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    Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

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    Tingsay

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    Post  Tingsay on Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:55 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I figured as much they will do this. Apparently this new corvette will share same design as Lider but being smaller. In this regard, it greatly reduces costs.  They are also saying that this ship will be slightly more expensive than Buyan-M, which would mean it's a cheap system. Get multiple of shipyards building it, and Russia would have a serious navy.

    This "corvette" is just another paper project by Krylov, it was posted here months ago.

    Some members are not up to date on some topics that is all. Happens to all of us.

    https://vpk.name/news/191574_voennomorskoi_flot_poluchit_narodnyii_korvet.html

    What's it say?

    Well, the ship is basically a "budget" corvette. Costs a little more than Karakurts, but has more weapons, bigger displacement etc.
    Very 'Russian' , more cost effective than any other Russian ship. If what they claim is true, construction should start asap.

    But I have a feeling, it's a compromise between Project 20380s and Karakurts. While the Derzky is a compromise between 20380s and Groshkovs.
    That's not bad in and of itself, but it seems they foresee  the fact that the Russian Navy will continue to be the whipping boy of the Russian military  and that the speed in ship construction won't increase by lot for the foreseeable future.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:28 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I figured as much they will do this. Apparently this new corvette will share same design as Lider but being smaller. In this regard, it greatly reduces costs.  They are also saying that this ship will be slightly more expensive than Buyan-M, which would mean it's a cheap system. Get multiple of shipyards building it, and Russia would have a serious navy.

    This "corvette" is just another paper project by Krylov, it was posted here months ago.

    Some members are not up to date on some topics that is all. Happens to all of us.

    https://vpk.name/news/191574_voennomorskoi_flot_poluchit_narodnyii_korvet.html

    What's it say?

    Pretty much about the ship and the interested parties in MoD about it. As noted before, the navy will face its budget cuts while the army is going to actually get budget increase. So in this regard, having to cut the budget of the navy but at same time Putin stating the importance it is for fielding a large navy in today's conflicts, I imagine that such ships will be rather important for Russia since that will pretty much meet all criteria mentioned. I'll give reason:
    - Almost as cheap as a Buyan-M
    - Having far more missiles than Buyan-M
    - Having real AD missiles than Buyan-M
    - Displacement roughly 2,000T

    This alone is indication that it could very well fit within the demands/needs of the Navy without breaking the bank. You get a semi-large ship with short range and long range AD missiles along with 24x Kalibr/Onyx missiles. This alone would make it better than some corvettes in Russia's navy and far better than any small missile ship.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:25 am

    Pella undergoing upgrades, more pics in link:
    Whats the upgrade though? Didn't seem to explicitly say in the link Question
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    SLB

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    Post  SLB on Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:02 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I figured as much they will do this. Apparently this new corvette will share same design as Lider but being smaller. In this regard, it greatly reduces costs.  They are also saying that this ship will be slightly more expensive than Buyan-M, which would mean it's a cheap system. Get multiple of shipyards building it, and Russia would have a serious navy.

    This "corvette" is just another paper project by Krylov, it was posted here months ago.

    Some members are not up to date on some topics that is all. Happens to all of us.

    https://vpk.name/news/191574_voennomorskoi_flot_poluchit_narodnyii_korvet.html


    IMHO this is the ship that should be built instead of the LCS wanabee that is the 20386.
    I understand that there is still R&D to be done, but keep building 20380 until that is completed.
    And maybe some weaponry could be traded for more autonomy, and one still would have
    a very potent platform with more range.

    I understand the Russian navy wanting to support its home industry by buying a platform (20386)
    clearly intended for the export market, but following that path it will end up with
    little more than the 20380 capabilities in vessels the size of a 11356.
    That's while I understood the 20385 wasn't viable with it's foreign engines, I never
    bought the argument that it was horrendously expensive.
    Does anyone realy think the 20386 will be cheaper than the 20385? Rolling Eyes
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    SLB

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    Post  SLB on Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:34 pm

    And, while I'm at it I'll expand on the previous post to address other matters
    related to the Russian navy and shipbuilding.
    By all means update the Kuznetsov, the Kirovs and the Udaloys, and get the Gorshkov-M started,
    but that should be all for destroyer size and larger surface vessels.
    No LHDs, no Liders, no new aircraft carriers, please.
    Spare the rest of the money for what should be the real priority: the conventional and nuclear submarine fleet.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:46 pm

    SLB wrote:.......................
    IMHO this is the ship that should be built instead of the LCS wanabee that is the 20386.
    I understand that there is still R&D to be done, but keep building 20380 until that is completed.
    And maybe some weaponry could be traded for more autonomy, and one still would have
    a very potent platform with more range.

