu-160M2s or even Tu-95SM16s?

    I agree not all Chinese stuff is junk... it is generally good enough and if it isn't then pay more than a dollar for it you cheap bastard... what the hell did you expect...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:00 pm

    Not really interested in Chinese aircraft so I am not up to date as to which aircraft it is a copy of.
    they r not exact copies anymore, but deeply modernized Chinese produced planes.
    Surely you wait another two or three years so they can produce more Il-476 before you replace something with a foreign untested aircraft you had no hand in the design of? Correction, they are currently replacing the Il-76 with the Il-476 so there is no need for the Y-20.
    that production run will not be stopped, but could be adjusted to make wider cabins. I didn't suggest they import Y-20s, but they been tested & will be more capable with more powerful engines that Russia already has on IL-476s.
    The jobs previously done by the An-22 are currently done by the An-124, which is a much bigger aircraft,..
    the An-22s r still in service & do their job- otherwise they would've put all of them in storage & museums a long time ago. They could use more of them if they had them; otherwise, why still mull developing the IL-106?
    Which is much much faster than they could have any chance of getting any Chinese aircraft into production let alone even just sign a deal.
    fuselage sections r not the whole aircraft!
    Russia designs and builds its own aircraft and doesn't need Chinese designs to fill gaps.
    they r not entirely Chinese designs: Antonov people helped them & the An-70 (co-developed with Russia) influence is visible on the Y-20.
    When you make your own planes... why ever buy any from anyone else... it simply does not make any sense.
    sometimes it does: the C-27Js r operated by the US military & the CG, & US-made C-130Js r operated by French & Germans, despite their A-400M production:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alenia_C-27J_Spartan#Operators
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_C-130J_Super_Hercules#Operators
    The Il-106 is a smaller aircraft than the An-124.
    It doesn't exist yet, but the An-124 does.
    WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO SHORTEN THE AN-124... THEY ARE DEVELOPING THE IL-106 AND SLON AIRCRAFT SO THEY CAN REMOVE AN-22 and AN-124S FROM RUSSIAN SERVICE..
    THE IL-106 AND SLON may take longer to appear, for all I know, in the meantime they r basically repeating the IL-476 saga with the An-124.
    What type of hypersonic anti ship missile will type 001 CVs be carrying in 2025?
    they'll operate within the range of their AShBMs; their warheads r supersonic.
    An-12s are Soviet, not Russian.
    the USSR was a Russian Empire under a different name. Read their hymn lyrics:
    English translation (of the 1977 version)
    Unbreakable Union of freeborn Republics,
    Great Russia has welded forever to stand
    .
    Created in struggle by will of the people,
    United and mighty, our Soviet land!

    https://www.marxists.org/history/ussr/sounds/lyrics/anthem.htm

    Antonov aircraft manufacturer moved to Kiev in 1952; Its headquarters and main industrial grounds were originally located in Novosibirsk, in the RSFR.
    https://carnegie.ru/commentary/75944
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov

    It was moved there to be in a better climate, help the local economy & be closer to other enterprises.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:47 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add text, links)
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:52 am


    Tsavo Lion wrote:...the USSR was a Russian Empire under a different name

    USSR was a communist parasite that was feeding off the corpse of Russia and whose purpose was to erase anything even remotely Russian from existence and feed other non-russian parasitic entities

    Only reason Russia exists today is pure luck

    Good riddance to bad trash

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:59 am

    ur Serbia & entire Yugoslavia would be drowned in blood for  lot longer had not the USSR defeated the Nazis!
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:40 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:ur Serbia & entire Yugoslavia would be drowned in blood for  lot longer had not the USSR defeated the Nazis!

    They wouldn't need to bother had they stuck with being Russia and skipped USSR phase

    They would be running the continent instead of starving for better part of century

    Commies don't get to eat nor do they get to win in the end

    But hey, at least Russia funded all that chaff called Ex-Soviet republics at it's own expense and nearly bled itself to death like a gutted pig so it's all great, right?

