Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22398
    Points : 22942
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:32 am

    I think it is probably just cheaper to make lots and lots of 4,500km range cruise missiles and with the new universal launcher they are working on for their navy ...USKS-M that can be loaded with cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, and also SAMs of all types... the ship mounted version has 8 main launch tubes but split that in half and have four launch tubes that would fit into a 40ft Standard shipping container... you could put those all over the place on land... in fact every major Russian military base could have them all over the place as a SAM supporting system and also potentially a cruise missile launching infrastructure for tens of thousands of cruise missiles able to attack the EU.

    Together with hypersonic IRCMs that can take out air defences and HQs and comms centres the follow up cruise missiles can use Glonass so as soon as they cross out of Russian territory they can arm their nuke warheads so any aircraft or SAM shoots them down and boom anyway.... these cruise missiles will be super cheap because they only require basic guidance to hit city sized targets with powerful nuke warheads...

    Keep the MLRS with their anti armour top attack munitions to deal with any armoured forces NATO might be able to form up... they could probably used as a general damage weapon against ships too I suppose...
    thegopnik
    thegopnik

    Posts : 52
    Points : 56
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  thegopnik on Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:09 am

    Old sources here is one on 2015 https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/maks-russias-hypersonic-scramjet-experiment-could-fly-by-416192/

    "Russia’s Gromov Flight Research Institute (LII) expects its latest GLL-AP-02 hypersonic scramjet test vehicle to fly in “three or four years,” with officials telling Flightglobal that funding constraints and technical issues have slowed progress."

    https://tass.com/defense/1034559

    "In accordance with Russia's State Armament Program for 2018-2027, Su-57 jet fighters will be equipped with hypersonic missiles. The jet fighters will receive missiles with characteristics similar to that of the Kinzhal missiles, but with inter-body placement and smaller size," the source said.

    The source did not provide details on specific characteristics of the new missiles or clarifications on when they will be tried."

    https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2014/6/2/2351/

    "The latest version of a missile for Russian fifth-generation fighter PAK FA will be developed by 2016, CEO of Tactical Missiles Corporation, Boris Obnosov, said at KADEX 2014, press-service of Russian Ministry of Industry and Trade reports.

    «We are working closely with Sukhoi design bureau and we have created a joint working group. All the records of proceedings and other documents have been approved by both parties, the mock-ups will be manufactured on time, the program is on schedule – the development will be completed by 2016», - Boris Obnosov said, adding that this refers to the latest version of Kh-74M2 cruise missile.

    «It is a hard work, testing is very intense and sometimes even Akhtubinsk State Proving Flying Center is unable to handle the workload», - the corporation’s CEO added."

    So it seems it might be more than likely some Scramjet missiles might be shown in this upcoming airshow. I wonder what are the chances of a scramjet air to ground missile would be in this airshow along with its size if it would fit into the internal weapons bay. If that happens I am going to have fun shitposting this image "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Https%3A%2F%2Fapi.thedrive.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F05%2Fasdad111.jpg%3Fquality%3D85?w=1440&auto=compress%2Cformat&ixlib=js-1.4 than comparing it to an SU-57 without an external carry because I have heard F-35 fans take alot of pride in stealth and this would be a huge insult.
    avatar
    Arrow

    Posts : 448
    Points : 448
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Interesting about Kindzal from Quora

    Post  Arrow on Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:14 pm

    Interesting about Kindzal from Quora

    "Every time we hear about a new anti-ship missile, Quora is filled with questions like this. Same happened with supersonic AShM, hypersonic DF-21 and now with Kinzhal. Questions like this assumes CSG to reach enemy shores, sit idle and wait for enemy to launch a barrage of AShMs. That’s not how it works in the real world.

    When facing a threat such as Russian/Chinese ASBMs, CSG’s primary role will be to neutralise the threat before entering into their effective* engagement envelope. Mobile launchers (TEL) or Air bases operating Mig-31 fleet will be the prime targets. A CSG would be greeting them with long range Tomahawks and PGMs from VLO platforms. This is the first step to severely degrade enemy’s offensive capabilities.

    The US Navy wasn’t really sitting idle for last 2 decades. This is SM-3 Block IA.

