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    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:52 am

    I would expect they would be flying at relatively high altitude at those speeds... Kinzhal at mach 10 reportedly and Zircon at mach 9 reportedly... the main difference is that the Kinzhal will be burning a lower energy fuel so perhaps in a steep dive on the target it might accelerate due to gravity so when it hit a target at sea level it might be going mach 2 faster... perhaps Mach 12... its rocket motor will be overcoming drag and the extra energy of gravity should allow it to go faster in a dive... remember this is not an airplane so there is no maximum never exceed speed where its wings will stall, but because of the speed it is travelling it can only dive for a relatively short period before it runs in to the ground so it could not continue to accelerate to enormous speeds like mach 20 or anything.

    With the Zircon it is a powered aircraft and as long as it still has fuel it can crank that engine up to full throttle, so it could probably accelerate to a much higher speed in a steep dive... but manouvering would limit how fast it could actually do so effectively.

    Both missiles could probably dive in an irregular cork screw pattern that would make interception pretty difficult without losing too much speed... ironically imagine a Zircon diving at a carrier from 50km altitude at 3km dive speed a second... an interception of the missile 3 seconds from impact means all your interception missiles launched from nearby AEGIS cruisers will likely hit the carrier too... hahahaha... so if the missile hasn't been intercepted above about 3km altitude it is not going to be intercepted... and ironically enough even a lucky hit at 4-5km altitude means the debris will likely still hit the carrier and do some really serious damage anyway...

    And it is the first generation scramjet... now that the INF treaty has gone the range of these missiles can be extended enormously to make them even more effective...

    More importantly the nuclear propulsion of that cruise missile has the potential to act like a ramjet, but as there is no combustion it can act like a scramjet, which means in the future top speeds and flight durations could be eye watering for relatively small missiles...
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    Post  mnztr on Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:41 pm


    The reason the US kinda sucks on defensive missiles is that their docterine states offence is the best form of defence and they have built their Air Force to "ensure" control of the skies. The believe they can neutralize any air defence through ECM, Stealth and by attacking radars and launchers. It is a connundum. If the US was to fire a wave of cruise missiles can AS 400 take them ALL out? How long can they keep up this defence? Once you have a hole in the defence you can go in and finish it. It depends how sophisticated the spoofing, decoys and counter jamming is. Hopefully we never find out who is right.




    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    kvs wrote:I find it strange how outdated US missiles are.   Russia was working on bleeding edge missile tech even during the 1990s when workers were not paid or got paid in barter goods.   This fact underlies the current advanced state of Russian missile systems.  By contrast the US is selling the THAAD to Japan and others as some worthwhile system.   I know that the US has introduced new missile systems over the last 20 years, but their specs are underwhelming.   Now they are scrambling to develop supersonic-class anti-ship missiles (supposedly they will
    just jump over supersonic to hypersonic in one leap).   Their ICBMs are ancient as well.   For the self-anointed masters of the universe
    this is extremely strange considering how pauper Russia is doing in the missile tech realm.


    Lets further investigate this. As I already mentioned the U.S. had access to parts of S-300V by the 'compromiser' Boorish Yelpsin, had access to Slovakian and Greek S-300's via NATO exercises, has had strong influx of scientists and engineers from Asia (to make up for their brain drain at home), had the luxury of having modern digital electronics and more than adequate funding, but yet PAC-3 still has overall inferior characteristics to S-300PS, a system introduced in 1979, and it's development started from the mid 1960's. That in itself isn't the biggest kicker, the biggest damnation against the Patriot series is the fact that Raytheon has completely given up on improving the PAC-3 series, and completely outsourced the development of PAC-4 to the Israeli based Rafael concern. A country of 320 million with the biggest military budget in history, is completely incapable of meeting the needs of their nations aerospace defense, and is reliant on a country of 6 million (1/53rd the population) to meet those very needs....the same country that 1/6th of their population (including many of their scientists and engineers) are ex-USSR.
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    Post  kvs on Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:39 am

    mnztr wrote:
    The reason the US kinda sucks on defensive missiles is that their docterine states offence is the best form of defence and they have built their Air Force to "ensure" control of the skies. The believe they can neutralize any air defence through ECM, Stealth and by attacking radars and launchers. It is a connundum. If the US was to fire a wave of cruise missiles can AS 400 take them ALL out? How long can they keep up this defence? Once you have a hole in the defence you can go in and finish it. It depends how sophisticated the spoofing, decoys and counter jamming is. Hopefully we never find out who is right.




