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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

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    George1

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:28 am

    Project 667BDR (Delta III) SSBNs - K-223 Podolsk, K-433 Sv. Georgiy Pobedonosets, removed from service
    This leaves only one operational Project 667BDR/Delta III submarine - Ryazan, which returned from overhaul in February 2017.

    http://russianforces.org/blog/2018/03/two_project_667bdr_submarines.shtml


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:54 am

    George1 wrote:Project 667BDR (Delta III) SSBNs - K-223 Podolsk, K-433 Sv. Georgiy Pobedonosets, removed from service
    This leaves only one operational Project 667BDR/Delta III submarine - Ryazan, which returned from overhaul in February 2017.

    http://russianforces.org/blog/2018/03/two_project_667bdr_submarines.shtml

    Removed for overhaul or removed permanently?
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:20 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Removed for overhaul or removed permanently?

    A few days ago Rosatom put out a request for tenders for "unloading spent nuclear fuel from decommissioned submarines of the Project 667BDR class, Nos. 395 and 397" (h/t @7FBTK). These submarines are K-223 Podolsk and K-433 Svyatoy Georgiy Pobedonosets respectively. I take it these two submarines have been withdrawn from service.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:16 am

    So there are two Delta IIIs in service... the one SSBN you mention after its overhaul and the one that was modified into a mothership for mini subs and other undersea "research"...


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    George1

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:59 pm

    Naval composition and construction of the Naval Strategic Nuclear Forces of the Russian Navy as of 01.04.2018



    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/186982.html


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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:04 pm

    Can someone translate what's going on with Tula and Bryansk?
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:52 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Can someone translate what's going on with Tula and Bryansk?

    Τula completed overhaul in late December and its in phase of entering back in service. Bryansk entered overhaul after Tula


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:49 am


    Man, I want them to order another Yasen SSGN so hard.

    Seriously what's the holdup? They need it and I know they are good for it...

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:22 am

    Yasen are usually laid down in July (5 of 6 of the 855Ms have been) , I assume because its the Northern summer? I guess we'll find out soon-ish if a 7th hull is in the works...
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:16 am

    Chances for another Yasen are insignificant, because seven were initially planned:

    They are the most expensive sumarines made in the recent history, even more than Seawolf class. Even US navy couldn't afford 3,5 bn submarines, let alone Russia. Thus, they're getting ready for the first boat of new, cheaper Husky class, which should be laid down in 2020/2021

    This summer, Malakhit will present the design.
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:30 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Chances for another Yasen are insignificant, because seven were initially planned:

    They are the most expensive sumarines made in the recent history, even more than Seawolf class. Even US navy couldn't afford 3,5 bn submarines, let alone Russia. Thus, they're getting ready for the first boat of new, cheaper Husky class, which should be laid down in 2020/2021

    This summer, Malakhit will present the design.

    They planned more than seven

    And while they are expensive they are also worth every cent

    Waiting for Husky this long would be pretty dumb, it's 3 years away at earliest and that without taking into account mandatory delays that always occur, they should use those 3 years instead of wasting time

    They finally warmed up production of Yasen class so they should take advantage of it while they still can, saving several hundred million on a product like SSGN is pretty insignificant given what you get in the end
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:31 pm

    Get serious, the $3.5B "cost" of Kazan incorrectly includes all the R&D, design documentation and revised tooling for the entire 885M series ... the costs should be spread out over the full program to appreciate the true costs, not all lumped onto the lead vessel of the series.

    Someone is playing dirty politics with this agitprop BS.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:49 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Get serious, the $3.5B "cost" of Kazan incorrectly includes all the R&D, design documentation and revised tooling for the entire 885M series ... the costs should be spread out over the full program to appreciate the true costs, not all lumped onto the lead vessel of the series.

    Someone is playing dirty politics with this agitprop BS.

    It's not BS, the minister of defence at the time had concerns about the growing prices of this project and it had to do with corruption. The project shouldn't be that much expensive now. It has the design of Akula and the VLS are build in big numbers for all the ships of Russian forces so if they keep with Yasen the cost could be greatly reduced to a very good price.

    Husky is supposed to be less capable than Yasen. It is actually the basis for a SSN ( cheaper and smaller and less capable than Yasen) and a SSGN which we don't know the number of missiles carried which is the principal capability of a SSGN.

    The price for those two Husky variant should be great too and not that much diferent from Yasen so in my opinion they will make the same mistake as geting Sovs and Udaloys instead of 1 better destroyer. So instead of having 20 Yasen they could end up with 10 SSN husky and 10 SSGN husky.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:07 pm


    Going with anything less capable than Yasen is flat out stupidity and criminal negligence

    USA, China and Europe are not sitting on their asses (first two at least), there is no going back in this game
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:09 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Going with anything less capable than Yasen is flat out stupidity and criminal negligence

    USA, China and Europe are not sitting on their asses (first two at least), there is no going back in this game

    Moreover they are building handfull of them not hundreds like during cold war. They should get the best.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:29 pm

    Good point Gazza, big part of Yasen costs are one-time investment. Russia had to overcome big technological gap between the last Akula in 1996 and Severodvinsk in 2013. The only thing that remained the same is hull shape. Cutting edge Yasen technology will be pillar for all future 4th and 5th generation submarines in Russia. I.e., expect less delays and smaller cost with future classes.

    However, now the Russians want to cash tears and blood of developing Yasen in new cheaper class. Make no mistake, money matters a lot in present Russia. We are in the middle of arms race with Russian defense budget far behind US and Chinese and yet they are forced to decrease it even further due to low oil prices.

