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    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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    Post  medo on Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:47 pm

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/india-pakistan-kashmir-satellite-schools-1.5044432

    Satellite images from March 4th prove, that India didn't hit their targets with Spice-2000 1 ton heavy bombs and that object are all intact and no damage around.

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    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:15 am

    medo wrote:https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/india-pakistan-kashmir-satellite-schools-1.5044432

    Satellite images from March 4th prove, that India didn't hit their targets with Spice-2000 1 ton heavy bombs and that object are all intact and no damage around.

    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir - Page 3 Balako10

    They used penetrator as these key facilities had underground bunkers so even though external structure may look a bit intact most damage is internal

    And one would need like cm level sat image to even make out the damage
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    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:23 am

    The Mystery of the Missing F-16

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    Post  medo on Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:40 am

    No, India have Spice-2000 add on kit, which they install on Mk-84 bombs. Also, the target is not a millitary instalation with underground bunkers, but school (Madrasa). Face it. You miss the target and hit neighbouring hill and cut trees.



    You could see effect of hiting the ground with 500 kg BETAB bomb. Effect of undrground explosion will blow of the roof, which is the lightest construction on the building. And India claim it hit with three 1000 kg bombs and roof is intact? When you use penetrator, energy from explosion is even more directed against roof from the hole, than with ordinary bomb.

    If India actually hit this Madrasa with 3 tons of explosive and hit underground storage of terrorist, that there would be also secondary explosions and there would be one huge crater instead of building and we would not look on intact roof.
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    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:59 am

    medo wrote:No, India have Spice-2000 add on kit, which they install on Mk-84 bombs. Also, the target is not a millitary instalation with underground bunkers, but school (Madrasa). Face it. You miss the target and hit neighbouring hill and cut trees.



    You could see effect of hiting the ground with 500 kg BETAB bomb. Effect of undrground explosion will blow of the roof, which is the lightest construction on the building. And India claim it hit with three 1000 kg bombs and roof is intact? When you use penetrator, energy from explosion is even more directed against roof from the hole, than with ordinary bomb.

    If India actually hit this Madrasa with 3 tons of explosive and hit underground storage of terrorist, that there would be also secondary explosions and there would be one huge crater instead of building and we would not look on intact roof.

    Madrasa or School yah like they only Teach Terrorist there Razz

    The kind of weapons Mirage squadron uses might be normal kit or some specialised one got from Israel ...... with penetrator warhead .....There are lot of weapons that Mirage Squadron uses which are not known in public becuase they are also part of India Air nuclear detterent.

    It is not uncommon to find bunkers even in Kashmir , to either hide or store weapons ......Need not be military grade bunker but even a deep entrance to some man hole 100 m away.

    It is not easy to find out the actual loss unless some one makes a ground visit to these places
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    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:53 pm

    Written by a Friend of mine , most comprehensive write up of Mig-21 in IAF service till date

    MiG 21: Over 50 glorious years of service in Indian Air Force
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:23 pm

    Austin wrote:Written by a Friend of mine , most comprehensive write up of Mig-21 in IAF service till date

    MiG 21: Over 50 glorious years of service in Indian Air Force

    It seems even 10 days later, Pakistani military is not allowing the international media to visit the islamic religious center that Indian air Force had targeted.

    https://in.reuters.com/article/india-kashmir-pakistan-madrasa/no-access-to-pakistan-religious-school-that-india-says-it-bombed-idINKCN1QO26W


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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:28 am

    A penetration bomb is usually a very heavy item, but don't be fooled by the weight description... more than half the weight of a concrete piercing or penetration bomb is often metal providing structural strength to the bomb to hold together as it penetrates metres of rock or concrete or soil with the HE charge only being a fraction of the weight of the bomb... but in this case the purpose of the HE charge is not to blow everything up into the air like a hollywood fire ball... the purpose is to send shockwaves through the soil and rock to collapse tunnels or cavities like underground rooms or bunkers...

    The problem of determining how successful the strike is enormous, because generally you only have a fairly vague idea of where the tunnels and rooms actually are, so bomb placement is tricky at the best of times and may only be an almost invisible hole at the surface, while in the bunker system itself all the tunnels and rooms might have collapsed and filled with soil while the surface looks normal and has not collapsed because there are still large cavities underneath it... except they are above the rooms and tunnels the material was there collapsed in to.