    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    kvs wrote:I find it strange how outdated US missiles are.   Russia was working on bleeding edge missile tech even during the 1990s when workers were not paid or got paid in barter goods.   This fact underlies the current advanced state of Russian missile systems.  By contrast the US is selling the THAAD to Japan and others as some worthwhile system.   I know that the US has introduced new missile systems over the last 20 years, but their specs are underwhelming.   Now they are scrambling to develop supersonic-class anti-ship missiles (supposedly they will
    just jump over supersonic to hypersonic in one leap).   Their ICBMs are ancient as well.   For the self-anointed masters of the universe
    this is extremely strange considering how pauper Russia is doing in the missile tech realm.


    Lets further investigate this. As I already mentioned the U.S. had access to parts of S-300V by the 'compromiser' Boorish Yelpsin, had access to Slovakian and Greek S-300's via NATO exercises, has had strong influx of scientists and engineers from Asia (to make up for their brain drain at home), had the luxury of having modern digital electronics and more than adequate funding, but yet PAC-3 still has overall inferior characteristics to S-300PS, a system introduced in 1979, and it's development started from the mid 1960's. That in itself isn't the biggest kicker, the biggest damnation against the Patriot series is the fact that Raytheon has completely given up on improving the PAC-3 series, and completely outsourced the development of PAC-4 to the Israeli based Rafael concern. A country of 320 million with the biggest military budget in history, is completely incapable of meeting the needs of their nations aerospace defense, and is reliant on a country of 6 million (1/53rd the population) to meet those very needs....the same country that 1/6th of their population (including many of their scientists and engineers) are ex-USSR.

    Sounds like excuses. Nothing stops the US from having better tools for the job. No doctrine can explain keeping weapons obsolete. To
    assume that stealth is effective against world leading scientific and technological powers like Russia is inane. The only enemy that the US
    can dominate with its air superiority doctrine is 3rd world pushovers. It has in no way demonstrated it can do this against Russia. Other
    than retarded chest thumping, circle jerk self affirmation about Russian inferiority in the mass media and entertainment media.

    Again, what sort of doctrine prevents the adoption of weapons that would enhance air superiority, such as hypersonic AS missiles?

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr on Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:30 am

    The US and Russia both want to avoid a direct confrontation. Whoever wins it will not be pretty. Russia builds systems like AS400 because they have a massive country with huge empty spaces and long borders to defend. The US has airbases all over their counrty .Their defensive requirements are very different.


    kvs wrote:

    Sounds like excuses.   Nothing stops the US from having better tools for the job.   No doctrine can explain keeping weapons obsolete.   To
    assume that stealth is effective against world leading scientific and technological powers like Russia is inane.   The only enemy that the US
    can dominate with its air superiority doctrine is 3rd world pushovers.   It has in no way demonstrated it can do this against Russia.   Other
    than retarded chest thumping, circle jerk self affirmation about Russian inferiority in the mass media and entertainment media.  

    Again, what sort of doctrine prevents the adoption of weapons that would enhance air superiority, such as hypersonic AS missiles?

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    Post  Gazputin on Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:20 am

    every country in the "United" Nations
    has a vested interest in keeping things the way they are because they have something …

    all the poor bastards who weren't sitting in a chair when the UN decided to "freeze" borders …. lost out
    eg Kurds ….

