MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

MiG-21 Bison



In 1961, the Indian Air Force (IAF) opted to purchase the MiG-21 over several other Western competitors because the Soviet Union offered India full transfer of technology and rights for local assembly. In 1964, the MiG-21 became the first supersonic fighter jet to enter service with the IAF. Due to limited induction numbers and lack of pilot training, the IAF MiG-21 played a limited role in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965. However, the IAF gained valuable experience while operating the MiG-21 for defensive sorties during the war.The positive feedback from IAF pilots during the 1965 war prompted India to place more orders for the fighter jet and also invest heavily in building the MiG-21's maintenance infrastructure and pilot training programs. By 1969, India had acquired more than 120 MiG-21s from the Soviet Union.

Improvements on the baseline MiG-21 to make the Bison :

• Multi-functional coherent Doppler-pulse airborne radar "Kopyo" with slot antenna
• On-board digital computer
• Helmet-mounted target designato
• Double screen (HUD and CRT) display system
• Stores management system
• Inertial navigation system
• Air data computer system, digital
• Short range radio navigation system
• On-board radio command receiving equipmen
• New flare dispenser (26 mm 120 rounds)
• New electric power supply system, controlling and recording system
• Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers
• El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant
• Two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays
• Radar Warning Receivers (RWR)
• New liquid air cooling system
• HOTAS (Hands On Throttle And Stick) controls
• Autopilot

Like the Su-30MKI, it has a mix of French, Israeli, Indian and Russian avionics equipment. It is claimed that the fighters are equivalent to any 4th generation fighter, with the ability to lock on to 8 different targets at once.

It's weaponry includes the not so commonly seen seeker module of the KAB-500Kr TV guided bomb, R-73 CCM and an R-77 BVRAAM carried under wing. The aircraft's sophisticated EW suite comprises of a DRDO Tarang RWR/RHAWS, "Tempest" internal Self-Protection Jammer (SPJ) and the conformal CMDS.

Other features include a SURA HMS, a semi-glass cockpit and a Sextant Totem-3000 Ring laser gyro navigation system with GPS, to mention a few. Note the conformal countermeasure dispensers, the new Tarang RWRs antennae on the tail fin and the single piece windshield.

Pakistan AF F-16 Block 52D

This is a F-16B of the Pakistan Air Force. Look at the serial number. Starts with 90XXX and thus delivery of this aircraft happened in 1990.

From the book 50 years of Mig-21 with the IAF

My Life with the Mig-21 , Air Commodore SS Tyagi has the distinction of flying the max number of sorties and logging the maximum number of flying hours with the Mig-21 in IAF , Tyagi Flew total number of 4003:45 hrs in 6316 sorties

Austin wrote: Improvements on the baseline MiG-21 to make the Bison :

Austin, didn't you guys have Elta built jammers on board the Mig 21 ? How did it fail to jam the incoming AIM 120?

Also, why aren't you guys using SAMs like Pechora, Spyder, Akash etc to engage hostile F 1-6s?

jhelb wrote:Austin, didn't you guys have Elta built jammers on board the Mig 21 ? How did it fail to jam the incoming AIM 120?

jhelb , Yes Mig-21 BISON is integrated with Elta 8200 External Jamming pod but it is not know if in this mission it carried the external jamming pod on pylons or how effective is it against AMRAAM A120 C-5 model

Also, why aren't you guys using SAMs like Pechora, Spyder, Akash etc to engage hostile F 1-6s?

Terriane issue , The valley is hilly and the terrine is not great for SAM that cant work beyond LOS , Likely SAMs are deployed to protect Air Bases and key installation like SA-3 Pechora or Akash SAM that works on LOS principle or short range SAM or Manpads but this area are not plains are hilly high altitude area.

I think it wont be tough for either them or us to penetrate on the other side undetected for some time and react , Like the Indian Mirages penetrated 80 km deep inside Pakistan across LOC and Pakistani AF F-16 came in 3 km inside Indian Airspace.

Photo of Mig-21 BISON with ELTA 8222 external Jamming Pod , It is not know if Winco BISON carried the External Jamming Pod on this Intercept Mission or the effectiveness of EL 8222 Jammers against AMRAAM C-5 class missile



more details on this from a FB Page I came across
https://www.facebook.com/shatrujeet009/posts/an-indian-air-force-mig-21-bison-with-a-elta-ell-8222-self-protection-jamming-po/831796533660550/

Austin wrote:Photo of Mig-21 BISON with ELTA 8222 external Jamming Pod , It is not know if Winco BISON carried the External Jamming Pod on this Intercept Mission or the effectiveness of  EL 8222 Jammers against  AMRAAM C-5 class missile

I would guess it is not very effective considering he was shot down.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Austin wrote:Photo of Mig-21 BISON with ELTA 8222 external Jamming Pod , It is not know if Winco BISON carried the External Jamming Pod on this Intercept Mission or the effectiveness of  EL 8222 Jammers against  AMRAAM C-5 class missile

I would guess it is not very effective considering he was shot down.  