    Because USSR was always looking after Russia's best interest... lol1
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:01 am

    They wouldn't need to bother had they stuck with being Russia and skipped USSR phase
    The West, esp. the Anglo-Saxons, always regarded Russia as a rival, regardless of its ideology. That's why they didn't allow her to join NATO in the 90s.
    But hey, at least Russia funded all that chaff called Ex-Soviet republics at it's own expense and nearly bled itself to death like a gutted pig so it's all great, right?
    they recovered thanks to all that wealth under their feet- now every ethnic Russian/Russian speaker in those Ex-Soviet republics can/will soon be able to get a RF passport & even if he stays there, it's a huge 5th column that will make the local powers that be think twice before hurting Russia in any way, shape or form.
    That's where history is influenced by geography:





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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:52 am

    they r not exact copies anymore, but deeply modernized Chinese produced planes.

    Still not familiar with Chinese types or designations.

    that production run will not be stopped, but could be adjusted to make wider cabins.

    Why?

    Making them wider increases drag and will reduce range. If there were specific reasons to do so then it would make sense but you have not offered any.

    Matching what other countries are doing makes no sense because other countries have different vehicles needing transport so they will have different needs... which means nothing to Russia.

    I didn't suggest they import Y-20s, but they been tested & will be more capable with more powerful engines that Russia already has on IL-476s.

    Being wider they will need more powerful engines and burn more fuel to do the same job.

    Eventually the Il-476 will likely get PD-18s which should be pretty much idea for their intended role.

    the An-22s r still in service & do their job- otherwise they would've put all of them in storage & museums a long time ago.

    They have been reducing the number in service all this time... they are useful, but not irreplaceable... the An-124 over the short term is the obvious replacement, but has the same fundamental flaw of the An-22... the An in its designation, so while for the short term the An-124s can be used to perform the roles the An-22s performed, they need a replacement for both aircraft... and those replacements are the Il-106 and the Slon family of aircraft. They will have 4-5 years gap before their new engines are ready so there is no urgency in getting these new planes into production... the An-124s can continue doing what they are doing till their final replacements are ready to replace them.

    They could use more of them if they had them; otherwise, why still mull developing the IL-106?

    It is not worth upgrading An-22s as they are slated for replacement. Upgrades to the An-124 make sense as their replacements are likely further off and they are completely made in Russia except for their engines anyway... unlike the An-22 which is made in Uzbekistan or was about 45 years ago.

    they r not entirely Chinese designs: Antonov people helped them & the An-70 (co-developed with Russia) influence is visible on the Y-20.

    So they are part Chinese and part Ukrainian... that does not really help considering the purpose is to remove Ukrainian and Uzbekistani aircraft from Russian service...

    sometimes it does

    Sometimes it might, but when the process of introducing new aircraft to replace existing types previously produced together with a now hostile neighbour it makes no sense to rush to buy aircraft part designed by said hostile neighbour and a non hostile neighbour before a suitable new engine is even ready... that aircraft you suggest would only be suitable with the new engines the Russian designed aircraft are waiting on so there is no value polluting the view with alternatives if they will be no quicker than existing pre planned Russian options.

    It doesn't exist yet, but the An-124 does.

    The An-124 is to be replaced... there is no value in designing versions of it because they will need to be replaced too... ie wasting money on stopgap designs that might have their own problems... and again the AN-124 uses Ukrainian engines... what will this modified An-124 use? ...if you say new Russian engines then you get the same delay you had with the new Russian designs but with a Soviet plane that needs to be replaced anyway...

    THE IL-106 AND SLON may take longer to appear, for all I know, in the meantime they r basically repeating the IL-476 saga with the An-124.

    They might take longer than expected but that will still be rather quicker than trying to copy a Orc/Chinese plane that doesn't even have an engine at the moment that is worth looking at for Russian service.

    they'll operate within the range of their AShBMs; their warheads r supersonic.