    The UN is a giant club …. where the "haves" do their best to keep the "have nots" out …..

    anyway Kinzhal …. seems perfectly suited for Black Sea, Baltic ….. Vladivostok area ….
    I see it as a ship killer … maybe I'm wrong …..
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:33 am

    The reason the US kinda sucks on defensive missiles is that their docterine states offence is the best form of defence and they have built their Air Force to "ensure" control of the skies. The believe they can neutralize any air defence through ECM, Stealth and by attacking radars and launchers. It is a connundum. If the US was to fire a wave of cruise missiles can AS 400 take them ALL out? How long can they keep up this defence? Once you have a hole in the defence you can go in and finish it. It depends how sophisticated the spoofing, decoys and counter jamming is. Hopefully we never find out who is right.

    The Russians are not asleep, they have carefully studied the way NATO and the US operate, the main point being Russia is not a third world country with one big Fixed SAM defending their command and control centres and communications hubs that can fire at one cruise missile at a time, with an airforce with little command and control beyond that controlled by those command and control centres.

    Fire 4-6 cruise missiles and the SAM sites are overwhelmed and the major radars and Comms centres destroyed the defence of that state becomes independent individual systems that are really weak on their own and can be destroyed one at a time fairly easily with a well organised and trained and armed force like NATO or the US.

    Their problem is that a Russian system like a single S-400 battery doesn't exist... there are dozens of radar sites in every area with different sized radars and SAMs and other systems all interlinked, and those detection systems reach to well outside Russian territory.

    Any US attack to take down an S-400 will be very risky because any major cruise missile attack requires cruise missile carriers which are themselves vulnerable to counter attack... B-1Bs, Subs, Ships, tactical fighters... once they start launching missiles at a Russian S-400 system they become fair game and I can promise you that to launch the large numbers of missiles needed to overwhelm an S-400 battery you should expect to lose a lot of launch platforms and still not expect to get that S-400 system because it can defend itself and if it runs out of missiles it can move while TOR and Pantsir batteries continue to shoot down cruise missiles in enormous numbers... and of course local PVO aircraft monitor incoming threats and deal with some as well...

    With a fully operational Russian network even Igla-S and Verba MANPAD batteries can effectively shoot down cruise missiles... the Barnaul command system can easily detect and track such weapons and cue soldiers to point and launch their missiles at the best times and places to bring down such weapons.

    Ongoing improvements like Pine and S-350 and S-500 are only making the problem worse for the US.

    Russia builds systems like AS400 because they have a massive country with huge empty spaces and long borders to defend. The US has airbases all over their counrty .Their defensive requirements are very different.

    No. What is different is the method of providing air defence, and it is more to do with political power and stepping on shoes... the USAF has claimed all responsibility for keeping the skies over US military operations exclusively for US forces and their allies... and with their current focus on F-35s and F-22s and stealth it seems they are dropping the ball.

    The Russian/Soviet air defences have evolved over time to meet the threat posed by the west and they have achieved their goals with new radar and sensors and weapon systems offering an interwoven defence network where even if a part is destroyed, the rest can still continue to operate.

    Now that the INF treaty is gone the EU will realise what they need is an IADS like the Soviets and Russians have been developing for half a century or more to protect them even just from cruise missile attack.... cruise missiles are cheap to mass produce and most importantly the ones the EU wants to protect itself from are not the expensive precise missiles coming through the third window on the right in a HQ building in Brussels... what they need to stop is the much much cheaper one with a 200KT warhead that might miss the building by 200m or so but will still obliterate the entire city block and several more around it... much cheaper and simpler and with breeder nuclear reactor power stations much cheaper and quicker and easier to equip with a nuclear warhead...

