Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Quite a good article on it but as normal ignore the comments.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-future-ballistic-missile-submarine-concept-has-guard-drones

Better look at the thing coming out of the tube. It´s a drone, but an underwater one.   Looks like 6 fit inside a tube.

Hole wrote:


Better look at the thing coming out of the tube. It´s a drone, but an underwater one.   Looks like 6 fit inside a tube.

Ten Borey submarines have already been built or are under construction, while there is a contract for two more. I don't really see the need for an additional strategic submarine project, unless the Russians have decided that there are no more restrictions on nuclear weapons..
Although, maybe this is some new idea that would replace Borey-K, that is, a project that would be a carrier platform for cruise and anti-ship missiles.

The number of new strategic submarines is sufficient; 5 operational, one launched and in the testing phase, another 4 under construction and two more planned for construction. Thats 12.. The question is what the Russians are planning for the successor of the 971 Schchuka-B and 945A Kondor projects, that is, whether they will be further improved 885M submarines or whether some new submarine will appear, proposed 545A project. As for the 949A Antey submarines, everything is clear there and they will be replaced with 885M submarines.

think some details matter on it https://en.topwar.ru/200663-anpa-surrogat-v-novyj-variant-mnogoobeschajuschej-koncepcii.html

Over the past years, the Rubin Central Design Bureau has been actively engaged in the topic of autonomous uninhabited underwater vehicles (AUVs) and has already developed a number of similar projects. At the recent Army-2022 forum, the bureau presented a new model of this class - the Surrogat-V apparatus. It was created on the basis of an already well-known project, but due to a number of innovations, it was possible to expand the functions of the complex and the range of its tasks.

Autonomous slave

At the Army-2022 forum last week, the Rubin Central Design Bureau of MT showed materials on a number of its developments, both already known and completely new. In particular, a model of a new AUV called "Surrogate-B" or Surrogate-W was demonstrated. The letter "B" in the name means "slave" or "wingman" and reflects the main feature of the project.

The new project "Surrogat-V" provides for the construction of a heavy multifunctional AUV, designed to be placed on submarines and able to work together with them. The developer organization said that such a device would take on some of the tasks of full-fledged submarines. Its use will allow you to effectively carry out various activities without risk to the carrier ship.

AUVs are proposed to be used for reconnaissance using active search tools, for communication, etc. With such work, the device can unmask itself and give out its location, but the submarine, which plays the role of "leader", will remain safe.

The Surogat-V apparatus looks like a small submarine. It has a streamlined body with several protruding elements, planes and rudders. In the bow and on most of the sides there are hydroacoustic instruments under a characteristic strip of skin. In the stern there is an annular water jet channel.



The intended appearance of the first "Surrogate" with a towed antenna

Some characteristics are disclosed. The displacement of the product remained at the level of the previous project - 40 tons. Due to the introduction of new solutions and components, the functions of the device are expanding. In addition, new lithium-ion batteries increase the cruising range to 800 miles. A new power plant based on electrochemical generators is being developed. The AUV will be recharged both on board the carrier and using bottom charging stations.

The model of the Surrogat-V ANPA was shown on the same stand with the model of the promising Arktur nuclear submarine. The latter can be the carrier of various underwater vehicles, including heavy class products. For their placement in the aft part of the hull, special compartments are provided.

The prospects for the Surrogat-B project have not yet been specified. How soon he will reach the construction and testing of experimental equipment is unknown. The Ministry of Defense also does not comment on this topic. However, models of the new technology were presented at the stand of the High Command of the Navy, which indicates the presence of interest in such developments. Apparently, the details of the work will be announced as certain events are held.

New modification

It should be noted that the current project of the Surrogat-V AUV was not developed from scratch. It was based on the project of the same name, the existence of which became known a few years ago. So, in 2016-17. it became known that the Central Design Bureau of MT "Rubin" on its own initiative launched a project with the code "Surrogate". Its goal was to create a special underwater vehicle for conducting exercises fleet.

According to the information of that time, the Surrogate product will be an unmanned submarine with a length of 17 m and a displacement of 40 tons. An all-electric power plant based on lithium-ion batteries was created for it. The propeller motor was supposed to give a cruising speed of 5 knots, which made it possible to obtain a range of up to 600 miles. Maximum speed - 24 knots with range restrictions.

ANPA "Surrogate-V". New version of a promising concept

An autonomous control system with a number of basic functions was created for the Surrogate. She had to control the movement and ensure the passage of a given route, as well as apply a target load of one type or another.