    Their supersonic warheads are based on Soviet and Russian missiles...

    the USSR was a Russian Empire under a different name. Read their hymn lyrics

    The Soviet Union is Russia like Wales is English.


    It was moved there to be in a better climate, help the local economy & be closer to other enterprises.

    It was moved to provide jobs in the region to spread technology and development... something they will benefit enormously from not having to do any more for such ungrateful parasites.

    Now the Ukraine and Baltic states can cry and demand a nipple from the EU and US to help them...

    Good riddance to bad trash

    X2 Russia is much better off without those ungrateful countries.

    ur Serbia & entire Yugoslavia would be drowned in blood for lot longer had not the USSR defeated the Nazis!

    Yeah, I keep getting told I would be speaking Japanese if it wasn't for the mighty US forces saving my ass... except they didn't... they didn't really lift a finger until their interests were effected, America saved its own ass and ours was saved at the same time by accident.

    For Europe it was Hitlers decision to attack the Soviets that resulted in his death and defeat, the Soviets didn't fight the Germans to save Yugoslavia or anyone but themselves, but it seems europe has even forgotten that.

    Who cares what they think anyway... it is their job to talk down the enemy and talk up the new suppliers of milk direct from the nipple...

    The West, esp. the Anglo-Saxons, always regarded Russia as a rival, regardless of its ideology. That's why they didn't allow her to join NATO in the 90s.

    Being a British colony New Zealand has a long history of fear of the Russians... before communism was even a thing.

    Many major ports in New Zealand had guns built to defend them from invasion and they were built two centuries ago in the 1800s before the Soviet Union was even an idea... they were to stop the Russians from coming... back when they would be the Russians... fine Russians like Thaddeus Von Bellingshausen... I think he would now be called Estonian or something, but then he was Russian. At a time when ships from Europe sailed to America and lost several hundred people on the trip because of vitamin C deficiency Thaddeus sailed around the world without losing a single sailor.... what a barbarian he must have been...

    Ex-Soviet republics can/will soon be able to get a RF passport & even if he stays there, it's a huge 5th column that will make the local powers that be think twice before hurting Russia in any way, shape or form.

    More like it will give them a list of who needs to be oppressed... what can Russia do about it? A Russian just got arrested in Italy on a US court order... what can Russia do about it except adopt the same pathetic policy... or perhaps just arrest people at random as hostages... where will that end?

    More importantly why would the US care... when their spies get caught they can just make up some charges against some Russian in their country and arrest them and ask for a swap.... a real spy for a gun nut that used to love the US and their gun laws but now probably thinks differently about the place.

    That's where history is influenced by geography:

    That is why a proper navy with aircraft carriers is important to Russia so it can expand trade beyond its borders... there are plenty of countries around the world that would love to trade with a country with modern technology and resources that does not demand they change their laws or adopt someone elses moral code just to trade with them like the west does.



    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:33 am

    The il-76 does not need more powerful engines. The il-476 uses a derated version of the PS-90 with about 14.5 tons of thrust (basically the same as the basic PD-14).
    PS-90 exists also in the 16tons and 17.6 tons rating.

    Maybe in the future they could offer an upgrade with more fuel efficient PD-14, but they do not need more power (unless they had to radically modify the aircraft)

