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    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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    Post  medo on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:23 pm

    India didn't shot down any F-16, because shot down MiG-21Bison have all four missiles still on pylons, when it fall on the ground. Indian air force shot down only their own Mi-17 with Spyder SAM. It more becoming clear, that Indian made tarang RWR didn't work and didn't warn Abhinandan for incoming missile and he didn't launch any chaffs or flairs. Officers from command center try to warn him from danger, but he didn't hear as PAF jamm his communications. Considering, that IAF have AWACS in the air and planes were connected with data links, MiG-21 Bison could well launch R-77 missiles from safe distance instead of flying without wingman inside Pakistan air space and trying to launch short range R-73 AAM.

    https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-officer-told-wg-cdr-abhinandan-to-turn-back-but-he-couldnt-hear-her/213337/

    New Delhi: “Turn cold, turn cold”, a young woman IAF controller sitting in a secure control room in Punjab shouted repeatedly, exactly a month ago. But Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman could not hear anything inside his MiG-21 Bison.

    Not realising that he had crossed the Line of Control, Abhinandan locked on to an F-16 of the Pakistan Air Force and fired his R-73 air-to-air missile seconds before his plane was shot at. In a matter of seconds, both aircraft went tumbling down into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

    What the woman officer was telling the Wing Commander was to abandon and return as he had crossed over, top sources in the Indian Air Force told ThePrint.

    An analysis of the dogfight of 27 February by the IAF has revealed that Abhinandan could not hear the command being given by the officer. The IAF believes this could be because of radio jamming by Pakistan.

    Sources said that around 9:30 am, IAF flight controllers noticed that a large package of PAF aircraft had taken off in a matter of minutes. These aircraft, numbering about 24, included at least 11 F-16s, and got airborne in a span of 15 minutes.

    Sources said more than half of them headed to the LoC, while a few remained along the international border.

    While India’s Sukhoi Su-30s were on a Combat Air Patrol (CAP) in the Rajasthan sector, two Mirage 2000s were on CAP at the LoC.

    The officer in question was sitting in the control room at the time, giving instructions and coordinating the response to the challenge thrown by the Pakistan Air Force. She realised that things could get difficult and immediately ordered the scampering of more Su-30s and MiG-21s, which took off from the Srinagar and Awantipur air bases.

    She alerted the Indian pilots to the use of F-16s, which have better beyond visual range or BVR missiles than the Sukhois and the MiGs.

    It was her alertness and instructions that allowed the Indian pilots to take preventive measures and escape the AMRAAM missiles fired by the F-16s.

    According to IAF, Indian and Israeli made electronics like data link and RWR didn't work as they have to warn pilots with voice comm from CP. IAF said, that Mirage-2000, have lock on F-16 with Mica AAMs, why they didn't launch missiles on them? Why Su-30MKI didn't use their R-77 or Astra AAMs if F-16 could launch AMRAAMs on them? Mirage-2000 jets were closer to PAF formation, why PAF didn't launch missiles on Mirages? Most probably PAF launch those AMRAAMs just to keep Sukhois and Mirages on safe distance and only MiG-21 were close enough to engage and they use wrong tactics, when they have AWACS and R-77 medium range AAMs ready to use and were networked with data links.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:11 pm

    medo wrote:India didn't shot down any F-16, because shot down MiG-21Bison have all four missiles still on pylons, when it fall on the ground. Indian air force shot down only their own Mi-17 with Spyder SAM. It more becoming clear, that Indian made tarang RWR didn't work and didn't warn Abhinandan for incoming missile and he didn't launch any chaffs or flairs. Officers from command center try to warn him from danger, but he didn't hear as PAF jamm his communications. Considering, that IAF have AWACS in the air and planes were connected with data links, MiG-21 Bison could well launch R-77 missiles from safe distance instead of flying without wingman inside Pakistan air space and trying to launch short range R-73 AAM.

    https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-officer-told-wg-cdr-abhinandan-to-turn-back-but-he-couldnt-hear-her/213337/

    New Delhi: “Turn cold, turn cold”, a young woman IAF controller sitting in a secure control room in Punjab shouted repeatedly, exactly a month ago. But Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman could not hear anything inside his MiG-21 Bison.