    I understand the Russian navy wanting to support its home industry by buying a platform (20386)
    clearly intended for the export market, but following that path it will end up with
    little more than the 20380 capabilities in vessels the size of a 11356.
    That's while I understood the 20385 wasn't viable with it's foreign engines, I never
    bought the argument that it was horrendously expensive.
    Does anyone realy think the 20386 will be cheaper than the 20385? Rolling Eyes

    This is pile of nonsense that needs to be forgotten ASAP before it becomes a meme like that anime style ''Lider'' destroyer or ''Shtorm'' ''supercarrier'' by the same design studio.

    This thing may have more missiles than 20380 but so does 20385 Gremashi. And just like 20385 Gremashi it is overstuffed but without benefit of longer range and endurance that Gremashi has.

    Other than armament this ''corvette'' is a joke.

    20386 Derzkii at least has the benefit of being under construction and being able to sail for more than couple of weeks.

    And claim that it's going to be cheaper than anything is bullshit of highest order. Armaments alone cost more than Buyan.

    20386 may or may not be cheaper than 20385 but it doesn't matter because it is usable vessel and not some idiotic fan-art like this crap they are trying to peddle.

    Just another scam. Third in a row from these idiots.
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    SLB

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    Post  SLB on Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:53 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SLB wrote:.......................
    IMHO this is the ship that should be built instead of the LCS wanabee that is the 20386.
    I understand that there is still R&D to be done, but keep building 20380 until that is completed.
    And maybe some weaponry could be traded for more autonomy, and one still would have
    a very potent platform with more range.

    I understand the Russian navy wanting to support its home industry by buying a platform (20386)
    clearly intended for the export market, but following that path it will end up with
    little more than the 20380 capabilities in vessels the size of a 11356.
    That's while I understood the 20385 wasn't viable with it's foreign engines, I never
    bought the argument that it was horrendously expensive.
    Does anyone realy think the 20386 will be cheaper than the 20385? Rolling Eyes

    This is pile of nonsense that needs to be forgotten ASAP before it becomes a meme like that anime style ''Lider'' destroyer or ''Shtorm'' ''supercarrier'' by the same design studio.

    This thing may have more missiles than 20380 but so does 20385 Gremashi. And just like 20385 Gremashi it is overstuffed but without benefit of longer range and endurance that Gremashi has.

    Other than armament this ''corvette'' is a joke.

    20386 Derzkii at least has the benefit of being under construction and being able to sail for more than couple of weeks.

    And claim that it's going to be cheaper than anything is bullshit of highest order. Armaments alone cost more than Buyan.

    20386 may or may not be cheaper than 20385 but it doesn't matter because it is usable vessel and not some idiotic fan-art like this crap they are trying to peddle.

    Just another scam. Third in a row from these idiots.



    It may well be truth that that this "corvette" is a joke and the third "scam" in a row from Krylov Institute.
    I also agree that the unit price of such ship must be way above than a Buyan-M.

    But it is also truth that 20386 is oversized and under-armed . It is the size of a 11356 so it must cost at least the
    same and to make it worse doesn't feature UKSK.

    Containerised weapon systems belong in patrol boats, assault ships, aircraft carriers and the like.
    Not in corvettes, frigates, destroyers or cruisers, since they are not efficient in terms of volume compared to VLS systems.

    It is a stupid idea in the LCS and it is a stupid idea in the 20386.
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    T-47

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    Post  T-47 on Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:23 pm

    Not arguing but still I'd like point out some stuffs.

    1. Again Pella is private shipyard, they won't do anything unless they see profit. They'll compromise a little to none about the price but yeah you can expect complete professionalism from them. Also I'm not sure if they have the sizable shipyard or the capability for Derzky right now, besides they are busy building Karakurts and other boats for their other clients.

    2. I'm not falling for Krylov Institute. There are already mentioned mismatch between the description and the picture by Big_Gazza. Also its hard to believe with that much weapon it'll be just 2KT! With a price near as Buyan-M lol! lol! lol! Personally I think Krylov needs a reform. They need to do better than producing troll ship models.

    3. Project 20386 is never intended to be an LCS. Just compare the armaments, LCS are tiny against it. 20386 are basically for supporting naval infantry and navy special forces. Thats why there are no fixed VLS. You can remove the container and put whatever the mission need ie BK-16/10 boats or other things. This ship is not the mainstream corvette. Beside this function it also has 16 Redut AD. Which even 11356 lacks! Another point is, it is not the size of 11356 (124M vs 109M, 20380/20381 104.5M and 20385 106M). So don't compare them. And its clearly not oversized and under-armed. Actually this new Krylov troll ship is undersized and over-armed!

    4. Just a thought of mine, there can be a version of Buyan with Redut only! They are capable of going through rivers and canals. So basically a river based Redut.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:42 pm

    T-47 wrote:Not arguing but still I'd like point out some stuffs.