    They are going to need the cheapest gas supplier they can find...
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    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:22 am

    Russia has reportedly started the development of a ground launched "Kinzhal". It will be a 2 stage rocket. The first stage will propel the missile to the required height and speed while the second stage will proceed as a regular air launched Kinzhal...sounds like a 2 stage Iskander

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 12 Dr3

    Arrow http://in24.org/technology/36979?utm_source=warfiles.ru
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:35 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Russia has reportedly started the development of a ground launched "Kinzhal". It will be a 2 stage rocket. The first stage will propel the missile to the required height and speed while the second stage will proceed as a regular air launched Kinzhal...sounds like a 2 stage Iskander

    http://in24.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/dr3.jpg

    Arrow http://in24.org/technology/36979?utm_source=warfiles.ru


    Saw this coming year ago, thank you INF cancelation thumbsup

    So that's two Mach 10 anti-ship missiles with at least 2000km range on a truck

    On lots and lots of trucks

    If approaching Russian coastline was hard before now it will be completely suicidal

    And don't get me started on options that this opens for ground targets



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    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:31 am

    I would guess it would be aimed primarily at ground targets
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:42 am

    Not to mention shipping crate versions.

    The way Putin was talking regarding land based cruise missiles it sounded to me like he was talking about unifying launchers with the navy launchers... ie like a Russian AEGIS Ashore, but with the UKSK-M perhaps... it would mean standardisation, and also when they develop land launched IRBMs these weapons can also be launched from ships.... meaning 2,500km range manouvering hypersonic scramjet powered missiles could be launched from shipping crate, truck, train, riverboat, building, or ship... as well as air launched models...

    Things are moving forward fast... the irony is that with the introduction of S-350 and Pine, and S-500 and the expansion of S-400, as well as S-300V4, new model BUK 3, TOR 3, new model Pantsir, Verba... and now 57mm autoguns replacing Tunguska... not to mention all the older systems and all the new and old radar sets, Russian air defence is stronger than ever... it really doesn't matter if the INF treaty gets ripped up, they are way better prepared for IRBMs than any of their neighbours including all of NATO and the EU and the US.

    The US has ripped up that treaty because it says it ties its hands against China, but really it tied Russian hands more...
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:00 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Saw this coming year ago, thank you INF cancelation thumbsup

    So that's two Mach 10 anti-ship missiles with at least 2000km range on a truck

    On lots and lots of trucks

    If approaching Russian coastline was hard before now it will be completely suicidal

    And don't get me started on options that this opens for ground targets

    Isn't it funny how NATOstani sock puppets expressed doubt that AShBM tech was plausible, and while the Chicoms had deployed a significant number, they weren't "combat tested" and in any case, the drunk Ruskie cave-men couldn't possibly develop their own as their economy was smaller than Italy...  LOL!! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing  

    These Eurotrash satraps can now contemplate a future where the Baltic becomes one large kill-zone and their navies become an expensive liability, and all because these feckless cowards lacked the cajones to stand up the Washingtonian beltway and its pathological stupidity and arrogance.

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    Post  kvs on Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:Not to mention shipping crate versions.

    The way Putin was talking regarding land based cruise missiles it sounded to me like he was talking about unifying launchers with the navy launchers... ie like a Russian AEGIS Ashore, but with the UKSK-M perhaps... it would mean standardisation, and also when they develop land launched IRBMs these weapons can also be launched from ships.... meaning 2,500km range manouvering hypersonic scramjet powered missiles could be launched from shipping crate, truck, train, riverboat, building, or ship... as well as air launched models...

    Things are moving forward fast... the irony is that with the introduction of S-350 and Pine, and S-500 and the expansion of S-400, as well as S-300V4, new model BUK 3, TOR 3, new model Pantsir, Verba... and now 57mm autoguns replacing Tunguska... not to mention all the older systems and all the new and old radar sets, Russian air defence is stronger than ever... it really doesn't matter if the INF treaty gets ripped up, they are way better prepared for IRBMs than any of their neighbours including all of NATO and the EU and the US.

    The US has ripped up that treaty because it says it ties its hands against China, but really it tied Russian hands more...

