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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

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    franco

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  franco on Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:46 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Can anyone type a quick list of RuN nuclear attack subs and number of them per class (just class and number, not individual ships) that are in service now and those that are undergoing overhaul?

    We have Sierras, Akulas, Oscars and Yasens but how many of each exactly right now?

    I am getting lost in those spreadsheets in Russian....

    Top figure is total, check individual fleets to see those submarines operational.

    http://russianships.info/eng/today/
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:51 am

    Minus first two Pacific fleet submarines - Podolsk and Sv. Georgiy Pobedonosets, as they were decomissioned last month.
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    franco

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  franco on Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:28 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Minus first two Pacific fleet submarines - Podolsk and Sv. Georgiy Pobedonosets, as they were decomissioned last month.

    Don't believe they have been decommissioned yet, but the tender to dismantle them after they are, was put out.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:25 pm

    Possible appearance of the 5th gen. "Husky" class sub....apparently the source of the pic is the Malachite Design Bureau



    Arrow https://warhead.su/2018/04/09/vozmozhnyy-oblik-novoy-podlodki?utm_source=warfiles.ru
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:04 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Possible appearance of the 5th gen. "Husky" class sub....apparently the source of the pic is the Malachite Design Bureau



    Arrow https://warhead.su/2018/04/09/vozmozhnyy-oblik-novoy-podlodki?utm_source=warfiles.ru

    That's a big sub ! Are you sur ? It looks so more advanced than yasen. And doesn't look cheaper.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:44 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:Possible appearance of the 5th gen. "Husky" class sub....apparently the source of the pic is the Malachite Design Bureau

    https://warhead.su/system/images/000/098/900/content/11159788892e6f391980b707997bc139e4776765.jpg?1523279391

    Arrow https://warhead.su/2018/04/09/vozmozhnyy-oblik-novoy-podlodki?utm_source=warfiles.ru

    That's a big sub ! Are you sur ? It looks so more advanced than yasen. And doesn't look cheaper.


    Bigger doesn't necessarily mean more expensive (not too much at least) and size makes sense if they want to use it as basis for SSBN variant down the road. It doesn't look too much larger than Yasen.

    That front part is interesting, are those VLS cells? If yes this could be SSGN variant while they still plan to have stock SSN version so those frontal VLS cells would be common on all versions as basic armament in addition to torpedoes.

    But then again it could just be concept art so who knows...
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:30 pm

    From the link...

    What do we see?

    In the picture, obvious " missile" variant " Husky" - carrier complexes cruise missiles "Caliber", "Onyx" and perspective "Zircon". The boat is equipped with vertical launchers at the bow and missile compartment in the middle part of the body. The bow is used, apparently, " boat" modification with a modified 8 missile universal launcher.

    In the middle of the hull can be seen eight more caps, under which are the same launchers. If we assume their commonality with launchers modernized " Ash" ( 885M project), then each of them can be placed four " Onyx" or five " Calibers". The plants in the bow of the boat, most likely, can be placed only "Calibers"

    Thus, depending on the load, the boat can carry 40-48 cruise missiles of various types.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:18 pm

    Nice!

    Weird thing in the bow doesn't really resemble VLS. Current trends in Russian submarine building favour big sonars in the bow and torpedos/missiles in the middle of the boat anyway.

    So all in all it's just 8 VLSs in the middle of a hull or half of Yasen's capacity, which is consistent with official releases, signaling size much under Yasen's.

    And that pump jet propulsor looks stealthy, too. Can't wait too see her get wet in 2-3 years!
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:22 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Nice!

    Weird thing in the bow doesn't really resemble VLS. Current trends in Russian submarine building favour big sonars in the bow and torpedos/missiles in the middle of the boat anyway.

    So all in all it's just 8 VLSs in the middle of a hull or half of Yasen's capacity, which is consistent with official releases, signaling size much under Yasen's.
    ..........

    Wrong

    It's 8 missiles in the front and 32 in the middle, each of those launchers holds 4 missiles same as Yasen.