The device was intended to be used as a training target for practicing anti-submarine defense tasks. In this regard, it was proposed to install the necessary devices on it, as well as built-in and towed antenna devices. With their help, the Surrogate, justifying its name, had to imitate the physical fields of a full-size submarine. The possibility of simulating ships of various types, domestic and foreign, was mentioned.

The research work "Surrogate" was completed by mid-2020, and the documentation on it was transferred to the Ministry of Defense. The military had to study the initiative development and draw conclusions. Upon receipt of a positive opinion, the project could be developed and in the future reach full operation.

A year later, in September 2021, the Rubin Central Design Bureau of MT announced the continuation of work on the Surrogate topic. This time, the ability of AUVs to imitate submarines was mentioned as a way to deceive the enemy. It has been argued that recent technological advances already make it possible to mislead ship and aviation detection complexes. In the future, the same effect will be obtained for stationary systems.

Function expansion

The original project of the training AUV "Surrogate" was developed, and this process led to the emergence of a new interesting development. Unlike its predecessor, "Surrogate-B" is intended to work incl. in a combat situation. At the same time, both projects are of great interest - both at the level of basic ideas and due to the solutions found.



The concept of a special simulator capable of participating in PLO exercises as a conditional target is very interesting and has obvious advantages. At present, the role of a mock enemy is assigned to the submarines of the Navy and their crews. For all its advantages, this approach has some disadvantages. The main one is the fundamental impossibility of a full-fledged imitation of foreign submarines by domestic technology.

ANPA "Surrogate", in turn, is simpler and cheaper than combatant submarines. Organization of exercises with its application is much easier. At the same time, it can carry any suitable equipment and simulate the physical fields of various underwater objects, primarily submarines of a potential enemy. Exercises of this kind will be much more useful for PLO forces.

In the new project "Surrogat-B" it is proposed to use the same AUV capabilities not in a training, but in a real environment. Such a device should imitate not the enemy, but our submarine - and mislead foreign forces. Such a substitution will reduce the probability of detecting a carrier ship and drastically reduce the risks for it.

Two submersibles with similar functions, but different roles, can be maximally unified in terms of design and means of operation. At present, this greatly simplifies the development of two promising complexes, and in the future it will have a positive effect on the production and operation of equipment in the Navy. In addition, the customer may generally abandon the "Surrogate" of the first model. The new "Surrogate-V" has all the necessary functions, and it can also be used in exercises.

promising direction

Thus, TsKB MT "Rubin" continues to develop the direction of autonomous uninhabited underwater vehicles and now presents another development of this kind. The Surrogat-B project clearly shows what existing technologies and technical solutions can do. It also demonstrates the potential of an interesting concept proposed several years ago.

Central Design Bureau MT "Rubin" presented a new AUV project and disclosed some information about it. Now it's up to the Department of Defense. It should study the proposed concept and determine its value to the navy. If a positive decision is made, "Surrogat-B" will be further developed and, possibly, even come to testing and subsequent operation.

If you put the scale of this sub into perspective the size of that pea shooter is more like a S-350/400.
Most - if not all Russian subs do have some MANPADS on board as well.

I did appreciate scale... that is why I said Hermes... its tubes are 3.5m long.

Maybe it´s used to launch some sort of drone.

If it takes up an entire launch tube I would hope it could launch more than one of something.

Hermes is interesting because in the surface to surface model it is supposed to have a range of about 100km, and there are models with an air to air capability too so it could be used against air and sea targets...

The volume available in a launch tube should allow multiple drones or missiles to be stored and used.

Better look at the thing coming out of the tube. It´s a drone, but an underwater one. Very Happy Looks like 6 fit inside a tube.

A torpedo like drone... interesting.

If they are stacked in the tube vertically the arm that extends out of the launch tube must rotate 90 degrees to retract into the tube with the current drone which means once launched it can rotate and retract and perhaps an internal rotary launcher of drones might hold 6 or 8 or 12 more drones ready to be extended out and rotated for launch.

This is how I assumed a Hermes missile launcher might work as well and I don't see any reason why this drone could not be replaced by Hermes type missile tubes for use against air or surface targets.

Ten Borey submarines have already been built or are under construction, while there is a contract for two more. I don't really see the need for an additional strategic submarine project, unless the Russians have decided that there are no more restrictions on nuclear weapons.

