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    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:44 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Hypersonic means high supersonic... generally meaning mach 5 plus in this day and age.


    not really, high supersonic is below 5Ma , alwasy




    GB wrote:Both Kinzhal and Iskander manouver during their flight to their target making interception very very difficult.

    indeed it is very difficult but not impossible. there is finite number of trajectories warhead/missile can choose form. The closer to target then number of trajectories decrease thus with high computational power and highly maneuvering SAM it might be possible. Of course that's why hypersonc missiles will unlikely be launched aloe but in salvos.




    A MaRV uses its manouvering performance to manouver away from the warhead bus to hit targets well beyond the trajectory of the ICBM it was launched from... it wont be dodging bullets all the way down...


    not really in Yars case at least

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    GB wrote:
    But this is not a type of hypersonic weapon like Avangard and Cirkon.

    Actually it is, the difference is that Avangard is launched from an ICBM, while Zircon is a replacement for ship launched Onyx missiles and also Granit missiles and uses scramjet propulsion and will be powered from launch to impact with target unlike Kinzhal which is rocket powered.


    taking into account that we dont know hwat is powering Avangard I'd be prudent is statements that Avangard is srcamjet powered. BTW top altitude for scramjet to wrk is ~75km and speed (between 12-25Ma) according to wiki.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:40 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:


    A MaRV uses its manouvering performance to manouver away from the warhead bus to hit targets well beyond the trajectory of the ICBM it was launched from... it wont be dodging bullets all the way down...


    not really in Yars case at least

    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 11 Rs-24_10


    No it's not. Where in the world did you come to the conclusion that the skipping trajectory is a product of MaRV a technology which is designed purely to improve accuracy and not producing defensive maneuvers? The skipping trajectory was in fact carried on to Avantegarde (as confirmed by Sergei Ivanov) which supports the theory that Topol-M/Yars-24 are hypersonic gliders:

    Russian official Sergei Ivanov, smiling, compared the flight of this weapon with a pebble jumping from the surface of the water.
    https://topwar.ru/151916-zapadnye-smi-kak-dopustili-chtoby-u-strany-benzokolonki-pojavilsja-avangard.html

    MaRV is ancient (nearly 50 years old) technology that's horribly outdated. It was designed to improve ICBM accuracy from several kilometers to several hundred meters, but has been greatly superseded by satellite guidance (GPS/GLONASS) which could accurately hit targets tens of meters (as opposed to hundreds of meters), and inertial guidance which is in fact the currently the preferred method of guidance by MOD. Inertial guidance has been crowned as the best among the three because it has by far the highest ECM noise immunity (it doesn't require external sensors that could be jammed/spoofed), it's just as accurate as satellite guidance and it's cheap enough to be ubiquitously fitted to attack aircraft like the Su-24's (Gefest-T upgrade).
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:02 am

    according to wiki.

    Yeah, according to wiki Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 in an unprovoked attack on innocent georgians...
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    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    according to wiki.

    Yeah,  according to wiki Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 in an unprovoked attack on innocent georgians...

    Even the EU report on the confrontation acknowledges Georgia's guilt. Wiki is edited in real time by all sorts of interested parties
    that have all sorts of agendas. Never take anything from this toilet without a ton of salt and independent confirmation.

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:50 am


    Even the EU report on the confrontation acknowledges Georgia's guilt. Wiki is edited in real time by all sorts of interested parties
    that have all sorts of agendas. Never take anything from this toilet without a ton of salt and independent confirmation.

    That is what I am saying... wiki on its own is no good as a source.

    The THAAD and PAC-3 patriot and their other ABM systems were developed at a time when the ABM treaty was in force... the ICBM Marvs being talked about were developed at a time when ABM systems were restricted to a limited number of weapons around a single target (in the case of the Soviet system that location was Moscow).

    The purpose of MaRVs was not to evade extensive nation wide ABM systems or mobile ABM systems... it had more to do with attacking much more widely separated targets on the path of the ICBM they were fitted to.

    A standard MRV held all the warheads until a relatively short distance from the target and then released the RVs so they landed all around the point of aim to spread damage for a large area target like a city. Three 150KT warheads spread out could actually do a lot more damage to a normal city than one really big warhead because the destruction caused by nuclear weapons is highly centralised a 10MT bomb does not destroy 10 times the area of a 1MT bomb, it is like a cluster bomb... even a small 1kg cluster munition will kill, but a 500kg bomb doesn't kill over 500 times the area of a 1kg bomb. The effect is that 20-30 x 2kg bombs spread evenly over an area is more effective at killing people in the open than one 500kg bomb.