    It is officially designated to engage Intermediate-range Ballistic missiles (IRBMs).

    Yet in 2008 a single SM-3 Block IA was used to intercept a malfunctioning satellite travelling at Mach 23 in a degrading orbit.

    US missile hits 'toxic satellite'

    That is pretty much equivalent to an ICBM in mid-course. A hypersonic missile refers to Mach 5+ and the type mentioned in the question (Kinzhal) doesn’t exceed Mach 10. So those having doubt about a hypersonic missile being somehow un-stoppable, you’re greatly mistaken.

    You don’t see the US Navy boasting about SM-3 like the PLA’s DF-21 and Russia’s Kinzhal, and we don’t have questions along the lines of ‘Does SM-3 makes ICBMs obsolete’. That’s how fundamentally wrong the premise of this question is.

    A hypersonic ballistic missile like Kinzhal or DF-21 in many ways are much easier targets than an ICBM and sure difficult in some ways. They supposedly can ‘manoeuvre’ in flight/fly at un-conventional trajectory but there are serious limitations to both. It’s often very wrongly stated that such manoeuvring hypersonic missiles are “immune” to Air Defences – that’s fundamentally pure non-sense. They might difficult to intercept but are no-where close to being impossible/immune.

    In-flight Manoeuvring

    First of all, Kinzhal is very likely an air-launched version of Iskander Tactical ballistic missile (TBM), which has been in service from 2006.

    Kinzhal on Mi-31 (top) and Iskander-M (bottom)

    Putin's Air-Launched Hypersonic Weapon Appears To Be A Modified Iskander Ballistic Missile

    So it isn’t a hypersonic cruise missile following a near flat trajectory. The air launched version increases the range of the missile and Mig-31 was selected for its high-altitude launch. It is still a ballistic missile and by nature still follows a ballistic trajectory for most path.

    The problem with ‘manoeuvring’ in flight is that at such speeds, every deviation from an optimal flight will require dealing with serious aerodynamic forces – which in turn will affect the missile’s range. The more you deviate (follow un-conventional trajectory), the smaller will be your range. This is why such manoeuvring ballistic missiles only perform evasive manoeuvres in the terminal phase.

    From Kinzhal’s promo during Putin’s speech on Mach 1.




    " This confirms that for about 90% of the flight path, Kinzhal follows nearly* a ballistic trajectory (somewhat depressed/quasi-ballistic) and performs high g manoeuvres only when near the target (Terminal phase). This makes it relatively* easy to engage for most part of its flight time. Also, it has an altitude of 50 km (as with Iskander-M) – this puts a radar horizon of 950 km for radars on Aegis ships.

    This is important because SPY-1D(v) and upcoming SPY-6 radars have become much more powerful in last decade due to their regional Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) role. Their detection of hypersonic missiles inside the atmosphere (covered in plasma – severely increasing RCS) in most cases will only be limited by radar horizon. This is without accounting for detection and tracking via other platforms like E-2D and F-35s. In fact, such hypersonic missiles can actually be tracked via existing space based network (IR satellites).

    Terminal Evasive Manoeuvres

    Russia claims that Kinzhal would make few evasive manoeuvers at terminal phase. Those high-g ‘pull-up’ would definitely make interception more difficult. But at the same time, such high-g manoeuvers will significantly bleed energy and this combined with relatively low (i.e. medium) altitude (denser atmosphere: much more drag) will severely impact the missile’s speed. Consider this, most Russian Mach 3 AShMs with 14 km max. ceiling suffers from 25–40% speed loss in low altitude mode. (P-700 Granit, Kh-31, P-270 Moskit, etc.)

    How much speed would a Mach 10 missile with 50 km ceiling loose when it makes evasive manoeuvres at medium altitude? This is important because a hypersonic missile near Mach 5 could possibly be engaged by ESSM. The ESSM Block 1 has already been tested against Mach 4 target drones (AQM-37C, GQM-163 Coyote). Thereby, not only increasing the number of effective interceptors the fleet can use but also making Kinzhal vulnerable to interception by more Air Defences.

    While high g terminal manoeuvres may reduce the pK of incoming interceptor (SAM) – it indirectly increases the engagement window. So the CSG would get more time to launch more interceptors + provide course-correction updates to the already outbound interceptor(s).