    Of course if the information is wrong and there are no underground tunnels or rooms then the local area just got an artificial earthquake for nothing...
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:15 am

    That is not an R-25-300 fuselage.
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    Post  medo on Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:02 am

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    Craters from bombs are surface, so India didn't use any penetration bombs, but usual HE Mk-84 bombs with Spice-2000 add on kit. Objects are intact, because IAF didn't hit them. They hit neighbouring hill, where the bomb craters are.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:32 pm

    medo wrote:
    Craters from bombs are surface, so India didn't use any penetration bombs, but usual HE Mk-84 bombs with Spice-2000 add on kit. Objects are intact, because IAF didn't hit them. They hit neighbouring hill, where the bomb craters are.

    India didn't need to use perpetrators, they were outdoor structures. As per your photos, there are no structures remaining.
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    Post  medo on Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:02 pm

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    Of course there wasn't any structure remaining, where Indian bombs hit, because it is a forest and no buildings there at all. Buildings, which India was bombing are on another hill, not on that one, which India hit. IAF with precise guided bombs didn't just miss buildings, they miss the whole hill.
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    Post  medo on Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:19 am

    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir - Page 3 14347312

    Nightmare for IAF. Pakistani JF-17 are now armed with long range PL-15 AA missile.

    Pakistan also went Indian way and claim, they shot down Su-30MKI. It's true, their F-16 launched some AMRAAMs against Su-30 jets, but non was shot down. If any Su-30MKI was shot down, US would be more than happy to show satellite picture from crash zone to confirm F-16 kill. That would be excellent PR for Lockheed Martin. Similarly, Indian MiG-21 got missile lock on PAF F-16 according to radio report, before it was cut. But missile lock doesn't mean, that missile was launched and it doesn't mean that target was hit. So it is still only 1 MiG-21 shot down by JF-17. This is interesting, no AIM-120 AMRAAM kill.


    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3565868.html

    Так, 26 февраля индийские ВВС нанесли удар по трем лагерям различных исламских группировок на контролируемой Пакистаном территории Кашмира и на территории самого Пакистана. Атаки произвели 12 многоцелевых истребителей Mirage 2000H, которые сбросили управляемые бомбы израильского производства Spice. Кроме того, были применены израильские авиационные ракеты класса «воздух-поверхность» Popeye. Ударная группа обеспечивалась двумя самолетами ДРЛО, в том числе одним самолетом российско-израильского производства А-50Э, и двумя воздушными заправщиками Ил-78 МКИ. Прикрытие осуществляли 4-8 наиболее мощных тактических самолетов ВВС Индии Су-30 МКИ.

    Этот удар оказался неэффективным (информация на этот счет разнится. - «Профиль»). Пока неясно, что послужило тому причиной - отказ хваленого израильского оружия, качество которого вообще сильно переоценено, плохая подготовка пилотов индийских Mirage 2000 или дурная организация рейда (то есть низкое качество командного состава ВВС Индии). Как бы то ни было, но высокоточные израильские тактические бомбы Spice и ракеты продемонстрировали круговое вероятное отклонение, которого скорее можно было бы ожидать от межконтинентальной баллистической ракеты не самой современной модели.

    This is even more epic. BMPD is asking, what went wrong with IAF strike. Was it failure of Israeli bombs, bad training of IAF Mirage-2000 pilots or bad planing of strike. He miss something important here. Deeply modernized IAF Mirage-2000, which made this strike are the best IAF strike platform and they are also Indian aviation nuclear arsenal carriers. Because IAF Mirage-2000 is responsibkle for nuclear strikes, they are piloted by the best of the best Indian pilots. Not average, which fly with Jaguars and Su-30MKI. Lower quality pilots fly with MiGs. The best pilots and the best strike planers are with Mirage-2000 because of nuclear bombs they use.

    How could now IAF trust nuclear strikes to Mirage-2000 teams, if they could not hit the right hill with precision guided Spice-2000 bombs and actually hit wrong empty hill. IAF will have to do a very deep inspection here to see if their the best pilots and teams are not that good as they think they are or Israeli equipment and French planes are not compatible and Mirage-2000 is deeply degraded by Israeli junk. Even Arabs hit precisely with their Mirages, but they use French Democles pods and french guided bombs.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:48 pm

    Pakistan presented missiles from a downed Indian MiG-21bis UPG fighter


    Pakistani armed forces have distributed photographic materials indicating that in a shot down by Pakistani aviation during the incident of February 27, 2019 over the Kashmir MiG-21bis UPG (Bison) fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force (Indian military number CU2328) were all four air-to-air missiles (two medium-range RVV-AE and two Russian-made short-range R-73Es), and none of these missiles show signs of launch.