The way the US cheats with its agreements I can't see them expecting honest negotiations moving forward on anything any more... they still have a few old Delta IIIs modified as mother ships for underwater sneaky beaky stuff, so there is scope for more subs to replace them, and I also agree with your later comment that cruise missile carrying subs would be interesting... especially if they are 12,000km range hypersonic airbreathing scramjet powered cruise missiles, or nuclear powered cruise missiles of practically unlimited range and high speed low altitude flight capability...

The model of the Surrogat-V ANPA was shown on the same stand with the model of the promising Arktur nuclear submarine. The latter can be the carrier of various underwater vehicles, including heavy class products. For their placement in the aft part of the hull, special compartments are provided.

So these are not SSBNs, they are replacements for the India class subs... and the converted Delta IIIs used in the mothership role.

They are SSBN´s. Intended to replace Borej, which means construction could start around 2035, if the project is accepted by the customer. But thanks to new tech they will be more versatile. The Surrogates are there for self-defence and the smaller ones launched from one of the missile tubes will be used for recon.

I would say one is an SSBN, but the smaller vessel is an S-70 type wingman type equivalent drone that seems to carry a variety of smaller drones in its SLBM launch tubes and internal weapon bays.

I am surprised it does not have a flat deck surface for surfacing and operating flying drones near enemy coastlines...

If it can carry drones in its launch tubes then it could carry all sorts of other stuff like SAMs or even hypersonic theatre land attack weapons... the SSBN would obviously carry SLBMs, so this smaller wingman type drone could carry drones and defence weapons and other drones including decoy drones that pretend to be the SSBN and distract and divert the attention of the enemy, but then other drones can be launched and even vertical launch anti sub weapons etc etc.

Such a large drone wingman type vessel could be used with current generation subs too, so they don't have to wait till 2035... they could perhaps already have a smaller less capable one in development now... even just a very noisy target drone that attracts torpedoes and covers the noise of quieter systems operating in the same area...

At the International Military-Technical Forum (IMTF) "ARMY-2022" in Kubinka, the Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering (TsKB MT) "Rubin" for the first time presented the concept of the Arctic strategic missile submarine (SSBN) "Arktur", this is the bureau's vision of the future of missile submarines strategic cruisers of the 21st century. A model of a strategic submarine designed for use in arctic conditions was exhibited at the stand of the main command of the Russian Navy. The main weapon of the missile carrier is located in the middle part of the hull - a missile compartment with 12 ballistic missiles. Probably launchers for cruise missiles are located in the wheelhouse fence. Four torpedo tubes can be observed in the bow of the hull.

Источник:

http://bastion-karpenko.ru/arctur-rpksn-rubin/

for more follow links:


http://bastion-opk.ru/submarine-arctur-army-2022/
https://rg.ru/2022/08/19/strategicheskij-atomnyj-podvodnyj-krejser-5-go-pokoleniia-pokazali-na-forume-armiia-2022.html







interesting that they added Arctic adjective in the name. Does it mean sail is going to be an ice-breaker here?

just copy pasting gunships news sources article, since some of that information is worth sharing here.

"It will be a multi-purpose submarine capable of diving to a depth of about a kilometer. It must carry on board strategic missiles and anti-ship missiles. Of course, torpedo weapons. It will have its own air defense system. The peculiarity is that in a special compartment on its board there is an autonomous unmanned underwater vehicle. He must ensure the protection of the main submarine during combat service and conduct reconnaissance of the underwater situation.

The submarine will be equipped with the most advanced hydroacoustics systems. The engine of a promising boat is radically different from those that are on modern submarines. It will become almost silent and more effective in all respects. Therefore, the tail part of the boat has unusual contours from the usual point of view.

The strategic submarine of the future is initially designed for service under the ice shell of the Arctic. According to the designers, it will be impossible for the enemy to determine its location there. At the same time, our submarine cruiser will hear everything that happens within a radius of hundreds, and maybe thousands of kilometers from it. Accordingly, identify any threat in advance and, if necessary, neutralize it.

It is also interesting that the nuclear submarine of the future is conceived in a double version. Naturally, in combat - first of all. But on its basis it is possible to build multifunctional civilian deep-sea research submarines."

please put this submarine in service ASAP its too cool to be true. I dont want this sub to be just a project concept like the new destroyers with S-500 systems

Naval projects take decades of planning and preparation... these things take time... just like new destroyers and cruisers...

