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    France Foreign Policy and Diplomacy

    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:32 pm

    Hole wrote:Well said, GarryB. thumbsup

    By the way, Macron doesn´t have any ideas. He is only saying what his masters tell him to say. They wanted to break Russia apart and conquer it to get control over her ressources but that failed so they try to pretend that they wanted to be "partners" all the time and were just misunderstood.

    Your hostility towards France appears pathological.

    Macron has quite interesting ideas. We see China and USA as rivals and potential enemies. We see Merkels Germany weakness and try to stand against that.


    Last edited by Aristide on Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:34 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Hole wrote:Well said, GarryB. thumbsup

    By the way, Macron doesn´t have any ideas. He is only saying what his masters tell him to say. They wanted to break Russia apart and conquer it to get control over her ressources but that failed so they try to pretend that they wanted to be "partners" all the time and were just misunderstood.

    Exactly, the old trick failed, it's time for another scam.  

    Russia needs to culturally assimilate the fact that the west is its pathological enemy.   And this includes all of the fraud brothers
    like the Ukrs and other Slavs.   They are all freaking inadequates who are trying to victimize the wrong victim.  

    For example, Poland is spitting in Russia's face while it expects Russia to pay for its delusional "gas independence" effort thanks
    to the Stockholm Kangaroo Arbitration Court.    (The notion that some court can set prices is ludicrous, perhaps I can get
    some arbitration on the prices I pay at the grocery store.   Not bloody likely.   But somehow at the NATO state level we have
    all sorts privileges to force Russia to subsidize western parasites.)


    France and Russia share diplomatic relations since over 1000 years. There was a time the entire russian kremlin spoke french. Our nations history is not divideable
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:05 am

    By the way, Macron doesn´t have any ideas. He is only saying what his masters tell him to say. They wanted to break Russia apart and conquer it to get control over her ressources but that failed so they try to pretend that they wanted to be "partners" all the time and were just misunderstood.

    The most amusing part is that many in the EU think the solution is just a few more sanctions... I wish them good luck... it wont do what they hope it will... the result will be a solution that works best for Russia.

    For example, Poland is spitting in Russia's face while it expects Russia to pay for its delusional "gas independence" effort thanks
    to the Stockholm Kangaroo Arbitration Court. (The notion that some court can set prices is ludicrous, perhaps I can get
    some arbitration on the prices I pay at the grocery store. Not bloody likely. But somehow at the NATO state level we have
    all sorts privileges to force Russia to subsidize western parasites.)

    The final solution would be to turn off the taps and let them buy LNG from ships... anything they are not selling this year can be stored and sold next year or sometime in the future... and they are building pipelines into Asia too which should be very profitable.

    The added value of LNG means can load it on to a ship and send it anywhere around the world... it could go around a couple of times and still be cheaper than American LNG...

    Your hostility towards France appears pathological.

    How Ironic... the hostility of the EU towards Russia is pathological... but as I keep saying... the less contacts and close ties between Russia and the west the better it is for the Russians.

    Macron has quite interesting ideas.

    What ideas? His plan seems to be to use Russia against China in the hope that it will limit and reduce the growth of China without allowing Russia to grow too much.

    Obviously Russia will see the attempts to limit and restrict their growth and freedom and say no.

    We see China and USA as rivals and potential enemies.

    And right now... of all the countries that are holding Russia back it is not China that is the problem for Russia.

    I understand... Russia has all that land and resources... Micron probably wants to send some of those black African Migrants to Siberia... but of course only to help Russia and the Migrants themselves... the fact that Micron is happy to throw the US and Germany under the bus for a better economic relationship with Russia tells Russia everything they need to know.

    France and Russia share diplomatic relations since over 1000 years. There was a time the entire russian kremlin spoke french. Our nations history is not divideable

    Wasn't that long ago you were saying very bad things about Putin and Russians in general... how your tune has changed...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:49 am

    the hostility of the EU towards Russia is pathological...
    The Europeans fear Russia on a genetic level- not 1 of their invasions East has succeeded. Moreover, in the 13th century Mongols got to the border of the Holy Roman Empire with the help of Chinese technology; now  RF-PRC combine sends chills down their spines.
    https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2018/0817/Russia-takes-a-new-look-at-an-old-enemy-Genghis-Khan?cmpid=ema:mkt90day:20191201&src=journey

    Macron wants to be independent of the US but needs Russian & Chinese help; however, maintaining independence from them wouldn't be easy.


