Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

After looking in details, Khabarovsk-class is already ordered to 4 units and it is said to share Borei design.

So it already happened, they used Borei for a special ship design.

For the SSGN role, it depends what they do with the Oscar 2. If they all get 72 uksk instead of P-700 then they won't need a ssgn borei. They will also have 10-12 Yasen.

They will need to build SSN instead which will also have UKSK cells.

Arrow wrote:Ulyanovsk proj 09853 probably based on 955A. Another unit after Khabarovsk 09851.

Ulyanovsk is a project 885M sub.

Arrow wrote:I know there is something wrong with the naming.  Both the 885M project is currently under construction and 09853 they are called Ulyanovsk. Perhaps 09853 will be named differently.

I'd rather believe this than an anonymous source.

Arrow wrote:I know there is something wrong with the naming. Both the 885M project is currently under construction and 09853 they are called Ulyanovsk. Perhaps 09853 will be named differently.

There's nothing wrong with naming, there is only one Ulyanovsk submarine and it's 885M

What you are quoting here is usual journalistic fuckup that nobody bothered to correct

The table is a translation from the one made by navy korabel guy, Alexander Shishkin

Arrow wrote:Where did the information come from that one of the project 885M Ulyanovsk submarine was canceled. This is nonsense. This is due to a misunderstanding of the same name for another Poseidon drone carrier.

Some moron journalist said something retarded and everyone reported it as fact

Ulyanovsk is Yasen-class, can we please move on from this shit now?

Well, i am the new one here and hallo to everyone. My english is not the best but i'll give my best.
We allready know that 2 strategic 955A submarines are ordered for construction in Sevmash in 2023 so my guess is that this year could be a reserved for construction of 885M project or that first sections for 1 or 2 submarines of that project project could be laid down in Sevmash this year.

New nuclear diving babies allready in construction;
1. Year 2020; Voronezh and Vladivostok laid down (project 885M),
2. Year 2021; Knyaz Potemkin and Dmitry Donskoy (project 955A).
Only those 4 submarines above are in the early stages of construction in Sevmash.
3. Year 2022; we will see,
4. Year 2023; two 955A submarines will be laid down.

Next submarines will most likely be launched this year;
1. Year 2022; 3 submarines or
* Project 885M Yasen-M; K-564 Arkhangelsk,
* Project 955A Borey-A; Imperator Aleksandr III
* Project 09851 , Khabarovsk; probably most secretive submarine in construction .
To be honest i have an opinion that even Perm submarine (885M) could be launched by the end of this year, but we will see. Sevmash is becoming empty


In construction;
1. 885M project; 3 submarines (my hope is that Ulyanovsk submarine will be constructed as submarine of 885M project), Voronezh and Vladivostok. Ulyanovsk will be launched by the end of 2024 if not by the end of 2023, i am sure about that.
2. 955A poject; 3 submarines or Pozharskiy, Donskoy, Potyomkin. Pozharskiy will be launced by the end of 2023, most certanly.
And that leaves a space for allready ordered 2 new 955A project submarines in 2023 and for the new (i really hope so) Yasen beasts. OK, there is no news in open sources about 09851 project submarines except that there could be 3 or 4 of those submarines in total in the future.


Near future from 2025 onwards; 545A class SSN and finishing construction of 885M and 955A submarines. From 2035; only aircraft carriers and finishing construction of 545A submarines.

I hope they continue building the 885M longer than what is in the current plan. They should replace all the older attack submarines and SSGNs with it.
These ships are multirole and have much more modern sensors and reduced noise levels. They have, what, like three different attack submarine classes in operation (ignoring subvariants). The Victor III, the Sierra, the Akula. They have the Oscar SSGN. The Oscar is way larger but because the missiles it carries are huge Granit missiles it can only carry 24 of them. The Yasen can carry 32 Oniks missiles. That disparity in the fleet increases logistics overhead and makes crew training more difficult. They should replace all four classes with the Yasen in my opinion. So I hope they do not stop production at just 10 ships and switch to the Husky. That would be a waste of time when the shipyard already knows how to produce this ship well and it blows anything else out of the water.