I remember you were the one who said russian jammers suck because indians choosed israeli ones

Good for you. They just discovered how israeli stuff sucks. Upgrades will be all for you, specially if the r-73 shot down the f-16 and if MKI proves something in the coming days. Say thanks to pakistan.

Isos wrote:
I remember you were the one who said russian jammers suck because indians choosed israeli ones

Good for you. They just discovered how israeli stuff sucks. Upgrades will be all for you, specially if the r-73 shot down the f-16 and if MKI proves something in the coming days. Say thanks to pakistan.

The French are the only ones that make good jammers hence a flight of 12 M2000s went undetected deep into Pak territory.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Isos wrote:
I remember you were the one who said russian jammers suck because indians choosed israeli ones

Good for you. They just discovered how israeli stuff sucks. Upgrades will be all for you, specially if the r-73 shot down the f-16 and if MKI proves something in the coming days. Say thanks to pakistan.

The French are the only ones that make good jammers hence a flight of 12 M2000s went undetected deep into Pak territory.

Not really. They were detected and it not was not deep into pak territory but across the border. And they failed the attack btw.

PAF didn't try annything because they were outnumbered.

Vladimir79 wrote:I would guess it is not very effective considering he was shot down.  

x2. Same can be said about the F-16's jammer as well, not very effective. Got shot down. At least Indian MIG 21s don't have MAWS, F-16s have them, yet it was shot out of the sky.

Austin wrote:Photo of Mig-21 BISON with ELTA 8222 external Jamming Pod , It is not know if Winco BISON carried the External Jamming Pod on this Intercept Mission or the effectiveness of EL 8222 Jammers against AMRAAM C-5 class missile

Austin, none of your fighter jets (Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Mig 21 Bison etc) have MAWS, isn't it?

Isos wrote:Not really. They were detected and it not was not deep into pak territory but across the border. And they failed the attack btw.

Oh they failed, is it Indian & Pakistani media both agree that Indian Mirage 2000 went 80kms inside Pakistan.

That being said, the bodies of the jihadis were probably quickly removed by Pakistan. So actual figures will never be available.

That being said, the bodies of the jihadis were probably quickly removed by Pakistan. So actual figures will never be available.

You have satelittes images that proves they targeted woods in the forest. Hiding 350 bodies is not easy. Indian themselves said the terrorists were removed from there well before the attack. Buildings were empty, there was no one in the forest and they missed all building and training camps. So faild attack.

80km at low altitude and at 600-700km/h is like 5 minutes. So it was not deep inside pakistan.

Austin, none of your fighter jets (Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Mig 21 Bison etc) have MAWS, isn't it?

The ecm pods are supposed to detect at least radar guided missiles. And protect against them. But they didn't so the ecm pod suck.

Isos wrote:

Not really. They were detected and it not was not deep into pak territory but across the border. And they failed the attack btw.

PAF didn't try annything because they were outnumbered.

They didn't fail and it was just outside of the capital air defence ring. PAF had no idea what was going on as fighters were dumping flares on take-off as they had no idea where it was coming from.

They didn't fail and it was just outside of the capital air defence ring

Across the border, outside of the airdefence ring where btw there was no real air def system, no massive PAF formation, 12 mirages at low altitude, 2 weeks of preparation, guided munitions and ... They hit nothing . It's a fail.

PAF also entered the indian airspace and launched bombs in open field while IAF was airborn with awacs to attract them and they only shoot (yet to be confirmed) one f-16 and lost one mig-21 which was trapped like rabbit, captured the pilot and released him for nothing to prove they want peace while indians are still shelling pakistan.

That reminds me of israeli tactics against arabs. They send two fighters that when detected get away. Arabs follow them and are trapped by another bigger formation of israeli fighters. Even soviet were trapped like this by them.

Pakistan won the battle.

Austin wrote:Photo of Mig-21 BISON with ELTA 8222 external Jamming Pod , It is not know if Winco BISON carried the External Jamming Pod on this Intercept Mission or the effectiveness of  EL 8222 Jammers against  AMRAAM C-5 class missile



more details on this from a FB Page I came across  
https://www.facebook.com/shatrujeet009/posts/an-indian-air-force-mig-21-bison-with-a-elta-ell-8222-self-protection-jamming-po/831796533660550/

It is true, that AMRAAM AIM-120C-5 miss the target and fall inside India and we do not know the reason. Could be jamming, could be other. But MiG-21Bison was shot down by JF-17 with Chinese SD-10 (PL-12) missile, which use the same Agat ARH head as R-77, so your ECM pod failed against your main adversary China.

Vladimir79 wrote:The French are the only ones that make good jammers hence a flight of 12 M2000s went undetected deep into Pak territory

They were detected and PAF jets went airborn, that is why IAF quickly escape from Pakistan and also they have Su-30MKI protection. On the other side this attack was totaL fiasco and embarasment for India. They made this strike with modernized Mirage-2000H jets equiped with Israeli litening pods and Spice-2000 precise guided bombs. IAF managed to miss their targets with super duper precise guded bombs in kilometes. Not in meters, in KILOMETERS. Su-24M in Syria hit the target with dumb bomb inside 5 to 8 m CEP, but Mirage-2000 miss its target with guided bomb for more than 1000 m. This is realy good PR for Desault. French must be pissed. And those crazy Indians want to replace French components with Israeli ones in Rafale as well. I totaly understand, why Desault doesn't want to give India any guaranty for Rafales. There is also an option, that PAF went in interceprion and IAF simply drop the bombs and run away as cowards and fail to do this strike.