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:43 am

    Making them wider increases drag and will reduce range. If there were specific reasons to do so then it would make sense but you have not offered any. ..Being wider they will need more powerful engines and burn more fuel to do the same job.
    Eventually the Il-476 will likely get PD-18s which should be pretty much idea for their intended role.
    why can't they use the IL-476 PS-90 engines? The IL-106 (which earlier was supposed to replace the IL-76) design has wider fuselage than the IL-476.
    ..unlike the An-22 which is made in Uzbekistan or was about 45 years ago.
    All IL-76/8s were made there too, but now they r making IL-476/8s in Russia, so this not a valid excuse.
    So they are part Chinese and part Ukrainian...
    and  part Russian- the AN-70 was a joint project that Y-20 benefited from.
    ..the AN-124 uses Ukrainian engines... what will this modified An-124 use?
    the same they r now using- take off the planes in storage &/ overhaul/modify them if needed, until new engines r produced.
    Their supersonic warheads are based on Soviet and Russian missiles...
    so what, they had to start somewhere!
    The Soviet Union is Russia like Wales is English.
    w/o Russia proper, it wouldn't have existed, just like the Byzantium w/o Greece & Asia Minor. Moscow was declared a "3rd Rome" after Constantinople fell a few centuries before.
    the Soviets didn't fight the Germans to save Yugoslavia or anyone but themselves,..
    & defend their interests by creating buffer zones to make the next invasion from the West more costly & be able to defend Moscow better. If they were not battling the Red Army on the Eastern front, most of those German divisions would otherwise be sent to Yugoslavia to fight Tito's partisans.
    Being a British colony New Zealand has a long history of fear of the Russians... before communism was even a thing.
    the Russians had colonies in Alaska, Hawaii, & California. Alaska was unsustainable & sold as there was real fear of losing it anyway to the Brits.
    More like it will give them a list of who needs to be oppressed... what can Russia do about it?
    In Transnistria, we granted Russian citizenship to 120,000 people. Yet, Ukrainian and Moldovan citizens outnumber Russian citizens there. It was the beginning of the 1990s, and it was Yeltsin who sent Russian troops there. http://www.pravdareport.com/world/142719-ukraine/

    They can also be stifled by Russia economically, from the Baltic (lost transit in their ports) to the Caspian & C. Asia (North-South corridor, BRI) & Black Seas (sanctions on Ukraine)- the times have changed!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:50 am

    The il-76 does not need more powerful engines. The il-476 uses a derated version of the PS-90 with about 14.5 tons of thrust (basically the same as the basic PD-14).
    PS-90 exists also in the 16tons and 17.6 tons rating.

    Maybe in the future they could offer an upgrade with more fuel efficient PD-14, but they do not need more power (unless they had to radically modify the aircraft)


    Well I agree to a point... the original Il-76 did less powerful engines... in fact according to my book, the D-30KP engine rated at 12 tons thrust with a payload capacity of 47 tons. The newer models that got rather heavier also got more powerful engines too, the current model having 16 ton thrust engines for a MTOW of 210 tons and a payload of 60 tons.

    I would suggest the Il-476 has the 16 ton thrust engines and the older models have the 14 ton thrust model PS-90.

    A further improved model Il-476 could possibly use a higher thrust engine like a PD-18 for extra fuel weight perhaps, but I think the PD-16 is probably the best choice for the Il-476... unless they want to expand its weight limits.

    If they are going to expand the role of the Il-106 to be larger and more like a light An-124 then it probably would do well with PD-24 engines and if Slon is going to be slightly bigger and heavier than the An-124 then PD-35s might be the best choice there too... especially if they want to make them both wider and able to carry more bulky payloads.

    why can't they use the IL-476 PS-90 engines?

    Because the PD range of new engines will be new and offer state of the art performance in terms of power and fuel efficiency as well as reliability and cost effectiveness... the modular range will be scaled from the tiny to the enormous in terms of power to meet a wide range of requirements with a unified design.

    The IL-106 (which earlier was supposed to replace the IL-76) design has wider fuselage than the IL-476.

    The fact that it was designed but not progressed with suggests the wider fuselage was redundant. It might have been important for foreign customers, but the Russian military clearly didn't want to pay extra for something they didn't need.

    All IL-76/8s were made there too, but now they r making IL-476/8s in Russia, so this not a valid excuse.

    They were also made in Russia, which the An-22s were not. By a Russian company, which the An-22 is not.

    and part Russian- the AN-70 was a joint project that Y-20 benefited from.