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    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:55 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    the hostility of the EU towards Russia is pathological...
    The Europeans fear Russia on a genetic level- not 1 of their invasions East has succeeded. Moreover, in the 13th century Mongols got to the border of the Holy Roman Empire with help of Chinese technology; now  RF-PRC combine sends chills down their spines. Macron wants to be independent of the US but needs Russian & Chinese help, but maintaining independence from them wouldn't be easy.

    Nobody in western Europe fears Russia.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:03 pm

    Aristide wrote:Nobody in western Europe fears Russia.
    Some in power & those behind them do. Why on Earth France joined the mil. structure of NATO after many years of absence? Why did Spain join NATO?
    Do u speak for all of them, while sitting in N Caledonia?


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    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:11 pm

    At least I offer examples of the west's anti-Russian pathology. The resident "French" troll just spews ad hominems.

    France is Russia's enemy. There can be no doubt about this. Claims by French mouthpieces about this and that are
    not worth the time of day. Actions speak louder than words. And one such action is the 24/7 anti-Russian hate
    propaganda in France like the rest of NATO. NATO, an alliance created to destroy the USSR which has shifted its
    target to Russia.

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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:11 am

    I don't understand this French hatred either. It's the closest country to Russia in Western Europe and always has been - unless you count Republican Spain but they didn't last very long.
    You can shout and cry about NATO, but NATO doesn't prevent Russia from cooperating with Hungary, Turkey, Slovakia or Greece so why should it be an impediment to relations with France.

    If Russia can gain Macron's support for efforts in Syria and recognize Damascus, that would be a big success.
    France is already mobilising Europe against the Turks in the Mediterranean.
    Russia has no interest in involving itself in the Cyprus issue on one side or the other, but Russia and France have mutual interests in cooperation in Syria now as Turkey is there too; France can gain an additional avenue of pressure on Turkey while Moscow can weaken Turkey's position there diplomatically and strengthen Damascus.

    Macron has simply been voicing what everyone in Europe knew but didn't speak aloud for obvious reasons. Russia doesn't threaten Europe. Now look at the hysteria in Merkel-land over such a statement.
    I also voice support for the eastern vector - India, China and so on. But one doesn't preclude the other. And Russia shouldn't be tied down to one power bloc. If it has common interests or ideas with France, then it can pursue them.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:32 am

    Nobody in western Europe fears Russia.

    Western politicians seem to think Putin is some super villain... killing off ex-russian spies in britain, and deciding election in europe and the us.... he is everywhere and all powerful...

    Some in power & those behind them do. Why on Earth France joined the mil. structure of NATO after many years of absence? Why did Spain join NATO?
    Do u speak for all of them, while sitting in N Caledonia?

    Of course they fear Russia and China... because both are looking for trade partners and both have technology the equal or superior to that of the west to offer the rest of the world... but the west relies on poverty in the rest of the world because that is where the stuff the west "makes" is actually made... if those countries develop and grow they might not want to make 500 dollar Nike boots at one dollar a day wages and the money machine based on third world slave labour will collapse.

    Russia and China are growing and creating real alternatives to western technology, but they are making it themselves and are willing to sell and let their customers grow without imposing laws and restrictions on them to make them deliver raw materials on the cheap like the west does...

    Of course the west fears a viable alternative choice that will lead them out of poverty...

    You can shout and cry about NATO, but NATO doesn't prevent Russia from cooperating with Hungary, Turkey, Slovakia or Greece so why should it be an impediment to relations with France.

    NATO is the mechanism the US uses to keep the EU anti Russian. The US tears up the INF treaty and the official statement from NATO is that it is up to Russia to comply or it is all their fault... The funny thing is that now that Russia has had three decades to upgrade its air defence and air surveillance it doesn't give a fuck about IRBMs any more... they still might only take 10 minutes of less to reach Moscow, but air defences in Moscow will likely shoot it down easily enough... it will be recognised for what it is and WWIII launched with no chance of a sneaky decapitation.

