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    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...

    Even a Smerch battery should have flattened the area in question for rather less than these Israeli weapons probably cost them... and with no risk to aircraft.

    Their (Indian MOD) corrupt practices keeps them from spending smart.
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    Post  jhelb on Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...

    They already have their version of Iskander called Prithvi which is a tactical surface-to-surface short-range ballistic missile. They could have also used Brahmos cruise missile.

    But my basic point is, this is just a fake news that the Indian government decided to spread. They went inside Pakistani airspace but did NOT target anything.

    They next day (27thFeb) Indian Government said Pakistani Air Force send in F-16, JF-17 and Mirage 3 that targeted Indian military installation inside Indian territory. Where are the pieces of those munitions that were dropped by F-16, JF-17 ? If India can show pieces of AMRAAM then surely they should have pieces of munition dropped by Pakistani jets.


    medo
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    Post  medo on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:05 pm

    This Indian attack was not on a sudden target, which pop up on the hill. It was well planed in advance and is targeting static well known school object, which is not that small. Spice-2000 in automatic CCD/IIR guidance compare the picture of object in camera with the picture of object saved in memory and works together with GPS guidance, the same as with cruise missiles. WSO in the plane could still monitor bomb fly path through data link and could see if a cross of the bomb is not on the target but above it and could correct the cross back to target and hit it. Attack was planed in advance on well known object, so they study well the object itself and the area around it and on flypath and it was for sure done by computers and digital maps. I don't think Indians write coordinates in bombs by watching on paper map and reading isohipses. Target objects were alone on the top of the hill and around is forest. Most probably IAF made a mistake in altitude of target and bomb fly over it and fall in next hill instead in object and they most probably didn't use IIR camera to correct the mistake. How this could happen, when they use computers and digital maps is another story, but mistakes happened. If Indians are smart, they will take some lessons from this and this will not repeat again. Every mistake is good, if you see it and correct it, problem is, if you deny it and don't correct it.

    Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...

    Even a Smerch battery should have flattened the area in question for rather less than these Israeli weapons probably cost them... and with no risk to aircraft.

    India is obsesed with Israeli tech and they place Israeli equipment everywhere possible. They want to show superiority of Israeli weapons against "old Russian junk", so no way to use Russian Tochky-U missile or Kh-59M from Su-30MKI. They could use Brahmos as well. Russia hit the target in Syria with Onyx missile. But India decided to use Mirage-2000 with Spice-2000 bombs. This is politics of Modi in front of elections.
    medo
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    Post  medo on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:13 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...

    They already have their version of Iskander called Prithvi which is a tactical surface-to-surface short-range ballistic missile. They could have also used Brahmos cruise missile.

    But my basic point is, this is just a fake news that the Indian government decided to spread. They went inside Pakistani airspace but did NOT target anything.

    They next day (27thFeb) Indian Government said Pakistani Air Force send in F-16, JF-17 and Mirage 3 that targeted Indian military installation inside Indian territory. Where are the pieces of those munitions that were dropped by F-16, JF-17 ?  If India can show pieces of AMRAAM then surely they should have pieces of munition dropped by Pakistani jets.



    Pakistan show pieces of bombs and craters they made in the forest. If India didn't target it, than they could simply say, this was a warning strike near target and everything would be OK.
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    Post  jhelb on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:46 pm

    medo wrote:Pakistan show pieces of bombs and craters they made in the forest. If India didn't target it, than they could simply say, this was a warning strike near target and everything would be OK.

    Pakistan showed a few drop tanks. No evidence of Spice 2000.

    That area is a known training ground for jihadis. Craters could well have been formed by some IED explosions that jihadis carried out during training.

    And if indeed 12 Indian Mirage-2000 entered Pakistani airspace & they couldn't shoot down even one, it shows Pakistani Air Force, Army in very poor light.

    Pakistanis are bigger liars than Indians. One of their F-16 pilot is dead, apparently lynched by Pakistani villagers, but what about the second F-16 pilot who had also ejected? Why doesn't Pakistan show him to the international media. It has been more than 45 days now.

    Even now the Pakistani airspace is almost entirely closed.


    Last edited by jhelb on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:23 pm

    Both sides are major liars.

    India screwed up and did a shit job in their strike. Those Israeli bombs suck and all those Israeli gadgets are garbage.