    Indeed, the smarmy yanquis snookered themselves with the shredding of the INF. Gorby sold Russia down the river with the INF and now
    this BS is over. The yanquis only gain advantages by sneaky treaties which they disregard themselves. The INF is a perfect example.
    Both the "practice target" missiles for the ABM and the ABM launchers are full blown violations of the INF. Russia should reply to
    yanqui aggressors with hypersonic IRBMs. And don't play the yanqui games for pretending that only conventional warheads will be used.
    High yield nuclear warheads are essential. Then all of NATO's launch sites and conventional warfare asset deployments will be glassed.
    The yanquis will rue the days that they tore up the ABM treaty and the INF. Smug, dick-stroking assertions of technological superiority
    as routinely repeated by resident NATO trolls on this board are for morons.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:56 pm

    I wonder if they'll settle for just 2000km range for land based Kinzhal/Iskander-M2, if they're planning on using a 8-axel Kamaz BMO TEL for Pioneer-2 using Avantgarde warheads?
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    Post  kvs on Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:03 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:I wonder if they'll settle for just 2000km range for land based Kinzhal/Iskander-M2, if they're planning on using a 8-axel Kamaz BMO TEL for Pioneer-2 using Avantgarde warheads?

    Nothing is stopping Russia from producing revisions of the Kinzhal that span up to 6000 km. It looks like a high burn solid
    rocket propulsion system. So adding more stages with the same fuel will just make the missile faster. We are now in a new
    arms race involving forward deployed attack points. So Russian missile technology will evolve to deal with this threat.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:47 pm

    kvs wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:I wonder if they'll settle for just 2000km range for land based Kinzhal/Iskander-M2, if they're planning on using a 8-axel Kamaz BMO TEL for Pioneer-2 using Avantgarde warheads?

    Nothing is stopping Russia from producing revisions of the Kinzhal that span up to 6000 km.   It looks like a high burn solid
    rocket propulsion system.  So adding more stages with the same fuel will just make the missile faster.   We are now in a new
    arms race involving forward deployed attack points.  So Russian missile technology will evolve to deal with this threat.  

    The question is Pioneer-2 and what could be done with Zircon? Zircon as it is has 1000km range, and of course they could add stages, but what if they developed versions of Pioneer-2 that launched swarms of Zircon as opposed to launching them individually at a time? Pioneer-2/Rubezh Mod. 1 could have a single Avantgarde warhead, while Mod. 2 (depending on Zircon's thiccness) could have any where from 4 to 12 Zircons swarm launched. There's also the downsized Zircon meant to be used in the original (smaller) UKSK cell, you could maybe fit 12 to 20 of them on the second stage of the Mod. 3 version. NPO Molniya the design bureau behind Buran (which was recently revitalized under the parent company Kalashnikov Concern) are developing hypersonic target drones, it'd be nice if those drones could be spun off in to hypersonic decoys with radar-corner reflectors and flare payloads to make it resemble like there's and additional 50-300 Zircons being launched. Additional decoys could have EMP generator warheads that can fly in the direction of radars, ELINT/SIGNIT platforms. Even if the decoys lack the range of the Zircons, it'll cost precious time on the clock before they realize the real ones from the decoys.
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    Post  kvs on Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:00 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:I wonder if they'll settle for just 2000km range for land based Kinzhal/Iskander-M2, if they're planning on using a 8-axel Kamaz BMO TEL for Pioneer-2 using Avantgarde warheads?

    Nothing is stopping Russia from producing revisions of the Kinzhal that span up to 6000 km.   It looks like a high burn solid
    rocket propulsion system.  So adding more stages with the same fuel will just make the missile faster.   We are now in a new
    arms race involving forward deployed attack points.  So Russian missile technology will evolve to deal with this threat.  