    If Russia can gain Macron's support for efforts in Syria and recognize Damascus, that would be a big success.

    I don't agree... the EU doesn't recognise the Crimea or South Ossetia or Abkhazia... it makes no difference to those regions... I think the cost of Microns support is worse than any benefits Russia might get in return.

    France is not doing this for Russia... France is doing this for France.

    Russia has no interest in involving itself in the Cyprus issue on one side or the other, but Russia and France have mutual interests in cooperation in Syria now as Turkey is there too; France can gain an additional avenue of pressure on Turkey while Moscow can weaken Turkey's position there diplomatically and strengthen Damascus.

    Russia has more at stake with Turkey than with France. France would never buy S-400s... or much else in terms of military equipment from Russia, and France is in no position to dictate terms regarding South Stream like Turkey is.

    Macron has simply been voicing what everyone in Europe knew but didn't speak aloud for obvious reasons. Russia doesn't threaten Europe. Now look at the hysteria in Merkel-land over such a statement.

    But he is not voicing it for the benefit of Putin or Russia, he is doing it for France... but why should Russia even listen to them when they have not only not been listening to Russia, but have been outright ignoring what Russia says and substitute their own bullshit and lies... like Russia wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and invade Europe, when in fact they would rather just be left alone. Soviet Forces withdrew from Eastern Europe in the 1990s... when they did so they certainly did not expect NATO to expand and US ground forces to move in to their places.

    I also voice support for the eastern vector - India, China and so on. But one doesn't preclude the other. And Russia shouldn't be tied down to one power bloc. If it has common interests or ideas with France, then it can pursue them.

    I am not suggesting zero trade with Europe either, but be wary because their motives are bad... they want to limit your growth and power and are happy to invade countries, undermine democracy and kill millions of people to do so... it is not an exaggeration to say dealing with the west is dealing with the devil.

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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:NATO is the mechanism the US uses to keep the EU anti Russian. The US tears up the INF treaty and the official statement from NATO is that it is up to Russia to comply or it is all their fault... The funny thing is that now that Russia has had three decades to upgrade its air defence and air surveillance it doesn't give a fuck about IRBMs any more... they still might only take 10 minutes of less to reach Moscow, but air defences in Moscow will likely shoot it down easily enough... it will be recognised for what it is and WWIII launched with no chance of a sneaky decapitation.

    NATO won't be going anywhere. But I don't see it being a vehicle for anti-Russian policy for much longer.

    US has long dominated it, used it to fulfil its goals - expansion to Russian borders, while throwing a bone to Germany and other players with the bombing of Yugoslavia, and so on

    But now you have Turkey, which is complaining - very much vocally, that NATO isn't taking its security concerns in Syria seriously enough

    And at the same time you have France, with the quiet support of several other members - saying that NATO shouldn't be focused on Russia/China, and verbally opposing Turkey, trying essentially to move it into the direction of an EU army. Now you have Corbyn, the other contender for PM post in Britain - saying that he supports Macron's ideas on NATO reformation (and has been very vocally opposed to the whole organization for many years now). It shows a wind of change.

    I don't agree... the EU doesn't recognise the Crimea or South Ossetia or Abkhazia... it makes no difference to those regions... I think the cost of Microns support is worse than any benefits Russia might get in return.

    France is not doing this for Russia... France is doing this for France.

    Syria is not a Russian region or protectorate, it's a fairly large country and it will need recognition by Europe again - and not through this whole Geneva talks clownshow; so that investment can start back in again. France can benefit with partnership with Russia in the Middle East, even if at a limited level. At the very least Moscow's Middle Eastern adventure has yielded a more stable, viable result than Washington's ever did.

    As for France doing this for France; why not - is Russia doing this for France? Or for Russia itself?
    The main thing that it's not doing it for the neo-cons in Washington and their discredited agenda - who Trump is increasingly sidelining anyhow.

    Russia has more at stake with Turkey than with France. France would never buy S-400s... or much else in terms of military equipment from Russia, and France is in no position to dictate terms regarding South Stream like Turkey is.