    Not realising that he had crossed the Line of Control, Abhinandan locked on to an F-16 of the Pakistan Air Force and fired his R-73 air-to-air missile seconds before his plane was shot at. In a matter of seconds, both aircraft went tumbling down into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

    What the woman officer was telling the Wing Commander was to abandon and return as he had crossed over, top sources in the Indian Air Force told ThePrint.

    An analysis of the dogfight of 27 February by the IAF has revealed that Abhinandan could not hear the command being given by the officer. The IAF believes this could be because of radio jamming by Pakistan.

    Sources said that around 9:30 am, IAF flight controllers noticed that a large package of PAF aircraft had taken off in a matter of minutes. These aircraft, numbering about 24, included at least 11 F-16s, and got airborne in a span of 15 minutes.

    Sources said more than half of them headed to the LoC, while a few remained along the international border.

    While India’s Sukhoi Su-30s were on a Combat Air Patrol (CAP) in the Rajasthan sector, two Mirage 2000s were on CAP at the LoC.

    The officer in question was sitting in the control room at the time, giving instructions and coordinating the response to the challenge thrown by the Pakistan Air Force. She realised that things could get difficult and immediately ordered the scampering of more Su-30s and MiG-21s, which took off from the Srinagar and Awantipur air bases.

    She alerted the Indian pilots to the use of F-16s, which have better beyond visual range or BVR missiles than the Sukhois and the MiGs.

    It was her alertness and instructions that allowed the Indian pilots to take preventive measures and escape the AMRAAM missiles fired by the F-16s.

    According to IAF, Indian and Israeli made electronics like data link and RWR didn't work as they have to warn pilots with voice comm from CP. IAF said, that Mirage-2000, have lock on F-16 with Mica AAMs, why they didn't launch missiles on them? Why Su-30MKI didn't use their R-77 or Astra AAMs if F-16 could launch AMRAAMs on them? Mirage-2000 jets were closer to PAF formation, why PAF didn't launch missiles on Mirages? Most probably PAF launch those AMRAAMs just to keep Sukhois and Mirages on safe distance and only MiG-21 were close enough to engage and they use wrong tactics, when they have AWACS and R-77 medium range AAMs ready to use and were networked with data links.

    Now the Spyder Sam couldn't identify friendly from foe? lol1 Oh the irony....they were circle-jerking over the non-operating Pantsir getting hit, but Spyder Sam struggles with basic IFF??? Embarassed Razz
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    Post  southpark on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:43 pm

    I am not sure why the Indian's do what they do integrating stuff from 3 or 4 different countries. I think it may be the DRDO lobby and brass corruption and calling it "indigenous" (may be the motivation to hide their poor performance)? May be the earlier Russian versions paled to western equipment (after USSR) and spare parts misery and what not through out 90's and 2000's. We can only speculate if they have a valid reasons to go that route.

    F-16 pilot was lynched, I guess he went kamikazi if mig did not shoot him down? Be careful with the evidence that is presented than that is not....chemical attacks in Syria, White helmets and so on....you need to use your own judgement...evidence on tv means shit and it appears in whatever color you prefer to find it. The point is Pakistan is shit scared and they got the message that it will not be status quo. India hopefully learned its lessons too and acquisition of S-400's should also help them in tackling the dilemma of first strike on their bases. Pakistan stands no chance and digging a bigger hole economically, militarily and socially by encouraging terrorism. I guess their only identity and reason for existence is hate towards India and very bleak future waiting for them and countries that follow that path. Also you will not find evidence if things occurred on Pakistan territory. Not all operations go to plan...there could be oversights, under estimations, equipment failures e.t.c....are S-300's shooting down Israeli aircraft? Does that mean Isreali's are invincible? I can quote 100 operations by various countries including super powers that performed miserable against a simple enemy. It is not as simple as you can make it out on the forum...responsible countries and people prefer war to be the last resort. The full blown war will be won by India in week to 10 days if it went that way (conventional)....if it goes nuclear it will be over even soon and India will take a reduction in their over population but Pakistan will not exist and the mother country will take it back.