    The question is Pioneer-2 and what could be done with Zircon? Zircon as it is has 1000km range, and of course they could add stages, but what if they developed versions of Pioneer-2 that launched swarms of Zircon as opposed to launching them individually at a time? Pioneer-2/Rubezh Mod. 1 could have a single Avantgarde warhead, while Mod. 2 (depending on Zircon's thiccness) could have any where from 4 to 12 Zircons swarm launched. There's also the downsized Zircon meant to be used in the original (smaller) UKSK cell, you could maybe fit 12 to 20 of them on the second stage of the Mod. 3 version. NPO Molniya the design bureau behind Buran (which was recently revitalized under the parent company Kalashnikov Concern) are developing hypersonic target drones, it'd be nice if those drones could be spun off in to hypersonic decoys with radar-corner reflectors and flare payloads to make it resemble like there's and additional 50-300 Zircons being launched. Additional decoys could have EMP generator warheads that can fly in the direction of radars, ELINT/SIGNIT platforms. Even if the decoys lack the range of the Zircons, it'll cost precious time on the clock before they realize the real ones from the decoys.

    Pioneer was an ICBM derivative that did not worry too much about boost phase time. So a slow and large delivery system for a cluster of
    fast missiles does not address the rapid response problem. Russia needs super-fast missiles to neutralize NATO's attack as it is in progress.
    The yanquis are betting on the deployment of their offensive missile systems on Russia's borders and on boost phase interception. Kinzhal
    derivatives would be like ABMs for the NATO ABM launchers and IRBMs. Not only yanquis can close the window on a Russian response,
    Russia can do the same on yanqui attack systems.

    I think a nuclear, regional "MLRS" concept would be worthwhile. Getting the intel to localize every offensive complex is improbable. Just
    glass anything that moves. That will teach NATO once and forever.

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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:26 am

    Quickest way to make an IRBM is to build an SLBM or ICBM with just two stages instead of three... they are already in production, but cruise missiles offer a much cheaper and simpler solution... they could make thousands and thousands of them for a very small chunk of the military budget... upgrade calibr to the 4,500km range model and make it a 5,000km range weapon by fitting it with a nuke warhead... the enormous benefit is that you could make them super cheap simply by not putting any terminal guidance system on them... just a nice powerful nuke warhead that will flatten a city even with a CEP of 2km.

    As they age you can transfer the oldest ones to naval forces with a conventional warhead and use them in Syria or for training...

    With hypersonic missiles as well roaring over top taking out major SAM sites and comms centres and of course HQs and major airfields the slow flying cheap cruise missiles can then destroy everything else on the cheap.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:28 pm


    As said some times ago this situation was largely expected and a reproduction of a well known historical precedent; the US ,put in a serious technological backlog angle, would have surely attempted to respond to the wide superiority of our new strategic elements (both offensive and defensive) capitalising like in '80 years the unique asset at theirs disposition to attempt to "counterbalance" those systems : political/economical influence on theirs allies-vassals and possibility to mass produce technologically inferior missiles rendered in some way relevant by the geographical placement allowed by the......hoped......compliance of theirs NATO vassals.



    The problem here is that the scenario is absolutely NOT SYMMETRICAL when strategic civil/economic/military assets and density at stake on both part are taken in consideration as highlighted and hinted by the always clear headed Виктор Мураховский

    https://riafan.ru/1153185-podletnoe-vremya-12-15-minut-ekspert-reshil-matematicheskuyu-zadachu-putina-dlya-ssha


    In facts taking only into consideration IRBMs and IRCMs we have that:

    1) Those IRBMs and IRCMs placed in the CONUS will be totally uncapable to put at risk any significative high density Federation's industrial/economic centers (mostly the most eastern part of Far East district) and will remain highly vulnerable to widely deployed Federation's Air Defenses systems, on the other side even considering classical IRBMs, without new generation hypersonic blocks warheads, or IRCMs the entire very high populated West Coast, that include the most important US civil and military technological and production centers, and all US Pacific ground and Naval military infrastructures will be under a constant thermonuclear and conventional cross hair and the US Air Defense at coverage of those critical infrastructures is , to put it midly, simply pathetic.


