Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

Not this fucking bullshit model again

That is not a real project, my guy

Ignore it from now on

Amur shipyard may receive an order this year for two frigates of the "Admiral" series.
The shipyard in Komsomolsk should soon become the most efficient in Russia.

The Amur Shipbuilding Plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in 2022 may receive an order for the construction of two frigates under projects 22350 and 22350M of the so-called "admiral" series. As Vladimir Kulakov, General Director of the shipyard, noted, the enterprise is ready to fulfill this contract, slipways have been emptied in the workshops for the planned warships of the far sea zone, the plant can hand over the first order in 2027, Khabarovsk Krai Today reports.

https://todaykhv.ru/news/economics-and-business/51501/

Dang podlodka you beat me to it lol, yup looks like Amur is slated to start cranking out 6 of these bad boys.

Then it makes me wonder, the 10 ships under contract at severnaya, would they all be going to northern fleet?

my humble opinion

* Baltic; I think that after these current events with NATO, there will be a significant rearmament of the Baltic Fleet. So that means that Yantar shipyard could be included in construction of a few new frigates for BF or for 20380/85 corvettes. They will also get a new contract for 11711 class of landing ships.
* Northern fleet is going to stay the most powerful fleet by number of submarines and few more Severnaya built 22350 frigates will be delivered to NF.
* Amur shipyard will be good if MOD gives them contract for the construction of frigates, but i think that most of those frigates will be handed over to PF. As things stand now, it is not impossible for PF to become the most powerful Russian fleet in the future or to be completely equal to the NF, except for submarines. Nope, Northern fleet will stay the submarine kingdome.
* Black sea fleet; ZALIV is too busy with the construction of universal landing ships of 23900 class and i dont think that "More" shipyard is capable for the construction of frigates, but if they can build 22800 Karakurt small rocket ships than they could built 20380 corvettes also.  
* AND there is one more shipyard but too busy with the construction of nuclear ice breakers, BALTIC shipyard.. Those 22350 frigates would be an easy meal for Baltic shipyard..God damn Severnaya Werf.
* Zvezda shipyard ; I can only imagine building ships of greater displacement there, not 22350 frigates. Only thing that thez are working now for russian MOD is modernization of the 949A Antey submarines. But for know...

Podlodka77 wrote:my humble opinion

* Baltic; I think that after these current events with NATO, there will be a significant rearmament of the Baltic Fleet. So that means that Yantar shipyard could be included in construction of a few new frigates for BF or for 20380/85 corvettes. They will also get a new contract for 11711 class of landing ships.
* Northern fleet is going to stay the most powerful fleet by number of submarines and few more Severnaya built 22350 frigates will be delivered to NF.
* Amur shipyard will be good if MOD gives them contract for the construction of frigates, but i think that most of those frigates will be handed over to PF. As things stand now, it is not impossible for PF to become the most powerful Russian fleet in the future or to be completely equal to the NF, except for submarines. Nope, Northern fleet will stay the submarine kingdome.
* Black sea fleet; ZALIV is too busy with the construction of universal landing ships of 23900 class and i dont think that "More" shipyard is capable for the construction of frigates, but if they can build 22800 Karakurt small rocket ships than they could built 20380 corvettes also.  
* AND there is one more shipyard but too busy with the construction of nuclear ice breakers, BALTIC shipyard.. Those 22350 frigates would be an easy meal for Baltic shipyard..God damn Severnaya Werf.
* Zvezda shipyard ; I can only imagine building ships of greater displacement there, not 22350 frigates. Only thing that thez are working now for russian MOD is modernization of the 949A Antey submarines. But for know...

Dear Prophet,

You forgot the Admiralty shipyard.
Please tell us what to expect from that yard.

Krepost wrote:

Podlodka77 wrote:my humble opinion

* Baltic; I think that after these current events with NATO, there will be a significant rearmament of the Baltic Fleet. So that means that Yantar shipyard could be included in construction of a few new frigates for BF or for 20380/85 corvettes. They will also get a new contract for 11711 class of landing ships.
* Northern fleet is going to stay the most powerful fleet by number of submarines and few more Severnaya built 22350 frigates will be delivered to NF.
* Amur shipyard will be good if MOD gives them contract for the construction of frigates, but i think that most of those frigates will be handed over to PF. As things stand now, it is not impossible for PF to become the most powerful Russian fleet in the future or to be completely equal to the NF, except for submarines. Nope, Northern fleet will stay the submarine kingdome.
* Black sea fleet; ZALIV is too busy with the construction of universal landing ships of 23900 class and i dont think that "More" shipyard is capable for the construction of frigates, but if they can build 22800 Karakurt small rocket ships than they could built 20380 corvettes also.  
* AND there is one more shipyard but too busy with the construction of nuclear ice breakers, BALTIC shipyard.. Those 22350 frigates would be an easy meal for Baltic shipyard..God damn Severnaya Werf.
* Zvezda shipyard ; I can only imagine building ships of greater displacement there, not 22350 frigates. Only thing that thez are working now for russian MOD is modernization of the 949A Antey submarines. But for know...

Dear Prophet,

You forgot the Admiralty shipyard.
Please tell us what to expect from that yard.