I don't think that those proposed 545A class will be smaller than 971 or 945A class SSN and I also think that Russians will built that submarine with no less than 50 weapons in total, in VLS and in torpedo section. If they decide to built 545A class that will be a submarine with full displacement no less than 10 000 tons. Don't forget that Virginia class has 37 torpedoes and missiles in total. Yes, Yasen is a beast but I think that 11 or 12 submarines of 885 project will be built in total, for twoo submarines divisions with 6 submarines in each division, one for Northern and one for Pacific fleet. And than comes 545A class with no less than 12 submarines, 6 for Northern and 6 for Pacific fleet. Who knows, maybe Northern fleet will get additional division with 6 more submarines. There is no chance that Northern fleet will lost its crown as the most powerfull Russian fleet. And yes, we must not forget 09851 project Khabarovsk.

Husky/Laika was suggested as a solution for increasing submarine fleet back when construction of Yasens was extremely slow and it was a smaller boat with compromises (like when Seawolf got cut in favor of Virginias)

The thig is that construction of Yasens is no longer slow, it's in fact really fast and there are no reasons to stop building them now

The Amur yard could produce some Laikas. Just a suggestion.

PapaDragon wrote:
Husky/Laika was suggested as a solution for increasing submarine fleet back when construction of Yasens was extremely slow and it was a smaller boat with compromises (like when Seawolf got cut in favor of Virginias)

The thig is that construction of Yasens is no longer slow, it's in fact really fast and there are no reasons to stop building them now

Well, its not fast enough either. Yes, we have twoo new 885M submarines commissioned in last year and those that are already in construction will be built much faster, but there are not enough of those submarines laid down - simply not enough. Russia needs at least no less than 24 multipurpose nuclear submarines in 4 divisions with 6 submarines in each division - 2 for Pacific and at least 2 for Northern fleet.
1. Most newest 971 class submarines are "Samara" (1995) and "Vepr" (1995) and both of those submarines will be 40 years old in 2035, with the exception of "Gepard" (2001) and "Nerpa" (2009), if this submarine stays in Russia as it is rumoured that she will stay.
2. Project 949A; My opinion is that all 949A submarines from Northern fleet will be decomissioned by the end of this decade and only 3 will still be in service in Pacific fleet; "Irkutsk" (1988), "Chelyabinsk" (1990) and probably "Tomsk" (1996).
3. Project 945A; titanium hulls, everything is possible here, because thay say in Russia that those submarines could serve twice as long opposed to submarines with steel hulls - but than thay need to go through deep modernisation.
Thay need to speed up construction process..I am sure that Russians do know what they are doing but i am impatient.

Podlodka77 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Husky/Laika was suggested as a solution for increasing submarine fleet back when construction of Yasens was extremely slow and it was a smaller boat with compromises (like when Seawolf got cut in favor of Virginias)

The thig is that construction of Yasens is no longer slow, it's in fact really fast and there are no reasons to stop building them now

Well, its not fast enough either. Yes, we have twoo new 885M submarines commissioned in last year and those that are already in construction will be built much faster, but there are not enough of those submarines laid down - simply not enough. Russia needs at least no less than 24 multipurpose nuclear submarines in 4 divisions with 6 submarines in each division - 2 for Pacific and at least 2 for Northern fleet.
1. Most newest 971 class submarines are "Samara" (1995) and "Vepr" (1995) and both of those submarines will be 40 years old in 2035, with the exception of "Gepard" (2001) and "Nerpa" (2009), if this submarine stays in Russia as it is rumoured that she will stay.
2. Project 949A; My opinion is that all 949A submarines from Northern fleet will be decomissioned by the end of this decade and only 3 will still be in service in Pacific fleet; "Irkutsk" (1988), "Chelyabinsk" (1990) and probably "Tomsk" (1996).
3. Project 945A; titanium hulls, everything is possible here, because thay say in Russia that those submarines could serve twice as long opposed to submarines with steel hulls - but than thay need to go through deep modernisation.
Thay need to speed up construction process..I am sure that Russians do know what they are doing but i am impatient.

it is so obvious that you are the known chinese troller, which i have banned 20 accounts of him, since you insist constantly on construction time and speed

Nope, i am not. Не, ја нисам кинески трол и ја сам Србин... (no, i am not a chinese troll and i am a Serbian)...
Dont be rude, brother, because we Serbs dont like that.