    So good quality/price ratio is of outmost importance, in other words 20 Huskies > 10 Yasens. That's why the US ceased to produce Seawolfs. Huskies will be less capable in quantity of weapons aboard, but not quality. Several small boats can be deployed more efficiently to cover larger ares, which is for SSN more important than for SSBN or SSGN.

    A naval historian once claimed, that Typhoon class megalomania is one of the reasons for break up of Soviet union. While Soviet engineers are brilliant and often ahead of their US counterparts with less investment, they can certainly learn from them something about cost rationality. And fortunately, they obviously have. Smile
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:18 pm

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Going with anything less capable than Yasen is flat out stupidity and criminal negligence

    USA, China and Europe are not sitting on their asses (first two at least), there is no going back in this game

    Moreover they are building handfull of them not hundreds like during cold war. They should get the best.


    Hundreds? Please lay the crack pipe down.

    And Gazza is right, the number is pure misinformation. Some minister's concerns do not make this sort of misinformation
    valid.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:14 pm


    Making Husky SSN without VLS tubes is acceptable if they have option to launch missiles through torpedo tubes, provided they leave enough storage space in the front to carry sufficient number of missiles

    But making compromises on sonar quality and noise levels is unacceptable
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:28 pm

    Haha don't worry, Huskies are expected to be even quiter. Russians know what are they doing, that's why they're no. 1 submarine force in the world since Khurscev.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:35 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Haha don't worry, Huskies are expected to be even quiter. Russians know what are they doing, that's why they're no. 1 submarine force in the world since Khurscev.

    Not really, that would still be USN, even if you ignore quality they definitely got the numbers

    Yasen and Borei are first classes to match or exceed US subs' features

    I am not saying some Soviet ones weren't up for task but facts are facts
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:01 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:Haha don't worry, Huskies are expected to be even quiter. Russians know what are they doing, that's why they're no. 1 submarine force in the world since Khurscev.

    Not really, that would still be USN, even if you ignore quality they definitely got the numbers

    Yasen and Borei are first classes to match or exceed US subs' features

    I am not saying some Soviet ones weren't up for task but facts are facts

    Virginia have also VLS for tomahawks if I'm not wrong and they are very capable subs. And they replace their los angoles with them much faster than russia replace its soviets subs with yasen.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:05 pm

    Oh boy, what do you do when you don't watch american movies?

    Facts: Soviets had better and larger submarine force. Russians have better and larger submarine force.

    In the peak in 1957, Soviets had 375 submarines. They had by far the largest submarine fleet ever formed. Today the numbers are the same in both countries. Wikipedia states that both have 10-20 SSBNs and 60 SSNs + SSGNs. The difference is that Russians have also reserve sizable fleet.

    Do you want to talk about quality? Who constructed the largest submarine? What about the fastest? Or the deepest diving? You guessed the answer. Russians use multiple hull designs, their submarines are more hydrodynamic and safer, they have escape pads, they can land on seabed, they are more comfoortable due to pool and sauna. They area more automatized and require smaller crew. They are better armed. Their reactors are liquid metal cooled, instead of water.

    Oh, I know what do you mean. They are noisier. So what? You can't detect no modern nuclear submarine outside of 1 km radius, so the differences don't really matter anymore. The real difference is non-acoustic stealth. Russians can detect US submarines also using hydrodynamic sensors, detecting heat, electricity, magnetism, radiation exhausts and turbulences from enemy submarines. While all that's a taboo in the US.
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:07 pm

    Isos wrote:............
    Virginia have also VLS for tomahawks if I'm not wrong and they are very capable subs. And they replace their los angoles with them much faster than russia replace its soviets subs with yasen.

    Correct, current plan is to go with 3 new Virginias per year, that's why RuN can't dick around with delays and gaps in construction
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:51 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Oh boy, what do you do when you don't watch american movies?

    Facts: Soviets had better and larger submarine force. Russians have better and larger submarine force.

    In the peak in 1957, Soviets had 375 submarines. They had by far the largest submarine fleet ever formed. Today the numbers are the same in both countries. Wikipedia states that both have 10-20 SSBNs and 60 SSNs + SSGNs. The difference is that Russians have also reserve sizable fleet.

    Do you want to talk about quality? Who constructed the largest submarine? What about the fastest? Or the deepest diving? You guessed the answer. Russians use multiple hull designs, their submarines are more hydrodynamic and safer, they have escape pads, they can land on seabed, they are more comfoortable due to pool and sauna. They area more automatized and require smaller crew. They are better armed. Their reactors are liquid metal cooled, instead of water.

    Oh, I know what do you mean. They are noisier. So what? You can't detect no modern nuclear submarine outside of 1 km radius, so the differences don't really matter anymore. The real difference is non-acoustic stealth. Russians can detect US submarines also using hydrodynamic sensors, detecting heat, electricity, magnetism, radiation exhausts and turbulences from enemy submarines. While all that's a taboo in the US.

    We are in 2018 not in 1957. There is no reserve fleet, just old ships waiting for repairs.

    They are not particulary safer check Kursk sub and larger doesn't mean better.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:36 am

    They are not particulary safer check Kursk sub and larger doesn't mean better.

    If the entire torpedo load had exploded in any western sub it would have been in tiny pieces on the sea floor...

    The only reason it sank was because it was an internal explosion.

    [quote]They are not particulary safer check Kursk sub and larger doesn't mean better.

    Making Husky SSN without VLS tubes is acceptable if they have option to launch missiles through torpedo tubes, provided they leave enough storage space in the front to carry sufficient number of missiles

    Two points... first of all VLS tubes will be present because they are always ready to fire... making them more useful, and second no space up front for missiles or torpedoes as that is where the large sonar arrays are... the new Russian subs have mid positioned torpedo tubes...


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