    The only time really big bombs are more useful is with protected targets where a 500kg bomb will kill people inside buildings with a direct hit whereas dropping hundreds of 1kg bombs will damage the roof and top floors but people 5-6 floors below will be fine.

    As the power of warheads increased but more importantly accuracy increased smaller warheads could be used against separate targets so MIRVs enabled different targets along the flight path of the weapon to be engaged... as the warhead bus went past an RV could be released to hit it... though the target couldn't be too far off the flight path because the whole warhead bus needs to be manouvered like a bomber to send the warhead on the right trajectory and then manouver back for the next targets.

    The idea behind MaRV is that the warheads don't travel in a warhead bus and each head towards their target from the start... not to evade interception but to improve accuracy and the distance to the targets they can engage.

    Missiles and warheads developed since the end of the ABM treaty are now getting manouvering stages that are intended to to more than just improve accuracy or extend the reach to targets out of the missiles way... they are intended to evade enemy defences...

    Iskander was one of the first because Patriot and PAC-3 patriot would make them sitting ducks if they followed a simple ballistic path... so they don't.

    Yes, with some super computers you might be able to predict what flight path options the hypersonic warheads might take, but the options would include hundreds of different paths, so you would need to launch hundreds of interceptor missiles of which only perhaps one or two might have any chance of interception... but if you have 10 missiles coming in that are timed so that the interceptors launched at the first missile can't hang around for the next target then you would need to launch thousands of interception missiles still with a fairly ordinary chance of success.

    For instance... if incoming target flys one path... all the way to target then interception can take place... but any deviation from that path anywhere from detection to impact means a potential new interception location... and that target could choose to deviate in multiple ways including climbing, or descending, turning left or right, speeding up or slowing down... or any combination of any two or three or four or five or six things, and it can do any combination of those as well... it can speed up and slow down... it can turn left or right or it can turn left AND right, it can turn left and slow down and then right and then climb and then speed up... the actual flight path cannot be predicted even with a super computer, because as fast as you calculate its options it can be manouvering in ways that make all previous calculations useless and all already launched missiles ineffective...

    A volley of nuclear detonations is about the only option to assure an intercept which could do more damage than the incoming missiles because you will be setting these nukes off over your own forces...

    The British Defence minister wanted to include hypersonic manouvering missiles with nuclear weapons and bind their deployment in treaties... is that because he thinks they can already intercept them at will?
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    Post  kvs on Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:27 pm

    I find it strange how outdated US missiles are. Russia was working on bleeding edge missile tech even during the 1990s when workers were not paid or got paid in barter goods. This fact underlies the current advanced state of Russian missile systems. By contrast the US is selling the THAAD to Japan and others as some worthwhile system. I know that the US has introduced new missile systems over the last 20 years, but their specs are underwhelming. Now they are scrambling to develop supersonic-class anti-ship missiles (supposedly they will
    just jump over supersonic to hypersonic in one leap). Their ICBMs are ancient as well. For the self-anointed masters of the universe
    this is extremely strange considering how pauper Russia is doing in the missile tech realm.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:28 pm

    kvs wrote:I find it strange how outdated US missiles are.   Russia was working on bleeding edge missile tech even during the 1990s when workers were not paid or got paid in barter goods.   This fact underlies the current advanced state of Russian missile systems.  By contrast the US is selling the THAAD to Japan and others as some worthwhile system.   I know that the US has introduced new missile systems over the last 20 years, but their specs are underwhelming.   Now they are scrambling to develop supersonic-class anti-ship missiles (supposedly they will
    just jump over supersonic to hypersonic in one leap).   Their ICBMs are ancient as well.   For the self-anointed masters of the universe
    this is extremely strange considering how pauper Russia is doing in the missile tech realm.