    1. Again Pella is private shipyard, they won't do anything unless they see profit. They'll compromise a little to none about the price but yeah you can expect complete professionalism from them. Also I'm not sure if they have the sizable shipyard or the capability for Derzky right now, besides they are busy building Karakurts and other boats for their other clients.

    2. I'm not falling for Krylov Institute. There are already mentioned mismatch between the description and the picture by Big_Gazza. Also its hard to believe with that much weapon it'll be just 2KT! With a price near as Buyan-M lol! lol! lol! Personally I think Krylov needs a reform. They need to do better than producing troll ship models.

    3. Project 20386 is never intended to be an LCS. Just compare the armaments, LCS are tiny against it. 20386 are basically for supporting naval infantry and navy special forces. Thats why there are no fixed VLS. You can remove the container and put whatever the mission need ie BK-16/10 boats or other things. This ship is not the mainstream corvette. Beside this function it also has 16 Redut AD. Which even 11356 lacks! Another point is, it is not the size of 11356 (124M vs 109M, 20380/20381 104.5M and 20385 106M). So don't compare them. And its clearly not oversized and under-armed. Actually this new Krylov troll ship is undersized and over-armed!

    4. Just a thought of mine, there can be a version of Buyan with Redut only! They are capable of going through rivers and canals. So basically a river based Redut.

    Most of Russian ships are undersized and over armed.  Krylov design is based upon the Lider design but shortened, and using commonality of parts will greatly reduce price, automation reduces number of people onboard.  Seeing as you are not building ships I assume, I figure your knowledge on the matter compared to Krylov is in serious question.  Already the MoD has shown interest so I am assuming their experts will do the preliminary tests of the design.

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SLB wrote:.......................
    IMHO this is the ship that should be built instead of the LCS wanabee that is the 20386.
    I understand that there is still R&D to be done, but keep building 20380 until that is completed.
    And maybe some weaponry could be traded for more autonomy, and one still would have
    a very potent platform with more range.

    I understand the Russian navy wanting to support its home industry by buying a platform (20386)
    clearly intended for the export market, but following that path it will end up with
    little more than the 20380 capabilities in vessels the size of a 11356.
    That's while I understood the 20385 wasn't viable with it's foreign engines, I never
    bought the argument that it was horrendously expensive.
    Does anyone realy think the 20386 will be cheaper than the 20385? Rolling Eyes

    This is pile of nonsense that needs to be forgotten ASAP before it becomes a meme like that anime style ''Lider'' destroyer or ''Shtorm'' ''supercarrier'' by the same design studio.

    This thing may have more missiles than 20380 but so does 20385 Gremashi. And just like 20385 Gremashi it is overstuffed but without benefit of longer range and endurance that Gremashi has.

    Other than armament this ''corvette'' is a joke.

    20386 Derzkii at least has the benefit of being under construction and being able to sail for more than couple of weeks.

    And claim that it's going to be cheaper than anything is bullshit of highest order. Armaments alone cost more than Buyan.

    20386 may or may not be cheaper than 20385 but it doesn't matter because it is usable vessel and not some idiotic fan-art like this crap they are trying to peddle.

    Just another scam. Third in a row from these idiots.

    You are aware that various professionals within the MoD themselves have shown interest in their designs, right?  Or are you simply being stupid for the sake of it?  As well, the intended purpose of the navy of the future is shore line defense more so than open water defense, excluding what may be in the Mediterranean.  And in most cases, of course the weapons will be more expensive than the ship, that is the whole point of the matter.

    I am curious to know your expertise in this matter that you can even proclaim the MoD personnel to be idiots.  Since you are smarter than them, you will need to explain to them how they will be able to afford these corvettes like Gremashi, with a budget that will be half of that what it was prior, for the navy (~2T Rubles compared to ~4T rubles) while being able to fulfill what Putin demanded for Navy in the next 13 years. To 20386 is expensive and the first ship was laid down in 2016, and wont be active till 2021. That is not only beyond comprehensible but it will not even come close to filling the needs of the Navy by the agreed 2030 date. So they will definitely need something else unless they speed up and expand construction of 20386 and thus reduce prices of the ship by commonality of parts.
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    SLB

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    Post  SLB on Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:56 pm

    T-47 wrote:Not arguing but still I'd like point out some stuffs.

    1. Again Pella is private shipyard, they won't do anything unless they see profit. They'll compromise a little to none about the price but yeah you can expect complete professionalism from them. Also I'm not sure if they have the sizable shipyard or the capability for Derzky right now, besides they are busy building Karakurts and other boats for their other clients.

    2. I'm not falling for Krylov Institute. There are already mentioned mismatch between the description and the picture by Big_Gazza. Also its hard to believe with that much weapon it'll be just 2KT! With a price near as Buyan-M lol! lol! lol! Personally I think Krylov needs a reform. They need to do better than producing troll ship models.

