Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1049
    Points : 1090
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  dino00 on Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:21 pm

    The expert proposed to re-equip the submarine type "Shark" from ballistic missiles to cruise

    Project 941 Arkhangelsk and Severstal submarines could carry up to 200 Caliber, Onyx and Zircon missiles instead of being dismantled.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6237778
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 13949
    Points : 14446
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:45 pm

    dino00 wrote:The expert proposed to re-equip the submarine type "Shark" from ballistic missiles to cruise

    Project 941 Arkhangelsk and Severstal submarines could carry up to 200 Caliber, Onyx and Zircon missiles instead of being dismantled.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6237778

    i dont think that this will ever happen. We read it as proposal from the start of this decade and we havent any kind of that upgrade till now. I consider that Navy just keep these subs as a matter of "prestige" since they are the biggest nuclear subs ever built
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 4108
    Points : 4098
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Isos on Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:14 pm

    They are expensive to operate. A delata IV or borei would be better choice.

    But with everything they plan to build they won't lack plateforms for UKSK for sure.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8420
    Points : 8504
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:05 pm

    dino00 wrote:The expert proposed to re-equip the submarine type "Shark" from ballistic missiles to cruise

    Project 941 Arkhangelsk and Severstal submarines could carry up to 200 Caliber, Onyx and Zircon missiles instead of being dismantled.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6237778


    20 years ago it would have made sense but now it's way too much hassle, to say nothing of time and money

    Deltas are much better choice for this: good capacity, low costs, more ships available, trained and experienced crews, well developed maintenance system
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2374
    Points : 2372
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Hole on Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:03 pm

    Even 10 years ago. But now you are right. For the renovation/modernisation of this subs you could build new ones. Purpose build.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5296
    Points : 5449
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:02 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    dino00 wrote:The expert proposed to re-equip the submarine type "Shark" from ballistic missiles to cruise

    Project 941 Arkhangelsk and Severstal submarines could carry up to 200 Caliber, Onyx and Zircon missiles instead of being dismantled.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6237778


    20 years ago it would have made sense but now it's way too much hassle, to say nothing of time and money

    Deltas are much better choice for this: good capacity, low costs, more ships available, trained and experienced crews, well developed maintenance system

    I guess it all depends on the political climate. If the current political stale-mates, meaning its bad but not necessarily worsening, than I agree 100%! However if certain newly-developed 'systems' get deployed to mainland Europe, than maybe a 'middle finger' maybe necessary response.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1652
    Points : 1654
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:32 pm

    Best use for the remaining 941s is to select the best preserved and make her a museum ship. I'd travel to Russia just to see it Very Happy

    russia russia
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22539
    Points : 23083
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:01 am

    Well hang on here.... if they need their propulsion replaced this could be a chance to take them out and test new NPPs being developed for their new big ships... a 25KT sub uses more power to move than a 20KT destroyer/cruiser because it is underwater and has drag on its entire surface...

    A single Akula SSBN might cost more to operate than a Delta, but it could carry rather more weapons than a Delta too... and with new systems it could have more automation and at the same time test new equipment too.

    When it comes to an arsenal sub that could launch a really significant attack, having 200 missiles all ready to launch makes a lot of sense... especially after 2023 when they could be mach 9 Zircon missiles in an anti ship or land attack role...

    Such a big ship means comfort and potentially very long endurance... its operational range was generally limited by how much food it could carry... on the old ship you had to monitor the main missiles, but new systems have built in monitoring systems, so you can greatly reduce crew numbers... and there was plenty of space on board these vessels as there was, and in the 21st C you could put a few LAN suites on board for "war games" or virtual reality to relieve the boredom... they might not want to come home half the time.

    Most of the time they could spend testing new equipment in different corners of the worlds oceans... check accuracy of maps and explore different areas... they could use UUVs to explore too...
    Vladimir79
    Vladimir79

    Posts : 2926
    Points : 3802
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:56 pm

    It is nearly 30 years since the collapse of the СССР. Trying to refurbish any of that equipment is a waste of time and money now. All of it should be planned for retirement with replacements being constructed.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2374
    Points : 2372
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:02 pm

    Arkhangelsk and Severstal are retired. For years now. The russian MoD is just saving the money to dismantle them.
    Vladimir79
    Vladimir79

    Posts : 2926
    Points : 3802
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:26 pm

    Hole wrote:Arkhangelsk and Severstal are retired. For years now. The russian MoD is just saving the money to dismantle them.

    We never had the money to dismantle them. The US paid to do it for a long time in exchange for highly enriched uranium.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8420
    Points : 8504
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:31 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Hole wrote:Arkhangelsk and Severstal are retired. For years now. The russian MoD is just saving the money to dismantle them.

    We never had the money to dismantle them.  The US paid to do it for a long time in exchange for highly enriched uranium.  


    Rip out reactors and convert them to museums

    Tourists would love it
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 4108
    Points : 4098
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:10 pm

    Rip out reactors and convert them to museums

    Tourists would love it

    Doubtfull that tourist would love it. And it will be still expensive.