    Lets further investigate this. As I already mentioned the U.S. had access to parts of S-300V by the 'compromiser' Boorish Yelpsin, had access to Slovakian and Greek S-300's via NATO exercises, has had strong influx of scientists and engineers from Asia (to make up for their brain drain at home), had the luxury of having modern digital electronics and more than adequate funding, but yet PAC-3 still has overall inferior characteristics to S-300PS, a system introduced in 1979, and it's development started from the mid 1960's. That in itself isn't the biggest kicker, the biggest damnation against the Patriot series is the fact that Raytheon has completely given up on improving the PAC-3 series, and completely outsourced the development of PAC-4 to the Israeli based Rafael concern. A country of 320 million with the biggest military budget in history, is completely incapable of meeting the needs of their nations aerospace defense, and is reliant on a country of 6 million (1/53rd the population) to meet those very needs....the same country that 1/6th of their population (including many of their scientists and engineers) are ex-USSR.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:50 pm

    We need to take into consideration a few things:
    1 - Russia has export variants of everything. Meaning it won't compromise their own specific models. Even then, their non export models made its way to the west (V and PMU/PMU1) and it didn't lose a threat to Russia. What matters is it's IFF transponders which Russia does not give away or share.
    2 - It's S-400 basic. Meaning it doesn't carry Nebo M or newer AESA radar systems that work in conjunction of S-400.
    3 - This system is same as one sold to China and being sold to India and offered to other nations. The only nation's that may be pissed off would be those nation's if the "secrets" are sent to USA. But yet China who has them, is same what India is getting yet India is OK with their rival China having same system. It's because, not same IFF so there isn't much either side will learn or can do against such a system.

    Hence why Russia said they could sell this system to USA without it compromising themselves.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:30 am

    And just as importantly surely of all the countries around the world no one knows the secrets of the S-400 system better than the Russians, yet China and India and Turkey seem to be OK with buying a system to defend themselves that Russia knows inside and out.

    Not to mention most of the new Iranian SAMs are basically modified versions of American missiles... HAWK, Phoenix, Standard, etc etc.
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    Post  kvs on Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:And just as importantly surely of all the countries around the world no one knows the secrets of the S-400 system better than the Russians, yet China and India and Turkey seem to be OK with buying a system to defend themselves that Russia knows inside and out.

    Not to mention most of the new Iranian SAMs are basically modified versions of American missiles... HAWK, Phoenix, Standard, etc etc.

    It proves how difficult it is to design and build such missile systems from scratch. If it was a matter of money (like a lot of fanboi
    lemmings think) then everyone and his dog would have their own indigenous world class systems. That Russia stands out in this field
    in spite of the 1990s super depression and the transition to a whole new economic and political system (as if that was trivial) shows
    what its level really is. It ain't no mud hut banana republic light years behind the west. The west always underestimates Russia
    and always loses...

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    Post  Arrow on Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:20 am

    Some sources said that Kindzal can fly with speed 12M
    https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20180312/1516134267.html
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:15 pm

    Arrow wrote:Some sources said that Kindzal can fly with speed 12M
    https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20180312/1516134267.html

    If true it's definitely just unsafe speed with risk of disintegration, like Mach 27 on Avangard

    Missiles have speed limit too, in this case it's Mach 10

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:22 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Some sources said that Kindzal can fly with speed 12M
    https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20180312/1516134267.html

    If true it's definitely just unsafe speed with risk of disintegration, like Mach 27 on Avangard

    Missiles have speed limit too, in this case it's Mach 10


    Mach 10 could be the average speed, but the speed from a steep dive could be higher.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:12 am

    Kinzhal is an engine driven vehicle, and when it is launched it will be initially accelerated with a solid rocket motor to get it into the air and moving and up to a certain altitude... from there it will have a scramjet motor to power it.

    Now depending on the distance to the target and the type of target and the flight route chosen for the attack the missile might try different tactics to get to the target in one piece. If it is launched out at sea and there are no radar signals between it and the target 1,000km away it might climb to very high altitude above any SAMs or interceptors reach and just cruise along at mach 7 or 8 and conserve fuel... as it travels of course it is burning fuel so it is getting lighter and lighter. As it approaches the target area it might go full throttle and climb even higher, but now it has burned off a ton of fuel so it is much much lighter so at full throttle at high altitude it might be able to accelerate to a higher speed than mach 10... certainly if it is flying at mach 10 at 40km altitude then if it then corkscrew dives on the target then it will reach rather higher speeds than mach 12... the Kh-22M flew at mach 3 at 20km altitude but when it dived on target it reached speeds of mach 4.2 at sea level... I would expect the Mach 4.5 Kh-32 to do better from a dive from 40km, and I would expect the Kinzhal to do even better than that from what ever height it operates from.
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    Post  Arrow on Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:29 am

    GarryB why do you think that Kindzal use in second stage scramjet engine? This missile is air launch Iskander. This is one stage solid fuel missile.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:24 am

    Sorry, my mistake.