    3. Project 20386 is never intended to be an LCS. Just compare the armaments, LCS are tiny against it. 20386 are basically for supporting naval infantry and navy special forces. Thats why there are no fixed VLS. You can remove the container and put whatever the mission need ie BK-16/10 boats or other things. This ship is not the mainstream corvette. Beside this function it also has 16 Redut AD. Which even 11356 lacks! Another point is, it is not the size of 11356 (124M vs 109M, 20380/20381 104.5M and 20385 106M). So don't compare them. And its clearly not oversized and under-armed. Actually this new Krylov troll ship is undersized and over-armed!

    4. Just a thought of mine, there can be a version of Buyan with Redut only! They are capable of going through rivers and canals. So basically a river based Redut.


    So the 20386 has 4 more Redut VLS than the 20380 (33%more), all the while weighing 1200 ton more (55% more !). Not really impressed here.

    Supporting naval infantry and navy special forces in what corner of the empire? This is not the US of A Imperial Navy, it is the Russian Navy.
    Let the american morons get their special forces troops killed half world away, Russian Navy needs much more the capability to fire anti-ship
    and land attack stand off missiles, than to insert/extract half a dozen special forces guys in a lost hellhole.

    IMHO corvette with the 20385 armament but powered by Russian engines would have been a better concept than the 20386...
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:07 pm

    SLB wrote:
    T-47 wrote:Not arguing but still I'd like point out some stuffs.

    1. Again Pella is private shipyard, they won't do anything unless they see profit. They'll compromise a little to none about the price but yeah you can expect complete professionalism from them. Also I'm not sure if they have the sizable shipyard or the capability for Derzky right now, besides they are busy building Karakurts and other boats for their other clients.

    2. I'm not falling for Krylov Institute. There are already mentioned mismatch between the description and the picture by Big_Gazza. Also its hard to believe with that much weapon it'll be just 2KT! With a price near as Buyan-M lol! lol! lol! Personally I think Krylov needs a reform. They need to do better than producing troll ship models.

    3. Project 20386 is never intended to be an LCS. Just compare the armaments, LCS are tiny against it. 20386 are basically for supporting naval infantry and navy special forces. Thats why there are no fixed VLS. You can remove the container and put whatever the mission need ie BK-16/10 boats or other things. This ship is not the mainstream corvette. Beside this function it also has 16 Redut AD. Which even 11356 lacks! Another point is, it is not the size of 11356 (124M vs 109M, 20380/20381 104.5M and 20385 106M). So don't compare them. And its clearly not oversized and under-armed. Actually this new Krylov troll ship is undersized and over-armed!

    4. Just a thought of mine, there can be a version of Buyan with Redut only! They are capable of going through rivers and canals. So basically a river based Redut.


    So the 20386 has 4 more Redut VLS than the 20380 (33%more), all the while weighing 1200 ton more (55% more !). Not really impressed here.

    Supporting naval infantry and navy special forces in what corner of the empire? This is not the US of A Imperial Navy, it is the Russian Navy.
    Let the american morons get their special forces troops killed half world away, Russian Navy needs much more the capability to fire anti-ship
    and land attack stand off missiles, than to insert/extract half a dozen special forces guys in a lost hellhole.

    IMHO corvette with the 20385 armament but powered by Russian engines would have been a better concept than the 20386...

    I don't know if design allowed it. 20386 is designed around the Saturn engines.
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    Post  SLB on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:27 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    SLB wrote:
    T-47 wrote:Not arguing but still I'd like point out some stuffs.

    1. Again Pella is private shipyard, they won't do anything unless they see profit. They'll compromise a little to none about the price but yeah you can expect complete professionalism from them. Also I'm not sure if they have the sizable shipyard or the capability for Derzky right now, besides they are busy building Karakurts and other boats for their other clients.

    2. I'm not falling for Krylov Institute. There are already mentioned mismatch between the description and the picture by Big_Gazza. Also its hard to believe with that much weapon it'll be just 2KT! With a price near as Buyan-M lol! lol! lol! Personally I think Krylov needs a reform. They need to do better than producing troll ship models.

    3. Project 20386 is never intended to be an LCS. Just compare the armaments, LCS are tiny against it. 20386 are basically for supporting naval infantry and navy special forces. Thats why there are no fixed VLS. You can remove the container and put whatever the mission need ie BK-16/10 boats or other things. This ship is not the mainstream corvette. Beside this function it also has 16 Redut AD. Which even 11356 lacks! Another point is, it is not the size of 11356 (124M vs 109M, 20380/20381 104.5M and 20385 106M). So don't compare them. And its clearly not oversized and under-armed. Actually this new Krylov troll ship is undersized and over-armed!