ТАSS

On the way to the fifth generation: why the Russian submarine fleet was digitized and turned into blocks ?
Dmitry Litovkin - on the development of nuclear submarines on the example of "Ash" (Yasen) and "Borei"

At the end of 2021, Sevmash, the Severodvinsk machine-building enterprise, handed over two nuclear submarines to military sailors: a Project 885M Yasen-M multi-purpose submarine under the name Novosibirsk and a Project 995A Borei-A strategic cruiser Prince Oleg. The originality of this event is that after the delivery of the previous nuclear submarine "Kazan" to the Navy, only six months have passed, and two more missile carriers are being taken out of the boathouse of the world's largest shipbuilding enterprise.
This has not happened in the history of our Navy since Soviet times. In the near future, both submarines will make the transition to the Pacific Fleet. Their appearance will seriously enhance its combat potential, the country's resources to deter potential external aggression.

Pies in the projection

On "Sevmash" they liked to joke sadly that "they learned how to lay submarines - now it remains to learn how to hand them over." The ceremony regarding the first process is simple: in a huge workshop, with a gathering of workers and Moscow commissars, a metal beam or section of the future ship is placed to the sounds of an orchestra and solemn speeches, a special copper plate is screwed to it. That is how on December 21, 1993, the construction of the first "Ash" and "Borea" began. Then, as invited guests, and in fact lobbyists, they invited Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov and the "chief privatizer" Anatoly Chubais.

Delivery of the project is more difficult and can take years. So, the first ship of the 885th project - "Severodvinsk" - was transferred to the fleet only in 2009. At the same time, sea trials of the strategic cruiser of the 955th project, Yuri Dolgoruky, began. Such a long time for the construction of boats was primarily associated with the general crisis of the military-industrial complex.The country was literally unable to finance the creation of new weapons systems - "Severodvinsk" and "Yuri Dolgoruky", as they say, were molded from what was, for example, from parts of unfinished submarines of other projects that remained at Sevmash. At the same time, the first "Ash" became a real catalog of defense industry products - in the hope of future orders from the state, numerous developers of weapons systems laid down in its project all the available and only being developed products.

The first "Ash" and "Borey" became to some extent an analogy of the Lego constructor, both new production technologies and equipment were worked out on them. This explains why only from the third nuclear submarine - "Novosibirsk" - and the fifth strategic cruiser - "Prince Oleg" - the submarines began to be called serial (built according to a single approved documentation, with standard equipment and weapons systems). Thus, the groundwork was nevertheless made - the Navy received a new generation of submarines and was able to understand in practice what is good and what is bad in them.

During the ceremony of handing over the ships to sailors at the end of 2021, timed to coincide with the final board of the Ministry of Defense, Supreme Commander-in-Chief, President Vladimir Putin mentioned that plans for the further construction of the nuclear submarine fleet involve the creation of six more multi-purpose 885M nuclear submarines and five project 955A missile carriers.
At the same event, the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov, emphasized: "The fleet is satisfied with these ships. It is at the request of the fleet, based on the operation of the previous series, that Borey-A is being made. It is quieter, it has a lot of positive characteristics. Everything that was laid down in it, is confirmed in the sea. I think that the next ships will be even better: there is a progressive movement forward. I fully subscribe to the words said by the director of "Sevmash" Mikhail Budnichenko, namely that for more than twenty years there has not been such mass laying, and construction, and acceptance of ships. Our country has not received so many missile submarines since 1991."