    This did put Indian brass and leadership in a bad light success or failure and I am guessing that good changes will be forced on them (hopefully). Remember "only cowards go to war to win". Success or failure, both can be noble for right reasons.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:12 am

    I am not sure why the Indian's do what they do integrating stuff from 3 or 4 different countries. I think it may be the DRDO lobby and brass corruption and calling it "indigenous" (may be the motivation to hide their poor performance)? May be the earlier Russian versions paled to western equipment (after USSR) and spare parts misery and what not through out 90's and 2000's. We can only speculate if they have a valid reasons to go that route.

    In any organisation or structure you get different mafia groups... the US Navy example would be Hornet mafia vs Tomcat mafia... it just depends on experience and position... if the guy in charge likes one or the other that will likely get preference.

    There are also groups that prefer western weapons and those that prefer Soviet weapons within the Indian military too... some flew French jets and just prefer them because that is what their experience is... and they will be having a hard time because the French are not being very nice to them... India wanted Mirage 2000s to produce in India and France refused demanding they buy Rafale instead... which is vastly more expensive and they wont let the Indians make it in India or transfer any technology.
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    Post  southpark on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:30 am

    I can understand the preference but why make it complicated like that? Isn't simplicity a basic principle in engineering and if they preferred Mirage's then they should buy them...why mess with Russian fighters and then put French, Israeli and their own thing in it? Probably buggy as hell and for good reasons....may be they will realize the futility of this nonsensical approach and held accountable. F-35 is an example too....too complicated but atleast its mostly American, next gen in some areas and eventually we hope to fig it out...embarassing
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    Post  medo on Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:11 pm

    southpark wrote:I can understand the preference but why make it complicated like that? Isn't simplicity a basic principle in engineering and if they preferred Mirage's then they should buy them...why mess with Russian fighters and then put French, Israeli and their own thing in it? Probably buggy as hell and for good reasons....may be they will realize the futility of this nonsensical approach and held accountable. F-35 is an example too....too complicated but atleast its mostly American, next gen in some areas and eventually we hope to fig it out...embarassing

    Bad Indian habit to place foreign components in their planes is not only for russian planes. They also install Israeli and Indian components in Mirage-2000 and Jaguar and they are not Russian planes. India even want to replace some French components with Israeli ones in Rafale and that wasone of the reasons, why Dassault didn't want to give any guaranty to Indian Rafales and why India didn't order 125 Rafales. I don't know, if those 36 Rafales, which India finaly order, are fully French or have Israeli components inside.

    This Indian habit well degrade their planes. Just look at Mirage-2000. Arabs are not known, to be the best pilots in the World, but they have no problems to hit precisely with guided weapons with their Mirage-2000 jets in Lybia or in Yemen. Their Mirages are fully French and use French democles targeting pods and french guided bombs and missiles. On the other hand Indian Mirage-2000 have Israeli components inside, targeting pods and weapons and we see the result in Balakot strike. Not only that they didn't hit the object of madrasa school, which was their target, they didn't hit even the hill on which the object was. They use Israeli precision guided bombs Spice-2000. It use dual guidance, GPS and EO. School object is not moving and is on well known location with known coordinates, including altitude, so using GPS guidance could not miss it as there was no jamming, counter fire, etc. Even if they give wrong coordinates or bomb lost GPS signal, it still have day/night TV channel, with which they could correct mistake an guide it to the target. And they still fail to hit it. Mirage-2000 pilots are not average or beginners, but the best in IAF as Mirage-2000 is responsible for nuclear strikes. Their mission planners are also the best in IAF, but they still fail.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:16 am

    medo wrote:
    southpark wrote:I can understand the preference but why make it complicated like that? Isn't simplicity a basic principle in engineering and if they preferred Mirage's then they should buy them...why mess with Russian fighters and then put French, Israeli and their own thing in it? Probably buggy as hell and for good reasons....may be they will realize the futility of this nonsensical approach and held accountable. F-35 is an example too....too complicated but atleast its mostly American, next gen in some areas and eventually we hope to fig it out...embarassing

    Bad Indian habit to place foreign components in their planes is not only for russian planes. They also install Israeli and Indian components in Mirage-2000 and Jaguar and they are not Russian planes. India even want to replace some French components with Israeli ones in Rafale and that wasone of the reasons, why Dassault didn't want to give any guaranty to Indian Rafales and why India didn't order 125 Rafales. I don't know, if those 36 Rafales, which India finaly order, are fully French or have Israeli components inside.