    4. Just a thought of mine, there can be a version of Buyan with Redut only! They are capable of going through rivers and canals. So basically a river based Redut.


    So the 20386 has 4 more Redut VLS than the 20380 (33%more), all the while weighing 1200 ton more (55% more !). Not really impressed here.

    Supporting naval infantry and navy special forces in what corner of the empire? This is not the US of A Imperial Navy, it is the Russian Navy.
    Let the american morons get their special forces troops killed half world away, Russian Navy needs much more the capability to fire anti-ship
    and land attack stand off missiles, than to insert/extract half a dozen special forces guys in a lost hellhole.

    IMHO corvette with the 20385 armament but powered by Russian engines would have been a better concept than the 20386...

    I don't know if design allowed it.  20386 is designed around the Saturn engines.

    Well, I think one can design a ship with 1 UKSK, 16 redut cells, paket, and a helicopter around Saturn engines...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:20 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:.......................
    You are aware that various professionals within the MoD themselves have shown interest in their designs, right?  
    .....

    MOD shows interest in everything. It doesn't mean jack shit in the real world. Anime-Lider destroyer and Shtorm supercarrier ring a bell?

    miketheterrible wrote:......
    I am curious to know your expertise in this matter that you can even proclaim the MoD personnel to be idiots.  
    .....

    I proclaimed idiots from Krylov to be idiots. I never mentioned MOD (although they got their moments)

    miketheterrible wrote:.....
    Since you are smarter than them, you will need to explain to them how they will be able to afford these corvettes like Gremashi, with a budget that will be half of that what it was prior, for the navy (~2T Rubles compared to ~4T rubles) while being able to fulfill what Putin demanded for Navy in the next 13 years.
    ......

    Simple: they won't. Putin will have to pay for stuff he demands. Otherwise, tone it down.

    miketheterrible wrote:.....
    20386 is expensive and the first ship was laid down in 2016, and wont be active till 2021.  
    .....

    And this mini-Anime-Lider scam will be at least as expensive, it will laid down much later than 2016 and won't be active until much later than 2021.

    miketheterrible wrote:.....
     So they will definitely need something else unless they speed up and expand construction of 20386 and thus reduce prices of the ship by commonality of parts.

    And like you said, they will have to speed up and expand construction of 20386 and thus reduce prices of the ship by commonality of parts.

    What they SHOULD NOT do is to waste time and money on yet another overlapping inferior ship model like some Soviet morons.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:30 pm

    SLB wrote:.........
    Supporting naval infantry and navy special forces in what corner of the empire? This is not the US of A Imperial Navy, it is the Russian Navy. Let the american morons get their special forces troops killed half world away, .....

    Yes it is not US Navy, it's Russian Navy and Russian Navy's main purpose is to go after submarines, not surface ships. Surface ships can't nuke Russian cities unlike submarines.

    And going after submarines is 20386's main purpose.

    SLB wrote:.........
    Russian Navy needs much more the capability to fire anti-ship and land attack stand off missiles, than to insert/extract half a dozen special forces guys in a lost hellhole..............

    Firing anti-ship and land attack stand off missiles is on bottom of priority list for Russian Navy.

    Hostile submarines are located neither on surface nor land.


    SLB wrote:.........
    Well, I think one can design a ship with 1 UKSK, 16 redut cells, paket, and a helicopter around Saturn engines...

    Yes you can and they did. It's called 20386 Derzkii corvette. Foloving vessels are to get UKSK instead of Uran.

    Remember how Steregushii became Gremashii? Same thing here only from as early as second ship.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:10 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:.......................
    You are aware that various professionals within the MoD themselves have shown interest in their designs, right?  
    .....

    MOD shows interest in everything. It doesn't mean jack shit in the real world. Anime-Lider destroyer and Shtorm supercarrier ring a bell?

    miketheterrible wrote:......
    I am curious to know your expertise in this matter that you can even proclaim the MoD personnel to be idiots.  
    .....

    I proclaimed idiots from Krylov to be idiots. I never mentioned MOD (although they got their moments)

    miketheterrible wrote:.....
    Since you are smarter than them, you will need to explain to them how they will be able to afford these corvettes like Gremashi, with a budget that will be half of that what it was prior, for the navy (~2T Rubles compared to ~4T rubles) while being able to fulfill what Putin demanded for Navy in the next 13 years.
    ......

    Simple: they won't. Putin will have to pay for stuff he demands. Otherwise, tone it down.

    miketheterrible wrote:.....
    20386 is expensive and the first ship was laid down in 2016, and wont be active till 2021.  
    .....

    And this mini-Anime-Lider scam will be at least as expensive, it will laid down much later than 2016 and won't be active until much later than 2021.

    miketheterrible wrote:.....
     So they will definitely need something else unless they speed up and expand construction of 20386 and thus reduce prices of the ship by commonality of parts.