    So that's 40 total
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:24 pm

    It looks like it is a hybrid SSBN/SSGN concept with Bulavas at the back and cruise missiles up front.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:21 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:It looks like it is a hybrid SSBN/SSGN concept with Bulavas at the back and cruise missiles up front.

    I dunno about that, it would be getting worst of both types.

    8 Bulavas and 8 cruise missiles, that's really anemic no matter how you put it especially for ship of this size and price

    I think that frontal missile package is standard self defense kit for all types

    This here is SSGN variant, SSN omits central segment while SSBN gets larger central​ segment for ballistics missiles​
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:25 pm

    8 Bulavas and 8 cruise missiles, that's really anemic no matter how you put it especially for ship of this size and price

    A smaller cheaper vessel, and you would have 16 of them instead of 8 Boreis...

    I think that would be great in terms of SSBNs, but no so good for SSGNs... though I suspect with Zircon and future even faster longer ranged missiles they wont need hundreds of missiles to hit land and sea targets.

    Perhaps they could build 16 smaller cheaper huskies for the SSBN role and convert the 8 Boreis into arsenal ships with 200 UKSK launch tubes each... Smile

    It seems cruise missiles are very useful tools for a variety of purposes and having tubes that can launch land attack cruise missiles, as well as hypersonic anti ship missiles and supersonic anti sub torpedo delivery rockets the needs of the Russian navy are changing...


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:58 pm

    The forward part of the sub is quite interesting, for the missile carrier the forward missile compartment doesn't make sense.


    The only reason why they should have it if they build independently the forward/rear part of the submarine, testing them independently, and marry them together in finished state with the middle section.

    Like as the first three bories used up the akulas nose section.

    And the number of missiles can change without any trouble.
    The middle section of the submarine can be as long as they went, with only minor impact on the sub performance.

    Hole

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Hole on Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:16 am

    Didn´t they want to make the sub modular?
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:57 am

    Why do you think it isn't?

    Baseline model is SSGN with mid section UKSK tubes.

    Remove the mid section UKSK tubes and you have a SSN.

    Replace the mid section UKSK tubes with SLBMs and you have a SSBN.

    You think "modular" means it needs a big split down the middle with big yellow text saying "вставьте ракетную стойку здесь"  (Insert Missile Rack Here)?
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:16 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Why do you think it isn't?

    Baseline model is SSGN with mid section UKSK tubes.

    Remove the mid section UKSK tubes and you have a SSN.

    Replace the mid section UKSK tubes with SLBMs and you have a SSBN.

    You think "modular" means it needs a big split down the middle with big yellow text saying "вставьте ракетную стойку здесь"  (Insert Missile Rack Here)?

    That's what could actually happen. SSN without the lunchers at mid section but they keep the front one 16 lunchers which is the basic configuration for russian big ships. The size would be reduce so it would be smaller than any previous soviet sub which would be cheaper to operate and easier and faster to produce.

    I expect them to be fir submarine forces what Gordhkov is suppose to be for surface forces and Yassen would be the bigger ship but in lower number.

    They have to replace in the long term akulas, Victors and Sierras. So they will probably order 20 of them in all.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Hole on Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:50 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Why do you think it isn't?

    Baseline model is SSGN with mid section UKSK tubes.

    Remove the mid section UKSK tubes and you have a SSN.

    Replace the mid section UKSK tubes with SLBMs and you have a SSBN.

    You think "modular" means it needs a big split down the middle with big yellow text saying "вставьте ракетную стойку здесь"  (Insert Missile Rack Here)?

    That was a rhetorical question. Look at the posts above mine: "It has Missiles." "Why has it Missiles?" "Why so few Missiles?"
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:13 am

    Hole wrote:Didn´t they want to make the sub modular?

    I think the submarine with 20% of missiles in the nose, and 80% of missiles in the middle section doesn't make sense.


    It is cheaper to put the missiles into the middle section if it is there anyway.

    Two explanation for this:
    1. the artist was lazy ( considering the conning tower has edges it can be an explanation )
    2. They will build the nose section independently, and they will marry it to random middle sections .
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:00 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Hole wrote:Didn´t they want to make the sub modular?