    This Indian habit well degrade their planes. Just look at Mirage-2000. Arabs are not known, to be the best pilots in the World, but they have no problems to hit precisely with guided weapons with their Mirage-2000 jets in Lybia or in Yemen. Their Mirages are fully French and use French democles targeting pods and french guided bombs and missiles. On the other hand Indian Mirage-2000 have Israeli components inside, targeting pods and weapons and we see the result in Balakot strike. Not only that they didn't hit the object of madrasa school, which was their target, they didn't hit even the hill on which the object was. They use Israeli precision guided bombs Spice-2000. It use dual guidance, GPS and EO. School object is not moving and is on well known location with known coordinates, including altitude, so using GPS guidance could not miss it as there was no jamming, counter fire, etc. Even if they give wrong coordinates or bomb lost GPS signal, it still have day/night TV channel, with which they could correct mistake an guide it to the target. And they still fail to hit it. Mirage-2000 pilots are not average or beginners, but the best in IAF as Mirage-2000 is responsible for nuclear strikes. Their mission planners are also the best in IAF, but they still fail.

    Whats the final number of Israeli systems that failed India?
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:23 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    Whats the final number of Israeli systems that failed India?

    They have faulty IFF that shot down the Mi17v5, they lost 6 IAF officers and a civilian because Israeli radar doesn't know what a friendly looks like.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:29 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    Whats the final number of Israeli systems that failed India?

    They have faulty IFF that shot down the Mi17v5, they lost 6 IAF officers and a civilian because Israeli radar doesn't know what a friendly looks like.  

    Yeah that's what I heard already. Spyder SAM was supposedly the 'superior' option over Pantsir, and who could forget their propaganda wind-fall for 'killing' and already dead one.....but life has a sense of irony. It's one thing to destroy a non-operating SAM, it's another thing when your operating SAM struggles with basic IFF. Embarassed
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    Post  southpark on Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:39 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    Whats the final number of Israeli systems that failed India?

    They have faulty IFF that shot down the Mi17v5, they lost 6 IAF officers and a civilian because Israeli radar doesn't know what a friendly looks like.  

    Yeah that's what I heard already. Spyder SAM was supposedly the 'superior' option over Pantsir, and who could forget their propaganda wind-fall for 'killing' and already dead one.....but life has a sense of irony. It's one thing to destroy a non-operating SAM, it's another thing when your operating SAM struggles with basic IFF. Embarassed

    To be fair, it may not be the deficiency of Israeli tech but more points to the Indian approach of not having mastery of spectrum of technologies. To be honest, we need to wait a bit more for more details on why the operation went the way it did. I know for a fact that it is a difficult terrain and there is actually not many weapon systems that fight in that kinda of terrain...atleast not that I know off...more details may come out after the elections. But all indications are they shot down the F-16 and the pilot was lynched by their own...I am sure Pakistan by now would have paraded him. If this is true, Indians have some consolation
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    Post  medo on Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:34 pm





    This is now more interesting. There were two planes falling down, one with long smoke trail (F-16?) and one without smoke trail (MiG-21 Bison) in the same location and in the same video. If this is actually F-16, Su-30MKI were far away from LoC, than it is a question, who shot it down. Abhinandan's MiG-21 have all four missiles on the pylons, when it fall down. Was it friendly fire from JF-17, who shot down both F-16 and MiG-21? IAF claim, that only Abhinandan launch R-73 missile, which he didn't, he only got a lock on target, other planes, according to IAF, didn't launch any missile, neither Mirage-2000, neither Su-30MKI.

    https://eurasiantimes.com/su-30-mki-shot-down-amraam-missiles-fired-from-pakistans-f-16s-indian-air-force/

    The Indian Airforce says that it shot down AMRAAM Missiles fired from Pakistan’s F-16 Fighter Jets. The AMRAAM Missiles allegedly missed their intended targets and in fact, one of them was shot down by an IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKI air dominance fighter. EurAsian Times brings to you a report from Business Today.