    Turkey is an important partner but geography, differences in world view and so on pretty much doom it to be a competitor to Russia in its current state. Russia and Turkey are both in the Middle East, and they don't have much in the way of commonality there; what with Erdogan being a Muslim Brotherhood fanatic. Plus Erdogan is a loose cannon and you can't trust him. If an opposition bloc in Turkey seizes power then there is more room for partnership; but whenever will that be?

    France on the other hand is mostly focussed on West and North Africa, some islands somewhere; it's not much engaged anywhere where it competes with Russia - and there were it is, its position shouldn't be too dissimilar to Russia's as it's probably not too interested, at least not anymore, in supporting some Jihadi terrorists or Muslim Brotherhood types.
    In Libya it's supporting Haftar, same as Moscow, and it also has good relations with Sisi in Egypt, again same as Moscow.
    It probably doesn't care too much about Eastern Europe as long as Russia doesn't start invading countries out of the blue - but Moscow has no reason to do that anyway.
    Perhaps the one possible conflict of interest might be over the Balkans; but it's a minor 'front' to be sure anyway.

    But he is not voicing it for the benefit of Putin or Russia, he is doing it for France... but why should Russia even listen to them when they have not only not been listening to Russia, but have been outright ignoring what Russia says and substitute their own bullshit and lies... like Russia wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and invade Europe, when in fact they would rather just be left alone. Soviet Forces withdrew from Eastern Europe in the 1990s... when they did so they certainly did not expect NATO to expand and US ground forces to move in to their places.

    Well no even during the Sarkozy and Hollande years, it was far from the crier for NATO expansionism and sanctions on Russia. It went along with the US to be sure, but unlike Germany was never much invested in anything beyond the Oder.
    During the Georgia war it was Sarkozy that brokered the ceasefire. And of course during the Chirac years the French and Russians (and Germans under Shchroder) joined forces to oppose the Iraq war.

    The point is that Franco-Russian co-operation can also serve as a good example for Germany, and for other Western and Central European countries; that co-operation with Moscow brings greater benefits than confrontation.

    I am not suggesting zero trade with Europe either, but be wary because their motives are bad... they want to limit your growth and power and are happy to invade countries, undermine democracy and kill millions of people to do so... it is not an exaggeration to say dealing with the west is dealing with the devil.

    I believe it is an exagerration

    One certainly has reasons to be vary of Europe, including of France and other countries. Once again, I'm not suggesting a move towards them if its conditional on lowering ties with others.
    But India, China and other countries are coming into their own. Iran has expanded across the Middle East. Turkey is trying. We're entering a multipolar world. And I won't say I neccessarily like the sound of this; it can eventually lead to a WW1 style confrontation of blocs and so on.
    But what is clear is that you don't embrace it and limit your range of partners, other more pragmatic countries will leave you behind.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:22 pm

    NATO won't be going anywhere. But I don't see it being a vehicle for anti-Russian policy for much longer.

    US has long dominated it, used it to fulfil its goals - expansion to Russian borders, while throwing a bone to Germany and other players with the bombing of Yugoslavia, and so on

    Well that is the amusing thing... America uses NATO to keep the EU opposed to Russia, but it controls it mainly because it pays for it.

    Now that they are demanding NATO members pay more they might find they are less inclined to do as they are told when they are paying more of their share they will probably feel less inclined to do as the US tells them to.

    But now you have Turkey, which is complaining - very much vocally, that NATO isn't taking its security concerns in Syria seriously enough

    Which is fair enough when you see ISIS and the kurds using weapons clearly supplied by their western allies... I mean a US company contracts a Serbian company to make weapons and ammo and then that same ammo turns up in the hands of ISIS and the Kurds but that US company no longer exists and of course that Serbian company was told the weapons were going to be sent to Albania...


    And at the same time you have France, with the quiet support of several other members - saying that NATO shouldn't be focused on Russia/China, and verbally opposing Turkey, trying essentially to move it into the direction of an EU army.

    Trump got really upset being lumped together with Russia and China as reasons the EU needed an EU army, but at the end of the day that should be no real surprise... America drags europe in to wars they don't have anything to do with... like Iraq and Afghanistan and perhaps soon Iran... it really isn't in the interests of Europe to be part of such conflicts that cost money and kill people when they would much rather be selling them stuff and buying their oil.