    Pakistan did lose an F-16 or a jet of some sort. One of their men are dead and they are covering it up.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:48 am

    The fog of war...
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:59 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Both sides are major liars.

    India screwed up and did a shit job in their strike.  Those Israeli bombs suck and all those Israeli gadgets are garbage.

    Pakistan did lose an F-16 or a jet of some sort.  One of their men are dead and they are covering it up.

    The more you think about it, the more you realize that the idea of integrating Israeli tech on Indian vehicles have been out right abysmal failures time and time again! Remember the Arjun MBT? Yeah literal vaporware, and has heavy integration of Israeli tech. Also the LAHAT GLATGM is nothing short of fecal mixed crud. Compare Refleks, which is a laser beam-riding missile that's nearly impossible to beat with PPS/DIRCM's and was the base design for the most capable man portable ATGM in the world (Kornet), while Lahat has a front facing seeker than can be easily defeated/dazzled with Passive Counter Measures....but most of all doesn't work as advertised:

    India drops Israeli missile for Arjun Tank
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:21 am

    Austin, not to score any brownie points, but it seems the naysayers were correct all along.

    No Pakistani was killed during the IAF strike. Clarified by India's External Affairs Minister

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/no-pakistani-soldier-or-citizen-died-in-balakot-air-strike-sushma-swaraj/articleshow/68941123.cms

    Eventually, you guys will finally see the light - no airstrike took place
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:38 am

    Compare Refleks, which is a laser beam-riding missile that's nearly impossible to beat with PPS/DIRCM's and was the base design for the most capable man portable ATGM in the world (Kornet), while Lahat has a front facing seeker than can be easily defeated/dazzled with Passive Counter Measures....but most of all doesn't work as advertised:

    What an odd article that was.... it mentioned a fault of the missile was not being able to hit targets within 1.2km... but it is a tank round... surely within 1.2km you should be able to obliterate the target with an APFSDS round or a HEAT round at a vastly cheaper price.

    Semi Active Laser Homing is not bad per say, it does have some advantages, like not needing a clear line of sight between the target and the operator... you can bang them off and mark the target with another smaller lighter platform... like a small UAV operating over enemy forces at heights where they are tough to see.

    There are not many opponents who could actually do much about that sort of method of attack... of course smoke around the target means the missile might be targeting the top of a smoke cloud instead of the target so might fly right past the target because it wont notice hitting the smoke and wont see the tank underneath...

    Still I would think if they have gun launched missiles in their T-72s and T-90s it makes sense to just use one type of missile for the job... perhaps a joint venture to expand its performance to their specialist needs.... perhaps 10km range in open country or mountains where targets can be seen at much greater distances... the Kornet seems to work to 10km in the HE Frag armed model, so a 125mm gun accelerated model should be at least able to manage to equal that...

    Of course experience in Syria seems to have shown them that 152mm laser homing rounds can be very very effective with the right drone support too... including against moving targets...

    You would think with less than 40% of the new Arjun being Indian they would just do what the Russians did and just buy the engine and gun and armour technology from Russia and work on developing their own armour industry... considering their size and the large number of potential opponents they see in their path (ie china) then having a lot of tanks would be valuable for them.

    What they are doing now is having their high tech tank being supposed to be indigenous (Arjun) and their mass numbers tank imported (T-72/90)... except their new imports of the T-90MS seems to be superior in many ways to their supposed high tech tank.

    I would have thought logically that it would make rather more sense for them to unify the cheap and the expensive model... buy the T-90MS design completely and fully licence produce it in numbers as their Domestic high quality tank and upgrade the T-72s with features and equipment from the T-90 and use that as the numbers tank and just drop the Arjun.

    In terms of aircraft, I think they need to have a sit down and good hard think about what they are doing... I think the Tegas has enormous potential as a cheap simple light fighter, but they seem to be screwing that up... it looks from the outside like they are expecting too much from it... it does not and should not have enormous range or an enormous payload... it needs to be reasonably manoeuvrable with a good payload and medium range and cheaper to buy and operate and easy to fly and reliable and safe.

    Trying to make it a super weapon will ruin it... the MiG-21 is a good example... small but fast and cheap to run... not a lot of range and not a lot of payload, and no super dogfighter... but cheap and simple and most of the time effective enough... with R-73s and R-77s it is a serious threat to even modern enemy aircraft.

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