I wonder how much is Su-30MKI degraded because of mix of foreign components from all the winds instead of original Russian ones. I have bad feeling, that it is worse than Chinese Su-30MKK, not to say J-16 although Su-30MKI have TVC and Bars-M radar. Su-30SM was excellent in Syria, I think IAF Su-30MKI will not be that good.

I wonder, why India doesn't show any video evidence from Mirages and Litening pods from attack? Anyone give some video evidence of hitting targets. Even RuAF give many vids from UAV or from combat planes like Su-34, how they hit targets in Syria even with dumb bombs. What is India hiding? How they hit trees miles away from targets?

PAF aircraft did not take off until after the bombs had fallen and dropped flares during take-off.  They had no idea what was going on.

Vladimir79 wrote:PAF aircraft did not take off until after the bombs had fallen and dropped flares during take-off.  They had no idea what was going on.

And ? Even if it was the case it is nothing extraordinary. 80km from the border is nothing for a fighter. Pakistan has no real air defence systems and the terrain is mountainous just like in lebanon when israel attack syria.

It's even more embarassing as you can see on sat images that they missed. They bombed trees ! It's not like they could see 350 guys that were all waiting for IAF bombs under the trees and decide to bomb them. Like wtf was that op ?

But yet you need to prove what you are saying. No one is reporting that PAF wasn't airborn or released chaffs during take off.

Vladimir79 wrote:PAF aircraft did not take off until after the bombs had fallen and dropped flares during take-off.  They had no idea what was going on.

And IAF still miss their targets for miles. This is real embarasment. Dassault should fired all engineers who made such a bad plane as Mirage-2000.

medo wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:PAF aircraft did not take off until after the bombs had fallen and dropped flares during take-off.  They had no idea what was going on.

And IAF still miss their targets for miles. This is real embarasment. Dassault should fired all engineers who made such a bad plane as Mirage-2000.

It's not the mirages the problem but the israeli targeting and ecm pods and guided weapons.

India lost the battle because of israel.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Austin wrote:Photo of Mig-21 BISON with ELTA 8222 external Jamming Pod , It is not know if Winco BISON carried the External Jamming Pod on this Intercept Mission or the effectiveness of  EL 8222 Jammers against  AMRAAM C-5 class missile

I would guess it is not very effective considering he was shot down.  

2 AMRAAM C-5 was fired by the Wing Man of F-16 one hit the Bison , The wing man of the Bison which was shot evaded the 2nd AMRAAM , It fell into India and we showed the parts of AMRAAM




It is not know in this Intercept mission the Mig-21 Bison carried any EL 8222 Jammers , Seldom we have seen it carries any jammers , its mostly 2 R-77 and R-73

Most of the Jammers we use across our fighter aircraft are of Israel type.

French Jammers are used only on Mirages , These were the latest upgraded Mirages we used to strike across Pakistan MIrage -2000 UPG , Quite advanced with MICA etc integarted with Israel and French weapon.

Yes we dont seem to have any MAWS even on upgraded 29UPG and Mirage 2000 UPG , Neither the MKI or Bison have it , We need it more than any thing , Any air battle over Kashmir on Pakistan side will involved MANPADS and WVR IR missile

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3552224.html



On satelitte photo missing air distance is shorter than 1 km, it seems Pakis are measuring distance by walking through the hills. Anyway, to miss the target for 200 m with super duper precise guided bomb Spice-2000, which is guided by super litening targeting pod on modernized Mirage-2000H/I is embarasment for IAF.

medo wrote:https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3552224.html



On satelitte photo missing air distance is shorter than 1 km, it seems Pakis are measuring distance by walking through the hills. Anyway, to miss the target for 200 m with super duper precise guided bomb Spice-2000, which is guided by super litening targeting pod on modernized Mirage-2000H/I is embarasment for IAF.

Its already debunked by an ex IAF Pilot here

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1101692716415516672

IAF certianly used more than 3 spice

medo wrote:https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3552224.html



On satelitte photo missing air distance is shorter than 1 km, it seems Pakis are measuring distance by walking through the hills. Anyway, to miss the target for 200 m with super duper precise guided bomb Spice-2000, which is guided by super litening targeting pod on modernized Mirage-2000H/I is embarasment for IAF.

Its already debunked by an ex IAF Pilot here

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1101692716415516672

IAF certianly used more than 3 spice

Intelligence agencies have evidence, in the form of imagery from Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR), showing that the four buildings, identified as targets, were hit by five S-2000 precision-guided munition (PGM) fired from IAF’s Mirage-2000 fighter jets.

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1101670035485913088

Check the whole thread