    And like you said, they will have to speed up and expand construction of 20386 and thus reduce prices of the ship by commonality of parts.

    What they SHOULD NOT do is to waste time and money on yet another overlapping inferior ship model like some Soviet morons.

    You are aware that they are still looking at both carriers and Lider, right?  They never even mentioned this year or next year either regarding the ships.  There is a thing called "planning ahead", maybe something you are not familiar of.  Your kind kept saying same about PAK FA, how delightfully great it was to see so many of you choke your own words.

    "Lider, Armata, PAK FA, Shtrom, etc etc etc will never come out.  They will never be made.  They will never be developed"  Yeah yeah yeah.  So far, two of them are, now two more.  I just bet the Russians are reading what some two bit numpty from Serbia is saying about their MiC and what they can, cannot do and what they will and will not do or what is even best for them.  News flash, we are nobodies.  Nor do we have inside info.

    I'll put this into perspective for you - there are a lot more than what is being built.  Simply enough, you don't know and neither do I.  What I find irritating how people like you always say what is and what isn't without actually being there or being in the position to actually say.  Yeah, you think you are very smart, we get it.  But I figure Putin, Russian MoD and alike are smarter than you, or I for that matter.  And they will get what they need.  If you think that the research and development of marine Krylov is all shit, they wouldn't exist.  Actually, they are still funded for a reason.  If they are wasting government funding, then they will be taken to court, like Sukhoi is currently.

    They may, or may not bother to build this ship. All in all, this is a kind of ship Russia needs, especially if they can keep costs down. Since neither you nor I know what the cost is exactly, and what is the plans, then I guess we can wager that if you think that it will never happen, you are full of shit. Just like I would be to say it will happen. Maybe it will, maybe it wont. Maybe they will go for more small corvettes/missile boats, who knows. But they already set in stone exactly what they will be doing, if you like it or not.

    http://tass.com/politics/957125
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:27 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:..................

    You are aware that they are still looking at both carriers and Lider, right?  ....

    One carrier from fantasy land, not two. And one anime destroyer.

    Looking (in disbelief) is all any remotely intelligent human would do with those abominations.

    Spending money on them is for idiots.

    miketheterrible wrote:....  There is a thing called "planning ahead"....

    Yes there is, that is why they will not waste time and money on anime fan art made by idiots. What was last usable ship these particular morons designed that got built?

    miketheterrible wrote:..................
    Your kind kept saying same about PAK FA, how delightfully great it was to see so many of you choke your own words.
    ....

    My kind? Oh please do tell me more about ''my kind''...

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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:32 pm

    Like it or not asshole, reality is reality.  Like I said, they design and send off for development if demanded.  They also design other sub systems too.  Hence why they are kept.  Even now, after Zvezda plant is built, they are talking about carriers again.  That is the MoD saying it, not some company either.  But please, do tell us what they need and what they will get.  Your kind, are the people who love to go on, and on and on about "oh this is shit.  This wont Happen.  This will happen".  I bet you would never have even figured Russia would enter in Syria but low and behold they did.  These are all the same things I hear countless of times from the same kind of people who talked about how Sukhoi cannot do this or that to develop the PAK FA.  You may have been on mp.net, so you may remember quite well.  If not, then I suggest you go back and read.  Many figured Armata would never exist either.  Oh you know, who needs Armata or PAK FA? Waste of money and time.  Hell, why bother with having a military at all?  In this regard, a Navy?

    Like I said, a numpty from Serbia telling what Russia can and cannot do, and what they will and will not do.  If you are so fucking smart, go and get a job over there.  Otherwise, shut the fuck up already with your predictions and what you would do as grand admiral of the Russian navy or whatever.

    Did you also predict the current corvettes? Did you predict the issues happening? While you are at it, tell us how your crystal ball showed us the results of Redut and or the issues behind it?  Maybe we should go further and talk about Kuznetsov and how they plan to keep that if they wont build new carriers or whatever bullshit you think?  Oh, they don't need them? OK.  Then tell us why they wont build any new destroyers? They don't need those either, right?  I take it, no need for any kind of blue water navy at all.  Correct?\

    Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said the contract for building an aircraft carrier might be signed by the end of 2025. And Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov said a sketch project of what may become Russia’s aircraft carrier of the future had been presented to the Defense Ministry.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/963756

    Say what you will of Rogozin, but Borisov is a man to his word.  So if you also think he is full of shit, then you are helpless.