677 class submarines, universal patrol ships of the project 23550, ice breakers of the project 21180(M), maybe more rescue ships like Igor Belousov of the project 21300 Dolpfin, etc.

Prediction is all well and good, but there are also unknowns... shipyards that seem to be under performing or running out of work might be clearing space for new jobs we don't know about... ship building requires plans years and years in advance so watching from the outside reading the stuff officially released to the public only gives you a tiny window on what is actually going on.

For each new ship build for all we know there might be other upgrades or extra work or much smaller jobs they are also doing too...

All I can say is that they are picking up speed and getting better and the quality of the ships they are making look rather good.

I mean look at the Buyan-M... who else has a dedicated long endurance anti piracy ship that is small and therefore presumably relatively cheap but also rather sophisticated with all sorts of new stuff fitted?

There are reports that the 22350M that will be assigned to the Amur shipyard in the Far East are actually a downsized pr.22350 Gorshkov "Lite" version for Pacific Fleet only.
I know, I know it is confusing as we are led to believe that the 22350M is the upsized version of the pr.22350 class.
It could all be erroneous. Or it could indeed be true.
In a way it does make sense. In an other it does not.  

Technical specifications given for the frigates of project 22350 (22350M)

Crew - 186 people
Length - 135 m
Beam - 16 m
Draft - 4.5 m
Standard displacement - 3900 t
Full displacement - 4500 t
Full speed - 29
knots 14 knots
Economic cruising range - 4000 miles
Endurance - 30 days

Armament:
- Universal ship-based firing missile system (UKSK) 3K14 "Caliber" with 2 x 8 vertical launchers 3S14U1, missiles of the "Caliber-NK" complex (3M54T, 3M54T1, 3M14T, 91RT2), anti-ship missiles "Onyx" 3M55 / P-160.
- Two vertical launchers for 14 missiles of the Redut-Poliment complex
- Two combat modules 3R89 "Palash" with 2 x 2 x 4 launchers of 9M340 missiles
- Two MANPADS of the "Igla-M" type
- 1 x 130 mm A-192M mount with 5P-10 Puma control system
- 2 x 14.5 mm KPVT machine guns on MTPU mounts
- Torpedo complex - 2 x 6 x launchers SM-588 of the "Packet-NK" complex
- Helicopter - Ka-27PS


One of the sources is:  https://todaykhv.ru/news/economics-and-business/51501/

It makes no sense to downsize for a fleet operating in the largest ocean on the planet, with the greatest distances between land.

And here is another source that contradicts the above:

Secs of pr.22350M:


Length - 160 m
Full displacement - 8000 t
Full speed - 30 knots

Armament:
- 6 x UKSK for 48 Zirkon, Onyx, Kalibr
- 96 missiles for polyment-redut
- 2 x helicopters

Source: https://paluba.media/news/16784

I will be very surprised if they go smaller! It makes no sense to me either. Then you may as well just stick with 20380's.

Considering how standard 22350s went from 16 UKSK launchers to 24 with associated tonnage without getting a new letter, and Lider cruiser not exactly getting much interest from MOD, I think it can be safely assumed that 22350M is gonna be 12k or more in terms of displacement.

Why bother going all out on nuclear powered destroyer design to replace Kirov that at most is getting built in numbers of four or at BEST 6?

Kirovs got built during "we don't want carrier" thinking of USSR, and it's associated size were due to massive missile size and command/control facilities for the rest of the fleet, which doesn't take up much for an aircraft carrier due to their natural shape and volume but is sizable for a cruiser.

Zircons are vastly more capable than Granit's and take up three times less space, and digital computing has vastly decreased the need for enormous command and control centers in the way they were implemented on Kirovs, it's like replacing a Commodore 64 with a modern laptop, but thinking that since the Commodore was a certain size and weight, then the replacement must also be just as heavy.

x_54_u43 wrote:Considering how standard 22350s went from 16 UKSK launchers to 24 with associated tonnage without getting a new letter, and Lider cruiser not exactly getting much interest from MOD, I think it can be safely assumed that 22350M is gonna be 12k or more in terms of displacement.

Why bother going all out on nuclear powered destroyer design to replace Kirov that at most is getting built in numbers of four or at BEST 6?

Kirovs got built during "we don't want carrier" thinking of USSR, and it's associated size were due to massive missile size and command/control facilities for the rest of the fleet, which doesn't take up much for an aircraft carrier due to their natural shape and volume but is sizable for a cruiser.

Zircons are vastly more capable than Granit's and take up three times less space, and digital computing has vastly decreased the need for enormous command and control centers in the way they were implemented otn Kirovs, it's like replacing a Commodore 64 with a modern laptop, but thinking that since the Commodore was a certain size and weight, then the replacement must also be just as heavy.

Kirovs WERE not built during the period "we don't want carierrs" but they were built when Admiral Sergei Gorshkow was chief of the Russian navy. He was the guy that has ordered carriers Kuznetsov and Varyag, nuclear Ulyanovsk, Orlan class of cruisers, Atlant class of cruisers.