    Put it on a beach and bomb them with the p-700 granits retired from kirovs, then recycle the raw materials and show us the video so we can enjoy and imagine it is a nimitz carrier  Very Happy
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 3113
    Points : 3111
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:27 pm

    Admiral suggested to equip "Sharks" with hundreds of "Calibres"
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22539
    Points : 23083
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:06 am

    I appreciate what you are saying Vlad, but I think an arsenal type vessel doesn't need to be super modern or super stealthy.... most of the time it is the stand off range of the weapons and their accuracy that is the key... plus of course the number you have to launch at any given time.

    With the Akula class, you could take out the SS-N-20 tubes and much much more and replace it with UKSK-M launch tubes in enormous numbers and design it to operate with the smallest of crews.

    It would be a chance to test one of the new NPP designs they are planning for their new ships, that don't need refuelling for the life of the vessel.

    They are not going to build a new sub anywhere near that size or capacity so it offers a unique opportunity... especially with two because one would be nice but actually having two or three of them would be rather more valuable than just one.

    Even just the propulsion upgrade could be applied to one that could be used as a mothership "research" sub that carries all sorts of special force divers and unmanned underwater vessels etc etc and tests new weapons and the like.

    It would not be cheap, but the result would at the very least be experience that will lead to further development and improvement of new NPPs that will be critical for the future production of larger vessels for the Russian Navy, and more likely some powerful submarines that you can send to different places fairly easily and quickly.

    Imagine two sailing on the surface down the english channel... with a dinky little british ship trying to look big and tough "escorting them".... but also on a more practical level... 200 Zircon missiles...
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1652
    Points : 1654
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:26 am

    While the idea of upgrading the 941s sounds like an uber-expense for which the RuN could find better uses for the cash, on closer inspection it doesn't seem like a nutty idea.

    Consider the 941s internal build:

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 1920px-Typhoon_class_Schema.svg  

    The SLBM tubes lie between the pressure hulls and could be replaced by Yasen-style VLS tubes without modifying much except structural steel and outer hull platings.  Cables from the tubes into the control systems within the pressure hulls will need to be replaced, requiring rework on the water-tight cable transits, and the old electronics racks associated with the SS-N-20 fire controls replaced with new.  

    Changing out missiles will greatly change the COG (as SS-N-20 where HEAVY) , so dummy masses (concrete) would need to be installed otherwise extensive changes would be need to ballasting arrangements.

    My suggestion would be to fabricate a VLS module complete with silos, hatches and hydraulics, structural and cabling/piping, and then lift as a single module into the 941 hull once the hull platings are removed and the SLBM tubes and associated supports/services are cut out.  Weld into place, connect services, then reinstate hull plating.

    How much would all this cost? Ahh... now that is the question. The cost of a full complement of 200x Kalibres, Oniks and Zircons could exceed the cost of the conversion.

    This all depends on TK-17 & 20 being in good condition and requiring only minor repairs/refurb for the rest of the vessel.  Its hard to know what condition they are in, but its certainly possible that they remain in good condition. In any case, the TK-208 Donskoi would be first cab off the rank?
    eehnie
    eehnie

    Posts : 2476
    Points : 2487
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  eehnie on Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:57 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Hole wrote:Arkhangelsk and Severstal are retired. For years now. The russian MoD is just saving the money to dismantle them.

    We never had the money to dismantle them.  The US paid to do it for a long time in exchange for highly enriched uranium.  

    Russia dismantled over 100 military ships only in 2018. Russia has money for much more than this. The US has been paying this because part of their defense strategy was to destroy key weapons of the adversary.

    These 2 submarines are still too young to be decommissioned. Between all the nuclear submarines decommissioned without sinking, these two are 1st and 5th youngest, and all the conventional submarines decommissioned without sinking are older. There is not a hurry for their scrapping. And a modernization and recovery can be logical because both ships can have still around 2 decades of life for the role they prefer. As example, it is not logical that the oldest submarine of the project be the alone still active or in the reserve.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 1504
    Points : 1496
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:32 am

    Russia isn't going to modernize the Typhoons.....there was a proposed project years back to turn them into cargo subs, I suppose that could be a decent use for them but has SSBN's they career is over.
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 13949
    Points : 14446
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:51 pm

    Μy favorite submarine

    World’s largest nuclear-powered sub takes part in Russia’s Northern Fleet drills

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 1226167

    MOSCOW, July 18. /TASS/. The world’s largest nuclear-powered submarine Dmitry Donskoi took part in the Russian Northern Fleet’s anti-submarine warfare drills, the Fleet’s press office reported on Thursday.

    "As part of planned combat training measures, the naval anti-submarine strike group of warships from the Belomorsk naval base held a tactical exercise in the White Sea to search for a submarine … At some stages of this exercise, the crew of the heavy nuclear-powered underwater cruiser Dmitry Donskoi acted as an adversary force for the naval anti-submarine strike group," the press office said in a statement.