    http://tass.com/defense/958156

    Read this.  Go over it, and get over yourself. Notice they quote names? Navy’s Deputy Chief Viktor Bursuk? Not "Papadragon from butt fuck nowhere in Serbia"
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:55 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Like it or not asshole, reality is reality.  Like I said, they design and send off for development if demanded.  They also design other sub systems too.  Hence why they are kept.  Even now, after Zvezda plant is built, they are talking about carriers again.  That is the MoD saying it, not some company either.  But please, do tell us what they need and what they will get.  Your kind, are the people who love to go on, and on and on about "oh this is shit.  This wont Happen.  This will happen".  I bet you would never have even figured Russia would enter in Syria but low and behold they did.  These are all the same things I hear countless of times from the same kind of people who talked about how Sukhoi cannot do this or that to develop the PAK FA.  You may have been on mp.net, so you may remember quite well.  If not, then I suggest you go back and read.  Many figured Armata would never exist either.  Oh you know, who needs Armata or PAK FA? Waste of money and time.  Hell, why bother with having a military at all?  In this regard, a Navy?

    Like I said, a numpty from Serbia telling what Russia can and cannot do, and what they will and will not do.  If you are so fucking smart, go and get a job over there.  Otherwise, shut the fuck up already with your predictions and what you would do as grand admiral of the Russian navy or whatever.

    Did you also predict the current corvettes? Did you predict the issues happening? While you are at it, tell us how your crystal ball showed us the results of Redut and or the issues behind it?  Maybe we should go further and talk about Kuznetsov and how they plan to keep that if they wont build new carriers or whatever bullshit you think?  Oh, they don't need them? OK.  Then tell us why they wont build any new destroyers? They don't need those either, right?  I take it, no need for any kind of blue water navy at all.  Correct?\

    Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said the contract for building an aircraft carrier might be signed by the end of 2025. And Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov said a sketch project of what may become Russia’s aircraft carrier of the future had been presented to the Defense Ministry.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/963756

    Say what you will of Rogozin, but Borisov is a man to his word.  So if you also think he is full of shit, then you are helpless.

    http://tass.com/defense/958156

    Read this.  Go over it, and get over yourself.  Notice they quote names? Navy’s Deputy Chief Viktor Bursuk? Not "Papadragon from butt fuck nowhere in Serbia"


    And how about you go fuck yourself you shit-snorting cum dumpster?

    They can't build a frigate in two decades but they will build functioning life sized anime fanart?

    Sure, no problem.

    So do I mark completion date as 2250 or 2350?

    You know, so I can plan when to crack open champagne... drunken
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Like it or not asshole, reality is reality.  Like I said, they design and send off for development if demanded.  They also design other sub systems too.  Hence why they are kept.  Even now, after Zvezda plant is built, they are talking about carriers again.  That is the MoD saying it, not some company either.  But please, do tell us what they need and what they will get.  Your kind, are the people who love to go on, and on and on about "oh this is shit.  This wont Happen.  This will happen".  I bet you would never have even figured Russia would enter in Syria but low and behold they did.  These are all the same things I hear countless of times from the same kind of people who talked about how Sukhoi cannot do this or that to develop the PAK FA.  You may have been on mp.net, so you may remember quite well.  If not, then I suggest you go back and read.  Many figured Armata would never exist either.  Oh you know, who needs Armata or PAK FA? Waste of money and time.  Hell, why bother with having a military at all?  In this regard, a Navy?

    Like I said, a numpty from Serbia telling what Russia can and cannot do, and what they will and will not do.  If you are so fucking smart, go and get a job over there.  Otherwise, shut the fuck up already with your predictions and what you would do as grand admiral of the Russian navy or whatever.

    Did you also predict the current corvettes? Did you predict the issues happening? While you are at it, tell us how your crystal ball showed us the results of Redut and or the issues behind it?  Maybe we should go further and talk about Kuznetsov and how they plan to keep that if they wont build new carriers or whatever bullshit you think?  Oh, they don't need them? OK.  Then tell us why they wont build any new destroyers? They don't need those either, right?  I take it, no need for any kind of blue water navy at all.  Correct?\

    Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said the contract for building an aircraft carrier might be signed by the end of 2025. And Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov said a sketch project of what may become Russia’s aircraft carrier of the future had been presented to the Defense Ministry.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/963756

    Say what you will of Rogozin, but Borisov is a man to his word.  So if you also think he is full of shit, then you are helpless.

    http://tass.com/defense/958156

    Read this.  Go over it, and get over yourself.  Notice they quote names? Navy’s Deputy Chief Viktor Bursuk? Not "Papadragon from butt fuck nowhere in Serbia"


    And how about you go fuck yourself you shit-snorting cum dumpster?

    They can't build a frigate in two decades but they will build functioning life sized anime fanart?

    Sure, no problem.

    So do I mark completion date as 2250 or 2350?