    Russia had no say in the design process of the Y-20, so it probably isn't going to optimally fit their needs like something they have had input into at every step of the design stage like the Il-106 or Slon or Il-476 or Il-276 or Tu-330...

    the same they r now using- take off the planes in storage &/ overhaul/modify them if needed, until new engines r produced.

    They are already doing that, so making a new shortened An-124 would just use up those limit engines faster and create more problems than it solves.

    so what, they had to start somewhere!

    Indeed they did, but until they actually get tested in combat it is hard to place them in the performance scale of world Navies... and I appreciate it sound condescending... I hear the same all the time from the US Fanbois that these supersonic Soviet weapons are fine on paper but in practise they will crash and be chaotic and ineffective, but I think the Russians have plenty of experience facing off the US Navy and have a much better measure of the USN than the Chinese do.

    Before the Russians did what they did in Syria I would not have believed they could have done such a thing so efficiently... in fact both cheaper and more effectively than the US does it even today... and the US has had the most practise at this stuff...

    w/o Russia proper, it wouldn't have existed, just like the Byzantium w/o Greece & Asia Minor. Moscow was declared a "3rd Rome" after Constantinople fell a few centuries before.

    Yeah, doesn't change anything... Russia means Russia and the Soviet Union is Russia plus other countries... just like England is not Britain even if you could argue it is the driving force... or that Brazil and Peru are states in America, but are not US States.... though the US thinks they are.

    & defend their interests by creating buffer zones to make the next invasion from the West more costly & be able to defend Moscow better. If they were not battling the Red Army on the Eastern front, most of those German divisions would otherwise be sent to Yugoslavia to fight Tito's partisans.

    Unintended byproduct... the soviets were not in any position to do anything but fight for their survival... negotiations at Yalta deciding who was in whose camp... where all these peace loving democracies like Poland and Hungary got screwed by the people they are currently lovingly sucking up to was pretty much after the results of the war had already been decided.

    In Transnistria, we granted Russian citizenship to 120,000 people. Yet, Ukrainian and Moldovan citizens outnumber Russian citizens there. It was the beginning of the 1990s, and it was Yeltsin who sent Russian troops there

    That was a time when the west thought it had won and Russia was gone for good, and the Ukraine was not that hostile to Russia... Russia can't access the region without crossing Ukrainian territory.

    They can also be stifled by Russia economically, from the Baltic (lost transit in their ports) to the Caspian & C. Asia (North-South corridor, BRI) & Black Seas (sanctions on Ukraine)- the times have changed!

    Yeah, I think you will find those areas and regions cut ties to Russia first, not realising that Russia might respond by using alternative Russian ports to move goods instead of their traditional use of ports to support good will with these ingrates.

    The CFE treaty was not signed by the west because Russia had troops in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and Transnistria... Russia had signed and ratified it but was only one of the few being bound by it because most of the west had refused to sign in protest because of Russian peacekeepers in those regions... well that agreement is dead now so good riddance to bullshit anyway.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:59 pm

    The fact that it was designed but not progressed with suggests the wider fuselage was redundant. It might have been important for foreign customers, but the Russian military clearly didn't want to pay extra for something they didn't need.
    If the USSR didn't implode, that plane would be flying now.
    They were also made in Russia, which the An-22s were not.
    Their own IL-76/86/96s r also "widebody"; if they could produce & upgrade the An-124s, then the An-22s could also be produced.
    Russia had no say in the design process of the Y-20, so it probably isn't going to optimally fit their needs..
    Fuselage sections could be modified for their requirements. Still cheaper/faster than importing & modifying whole planes. If the Indians & Chinese were satisfied &/ could wait, they wouldn't be overpaying for those 11 C-17s, wouldn't need those Y-20s & could just order more IL-476s, respectively.
    They are already doing that, so making a new shortened An-124 would just use up those limit engines faster and create more problems than it solves.
    they don't need to make many of them, if the goal is to replace 5 active An-22s still in service:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-22#Current
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Russian_military_aircraft#Russian_Air_Force