    I think the submarine with 20% of missiles in the nose, and 80% of missiles in the middle section doesn't make sense.


    It is cheaper to put the missiles into the middle section if it is there anyway.

    Two explanation for this:
    1. the artist was lazy ( considering the conning tower has edges it can be an explanation )
    2. They will build the nose section independently, and they will marry it to random middle sections .


    Torpedoes are no longer sufficient self-defense weapon for submarines, missiles are necessary hence frontal launchers

    Looks like all variants will have 8 vertically launched missiles as part of basic weapons package

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Hole on Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:18 am

    You mean, the middle section with more missiles will be optional.
    Maybe a special SSGN Version. Or this are SLBM´s.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:47 am

    Hole wrote:You mean, the middle section with more missiles will be optional.
    Maybe a special SSGN Version. Or this are SLBM´s.

    This one is clearly SSGN, middle section is dead giveaway, stock Yasen style launchers.

    And yes, it's middle section that will be different between variants, front and rear will be identical

    This way they could buld different submarine types by simply selecting different middle section: VLS one like here for SSGN, large ballistics missile launchers for SSBN, mini-sub bank for spy version or just not install middle section at all if they want stock SSN like old Akula

    Each version will have good basic weapon package thanks to both torpedo tubes and VLS cells in the front
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:05 pm

    I think the layout is quite sensible.... if you have a look at the front setup... remember the torpedos and torpedo tubes are now in the middle of the vessel, so in the nose you would have a large round sonar array in the nose and then behind that you would have flank arrays on each side... which leaves the middle empty... putting two UKSK launchers there makes a lot of sense because except during launch a UKSK launch bin wont make any noise to effect the arrays.

    With 16 missiles up front you effectively have an SSN... not enough to call it an SSGN but able to be equipped with a variety of missiles to allow a variety of missions that makes it flexible and capable.

    With a rear section that can either take a single row of SSBNs... ie 8... in other words half the payload of a current Borei then you can have an SSBN that has space either side of the SLBMs for torpedos and torpedo tubes to make it a normal sub.... or you could have more UKSK launch bins there to make it a viable SSGN with the potential for a large missile attack on any particular target.... plus torpedo tubes either side.

    That offers the same design for three different weapon setups.

    The SSN could be shorter with the torpedo tubes on the outside and where the SSBN and the SSGN have vertical launch tubes down the middle the SSN can store its torpedos and missiles for launching through the torpedo tubes...


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:20 pm

    Dare I suggest that the central module could also accept a specialized bay for storage and launch of "Status 6" or "Kanyon" for whatever the intercontinental robot torpedo uber-nuke is called?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:07 am

    Dare I suggest that the central module could also accept a specialized bay for storage and launch of "Status 6" or "Kanyon" for whatever the intercontinental robot torpedo uber-nuke is called?

    Exactly... and it could also be used for special modules for underwater "research"... and a range of other purposes... including divers and special forces delivery and extraction... hell it could be used to sail into dangerous waters and release and recover UAVs that are vertical takeoff... all of sudden a UAV appears and then collects data and maybe even hangs around to record an attack to determine if a follow up attack is needed and then leaves in an unexpected direction and then disappears.

    UAVs might be expendable but they are not cheap so being able to recover them makes them more valuable... but flying them from Russia would take time and be noticed... so hidden platforms moving bases in international waters is useful.

    I do however suspect that if this Kanyon system is intercontinental then there is no huge advantage to taking it away from Russia for launch... though I suppose that would eliminate NATOs chances of intercepting it no matter which path it takes from Russia...


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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:24 am

    With a rear section that can either take a single row of SSBNs... ie 8... in other words half the payload of a current Borei then you can have an SSBN that has space either side of the SLBMs for torpedos and torpedo tubes to make it a normal sub.... or you could have more UKSK launch bins there to make it a viable SSGN with the potential for a large missile attack on any particular target.... plus torpedo tubes either side.

    Or they could be made for 8 Bulava that can also accomodate with VLS specialy made to fit inside if you want to use cruise missiles. You know normal bay is for bulava but the missile could be taken off and replaced by a luncher with cruise missile very quickly at the port.

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