    Under the drills’ scenario, small missile ships Onega and Naryan-Mar practiced searching for, detecting and tracking a notional enemy’s submarine with the employment of all the available sonar systems, as well as anti-submarine maneuvering along different courses and at different speeds and dodging a sub’s torpedo attack, the statement reads.

    "The drills culminated with a combat exercise to strike a simulated underwater target. The crews of each of the anti-submarine ships conducted depth bombing from RBU-6000 depth charge launchers," the Fleet’s press office commented.

    The crews of the small missile ships earlier accomplished the assigned missions of protecting and defending a caravan of ships and also successfully practiced the employment of weapons and electronic counter-measures against a simultaneous attack from the air and the sea.

    The Dmitry Donskoi is the first Project 941 Akula-class vessel that has been in service with Russia’s Northern Fleet since 1981 and is also the world’s largest nuclear-powered sub. The Russian Navy used the submarine for the first test launches of the seaborne Bulava intercontinental ballistic missile.

    The Dmitry Donskoi was the first among the nuclear-powered missile-carrying submarines to take part in Russia’s Main Naval Parade in Kronstadt in 2017. To appear at the naval parade, the underwater missile-carrying cruiser made the Russian Navy’s first ever transit in a surfaced position from the Kola Bay to the Gulf of Finland through the Baltic Sea straits and back.
    https://tass.com/defense/1069336
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8420
    Points : 8504
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:53 am


    So they are using it as OPFOR vessel?

    Makes sense I guess, others are nes that should be getting training instead of acting as "enemy"

    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 6664
    Points : 6731
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:46 pm

    Another photo showing the shear size. Edit, second added


    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 ED6A-emW4AAJpA5

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 ED9eOzcWkAIIxVg


    Last edited by JohninMK on Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22539
    Points : 23083
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:47 am

    Hell, with all the work they are doing with UAVs they could almost use it as a UAV carrier to land and refuel and launch UAVs in the southern oceans...

    As a back up they could use it as an arsenal ship, so any missile strike could easily be to any level they want, but more importantly in times of tension they could load that nuclear propelled unlimited range cruise missile, again from the southern oceans... they could modify it to be like a cargo ship with perhaps a bare crew of 8 to operate the vessel and three separate crews to operate in three 8 hour shifts, so 25-26 man crew total, hanging around the southern oceans operating HALEs and MALEs and other UAVs of various sizes monitoring the ozone layer and antarctic ice shelf conditions and carrying ultra long range cruise missiles and perhaps with a totally modified rear end... replace the two old reactors with a single much more powerful reactor, but also replace shaft drive and gearboxes with electric motor propulsion and operationally test that around the world so that when it comes time to build 20K ton cruisers and 7K ton destroyers that the reactors are mature as is the all electric drive system.

    It wont be cheap but what they learn operationally using combined nuclear and electric drive on large ships will be invaluable for a range of new vessels they are planning.

    Based on the drawing already shown of the internals of the subs I would say do away with the torpedo room at the front and fit fixed sonar arrays like on the new subs but also fixed external tubes with torpedoes and various missiles and decoys and self defence torpedos from the nose right around the outside of the sub to the fin with perhaps 60 odd ready to launch torpedoes and missiles and decoys. Reduce the size of the internal pressure hulls on each side leading forward to the torpedo room to small or indeed nothing... fill it with water ballast that can be pumped out for emergency surfacing operations and expand the centre section outside the pressure hull for the missile tubes and carry 500 tubes.

    Expensive... probably, but you are getting a potent system with multiple uses and a test platform that will allow testing of systems that will become pretty standard on most vehicles of the future... and you end up with the real underwater equivalent of the Kirov in the mid 1980s...
    avatar
    Firebird

    Posts : 1014
    Points : 1040
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Firebird on Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:40 pm

    Those Typhoons are GIGANTIC.
    They weigh 23k to 24k tons surfaced.
    And 34k to 48k tons submerged.

    I remember seeing the British (light) aircraft carriers of the Invincible class as a kid.
    They only weighed 22k tons.

    Would love to see the Typhoon theme be continued in some way in the more distant future. They are amazing machines.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 3113
    Points : 3111
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:08 pm

    ..and carrying ultra long range cruise missiles..

    it's not very quiet & could be easily picked up & tracked, esp. when not under ice; I doubt they'll send her outside of the NF AOR: they need it for SLBM testing purposes & training- all the other SSBNs r too old or needed for patrols.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 4108
    Points : 4098
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:25 pm

    Would love to see the Typhoon theme be continued in some way in the more distant future. They are amazing machines.

    And they are outdated and expensive. Useless for the modern Russian navy. A smaller borei converted to SSGN would be a much better choice.

    Sponsored content

    Typhoon class SSBNs future: - Page 4 Empty Re: Typhoon class SSBNs future:

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:28 am