According to Budnichenko, in 2021 Sevmash not only handed over to the customer three nuclear submarines - Kazan, Knyaz Oleg, Novosibirsk, but also began state tests on the Belgorod nuclear submarine, laid down two new strategic cruisers Dmitry Donskoy" and "Prince Potemkin", brought the newest multi-purpose boat "Krasnoyarsk" and the nuclear submarine "Generalissimo Suvorov" out of the shed. In fact, this exceeds the performance of the two leading American shipyards Electric Boat in Groton and Northrop Grumman Shipbuilding in Newport News. Together they produce two submarines annually. And the British analogue of "Sevmash" in Barrow has built only five nuclear-powered submarines since the beginning of the century.

QUIETER THAN WATER

As part of the naval nuclear forces of the Russian Federation, ships of project 955 are changing nuclear boats of project 667. Currently, from a whole series of nuclear-powered ships with different indices from the letter "A" to "M" and names - "Navaga", "Andromeda", "Pear", " Squid" and "Dolphin" - only the last two remained. In the middle of the 2000s, they underwent a deep modernization and, until recently, formed the basis of our naval nuclear deterrence forces.They are equipped with new hydroacoustic stations, reactor nuclear safety systems, low-noise propellers and new Sineva or Liner strategic missile systems. In the event of a conflict from the Barents Sea, these nuclear-powered ships are capable of launching 320 high-yield nuclear warheads into North America.

Project 955 is the next page in the development of the nuclear submarine fleet. Borei are the first Russian nuclear submarines, where the propulsion is carried out not by propellers, but by means of a single-shaft water-jet propulsion system with high propulsion characteristics.The ships have special retractable thrusters such as Azipod; using a hinged mechanism, they can rotate around a vertical or horizontal axis by 360 degrees (which allows the submarine to move in any direction: bow, stern or side, turn around in one place and at the same time remain completely invisible, since Azipod propellers are driven by electricity) . The boats are five times less noisy than the ships of previous projects.

The former commander of the nuclear submarine missile cruiser "Alexander Nevsky", Captain 1st Rank Vasily Tankovid, told TASS earlier that in 2015 he made a 42-day Arctic inter-fleet transition under the ice of the Arctic, having passed five seas and two oceans from the Northern Fleet to the Pacific Fleet. "The United States failed to detect and follow us. They learned about our appearance in the waters of the Pacific Ocean only when the nuclear missile carrier arrived at a permanent base in Kamchatka in Vilyuchinsk," the officer noted.
I will also add that boats of this class are equipped with the latest hydroacoustic stations of the Irtysh-Amphora type. This is an automated digital complex that combines the capabilities of noise direction finding, echo direction finding, target classification and communication. It combines "small acoustic" stations into a single information space, designed to measure ice thickness, sound speed, search for sea mines, torpedoes, polynyas and leads. Experts say that in terms of range, the complex is superior to a similar system on the latest American boats of the Virginia type.
And to top it all off, the Borea deployed the latest Bulava intercontinental ballistic missiles, which carry up to six individually targetable nuclear warheads. The launch range of these missiles allows our submariners to hit targets located in the other hemisphere of the Earth, both from combat patrol areas and directly from their bases, as they say - from the pier.

SUBMARINE INTERCEPTOR

According to unconfirmed reports, one "Borey" costs the budget 23 billion rubles, and "Ash" - in excess of 200 billion (no wonder that the boats of the 885 project are among the most secret in the Russian fleet). Western analysts often compare the Yasen in terms of combat capabilities with American submarines of the Seawolf type (of which there are only three - for financial reasons, further construction was abandoned). One such nuclear-powered ship cost the budget $4.4 billion. For comparison: the last Nimitz-class nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, together with the air group, cost no more than $5 billion, and one nuclear submarine of the previous Los Angeles-class project costs only $741 million.

Unlike the latest fourth-generation strategic submarines of the fourth generation of the 955 Borey-class project (the new technical stuffing of which is no more than 40%), the boats of the 885 project have all systems, components and mechanisms completely new, never used anywhere before . According to shipbuilding industry experts, this is high-tech equipment that has no analogues in the Soviet and Russian military shipbuilding.