    The only European Army that could be effective needs a strong leader... like Napoleon, like Hitler, or dare I say it... like Stalin... and looking at Micron, Merkel, and Putin... that would mean Putin... which is amusing and ironic because for all the bullshit the west goes on about Putin being like Stalin he has had the same transformational effect, but without the deaths and disappearances and the fear that Stalin used... imagine what the Soviet Union could have been with Putin instead of Stalin...

    Now you have Corbyn, the other contender for PM post in Britain - saying that he supports Macron's ideas on NATO reformation (and has been very vocally opposed to the whole organization for many years now). It shows a wind of change.

    Most of Britain treats Corbyn worse than they treat Bojo, which is ironic because while Bojo deserves it... and more... I think Bojo is treated rather better than an idiot of his mania should get, but when Corbyn says what the Israelis are doing is not right all of a sudden he is anti semitic... which is of course bullshit.

    Corbyn will fight for the 99.9% to get back on their feet and start making money again at the expense of those 0.1%... the richest of the rich, but those 0.1% will use the media companies they own and the industry they control to keep him out of office... but of course with Brexit they are likely to leave anyway.

    Syria is not a Russian region or protectorate, it's a fairly large country and it will need recognition by Europe again

    Syria is a sovereign country that has been pissed on from high altitudes by the west and the Europeans in particular for a very long time. Most of their problems derive from choices made by the UK and France in the 1920s.

    There is the rest of the world to trade with... you seem to suggest that the west is an essential component of the world... it is not.

    and not through this whole Geneva talks clownshow; so that investment can start back in again. France can benefit with partnership with Russia in the Middle East, even if at a limited level. At the very least Moscow's Middle Eastern adventure has yielded a more stable, viable result than Washington's ever did.

    And now the west wants to swoop in and get contracts and deals and make some money... just like the oil they have been stealing from Syrian oil wells for the last decade has been pocketed by certain people who want this to continue. Peace is not in the interests of most western countries because war is so lucrative.

    The effect Moscow has had in the region has been eye opening... many countries in the region have taken note of the actions of Russia. Russia talks to all parties and negotiates and respects other parties that deserve respect. (not ISIS of course).

    It is not an accident that factions in Libya want Russian assistance there... and not just to supply weapons.

    The main thing that it's not doing it for the neo-cons in Washington and their discredited agenda - who Trump is increasingly sidelining anyhow.

    Americas use of the dollar and sanctions has only weakened its controls and leverage over Russia and China and more and more countries are looking for alternatives to current international norms which further undermines US control.

    France is jumping ship because it recognises Russia as being the more stable ship that seems to be heading in a sensible direction, while the US ship is taking on water and the last 3 or four presidents have gone with bad advice... they are being told to drill holes in the hull to let some of the water out... which just lets more water in so their response is to drill faster...

    But American voters are stupid and believe they are on the best ship in the world... soon to be the best submarine in the world... but it is pretty obvious when you are not balancing your budget and the amount you owe keeps creeping up eventually you are going to have to start paying people and literally when you print your own money some people are going to stop accepting that because it is worthless... just printed paper... they will want gold or other valuable commodities... all the richest 0.1 percent will leave... and now they will have a big powerful military and no money and demands for payment in something other than cash... odds are they will probably start a serious war... preferably against a country they owe most of their money to so when they win they can simply wipe their debt without having to pay it... so who holds a lot of US debt?

    Of course they control moodys and the other financial institutions and could simply force them to give them AAAAA++++++ status which means they have to pay 0% interest on the money they owe anyone... which makes owning US debt worthless...

    Turkey is an important partner but geography, differences in world view and so on pretty much doom it to be a competitor to Russia in its current state.

    Turkey has been thrust together with Russia and China because he has a spine and does what is right for Turkey... there is not a huge amount of things in common between Russia and Turkey but there are not a huge amount of things in common between China and Russia, India and Russia, or Turkey and the US.

    They don't have to be best buddies, but they need to follow some basic principles of decency like not murdering people in embassies like the Saudi Arabians do, and they can cooperate on many levels. Russia doesn't need to become part of the Ottoman empire and Turkey does not need to become part of the Soviet Union.