    2) Those US IRBM and ICBM placed in Europe (to acquire some kind of menacing relevance) will force hosting nations to accept a "losing hand" from the beginning; in facts Federations IRBMs and IRCMs, even discounting the new class of offensive weapons that obviously offer capabilities not reproduceable by western nations for at least 15 years and that defensive ones (majority of which still covered) that will equally revolutionize strategic paradigm in the next years, could cover the entire European territory while placed well within Federation's territory very far from the most highly populated and developed centers while European countries will have to accept that both in a "first strike" than in a "second strike" scenario theirs esistence will cease with a probability near to 100% cause the fact that each of them lack the territorial deepness to avoid that attacks on the missile-related military infrastructures will contemporaneously exetrminate theirs population and destroy theirs civil and industrial centers.


    Mine foresight, based on the new situation created by the widening technological gap existing between Federation and US strategic systems, is that the US, being perfectly aware that the placement of intermediate missiles in Europe will not last for a very long time (maybe with the only exception of Poland) before internal military and political pressure and mere preservation instinct will slowly crumble it (with potentially deflagrating effects on same NATO's existence) will attempt to persuade main European allies that a "temporary" placement of those nuclear missiles in Europe will persuade Federation authorities in accepting new arms control Treaties where a ban and limitations to theirs most cutting edge offensive and defensive systems would be ratified.

    Naturally, to the contrary of the '80 situation when true political betrayal prevented the СССР to take advantage of the broad technological and geostrategic advantage offered by РСД-10 system, today authorities will hopefully leave the growing burden of pressure exerted on European and Asian Usa's allies, generated by the matchless capabilities offered not by one, but more than a dozen of new kind of revolutionary offensive and defensive strategic systems, to slowly corrode the American grip on them based on the charging of all the existency capital risks and public opinion hanger on the shoulders of theirs vassals.

    Within some years, under that huge political and geostrategic pressure, the most powerful European nations will quickly search an agreement with Federation authorities outside of NATO format ,but instead an independent European military security one that will grow in influence, and a similar agreement taking into account exclusively Russian Federation and Europe mutual security interests instead of US ones will be easily found .



    In substance if managed with wisdom and above all patience the long terms effects of this collapse of INF can trigger the progressive neutralization of the selfish US influence on Europe and Eastern Asian nations until, with the loss of it, will be rendered evident the total inconsistence and unsustainability of US economic and production system when desprived of this basilary element and put instead in the same overall conditions of any other major competitor worldwide; it could be the beginning of a real multi-polar world.







    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:13 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:...Within some years, under that huge political and geostrategic pressure, the most powerful European nations will quickly search an agreement with Federation authorities outside of NATO format...

    There will be no pressure whatsoever and no European country will ever under any circumstances disobey orders from DC

    It never happened and never will happen

    They will all do as they​ are told without question, they will host those missiles as ordered to and will be roasted by Russian strike the moment something goes wrong/right

    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:44 pm

    These murican missiles are mostly there do blackmail their european and asian vassals. But Mindstorm is right, this could lead to some sort of revolt against the mainstream political parties in those countries.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:07 pm

    The critical part is not to sign any new treaties with Washington. If someone starts to bitch about Russia's evilness, then point to this recent test of a missile
    that the US supposedly did not have and accused Russia of having. Why would anyone sign a treaty with liars and blood libelers?

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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:32 pm

    Hole wrote:These murican missiles are mostly there do blackmail their european and asian vassals. But Mindstorm is right, this could lead to some sort of revolt against the mainstream political parties in those countries.


    Revolt? By whom?

    When was the last time Europeans did anything against the program?

    Orders will be given (by both USA and EU) and orders will be obeyed without question same as always.

    And what makes you think that Europeans would be against it?

    They have their own gameplan and exterminating Russians is high on priority list. Americans aren't doing this because they are bored, they just follow established dogma, one that white Europeans came up with long ago.


    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:29 pm

    EU-tards have failed to subjugate and/or exterminate Russia for 1000 years. Meanwhile they have become vassals of the yanquis. Clearly these
    retards don't learn. It will be the EU that will disappear before Russia. That is the way God wants it.

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    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:40 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Revolt? By whom?

    When was the last time Europeans did anything against the program?

    Orders will be given (by both USA and EU) and orders will be obeyed without question same as always.