To illustrate this, an example is given that the 885 project uses a compromise mixed design system - the light hull "covers" only part of the more wear-resistant base in the bow of the submarine to reduce noise. The ship's hull is made of high-strength low-magnetic steel, which allows the Yasen to dive to a depth of more than 600 m - this makes it practically inaccessible to all types of modern anti-submarine weapons (conventional nuclear submarines sink to 400 m). Nuclear submarines of the 885th project carry ammunition from 30 homing and remote-controlled torpedoes, sea mines, as well as long-range missiles "Caliber", supersonic anti-ship "Onyx" and, in the future, hypersonic "Zircon".
The boat is equipped with six 650- and 533-mm torpedo tubes, through which the crew can fire all types of modern torpedoes, carry out minelaying and even use unmanned underwater vehicles. (Perhaps in the near future these will be new products "Physicist", "Predator" and the modernized Shkval torpedo rocket. True, so far these are only speculations - neither the Ministry of Defense, nor the design bureau that designed the "Ash" (St. Petersburg Autonomous District " SPMBM "Malachite"), did not declare anything similar about the 885th project).

However, last year one very important detail was revealed by the military. According to the press service of the Northern Fleet, in July 2021, in the waters of the Barents and Norwegian Seas, fourth-generation nuclear submarines ("Borea" and "Ash") at a depth of 500 m conducted "special exercises to test systems and weapons." She also emphasized that "deep-sea tests are carried out at depths that are the limit for most modern submarines." For a general understanding: ships of all other generations (Russian or American, British, French and other fleets) can use their weapons when submerged no more than 50 m.

LEGOLAND

Thus, I come to the conclusion that the "Boreas" and "Ash" will determine the combat readiness of our fleet for several decades. In addition, from the experience of their design, construction and commissioning, the military and industry have already drawn certain conclusions. Not so long ago, the press service of Sevmash reported that the company was preparing to introduce a block-modular technology for the construction of nuclear submarines - this is a method of assembling ships from large sections, already saturated with the necessary equipment and weapons (previously, everything was mounted during the docking of individual submarine blocks). It is assumed that the use of block-modular technology will reduce labor intensity, as well as the construction time of boats.

The other day it also became known that for the first time in Russia a digital model of a nuclear submarine was created. The project was implemented within the framework of a single design and production space created by Sevmash and four design bureaus: Northern Design Bureau, Rubin, Malachite and Almaz. In the process, technologies of reverse design, volumetric laser scanning were used, optoelectronic measurement instruments were introduced. New technologies have made it possible to avoid costly and labor-intensive rework.

With all this, the design of ships of the next, fifth, generation has already begun. True, very little is known about them, but this is enough to suggest that in the future shipbuilders will "bake boats like pies." So, it has already been decided that the bow and stern rudders, stabilizers, wheelhouse fencing, even propellers and shaft lines will be made from composite materials.The use of composites in the construction of new ships makes it possible to achieve a significant increase in combat performance, increase reliability, and reduce operating costs, because these materials do not require painting and do not corrode. In addition, structures of this type can be manufactured during one technological process, which reduces the complexity of manufacturing parts by 30–40%.

Within the framework of all these conceptual approaches, the design and preparation of production of new submarines is currently underway. The military say that these will be not only modular, but also highly unified ships (for example, in the bow and stern compartments). Which, in turn, will allow literally on the slipway, depending on the needs of the sailors, to turn a strategic missile cruiser into an attack submarine and vice versa - you just need to replace the modular weapon bay.

https://tass.ru/opinions/13418707

Arrow wrote:I don't believe there is such a disproportion in cost between 955A and 885M.  

Agreed, its total nonsense.  23B (300M USD) for a Borei and 200B+ (2.6B USD) for a Yasen???  The usual suspects insist on lumping the total R&D costs and retooling by sub-suppliers into the cost of the lead boat. Its the 5th columnists standard practice to artificially inflate the cost and thereby sustain their attacks on the project, and its very disappointing to read fool journos repeating this seditious rubbish.