    I buy lots of odd things at a Chinese grocery store in Dunedin... the owner is Chinese... seems a nice enough guy. I wont be marrying his daughter, but I can buy things from him.

    Russia and Turkey are both in the Middle East, and they don't have much in the way of commonality there;

    Actually they do... they both want terrorists removed from Syrian territory. The americans are not helping the Kurds for Turkeys benefit or for Russia or Assads benefit. As far as Russia is concerned the Kurds and ISIS forces seemed to cooperate too often and their focus was always against Assad rather than against each other, so if ISIS is destroyed Russia is happy, but if the Kurds as a military entity are destroyed Russia really doesn't care because they are primarily anti Assad and for Russia Assad represents Syria... anything else wont have structure or order and will be Libya style chaos.

    Now Turkey cooperated with ISIS... they certainly bought oil from these people which is where they made their money, but the Turks see the Kurds as the terrorists in the region. If Russia can convince Turkey to treat the ISIS forces as terrorists... perhaps in return for Russia seeing the Kurds as terrorists then Turkey and Russia and Assad are happy... as would be Iran no doubt... the only unhappy people would be the Kurds, ISIS of course, and the Americans and Israelis... so frankly that would be the ideal outcome for everyone concerned that matters.

    what with Erdogan being a Muslim Brotherhood fanatic. Plus Erdogan is a loose cannon and you can't trust him. If an opposition bloc in Turkey seizes power then there is more room for partnership; but whenever will that be?

    Any opposition block to Erdogan will be CIA supported and anti Russian... but not likely pro Kurd so similar but different.


    France on the other hand is mostly focussed on West and North Africa, some islands somewhere;

    Its focus is remaining a colonial power hoovering up resources and plundering the poor. Russia on the other hand is interested in projects that can help those countries as well as Russia to make money and develop.

    During the Georgia war it was Sarkozy that brokered the ceasefire.

    And it was France and Europe and the west that continued to blame Russia for the conflict in the first place... even after it became clear what actually happened.

    And of course during the Chirac years the French and Russians (and Germans under Shchroder) joined forces to oppose the Iraq war.

    They verbally opposed it but did little to actually stop it.

    The point is that Franco-Russian co-operation can also serve as a good example for Germany, and for other Western and Central European countries; that co-operation with Moscow brings greater benefits than confrontation.

    You mean like the cooperation during WWII to fight Hitler that is now being rewritten, just like any Russian cooperation can be rewritten to suit any narrative needed at the time... their memories are very selective and very short.... like a gold fish...


    I believe it is an exagerration

    Really?

    Ask someone in the west about WWII and the role of the Soviet Union and Russia... they write history, and it is everyone elses fault... a non aggression pact with hitler shows that Stalin was in cahoots with Germany... but agreements signed by Chamberlain for appeasement are the opposite it seems... the Soviets fought the Germans tooth and nail like cowards, while the French bravely surrendered and the British bravely ran away... with their most powerful Royal Navy doing fuck all...

    it can eventually lead to a WW1 style confrontation of blocs and so on.

    It was power blocks that created WWI which at best should have been a small conflict over fairly quickly... certainly not the bullshit that happened and with Britain and France being total censored ensuring WWII was the inevitable consequence of them treating Germany like it was all their fault.

    WWII happened because the west didn't know how to be gratious winners and believed its own propaganda that they were good so by definition the other side must be bad/evil... of course when the Soviet Union appeared they quickly changed west germany and japan from evil bad guys to heroic new allies against the new menace... they claimed the problem was communism but managed to get right in to bed for WWII when it was useful and of course to get friendly with China during the cold war to counter the Soviet Union. Of course that showed that it really had nothing to do with communism... if they could get friendly with communist china then they could just as easily have gotten friendly with the Soviet Union too which would make more sense... but they didn't.

    But what is clear is that you don't embrace it and limit your range of partners, other more pragmatic countries will leave you behind.

    There are several myths to be broken.... the first is that the best chance for future growth and development for Russia is with closer ties with the Europeans and Americans... it is bullshit... they don't want you to grow and develop and will do everything they can to sabotage that.