    The Iskander is a development of the Oka, which was a cold war replacement for the Scud with a flight range of about 500km with a nuke warhead (the lightest option), a 450km range with a conventional warhead, and a 300km range with a 750kg cluster munition warhead.

    The OKA used external rear grid fins for flight control which reduced range but made it harder to intercept with air defence systems like SAMs.

    The Iskander uses control fins inside the exhaust stream of the rocket motor and small external control fins that offer much less drag during flight.

    With improvements in solid rocket motor propellent the range of the Iskander should have been greatly increased over the OKA, but it has not because the INF treaty limited its max range, so they have increased the manouvering performance to make it more immune to interception at the cost of dramatically reducing the flight range of the missile to keep it within INF limits.

    Air launch of the Kinzhal means it is not and will not be limited by the INF treaty that does not apply to ship or air launched weapons.

    BTW we have no information on the propellent used in either Kinzhal or Iskander, and the thrust vectoring control vanes inside the rocket motor suggest a dual fuel arrangement to maximise performance.


    If you think about it... most sky rockets with a single tube of black powder fuel roar up into the air and then coast for a bit and then fall back down... not a very efficient use of propulsion really.

    Several long range rockets have different propellants baked like a cake... if you think of a two layer cake that is pretty much all it is... the first layer is high sugar high energy fuel that burns extremely fast and generates the most acceleration and energy... once that has burned through the next layer burns slower but for much much longer.

    The point being the slower burning fuel generates less thrust but burns for much much longer than the higher energy fuel.

    If you were to fill a missile the size of Iskander or Kinzhal with only the high energy fuel then the burn time would be measured in seconds but the extra energy wouldn't help very much because there are physical limits to how fast that design can move through the air at a specific altitude or temperature so once it reaches that top speed the extra energy doesn't do any good and is basically wasted.

    By using two types of fuel... one to get the missile up and moving which requires a lot of energy, and a second type that offsets drag and helps the missile maintain speed for much longer you get a more efficient use of propulsion... not as much as with a jet engine but rather better than with solid fuelled rockets of fixed performance.

    Of course if you put rocket layers on top of each other like layers of fuel in a sky rocket you would need very strong side walls to take the pressure and heat of the rocket fuel burning so what they do is design it to burn from the inside out... bake a core tube of fuel and then bake a tube of fuel that goes around the outside. That way when you start the rocket motor you need most power which means surface area so you cut a star shape up the centre of the rocket to maximise the surface area and ignite it so it burns rapidly... expanding but blowing gas down the tube and out the bottom the heat and pressure pushing out on the remaining propellant so the walls of the missile can be thinner and lighter... as it burns outwards it burns out of the high pressure high energy fuel and starts burning the lower energy stuff... so instead of having high energy fuel burning for 30 seconds, you have high energy fuel burning for 20 seconds and then a low energy fuel burning for 2 minutes. The missile travels further for the same mass and the lower cal fuel is likely cheaper too.
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    Post  Arrow on Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:04 am

    So the Iskander and Kindzal engine burns through a larger part of the flight? It gives you the possibility of many maneuvers throughout the entire flight. Small external control fins not provide such maneuvers?
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:17 am

    From what I have seen of the small fins... I rather doubt they move... they are for stabilisation rather than steering control.

    The missile moves very fast through the air but those external fins are tiny and would not change the direction of the missile very far or very fast.

    If you look up the missile that preceded the Iskander... the OKA, it has enormous grid fins for flight control...
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    Post  Arrow on Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:05 am

    So how a missile performing maneuvers during the flight and in the terminal phase. It would be difficult to work on a rocket engine in the terminal phase?
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:40 am

    The reason the Iskander has a limit of less than 500km is because the fuel still has to be burning for it to manouver... otherwise you could just loft it upwards and have it fly much greater distances... but it would be much easier to shoot down if you did... and likely rather less accurate.
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    Post  Arrow on Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:14 pm

    So North Korea has a quasi-balistic missile ? Some sourcces said that during last test KN-23 missile floght in very low trajectory and maneuvers.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:16 am

    Manouvering is not energy efficient... most countries are going for range when they design and build missiles... range and accuracy are the main concerns generally for most countries.