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    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir - Page 3 6680598_1000

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3579526.html
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    Post  medo on Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:46 pm

    As It was said before. Indian pilot report missile lock on target and than radio communication is lost. He was shot down before he launched any missile. No F-16 was shot down, because no missile was launched against it. Still not clear, why he didn't use R-77 from longer distance instead of short range R-73.

    Considering, that the best Indian elite pilots miss the whole hill with guided bombs, this only show, that there is a big diference between Bollywood and reality. This was a dangerous mix of incompetency and replacing of original components in planes with a mix of different foreign components. What could go wrong? Rolling Eyes
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:56 pm

    George1 wrote:

    Pakistan presented missiles from a downed Indian MiG-21bis UPG fighter




     Pakistani armed forces have distributed photographic materials indicating that in a shot down by Pakistani aviation during the incident of February 27, 2019 over the Kashmir MiG-21bis UPG (Bison) fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force (Indian military number CU2328) were all four air-to-air missiles (two medium-range RVV-AE and two Russian-made short-range R-73Es), and none of these missiles show signs of launch.

    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir - Page 3 6679360_original

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3579526.html

    That is actually three missiles, you can see how they rearranged the last one to make it look like two.
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    Post  medo on Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:49 am

    No, there are 4 missiles. Two intact missiles and two burnt missiles, but still very claerly four missile engines and four guiding heads, two IR and two ARH. Abhinandan didn't launch any missile, so no F-16 shot down. But still, there is a question, why he want to get in Pakistan air space and launch R-73 short range AAM, when he could safely launch R-77 from Indian air space without the risk to get shot down. PAF use well its JF-17 to launch PL-12 against the MiG-21, before he could shot down PAF fighter.

    This IAF fiasco is a result of Abhinandan stupidity to went in Pakistani air space alone without his wingman trying to launch short range AAM against his target, knowing well, that air space is well protected by modern fighters.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:58 pm

    medo wrote:No, there are 4 missiles. Two intact missiles and two burnt missiles, but still very claerly four missile engines and four guiding heads, two IR and two ARH. Abhinandan didn't launch any missile, so no F-16 shot down. But still, there is a question, why he want to get in Pakistan air space and launch R-73 short range AAM, when he could safely launch R-77 from Indian air space without the risk to get shot down. PAF use well its JF-17 to launch PL-12 against the MiG-21, before he could shot down PAF fighter.

    This IAF fiasco is a result of Abhinandan stupidity to went in Pakistani air space alone without his wingman trying to launch short range AAM against his target, knowing well, that air space is well protected by modern fighters.

    No, it is only 3 missiles. Clearly the last two are the same missile.
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    Post  medo on Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:43 pm

    There are four missile engines and two IR seakers and two ARH heads. There are two R-73 missiles, which prove, that Abhinandan didn't launch any missile as IAF said he have missile lock for R-73 AAM.

    https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/iaf-confirms-wing-commander-abhinandan-varthaman-shot-down-pakistan-f-16-fighter-jet-1471540-2019-03-06

    IAF fighter pilot Abhinandan Varthaman had fired an R-73 missile to take out the Pakistan aircraft before his Mig 21 Bison was hit by an AMRAAM missile. The development now seals the fact that Pakistan had used an F-16 in an offensive role.

    Top sources also revealed to India Today TV that Abhinandan was the only IAF pilot who fired a missile during the dogfight. In his last radio transmission before Pakistani Air Force struck his aircraft, Abhinandan confirmed that he had locked on to a Pakistani aircraft.

    Sorry, but Indian fairytales are just fairytales, like those that they kill hundreds of terrorists in air strike, when they didn't hit even the right hill. Of course we would all like to see the first victory of MiG-21 over F-16, but unfortunately it didn't happened. All four missiles were still on underwing pylons. Like it or not, JF-17 is the winner in this air battle.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:20 pm

    medo wrote:There are four missile engines and two IR seakers and two ARH heads. There are two R-73 missiles, which prove, that Abhinandan didn't launch any missile as IAF said he have missile lock for R-73 AAM.