    You know, so I can plan when to crack open champagne... drunken

    How about this Serb, why don't you wait and see.  They chose a deadline when they will decide, so why not wait till that deadline comes to find out if they laid down a ship or not of that design?  They managed to build Frigates in a decade.  I don't know where you get that from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Grigorovich-class_frigate

    Maybe you are just acting stupid for no reason other than trying to sound smart.  It isn't working though.  I imagine you work for the shipbuilding plants in Serbia that explains all the time on your hands and your expertise? Laughing
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:03 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:.................

    How about this Serb, why don't you wait and see?  They managed to build Frigates in a decade.  I don't know where you get that from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Grigorovich-class_frigate

    Maybe you are just acting stupid for no reason other than trying to sound smart.  It isn't working though.  I imagine you work for the shipbuilding plants in Serbia that explains all the time on your hands? Laughing

    So it's working and it got accepted into service?

    HEAVENS BE PRAISED!!! cheers

    For a while there I thought that they couldn't get missiles to work even after 10th factory trial and that they got stuck on 4 ships in class without even ordering more for some nebulous reason...

    Good thing I was wrong. russia
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:.................

    How about this Serb, why don't you wait and see?  They managed to build Frigates in a decade.  I don't know where you get that from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Grigorovich-class_frigate

    Maybe you are just acting stupid for no reason other than trying to sound smart.  It isn't working though.  I imagine you work for the shipbuilding plants in Serbia that explains all the time on your hands? Laughing

    So it's working and it got accepted into service?

    HEAVENS BE PRAISED!!! cheers

    For a while there I thought that they couldn't get missiles to work even after 10th factory trial and that they got stuck on 4 ships in class without even ordering more for some nebulous reason...

    Good thing I was wrong. russia

    It isn't using Redut, you are thinking of the wrong ship.  You are thinking Gorshkov. Which the issue was 1 missile type BTW and apparently, that passed remaining tests too as of recently.

    Anyway, this is boring.
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    Post  Tingsay on Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:39 am

    SLB wrote:

    So the 20386 has 4 more Redut VLS than the 20380 (33%more), all the while weighing 1200 ton more (55% more !). Not really impressed here.

    Supporting naval infantry and navy special forces in what corner of the empire? This is not the US of A Imperial Navy, it is the Russian Navy.
    Let the american morons get their special forces troops killed half world away, Russian Navy needs much more the capability to fire anti-ship
    and land attack stand off missiles, than to insert/extract half a dozen special forces guys in a lost hellhole.

    IMHO corvette with the 20385 armament but powered by Russian engines would have been a better concept than the 20386...

    You need to reassess your view of the Derzky. It is not meant to be an LCS.
    It is actually one of the better ships currently being made right now. The internal space that can hold a variety of different weapons and equipments is very very creative, making it a flexible ship.
    Do you need more Kalibr's in a particular situation?    Take out/in equipments and Rearrange
    Do you need a speed boat or two and feel extra kalibr is useless?    Take out/in equipments and Rearrange
    Do you need more UAVs in a particular situation?    Take out/in equipments and Rearrange

    I can go on....

    Criticize the other new ships planned but hands off on the Derzky. That is a fine ship.
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    Post  SLB on Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:11 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SLB wrote:.........
    Supporting naval infantry and navy special forces in what corner of the empire? This is not the US of A Imperial Navy, it is the Russian Navy. Let the american morons get their special forces troops killed half world away, .....

    Yes it is not US Navy, it's Russian Navy and Russian Navy's main purpose is to go after submarines, not surface ships. Surface ships can't nuke Russian cities unlike submarines.

    And going after submarines is 20386's main purpose.

    SLB wrote:.........
    Russian Navy needs much more the capability to fire anti-ship and land attack stand off missiles, than to insert/extract half a dozen special forces guys in a lost hellhole..............

    Firing anti-ship and land attack stand off missiles is on bottom of priority list for Russian Navy.

    Hostile submarines are located neither on surface nor land.


    SLB wrote:.........
    Well, I think one can design a ship with 1 UKSK, 16 redut cells, paket, and a helicopter around Saturn engines...

    Yes you can and they did. It's called 20386 Derzkii corvette. Foloving vessels are to get UKSK instead of Uran.

    Remember how Steregushii became Gremashii? Same thing here only from as early as second ship.


    Well I had heard nothing on that front, but if that is the case, when I see a 20386 with UKSK being launched,
    I'll take back my pessimistic outlook on that ship.

    I also agree that ASuW is the biggest priority, but the capability of firing Oniks, or possibly Zirkon is also very important.
    Uran is all good and fine, but not so good for targeting large ships
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:44 pm

    '

    Not military vessels but Zvezda just started working on 4 (FOUR) vessels simultaneously. This is how you build ships, not one at a time with decade long pause between 4 ships

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/97746/

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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:54 pm

    This is Russia's most modern shipyard and biggest too after its ready to build 114,000 ton ships. This shipyard will be classified as strategic while the other shipyards will have to get their shit together.

    Sponsored content

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