    The thing is that with Russia, range is not an issue because since the cold war until very recently they were not allowed missiles with a range from 500 to 5,500km in range so extra range was actually counter productive for their shorter ranged missiles.

    With improvements in ABM technology, most particularly anti theatre ballistic missile technology like the S-300 and S-400 SAM types, not to mention Patriot and THAAD, they realised that range was not so important but accuracy and actually reaching the target were the most important things and so they explored missiles that could evade air defences as being the focus.

    I suspect the North Koreans and the Chinese are also thinking the same thing as their missiles already reach SK and Japan so extra range in that sense is meaningless, but now they are clearly thinking range and accuracy alone are not enough they need to be able to manouver to ensure they get to their targets... which is only understandable really.
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    Post  Arrow on Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:10 am

    he thing is that with Russia, range is not an issue because since the cold war until very recently they were not allowed missiles with a range from 500 to 5,500km in range so extra range was actually counter productive for their shorter ranged missiles. wrote:


    Now is the problem. Tomorrow is the end of INF. Need for maneuvering maneuvers and fast, customs and increased range.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:23 am

    But now they have much more efficient scramjet engines to solve the problems of fuel management.

    Rocket fuel is useful because of its high energy and the fact that if you want to have something more faster than mach 3 then it needed a rocket motor in the past to achieve and sustain that speed... if you wanted mach 3 then a ramjet could do the job... in fact up to about mach 4 or 5 you could use a ramjet efficiently for propulsion, but for higher speeds there is only rocket fuel... until now.

    Scramjet means the higher speeds are acheivable in fact they are rather much more efficient than a rocket motor because a rocket motor needs both fuel and an oxygenator for that fuel to burn rapidly... as a general rule of thumb you need by weight about three times more oxygen than fuel for a rocket motor so a 3 ton missile might have 500kgs of fuel and 1,500kgs of material that reacts and generates enormous amounts of oxygen to burn the fuel rapidly in a violent high energy reaction to push the rocket along through the air. A scramjet will need rather more than 500kgs of fuel to generate the same amount of thrust... but it wont require 2 tons in total of fuel and oxygen because it scoops up the oxygen as it moves along.

    More importantly it can change thrust like a liquid fuelled rocket can to optimise the fuel burn to fly further.

    Many think the Soviets stuck with liquid fuelled rockets because they were backward, but in actual fact liquid fuels are generally much more powerful than solid fuels... improvements in solid fuel technology has narrowed the gap a bit, but liquid fuels can be throttled up or down or even shut down for optimal flight range performance, whereas solid fuels are on or off and once on they generally can't be turned off.

    Imagine a trip in a car... there are two routes to the destination... one up a hill and then down a long slope to the destination and another on a long straight road to the destination. If your car is rocket powered then climbing up the hill burns a lot of energy very quickly but once at the top it is just a case of rolling down to the target location so the fact that the rocket stops at the top of the hill is not a problem. If you tried to take the straight road without the climb you could get to a higher top speed but you would run out of momentum on the flat straight road and run out of energy before you got there even though the road would be shorter than climbing the hill first.
    With an engine you wouldn't take the hill route because it is further and slower, you would just use a high gear low revs drive on the straight flat road to the target.

    The point is that now that the INF treaty is history they can work on new Scramjet models... for land based missiles they have TOPOLs so distance is not a problem even with rocket propulsion... the range is easy to achieve and a bit of extra weight or another stage for extra manouvering fuel is easy... in fact a two stage missile with a big solid rocket booster to get the whole weapon moving with a scramjet main portion and a manouvering IRBM will actually be relatively cheap and simple and effective and cover all of the EU and the middle east and asia if need be from Russian territory... in fact Alaska and most of the west coast of the US would be in range from the Russian far east and most of northern US and canada from the arctic bases...
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    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 11 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Arrow on Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:54 pm

    So Kindzal and Cirkon in the terminal phase also keep speeds close to the maximum about 9 and 10 M ?

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    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex - Page 11 Empty Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

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