    PapaDragon the situation, as already said, that would be generated would be not different (rather significantly worse in terms of negative implications for western US allies....) from the situation at the end of '80 years; now also then US and European Allies was perfectly aware that the placement of INF was practically impossible to continue in the long terms for the growing European pubblic and political pressure above all in a scenario where the CCCP was proposing a solution that avoided the placement of the deadly missiles (also in those time technically and for performances superior at times in comparison with the US -built ones) against European nations , exactly as now cleverly proposed by President В. В. Путин.
    That is the content of an high amount of by now publicly released classified and reserved analytical documents .

    Just to provide an example :

    "European (and American) officials agree that the consequences of not-ratification would be detrimental to the continued well-being of the alliance . This is because the leadership position of the U.S. would be questioned, while the Soviet Union would be perceived like the promoter of peace in Europe, NATO would be uncapable to continue its INF deployments and may , in facts, be forced to withdraw existing INF deployments due to strong public pressures and, worst of all, while U.S. systems would be withdraw without an agreement, the Soviet Union would be permitted to maintain its INF systems".


    https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP90M00005R000300070027-8.pdf

    You can personally control almost any previously classified document of the time analysing political impact of INF deployment in Europe and its sustainability and you will read always the same elements : US and European authorities was perfectly aware that it was effectively a time gamble.
    In substance European Chiefs of State would have supported the militarily and technologically very weak hand of USA, with Pershing and GLCM, in the hope that someway, with some strong aid from within the Kremlin, CCCP would accept a table of arm ban of theirs widely superior system before internal pressure would render that effectively impossible and potentially deadly for alliance's tenue. The same situation was considered for not signing of the Treaty to obtain even greater counter-gains.

    Exit from INF Treaty was a largely expected and, for a side, even partially "forced" decision by part of US that begun to be explored when, more than a decade ago, first informations on technological trasformation program of strategic deterrence systems in the Federation permeated in the US.

    Like in the '80 years USA will be forced, one more time, to use in this losing technological struggle the unique real weapon at theirs disposition : geopolitical influence, but that is linked to a significative amount of enormous risks of what American are perfectly aware.
    The role of an oculated Federation policy will be to continue to consistently maintain the position that ,in absence of US INF systems on foreign soil, Federation will abstain to place against those nations its own INF systems (that incidentally greatly surpass US ones on all cardynal parameters); this will effectively force the US to obligate its "allies" to host its systems in order to amintain any military relevance in this way triggering a true time bomb for NATO.

    Year after year, introduction of new category of strategic systems, offensive but even more defensive ones, with possibilities widely beyond the possibilities of any western counterparts, and aimed proposals to those nations to resolve the question in an European-Russian Federation bilateral format will render the growing resentment for the US's conferement of those enormous existence's risk entirely on the shoulders of its "allies" unbearable and slowly, but inexorably, decree the sunset of the sustainment element of US system: geo-political, military and economical influence on Europe.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:51 pm

    kvs wrote: I think a nuclear, regional "MLRS" concept would be worthwhile.   Getting the intel to localize every offensive complex is improbable.  Just
    glass anything that moves.     That will teach NATO once and forever.

    The MLRS approach maybe the next objective. They should probably produce micro-cruise missiles (subsonic to hypersonic) that could be launched from existing Smerch/Tornado-S launchers, ideally to get ranges between 600-1000km range. The turbofan engine for the Kh-55 family of cruise missiles (P95-300) diameter is only slightly larger than the 300mm Smerch/Tornado-S launch tube (at 315 mm), they could shave 15mm off the outside casing of the engine. They would have to develop the MLRS cruise missile where the turbofan engine was embedded in the body of the cruise missile (as opposed to normally being externally attached), with air intake ducts conformally embedded in the body as well. The drawback is that part of the internal space dedicated to fuel storage would be lost, so in turn a loss of some range, however part of the range loss would be mitigated by reduction in drag by not having the the turbofan externally attached.

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