Yes Admiral Sergey Gorshkov wanted to build a powerful ocean fleet
and then they had perhaps the most powerful fleet. A little more and they would have nuclear aircraft carriers

Arrow wrote:Yes Admiral Sergey Gorshkov wanted to build a powerful ocean fleet
and then they had perhaps the most powerful fleet.  A little more and they would have nuclear aircraft carriers

He had 20/20 vision.

Soviet navy was powerful thanks to its hundreds of subs.

Gorshkov's ocean fleet would have been good to support allies but when you see how those allies turned their back on soviets after being gifted planes, boats and civilian products for their failed states for no money it's good they didn't build it. Would have been pretty useless.

Isos wrote:Soviet navy was powerful thanks to its hundreds of subs.

Gorshkov's ocean fleet would have been good to support allies but when you see how those allies turned their back on soviets after being gifted planes, boats and civilian products for their failed states for no money it's good they didn't build it. Would have been pretty useless.

Correct

That ally support fleet would have been yet another (thick) layer on the USSR's wasted money cake

Power came from subs and still does

There was a time when the Soviets had hundreds of subs but very few of them were actually of significant value. The earliest SSG/SSGN's had to surface in order to launch any attack against a carrier task force. Basically a sure way to commit suicide. Those early SSN's/SSGN's were also quite noisy and suffered from reliability issues. Hitching a tow back to Sevmash from the middle of the Atlantic must have been quite embarrassing!

The Pr.671 was really the beginning of a turnaround in Soviet submarine capability and with the Pr.671RTM these subs became very competitive with the latest NATO SSN's at the time. The real advance came with the Titanium subs and the Schuka-B's together with the Antey's but by then the numbers were dwindling as it became much more expensive to build.

The same pattern followed the SSB/SSBN subs.

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:Soviet navy was powerful thanks to its hundreds of subs.

Gorshkov's ocean fleet would have been good to support allies but when you see how those allies turned their back on soviets after being gifted planes, boats and civilian products for their failed states for no money it's good they didn't build it. Would have been pretty useless.

Correct

That ally support fleet would have been yet another (thick) layer on the USSR's wasted money cake

Power came from subs and still does

In the history of naval warfare, it never pays to be second. Second tier surface fleets like Germany in both WWI and WWII are money and resources misspent. Submarines are always a better option if you are not the top dog. The US navy in surface warfare is in a traditional sense top dog, but technology calls into question the whole value of surface ship warfare. Hypersonic long-range weapons may render the whole concept of capital ships obsolete.

calripson wrote:In the history of naval warfare, it never pays to be second. Second tier surface fleets like Germany in both WWI and WWII are money and resources misspent. Submarines are always a better option if you are not the top dog. The US navy in surface warfare is in a traditional sense top dog, but technology calls into question the whole value of surface ship warfare. Hypersonic long-range weapons may render the whole concept of capital ships obsolete.

The current unbalance between weapons like Tsirkon and any known AD system renders any surface fleet obsolete. Future capital ships will most likely be the first surface assets to be able to defend against hypersonic missiles, but of course in the meantime the subs are crucial, specially for the USN which would be otherwise practically ineffective vs VMF. Pretty significant development taking place right now...

calripson wrote:In the history of naval warfare, it never pays to be second. Second tier surface fleets like Germany in both WWI and WWII are money and resources misspent. Submarines are always a better option if you are not the top dog. The US navy in surface warfare is in a traditional sense top dog, but technology calls into question the whole value of surface ship warfare. Hypersonic long-range weapons may render the whole concept of capital ships obsolete.

They have been for a long time. Ever since I heard about the Granit missile in the 1980s I realized surface ships were pretty much obsolete as a weapon of war between superpowers.

But you do need something to patrol sea lanes against pirates and enforce your maritime policy on the merchant marine. For this submarines are pretty much useless. They are a sea denial platform but cannot provide the merchant patrol role properly. Of course this is only relevant if you depend on international trade. Which is why you see China spending these huge sums on their navy. Russia does not need to do this.

What I think would be a major step forward would be satellite launch capability from submarines to reestablish a communications and/or recon capability in case of ASAT attack on the existing network. Also perhaps they could operate drones from submarines for reconnaissance of targets for the cruise missiles.

lancelot wrote:

What I think would be a major step forward would be satellite launch capability from submarines to reestablish a communications and/or recon capability in case of ASAT attack on the existing network. Also perhaps they could operate drones from submarines for reconnaissance of targets for the cruise missiles.

This is nothing new. They already did. They fired a satellite from the SSBN with a converted R 29 rocket.

Arrow wrote:This is nothing new.  They already did.  They fired a satellite from the SSBN with a converted R 29 rocket.

I know about this. But the capability needs to be moved forward to the new platforms. Also the last test was done many, many years ago.

Isos wrote:Soviet navy was powerful thanks to its hundreds of subs.

Gorshkov's ocean fleet would have been good to support allies but when you see how those allies turned their back on soviets after being gifted planes, boats and civilian products for their failed states for no money it's good they didn't build it. Would have been pretty useless.

Don´t forget the hundreds of missile carriers (bombers).

By the way, subs are more expensive to build then surface ships. And Russia had the second largest surface fleet since the 60´s.