    That's only 20 engines- I'm sure they have a lot more available at any given time. They had 14 An-124s in reserve- that's 56 engines.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-124_Ruslan#Military

    Even if there r now 10 in storage, that's 40 engines- enough to replace all 5 An-22s & have a pool of 20 extra engines.
    The latest: Since 2004, Aviastar-SP JSC continues the modernization of the Ruslanov fleet in operation. Based on the results of additional tests and design and research work, the Ruslan design life was set at 50,000 flight hours, 10,000 flights and 45 calendar years.
    An-124-100 "Ruslan" transferred to VTA
    Russia means Russia and the Soviet Union is Russia plus other countries...
    Most of what is now Belarus & Ukraine was part of Kievan Rus & later Russia proper, until after their Civil War. The Baltics r not united except in their misery, & their NATO membership done them more harm than good. Georgia & Armenia would be history w/o the Russian Empire protection, & their economies been in the gutter since 1991. Kazakhstan still has large ethnic Russian community, & many Kazakhs r of mixed blood & russified, esp. in the Northern part. Other present-day Stans would've been taken over by China &/ the British, & their economies hugely dependent on Russia. So all those "countries" r failed states &/ time bombs - their borders don't reflect the ethnographic situation on the ground as far as the Slavic population is concerned.
    Russia can't access the region without crossing Ukrainian territory.
    they can sent planes there full of soldiers escorted by fighters in the narrow no-fly zone set up for that purpose. Or taking Odessa will allow overland troop movement & supply. But even if not, just concentrating a few more divisions North of the border near Kiev & Kharkov would be enough to convince them to leave the Russians in Ukraine alone! Around 13K already lost their lives in Donbass on both sides. Ukraine's population now is ~30M- 10M left to work & live abroad, about 3-4M, if not more, r now in Russia. More will leave later, regardless of their current citizenship status & Russia will have easier time managing the integration process, esp. with many of its citizens already in place. The new dual  citizens may keep their Russian citizenship a secret to Ukrainian hunta. Unless Kiev finds out,  they'll keep their Ukrainian passports till they r totally useless.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:25 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : add text)
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:21 pm

    If the USSR didn't implode, that plane would be flying now.

    Probably not, if the USSR didn't implode the replacement plane for the An-22 would be a job for Antonov, and the An-124 would be good for another few decades yet with engine improvements no doubt...

    Their own IL-76/86/96s r also "widebody"; if they could produce & upgrade the An-124s, then the An-22s could also be produced.

    Making an existing design wider is not as easy as it sounds but it is easier than making a plane you have never made before and modifying that design with new engines too... and for goodness sake they don't want to make more An-22s they want to get rid of them...

    Fuselage sections could be modified for their requirements. Still cheaper/faster than importing & modifying whole planes. If the Indians & Chinese were satisfied &/ could wait, they wouldn't be overpaying for those 11 C-17s, wouldn't need those Y-20s & could just order more IL-476s, respectively.

    Part of over paying for US products is buying influence... if they wanted anything urgently they could put in an order for 200 Il-476s which would pay for several new factories to start making them in large numbers that could then solve their problem... but then they would probably spend the next ten years negotiating the price down a dozen rupees or so just to get the best deal...

    they don't need to make many of them, if the goal is to replace 5 active An-22s still in service:

    The fact is that they don't need to make any of them... for a few years they can pay slightly more to move the cargoes in An-124s instead.

    In a few years when new engines are ready they can save money on transport costs... until then if they can afford to move it they can move it... if it is not worth moving it by plane then send it by rail or ship... it is not rocket science.

    That's only 20 engines- I'm sure they have a lot more available at any given time. They had 14 An-124s in reserve- that's 56 engines.