    The second myth is that the people of the third world are stupid and poor and there is no point trading with them except to offer charity... the truth is that after about 4 centuries of the first world trading with the third world the third world is still the third world because the first world goes out of its way to make it so.... they are on top and want to keep it that way... but look at Russia and China.... they make their own stuff and haven't farmed out production to cheap labour in third world countries like the west has so they still have people that work in factories and earn money... in the west most of the factories are closed.

    If Russia wants to grow and develop and make its own choices in terms of morality and ethics then it needs to avoid the west... it needs to make its own path forward, it needs to develop trade ties to the rest of the world, and it can offer all those countries in Africa and Asia and central and south america a better alternative for growth and development... and you can all grow and develop together.

    The problem for the world is that the best way to make money is to have money, so it is people with lots of money that make the big money and the rest of us are just trapped working to earn it the hard way.

    I see that China now has more millionaires and billionaires than the US does... maybe their morals and ethics will be better and they wont focus on hoarding as much for themselves as they can at the expense of everyone else like western rich people seem to do.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:54 am

    ..if the Kurds as a military entity are destroyed Russia really doesn't care because they are primarily anti Assad
    AFAIK, not any more- they mended fences with the Syrian gov. & asked Assad's army to help them stop the Turks.
    OTH, the Kurds r divided into many groups/factions/clans & it's futile to unite them all together to ally with any particular side.
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    Post  Regular on Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:48 am

    Aristide wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    the hostility of the EU towards Russia is pathological...
    The Europeans fear Russia on a genetic level- not 1 of their invasions East has succeeded. Moreover, in the 13th century Mongols got to the border of the Holy Roman Empire with help of Chinese technology; now  RF-PRC combine sends chills down their spines. Macron wants to be independent of the US but needs Russian & Chinese help, but maintaining independence from them wouldn't be easy.

    Nobody in western Europe fears Russia.

    It's quite easy to understand why:

    Russia has no ideological agenda to push.
    Russia has economic interests to keep Western Europe as both clients and sellers of technologies.
    Russia doesn't have same numbers as Soviet Union did and would bog down somewhere in buffer states before they could even reach West.

    Then again, only idiots in Russia fear West as well.
    It's business as usual.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:06 am

    Maybe that's true for most W. Europeans; but Sweden & Finland of N. Europe do cooperate with NATO more & more.
    Denmark is also concerned about Russian buildup in the Arctic: http://www.russiadefence.net/t2746p375-arctic-rush#270040
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:33 am

    Then again, only idiots in Russia fear West as well.

    The west has a proven record of imposing sanctions and poverty on countries that get in its way or do not do as they are told... only an idiot would not fear the west... it is a fucking monster. It doesn't care about facts or the truth, and changes its mind on a whim... Saddam was a hero one year fighting the good fight against those evil Iranians... evil Iranians that 10 years before were led by CIA puppets and were the good guys in the middle east in the 70s BTW, but then Saddam invaded Kuwaite to help pay for his war with Iran with some Kuwaiti oil, but that risked Saudi oilfields also coming within his reach so he became enemy number one...

    How many million have died in that region because the west likes its oil supplies regular and cheap?

    There are no partnerships with the west... they dictate and you roll over and play dead or it is a visit to the vet and you wont be playing dead.

    The west didn't give a shit about Russia during the 1990s when they needed some help.... and the help they were sent was censored like Bill Browder and many others who fleeced them for billions of dollars... a century of labour building up factories and companies with pension funds and hardware... all asset stripped and sent off to western bank accounts never to be seen again... yes, the west should be feared because after all that shit they still think Russians owe them respect for saving them from communism... why don't the Russians love us... we are so nice to them... Fuck off.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:14 am

    ..but that risked Saudi oil fields also coming within his reach so he became enemy number one...
    that was the official spin the US used to justify the Desert Shield build up. Iraq could have invaded the KSA by crossing the border (formal neutral zone) to the West of Kuwait if it wanted to, besides using Scud BMs from S. Iraq against their oil facilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabian%E2%80%93Iraqi_neutral_zone

    Saddam was led to believe that he could take Kuwait w/o any problem, & he swallowed that bait, to perish at the end of the rope 12 y. later.
    but, in the words of W. Churchill, they "slaughtered the wrong pig"!

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