    Here’s the thing – Speed kills manoeuvrability. At hypersonic speeds, the forces involved can easily tear apart the missile. Also, the missile needs to detect and track mobile target amidst all. All of these severely limits manoeuvrability. Besides, NATO have been facing the threat of Mach 3–4.6 Soviet AShMs making terminal evasive manoeuvres since 1960s (Kh-22).

    In December 2016, SM-6 Dual I was first tested against a “complex” MRBM target. This was a direct test against ‘manoeuvrable’ ASh ballistic missile (ASBM) such as DF-21 or Kinzhal. SM-6’s explosive warhead was reportedly useful against such targets as a direct hit wasn’t necessary. In August 2017, SM-6 was repeatedly tested against similar complex BM.

    Navy, Missile Defense Agency Succeed During SM-6 Ballistic Missile Defense Test - USNI News

    With growing threat from China’s ASBM (DF-21) in the Pacific, US Navy started working on innovative approach to break the already complicated kill-chain of ASBMs such as using radar-absorbing carbon fibre clouds to generate a smoke screen obscuring the Carrier

    t present Hypersonic missiles are only effective in striking time-bound strategic land targets. The cost and complexity involved makes them ineffective even for a serious SEAD/DEAD role on land based IADS, let alone attacking a CSG. They’ll certainly increase the threat but unless you’re putting a nuclear warhead, there are other means that are more effective at the job. Maybe the biggest impact of such Hypersonic missiles is gaining propaganda points by creating a notion of being “immune” to Air Defences and so far, it appears to be pretty good at it.

    Just like bullet-proof vests don’t make guns obsolete; irrespective of how threats evolve, Carriers because of their strategic and tactical role in Naval Aviation won’t be going anywhere. Given the current scenario, they’re not even at any distinct disadvantage.."
    "

    Very good point of view that hypersonic weapon is not a game changer.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2345
    Points : 2343
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Hole on Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:37 pm

    What a piece of BS.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 4052
    Points : 4042
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Isos on Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:12 pm

    That's funny how those US fanboys think their standard missiles are 100% Pk.
    PhSt
    PhSt

    Posts : 126
    Points : 132
    Join date : 2019-04-02

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  PhSt on Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:35 pm

    Hole wrote:What a piece of BS.

    American PlGS always BlTCH about Russia's so-called Disinformation, but when Americans do it, it is called "Free Flow of Information" LMAO! Laughing Laughing Laughing
    Singular_Transform
    Singular_Transform

    Posts : 739
    Points : 729
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:29 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    Very good point of view that hypersonic weapon is not a game changer.

    Yeah, the internet is full with this.

    The US missiles can not be killed by foreign SAMs, but the USA SAMs can shoot down all non USA made missiles : )
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1027
    Points : 1068
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  dino00 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:12 pm

    Isos wrote:That's funny how those US fanboys think their standard missiles are 100% Pk.

    I like the part where mig 31k airbases are destroyed by tomahawks.

    The US navy will not stand idle, but Russian air defense systems will clown

    Our arrow never misses the target, always garbage.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2345
    Points : 2343
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Hole on Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:20 pm

    "A CSG would be greeting them with long range Tomahawks and PGMs from VLO platforms. This is the first step to severely degrade enemy’s offensive capabilities."

    You know, all these Konteiner, Resonanz and Podsolnukh radars are build exactly for such an attack. They can track ships and follow launched cruise missiles, supply air defence systems with information about them. Not to mention all these Nemo-M, Protivnik, Podlyot, Kasta-2-3, Gamma-S1, Niobium-SV and some other mobile radar systems.

    But even if Russia didn´t decide to shoot down these magical cruise missiles a few hundred kilometres outside of his airspace, Tomahwaks travel with 800 - 900km/h, a MiG-31 can fly with 3.000km/h. The MiG-31´s could start and bring the Kinzahls into launch position before the cruise missiles reached half the way to their targets.

    The SM-3 can only hit straight traveling ballistic targets. Useless against Iskander, Kinzahl and low flying cruise and anti-ship missiles.