    They have aircraft in reserve, so they have engines not getting worn out or used that are available if needed. Making some half assed new design that they might use for 5 years and then not use any more makes no sense.

    Even if there r now 10 in storage, that's 40 engines- enough to replace all 5 An-22s & have a pool of 20 extra engines.

    They have An-124s in storage... if they need transport capacity to deal with the An-22s being withdrawn they don't need to modify anything, they can just use already in service An-124s to do the jobs as and when needed. If they have problems they can bring an An-124 or two out of storage to cope with the extra work... they don't need to modify anything or create any hybrids.

    Most of what is now Belarus & Ukraine was part of Kievan Rus & later Russia proper, until after their Civil War.

    No argument from me. But currently they don't identify as Russian so they aren't.

    Americans don't identify as European except in a police line up or on a census... they are called Caucasians yet I suspect none of them have ever been.

    The Baltics r not united except in their misery, & their NATO membership done them more harm than good. Georgia & Armenia would be history w/o the Russian Empire protection, & their economies been in the gutter since 1991. Kazakhstan still has large ethnic Russian community, & many Kazakhs r of mixed blood & russified, esp. in the Northern part. Other present-day Stans would've been taken over by China &/ the British, & their economies hugely dependent on Russia. So all those "countries" r failed states &/ time bombs - their borders don't reflect the ethnographic situation on the ground as far as the Slavic population is concerned.

    Much like the rest of the world the leadership of these countries reflects an agenda, which tends to be a pro west anti Russia agenda... very similar to that of governments across europe, which does not of course necessarily reflect the views of the general public, but what does the views of the average person have to do with government in a democracy... the average person can't even afford a decent bribe and all they get is one vote... why would a western politician bother listening to them?

    they can sent planes there full of soldiers escorted by fighters in the narrow no-fly zone set up for that purpose. Or taking Odessa will allow overland troop movement & supply. But even if not, just concentrating a few more divisions North of the border near Kiev & Kharkov would be enough to convince them to leave the Russians in Ukraine alone! Around 13K already lost their lives in Donbass on both sides. Ukraine's population now is ~30M- 10M left to work & live abroad, about 3-4M, if not more, r now in Russia. More will leave later, regardless of their current citizenship status & Russia will have easier time managing the integration process, esp. with many of its citizens already in place. The new dual citizens may keep their Russian citizenship a secret to Ukrainian hunta. Unless Kiev finds out, they'll keep their Ukrainian passports till they r totally useless.

    Only the Ukraine can fix Ukraines problems... and while this prisoner exchange is a start, there is a hell of a long way to go to get to normal.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:44 pm

    Probably not, if the USSR didn't implode the replacement plane for the An-22 would be a job for Antonov,...
    It would've replaced the IL-76s; the IL-476 is a necessary measure to plug that gap.
    if they wanted anything urgently they could put in an order for 200 Il-476s which would pay for several new factories to start making them in large numbers that could then solve their problem...
    they ordered those C-17s before the 1st IL-476 wasn't even built & tested; that still would take a long time & Indians didn't want to wait.
    The fact is that they don't need to make any of them... for a few years they can pay slightly more to move the cargoes in An-124s instead.
    then, the IL-106 also isn't needed for another decade or more, esp. since more IL-476/8s r inducted.
    Making some half assed new design that they might use for 5 years and then not use any more makes no sense.
    they would be used a lot longer- if only to preserve better planes by reducing their wear & tear.
    They have An-124s in storage...
    I saw their pics being parked in the open-most of them r probably not worthy to return to flight status & r being used for parts to keep the other An-124s flying.
    No argument from me. But currently they don't identify as Russian so they aren't.
    the ethnic Russian population ID themselves as Russian, & many have close relatives & graves in the RF. 1991 is only 1-2 generations away in the past.
    Only the Ukraine can fix Ukraines problems...
    no, Ukraine is the problem- w/o it, all the problems it created will disappear. On their own, they won't fix them.

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