Edit: The bottom photo on post 690 confirms that there are 6 drones in the tube with presumably the ability to put them back after they return (perhaps for a recharge).

I find interesting that there's no traditional rudders nor stern planes. It's stern looks more like tail of Su-57. And no propeller either.
The question MHD or pump jets?

GarryB wrote:Naval projects take decades of planning and preparation... these things take time... just like new destroyers and cruisers...

In Russia destroyers are actually cruisers right now :d BTW now I can see fleet is going to receive more smaller ships with big punches.
With longer ranges needed to protect trade hopefully destroyers will return to drawing boards.

thegopnik wrote:I dont want this sub to be just a project concept like the new destroyers with S-500 systems

New destroyers are not just "project concepts", and they will certainly be realised in metal, but the RuN needs to walk before they can run. The need to get their frigates built and achieve decent numbers of hulls on water before proceeding onto destroyers, let alone cruisers. Naval focus has been on submarines and that won't change soon IMHO.

subs usually have a 500 meter depth and this one is one kilometer, and according to random user online the deeper you go the faster you can go without noisy cavitation

I suspect the reason it can go 1km deep is because it is unmanned, so it can increase its internal pressure as it gets deeper under water, so it is not under enormous pressure as it gets deeper.

Russia has not got bundles of money to just throw away, they need to do this methodically and step by step to minimise risk and assure a quality product.

The upgraded gorshkovs will be their new standard frigate, if it works well and they will use what they have learned to create Destroyer sized vessels with more missiles and better endurance.

There will always be a balance of needs from endurance and comfort for the crew as well as weapon capacity... smaller lighter shorter ranged ships don't need amazing endurance because normally they wont operate far from base for long periods so low weapon numbers are not important because they can always pop back to base for a reload.

For a much larger longer range ship carrying sufficient weapons for a long duration mission is important, but obviously being able to be rearmed and reloaded at sea is also a useful feature too.

GarryB wrote:I suspect the reason it can go 1km deep is because it is unmanned, so it can increase its internal pressure as it gets deeper under water, so it is not under enormous pressure as it gets deeper.

thegopnik was referring to the sub not drone it carries. So Arctur is going to dive up to 1000m

thegopnik was referring to the sub not drone it carries. So Arctur is going to dive up to 1000m

Only very small subs can go that deep or deeper, if it can go to 1km deep with a crew it will be like sphere based crew areas isolated from the rest of the ship, with most things fully automated and isolated...

Human divers can't breathe normal air at 1000m depths and it takes hours for them to surface, or days in a decompression chamber...

Either there is a command centre sphere they can all retreat to and operate the sub at normal atmospheres, or the sub is designed to operate automatically remotely... like most modern armoured vehicles and aircraft are these days.

This model has only 12 silos and 4 torpedo tubes, considering that start will likely fall through that seems to be a terrible idea, it would be better to go back to submarines with as many missiles as possible.

ALAMO wrote:For what particular reason?

Indeed, why even 12 with MIRVed wareheads? Targets, 1 UK, 1 EU, 1 west US, 1 central US, 1 east US, 1 spare.

Because there will be many thousands of targets and no treaties limiting warhead count.

Operating 1 large submarine with 24 silos is far cheaper than operating 2 submarines with only 12 silos and with no treaties they can operate as many 24+ silo submarines as they want.

ALAMO wrote:That would only mean the interception of 24 missile carrier is double that easy as the 12

If the Russian had the resources to make and operate as many submarines as desired and were still going to be limited to a small warhead count by treaty, then many lesser submarines would be better, but unfortunately Russia lacks infinite resources and therefore more powerful submarines are more economical.

As we could witness in the las months Russia has much more ressources then the combined west.

Not necessary.
There is a constant rumor that 885M is already capable of going down 800m.
The diving parameter of 971 revealed put the number at 600m.
What it really means, is the increasing parameters of new marine grade steel types they are using for construction.
The Soviet submarine grade steel was much superior to the US one for decades, and this gap is only increasing if we consider the progress of the Russian shipbuilding and the reports about the falsification of tests for the USN.

I don't doubt the quality of their metals, but at 1,000m... that is enormous pressure and strength of the materials is only half the problem... if you look at the Losharik externally it looks like a conventional mini sub but inside it is made up of spheres which allow it to operate at enormous depths with the insides at normal air pressures for the crew.