    Few weeks ago, there was once a claim, that Su-30MKI launch missile to shot down one incoming AMRAAM, so it could be a false claim, that only Abhinandan launch missile. Distance of 40 to 50 km was close enough to launch R-77 back, so maybe Su-30MKI didn't shot down only AMRAAM missile.
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    Post  southpark on Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:29 am

    Indian's clearly said they shot it down with R-77, have you ruled out doctored evidence...it is not easy to fake? As expected details are emerging...initially total denial and then it comes out....
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    Post  medo on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:33 pm

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/did-india-shoot-down-a-pakistani-jet-u-s-count-says-no/

    India’s claim that one of its fighter pilots shot down a Pakistani F-16 fighter jet in an aerial battle between the two nuclear powers in February appears to be wrong. Two senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the situation told Foreign Policy that U.S. personnel recently counted Islamabad’s F-16s and found none missing.

    The findings directly contradict the account of Indian Air Force officials, who said that Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman managed to shoot down a Pakistani F-16 before his own plane was downed by a Pakistani missile.

    India didn't shot down PAF F-16. US count all PAF F-16 jets and found, that none is missing.

    So, the second plane shot down is still mistery. We do not know, if it is from Pakistan or from India and what type it is. Fact is, that India didn't shot down any plane, only their own helicopter Mi-17. At the beginning Pakistan claim to shot down 2 Indian planes. As India claim, that Abhinandan went alone in Pakistani air space without his wingman, than could be, that PAF JF-17 mix one of PAF jets for Indian wingman of Abhinandan and shot down both.


    southpark wrote:Indian's clearly said they shot it down with R-77, have you ruled out doctored evidence...it is not easy to fake? As expected details are emerging...initially total denial and then it comes out....


    No, India claim, Abhinandan shot it down with R-73.
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    Post  southpark on Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:03 pm

    medo wrote:
    India didn't shot down PAF F-16. US count all PAF F-16 jets and found, that none is missing.

    Dude, atleast a dozen of possible theories have been put out there so far from total denial to friendly fire and everything in between from both sides....as I said I will give it some time before accepting "any facts"...your facts seem to change as soon as new statement comes out, in other words you accept what sounds acceptable to you. If only you easily believed what we say in a more consistent manner on other things Smile .
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    Post  adder on Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:05 pm

    DOD spoke person has denied that there was any such counting.
    https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/not-aware-pentagon-on-pak-f-16-count-after-feb-aerial-dogfight-with-iaf/story-Rw4gSknuuSBnMc2EyYe62H.html
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    Post  jhelb on Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:02 am

    Deleting duplicate post


    Last edited by jhelb on Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  jhelb on Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:04 am

    Austin wrote:How The Balakot Strike Was Planned And Successfully Executed

    Austin, I've been meaning to tell you this for quite some time, but refrained from doing so, coz I needed to go through a whole lot of data point.

    These purported strikes never took place. You see, US based sat image providers have no reason to fudge things on this topic. Even if a Spice PGM was used that can allegedly penetrate hardened structure and hit a target, sat images conclusively prove that there are no major entry points in that building that Indian Government says, it struck. Even Russian experts from CAST etc (who have access to high resolution images from Russian satellites) doubt the Indian version.

    What happened is this - since you guys have general elections coming up & Modi is seeking a 2nd term he did not want to take any chance. A full fledged war with Pakistan can go either way (Pakistan actually has the upper hand, believe it or not, because of Chinese, UK & Arab support). But then again, he couldn't be seen by the Indian public as doing nothing despite the terror strike that killed 40 Indian soldiers.

    So the Indian Government instructed the Indian Air Force(IAF) to go supersonic over Pakistan but not to drop any munition. And that's exactly what happened. The following day the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) too went out to display some theatrics over Indian airspace. Had it not been for the maverick IAF Mig 21 pilot there would not have been any losses on either side
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    Post  southpark on Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:35 pm

    jhelb wrote:

    What happened is this - since you guys have general elections coming up & Modi is seeking a 2nd term he did not want to take any chance. A full fledged war with Pakistan can go either way (Pakistan actually has the upper hand, believe it or not, because of Chinese, UK & Arab support). But then again, he couldn't be seen by the Indian public as doing nothing despite the terror strike that killed 40 Indian soldiers.