    It is the same engine torn in two pieces. It is very obvious they are trying to make the same missile look like two which proves Abhindandan launched a missile.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:41 pm

    The last engine seems to be the one that was launched. You can see that it's much more destroyed than others which means the explosion was closer. They found that near the pakistani downed fighter.

    The front is however clean which is unlikely to be the case if the explosion destroyed the engine that is 10000x stronger.

    There is no middle part.

    So an engine made of steel destroyed, no middle part but a clean guidance part. For a 2m long missiles ...

    That's from two diferrent missiles for sure.

    In my opinion it could have been a mirage 3 that was destroyed by the IAF and not an f-16. Because Pakistani keep saying " you can come those the f-16, they are all at the airbases". They seem confident about the f-16s but not so much about the other.

    Their raid involved f-16 already proved by the amraam but also mirage 3. I doubt any jf-17 was involved.
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    Post  medo on Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:54 pm

    Look at all pictures from bmpd. The burnt out R-73 missile engine is still locked on missile launcher. MiG-21 fall on the ground on one side and under one wing missiles are intact, while under another wing they were destroyed in fire. Missile fuel and warhead burn out, so only homing heads and engines remain. You could well see two radar ARH homing heads and two IR homing heads with control wings from R-73. None of the missiles was launched.
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    Post  medo on Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:07 am



    There are still unanswered questions around Abhinandan's action. Why he went alone in Pakistan air space and trying to shot down a plane in WVR attack with short range R-73 missile, knowing, that PAF AWACS and fighter jets are there. Maybe he thought, that they didn't detect him, turn off the radar and go in visual attack. It looks like he was not aware, that he was tracked, locked and engaged until he was shot down. MiG-21 Bison didn't launch any chaff or flare before been hit.

    It looks like Indian made Tarang RWR didn't give any warning to pilot and this could be reason, why Abhinandad did what he did. Considering, that India is not under sanctions, have more than enough money and RWR is domestic, there is no reason for RWR not to be fully operational. India install their Tarang RWR on MiG-21 Bison, MiG-29, MiG-29UPG, MiG-29K, Su-30MKI and Tejas. It's true, that PAF attack Indian Su-30MKI with AMRAAMs and they evade them, but they were far away from border and attack was made head on, so they could detect AMRAAMs with radar and IRST sensors. India have a bad habit to install a mix of foreign and domestic components in their planes instead of original ones and with that degrade their planes. If Indian Tarang RWR actually doesn't work, than Indian fighters are in big danger at BVR attacks. They will not be avare, that something is comming from the side or from the back.
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    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:11 pm

    How The Balakot Strike Was Planned And Successfully Executed

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    Post  southpark on Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:30 pm

    "Responding to medo's comments".....

    Dude, the reaction time is so small in that area with respect to location of bases that whoever goes on offense will have the initial advantage and F-16 or j-17 will have advantage over Mig-21 in most every aspect. I would give this operation 70% success rate considering they shot down an F-16 block D and destroyed some camps (probably not all)...it is a difficult terrain to strike but India could have done it better in info war and also in some operation parameters of the mission. I read somewhere that Sukhoi's could not be placed in forward bases because of not having hardened bunkers (delayed by political and military brass corruption). The fact that Pakistan is shit scared to date (their airspace is still not fully open) shows you the pressure they are dealing with. Unless India has offensive strategy I would not place Sukhoi's in forward bases and pick something like Tejas (joke for now) so they are not taken out in surprize first strike attack. Striking first is generally done by immature countries like Pakistan, Georgia, Ukraine, Baltics e.t.c....it is called sucker punching and will not work against stronger opponents. Awacs are very vulnerable when you do not have the full operational spectrum of equipment....USA and Russia make it look easy but I am sure India pales in comparison to those countries in reach, number and experience...No magic there....they did set a precedent that all options are on the table from here on when dealing with Pakistan. Heck Indian navy will have a field day taking out Pakistan and Chinese infrastructure if it comes to that (it may lose some ships).....we (USA) will gladly do our part too considering rivalry with China and I am sure Iran will do its part too. Russia will remain neutral at best....that is my take on the shit show that occurred.

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