We already know the Soviets highly automated many things including loading torpedoes, and we also know they love their escape capsule concept for the crew to climb aboard a sort of mini capsule to escape a damaged sub.

How much of a stretch would it be to have a rescue/command capsule that has automated control of the subs functions that can detach in the case of emergencies and work as a rescue capsule, but at extreme depths also act as a command module where the crew can go to... it is a sphere so it is strong enough for the enormous pressure, while the rest of the sub is not pressurised and increases pressure with the outside water... there wont be anyone there so it does not matter... the crew will all be in the command/rescue component at normal pressures so no chances of getting the bends, and in an emergency they are all already in the rescue capsule.

Even with strong materials it will need to be spherical inside.

This model has only 12 silos and 4 torpedo tubes, considering that start will likely fall through that seems to be a terrible idea, it would be better to go back to submarines with as many missiles as possible.

It has always been easier to ramp up weapon numbers by adding MIRV warheads than extra missiles... besides we are on the verge of nuclear powered cruise missiles... can you guess which is harder to deal with... a mach 20 semi ballistic missile with a range of 8 thousand kms, or a mach 3 cruise missile that never climbs higher in altitude than 25m?

I will give you a hint... it is the low flying weapon... and if you can ramp that speed up to mach 4 or mach 5 you can probably do damage just by flying over targets... a mach 3 American nuclear powered cruise missile was cancelled in the 1950s... it was estimated to be able to kill people on the ground and damage buildings just by flying past at mach 3 at low altitude... The programme was cancelled because it was considered crazy... now I think we need crazy to wake those deep state in the US.

Operating 1 large submarine with 24 silos is far cheaper than operating 2 submarines with only 12 silos and with no treaties they can operate as many 24+ silo submarines as they want.

Operating 16 submarines instead of 8 means better distribution of your launch positions.

Even with MIRV missiles the actual missile has a flight path from the launch platform to the most distant primary target... even if you have 20 warheads in that missile they can't hit targets in the opposite direction from which they are launched. Each warhead can be released in flight and the distance away from the flight path of the missile they can hit their own targets is limited... you can't just sit a sub in the arctic ocean and say missile number one has 6 warheads... warhead one for London, warhead 2 for Paris, warhead 3 for Berlin, warhead 4 for Brussels, warhead 5 for a city in Poland and warhead 6 for a second city in the UK.

The launch position will determine what targets can be hit and what general path the missile will follow... what you don't do is launch missile one with 6 warheads all hitting London... because if that missile fails in flight then London might not get hit.

Another factor is that one warhead might go off early and damage the other warheads so they don't explode in the right place and the right time... when they all come from the same missile they will be too close together and might be interceptible all at once.

What normally happens is that warhead one on missiles 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, and 15 might be aimed at London... the second warhead on each of those missiles might be going for Paris, and the third warhead for Brussels and something else etc etc.

With the US backing out of treaties left right and centre who knows what weapons the Russians will be able to put in orbit soon...

If the Russian had the resources to make and operate as many submarines as desired and were still going to be limited to a small warhead count by treaty, then many lesser submarines would be better, but unfortunately Russia lacks infinite resources and therefore more powerful submarines are more economical.

You do have a point, but generally a smaller lighter sub with 12 or 16 launch tubes is going to be much smaller and lighter and cheaper than a super sub able to carry 24 missiles... remember their biggest so far carried 20 SLBMs and they were magnificent but also not cheap.

The future might be fully multipurpose vessels with 20,000km range hypersonic cruise missiles that are slower than SLBMs but also a fraction of the size and weight because they scoop their oxygen to burn their fuel on their way to the target instead of carrying it as fuel oxidiser.

An 80 ton SLBM is 95% fuel and it needs enormous super powerful rocket motors to lift 80 tons... just going to scramjets you reduce the fuel weight from maybe 73 tons to maybe 20 tons, so you have a 25 ton missile.... but then a 25 ton missile does not need such enormous rocket motors to get it airborne and the weight savings reduce the amount of fuel needed... needless to say a turbojet powered cruise missile is 2.5 tons with a flight range of 5,000km... a scramjet burns fuel faster but the missile moves faster too... so maybe an 8 ton missile that can fly 10,000km at mach 11 at 60km altitude...

And then you have nuclear powered scramjets that can operate for months...

As we could witness in the las months Russia has much more ressources then the combined west.

And every reason to develop new dual use technologies that help to make them safer and the west more scared.