    Truth is somewhere in the middle....it is probably an election stunt timing wise but also there was a precedent 2 years ago about another raid which was better planned. Not sure why you think Pakistan has upper hand? They pretty much lost every war with India decisively and all the countries you mentioned have been their allies at the time also...UK? I do agree this operation was a botched regardless of the result for India...even China wont get involved to the degree you are thinking in real war....too much trade between them plus the risk of US taking advantage
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    Post  medo on Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:07 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Austin wrote:How The Balakot Strike Was Planned And Successfully Executed

    Austin, I've been meaning to tell you this for quite some time, but refrained from doing so, coz I needed to go through a whole lot of data point.

    These purported strikes never took place. You see, US based sat image providers have no reason to fudge things on this topic. Even if a Spice PGM was used that can allegedly penetrate hardened structure and hit a target, sat images conclusively prove that there are no major entry points in that building that Indian Government says, it struck. Even Russian experts from CAST etc (who have access to high resolution images from Russian satellites) doubt the Indian version.

    What happened is this - since you guys have general elections coming up & Modi is seeking a 2nd term he did not want to take any chance. A full fledged war with Pakistan can go either way (Pakistan actually has the upper hand, believe it or not, because of Chinese, UK & Arab support). But then again, he couldn't be seen by the Indian public as doing nothing despite the terror strike that killed 40 Indian soldiers.

    So the Indian Government instructed the Indian Air Force(IAF) to go supersonic over Pakistan but not to drop any munition. And that's exactly what happened. The following day the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) too went out to display some theatrics over Indian airspace. Had it not been for the maverick IAF Mig 21 pilot there would not have been any losses on either side

    No, Indian jets didn't fly supersonic over Balakot as they didn't fly that deep into Pakistani air space. They fly only few kilometers deep for short time to releas Spice-2000 gliding bombs. Bombs were actually dropped as there are bomb craters and peaces of bombs. Problem is, that they didn't hit the targets, but the hill next to it.

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    Pakistan already invite foreign journalists and military attaches to the targeted Madrassa that they could see the object is intact and still in use.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47882354
    The authorities in Pakistan have allowed foreign media and defence attachés to visit the site of a disputed Indian air strike in February.

    They were given access to an Islamic school in Balakot, where Indian media say militants were killed in retaliation for an attack in Kashmir.

    The large building appeared to be fully intact and the Pakistani army denied it had been used as a terror camp.

    The visit to the school was held on the eve of a general election in India.
    ◾️Pakistan PM calls for Kashmir resolution
    ◾️What is militant group Jaish-e-Mohammad?
    ◾️Why India and Pakistan dispute Kashmir

    Pakistan and India have been engaged in an information war over the Balakot site, where Pakistan says the bombs on 26 February landed in an empty area and hurt no-one.




    India insists it killed a large number of Jaish-e-Mohamed group militants and destroyed their camp in retaliation for a suicide attack two weeks earlier in Indian-administered Kashmir, which killed 40 paramilitary police troopers.

    That attack was the deadliest against Indian forces in Kashmir in decades and raised fears of a new war between India and Pakistan, which are both nuclear powers.

    What were the media shown on Wednesday?

    Foreign journalists and diplomats were taken by the Pakistani army on the visit to Balakot in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa state.

    They were shown a medium-sized crater which the army said had been made by an Indian air force bomb.

    A single house had been slightly damaged by the blast and a man had been injured, the BBC's Usman Zahid reports.

    The visitors also saw some fallen trees.

    They were then taken to the Taleem ul Quran madrassa, the first such visit by foreign media.

    The large hilltop building is said to have capacity for 2,500 children.

    Pakistani army spokesman Maj-Gen Asif Ghafoor insisted the madrassa did "no harm" and that Indian allegations that it was a terror training camp had "no truth".

    Some 150-200 children could be seen reciting the Koran in a mosque at the school.