    The SM-6 was tested four or five times against mediocre targets. Under the best possible circumstances, as always by the murican MIC. It uses the radar of the AIM-120 which can be fooled quite easily by non-western ECM systems.


    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 4052
    Points : 4042
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Isos on Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:11 pm

    Our arrow never misses the target, always garbage.

    Since they tested the r73 against their f-16 they don't stop talking about their aim 9X or whatever variant they came up with by trying to copy the r-73. It ended up not being able to destroy a syrian su-22 bomber that has no ECM, no  missile warning system and I'm not even sure it had flares.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22398
    Points : 22942
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:37 am

    Hahahaha... Arrow has found the secret... of course all US current air defence systems can shoot down Zircon and any US official saying different just wants more funding to waste to develop new more complex but not effective defence systems to counter it.

    US carrier groups will be able to strike MiG-31 airbases from 10,000km using Tomahawk missiles... Tomahawk missiles with less range than Kinzhal air launched anti ship missiles... Tomahawk missiles that were routinely shot down in Syria before the Syrians had an IADS... they got 75 out of 103 fired just with individual Syrian air defence batteries that were not integrated into any IADS when the west pretended there was a chemical attack.

    They wont launch another cruise missile attack now because they know it would be totally defeated... but the US will find some way of penetrating Russian air defence and what... taking out the runways? Taking out the ammo boxes the kinzhals are stored in?

    As an added bonus with the INF treaty gone the Russians can now build IRBMs in the 3,000-4,000km range like those Chinese anti ship ballistic missiles with the purpose of dealing with US surface ships.

    Yeah... merican forces just need Stinger missiles to defeat Kinzhal and Zircon... but the critical thing is that they need to be pointing their missile in exactly the right direction and they have to launch their missile at exactly the right time, because in four seconds either missile will enter and then exit the effective engagement envelope of the Stinger...
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1629
    Points : 1631
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:29 am

    Arrow wrote:blah blah blah blah.

    The forum clown taking idiocy to new heights Laughing
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22398
    Points : 22942
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:31 am

    Amusing that he can sleep at night knowing all the bullshit his government is doing in his name around the world, but what upsets him is the very idea that Russia might have a system the US can't counter...

    All the lies and revenge... causing millions to suffer from wars they start so they can buy up oil assets cheaper when the war ends, and to get contracts to rebuild the country they are happy to spend big money destroying... as I have mentioned... instead of firing half a million dollars worth of Javelin missile at an Afghan in a tree shooting at them with a rifle they could offer to give him $100K US if he gives up his gun and returns home to his family and not fight in this war any more... kill him and there will be ten lined up to revenge his death... bribe him and 2-3 will ask for the same deal... and it will be worth paying them too... the problem is that in this case the money from war would be going in to the pockets of poor people and not the already very rich and powerful... so that could never be considered a solution.

    Another radical idea is to give poor people money. Not billions or millions... but enough to get them out of the poverty spiral... buy a house, get a real job and allow them to dig themselves out of the holes they are in. The money they spend will help the local economy and create more jobs... but the stereotype today is that poor people are lazy and stupid and don't deserve to live well. Certainly a lot of people on the street are mentally ill and not getting any treatment from society or anyone, but there are plenty of others who made mistakes, made poor decisions, or were just unlucky and found themselves in a position where they couldn't ask for help or there was no help on offer. The US government was happy to bail out banks, but they didn't spend a cent to save the home owners or their houses... and you can bet your ass that those banks took their cake and ate it too... they accepted those 750 billion but they also kicked those home owners out of their houses too.

    But apparently it is the poor guy that is the criminal and the billion dollar profit banks are not to blame for anything... no one went to jail... they didn't even lose their multi million dollar bonuses... for doing such a great job... but then we have a free media and they were on the case to track down the criminals... well... actually.... no, they didn't did they...

    The west isn't worth saving... it doesn't see anything wrong with how it is now... well except for all the people protesting around the world... usually started by something else but continue because most governments are the same and there is no real choice between them... different faces similar anti people policies... all pro big business and pro war... how did that happen?

    The kids today whining about climate change... if the west doesn't change who gives a fuck about rising sea water?
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1629
    Points : 1631
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:28 am

    Well said. I don't disagree with a single word.

    Sponsored content

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 13 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:02 am