    However, a teacher and a student interviewed by the BBC said they were all local people and that the madrassa had been shut since the Indian attack.

    While the media were allowed to take interviews they were told to keep them short and it was clear that the tour was being restricted.

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    Post  jhelb on Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:37 pm

    medo wrote:No, Indian jets didn't fly supersonic over Balakot as they didn't fly that deep into Pakistani air space. They fly only few kilometers deep for short time to releas Spice-2000 gliding bombs.

    Not possible to hit the target with Spice 2000 unless they are just a few kilometers from the target.

    medo wrote:Pakistan already invite foreign journalists and military attaches to the targeted Madrassa that they could see the object is intact and still in use.

    Invited 45 days after the strike took place.

    The large building appeared to be fully intact and the Pakistani army denied it had been used as a terror camp.

    So your source is Pakistani military lol! . These are the same guys who denied that Bin Laden has ever visited Pakistan.


    Pakistan is a well known sponsor of  Islamic terrorism worldwide. BBC & British Government are well known backers of Islamic terrorism.


    So that madrassa that India lied about striking was probably still training jihadis. Hence, Pakistan didn't allow the international media to visit that site immediately after the purported air strike.
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    Post  medo on Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:37 pm

    Not possible to hit the target with Spice 2000 unless they are just a few kilometers from the target.

    Spice-2000 is f**king stand off gliding bomb, not old laser guided bomb. It uses GPS guidance, CCD/IIR automatic guidance and CCD/IIR manual guidance from back seat WSO through data link. Indian Mirage-2000 jets went just enough deep in Pakistani air space to drop gliding bombs and turn away. If they went deep to Balakot, they would be shot down by intercepting F-16 fighters. Missing targets that far away is just embarasment for IAF as there was no jamming, lost of GPS signal or firing on them. Theoretically you could not miss the target with this bomb, but IAF proves, that you could.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:42 am

    Theoretically you could not miss the target with this bomb, but IAF proves, that you could.

    Not true... if the Russians had GPS guided bombs during the conflict in Georgia in 2008 they would have missed too... the US turned off the GPS system in Georgia, and could easily have shifted everything 500m in one direction during this raid if they wanted to...
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    Post  medo on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:17 pm



    Indian explanation of the strike in Balakot. Indian Mirage-2000 went 7 km deep in Pakistani air space and drop bombs 50 km away from Balakot, which went to targets by GPS guidance. As there were no problem with GPS signal, it seems IAF give wrong coordinates to bombs, that they miss target. Most probably wrong altitude of the target. Still is a good question, why they didn't track bombs through their CCD/IIR cameras and correct deviation from target manually.


    Not true... if the Russians had GPS guided bombs during the conflict in Georgia in 2008 they would have missed too... the US turned off the GPS system in Georgia, and could easily have shifted everything 500m in one direction during this raid if they wanted to...

    Russia have their own GLONASS, which US could not turn off. Spice-2000 is not just GPS guided bomb, it also have optical guidance through CCD/IIR camera. WSO could any time correct any deviation from fly path to the target.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:46 am

    Russia have their own GLONASS, which US could not turn off. Spice-2000 is not just GPS guided bomb, it also have optical guidance through CCD/IIR camera. WSO could any time correct any deviation from fly path to the target.

    You are ignoring my point... these Israeli weapons are GPS guided and optical and IIR guidance is only as good as the person aiming the weapon... a few shacks on the side of a hill could be a terrorist base or it could be sheds with farm machinery in them an IIR camera can't tell the difference.

    If they are aiming weapons based on GPS coordinates then an IIR camera or optical guidance system wont tell the weapon that the target at that coordinate is wrong, or that the buildings the weapon is headed towards is actually at the wrong coordinates and therefore might not be the buildings you are actually after.

    The WSO would look at the ground at the coordinates given and target individual buildings located there... he is unlikely to have manually calculated the actual current location of the aircraft using a compass and a stopwatch and a map on his knee and then looked at the distance to the target and the angle and said... oops, no, our actual target should be on the next hill along the way...

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:48 am

    Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...

    Even a Smerch battery should have flattened the area in question for rather less than these Israeli weapons probably cost them... and with no risk to aircraft.

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