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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

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    max steel
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  max steel on Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:11 pm

    Russia develops new submarine stealth technology

    The innovative technology developed by the St. Petersburg-based Krylov State Research Center (KGNTS) will significantly improve stealth characteristics of Russian submarines against sonar detecting sets, chief of the KGNTS hull strength department Valery Shaposhnikov told TASS on Wednesday on the first day of the 7th International Maritime Defence Show (IMDS-2015).

    “We have developed the corresponding technology and frameworks for submarine equipment and made them from composite materials,” Shaposhnikov said. According to the scientist, the innovations are currently undergoing tests and “to date, we have considerably advanced.”

    “Our innovations make submarines undetectable by underwater detection devices,” he said. The enemy’s sonar will not be able to get a reflected hydro-acoustic signal from the submarine as the composite material is very acoustically transparent .

    Sounds Interesting . so russian subs stealth tech is moving ahead of usa's or still trailing ? Suspect
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:42 am

    Russia's Cutting Edge Submarine Fleet to Receive 'Aircraft Carrier Killer'

    Russia plans to expand its nascent high-end submarine fleet with two new fifth generation nuclear-powered watercraft, known only as an "aircraft carrier killer" and an "underwater interceptor" at the moment.

    Both submarines are currently under development.

    The "aircraft carrier killer" equipped with cruise missiles will be used for defeating coastal and surface targets, specifically aircraft carriers, the head of Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation's state defense order department Anatoly Shlemov told Lenta.ru last week.

    The "underwater interceptor" will be tasked with protecting groups of ballistic missile carrying subs and fighting against enemy submarines.
    Both submarines will be based on the same class but different in armaments and purposes.

    The project run by the Malakhit marine engineering design bureau is part of a large-scale $350 billion military modernization program that Russia is implementing. The program is scheduled to be completed by 2020.

    Earlier in June, the commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Viktor Chirkov, confirmed that Russia's Sevmash shipbuilding company was constructing a fifth-generation nuclear-powered submarine.

    "We need low-noise, fast-maneuvering submarines with the highest level of stealthiness and equipped with powerful weapons," he said.

    The Russian Navy currently has 60 submarines, about 10 of which are nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines, and more than 30 are multipurpose nuclear submarines, with the rest being diesel and special purpose vessels.

    By 2020, the Russian Navy is expected to operate a total of eight state-of-the-art Borei-class submarines and seven Yasen-class nuclear-powered attack submarines.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150707/1024313247.html#ixzz3fCGhMvdr


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:01 pm

    New test system for submarine sounds

    Powerful sonar capable of “hearing” fourth generation nuclear submarines lurking in the deep will undergo trials at Russia’s Northern Fleet before the end of this year.

    The transmitter/receiver unit of the Batareya (Battery) sonar will be lowered to around 300 meters into the water 30 kilometers from the White Sea coast to pick up submarine sounds and send the date up via a fiber optic cable, said Sergei Tsygankov, one of the new sonar’s designers. “We went for exactly this method of data transmission because not a single Western country now knows how to pick up information traveling through an underwater fiber optic cable,” Sergei added.

    Another thing that makes the new sonar so special is that it can single out submarine noise from that of marine creatures, waves, stones, etc.. “Modern submarines are often more silent than the natural soundscape. Still, the Americans prefer to “listen in” during a dead calm, while the Batareya sonar will do the job under any condition,” Sergei Tsygankov emphasized.

    Rather than pick up the sounds made by “enemy” subs, the Batareya was designed to test the sound signature of Russia’s own submarines. “This new sonar will give our submarine builders a chance to single out the noisier elements of their craft to make a submarine as quite as possible,” Sergei Tsygankov said
    .

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150707/1024315790.html#ixzz3fCb5285r
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:23 pm

    George1 wrote:
    The "aircraft carrier killer" equipped with cruise missiles will be used for defeating coastal and surface targets, specifically aircraft carriers, the head of Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation's state defense order department Anatoly Shlemov told Lenta.ru last week.

    The "underwater interceptor" will be tasked with protecting groups of ballistic missile carrying subs and fighting against enemy submarines.
    Both submarines will be based on the same class but different in armaments and purposes.

    so they work on a lighter project than Yasen class


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:05 pm

    Found SmoothieX2 after a long time , He now runs a blog , He is ex Russian Navy and has good knowledge on Russian Submarine , So you can ask any questions you have in the blog and I have requested him to join RMF

    http://smoothiex12.blogspot.in/2015/07/russias-navy-day.html#comment-2174771999

    Check comment section for some questions answered
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    max steel
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  max steel on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:55 pm


    Russia inevitably will come (back) to global naval Sea Denial force (highly modified, of course) as USSR was during Gorshkov tenure.

    Austin wrote:Found SmoothieX2 after a long time , He now runs a blog , He is ex Russian Navy and has good knowledge on Russian Submarine , So you can ask any questions you have in the blog and I have requested him to join RMF

    http://smoothiex12.blogspot.in/2015/07/russias-navy-day.html#comment-2174771999

    Check comment section for some questions answered


    I had a brief conversation with this guy on National interest article related to usa navy.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:44 am

    Nice Video on Typhoon SSBN

    Secret Russian Sub Mission Invisible


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:46 am

    In the video the Submarine Commander says , Typhoon is a very silent SSBN and most silent in the world but AFAIK even in Russian/Soviet navy the Delta 4 was more silent then typhoon.

    The commander also says NATO submarine stand out at the mouth of the sea when the Russian SSBN comes out they tail it , How do the Russian Sub manage to evade it if a SSN starts to tail from the start ?
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:02 pm

    Austin wrote:In the video the Submarine Commander says , Typhoon is a very silent SSBN and most silent in the world but AFAIK even in Russian/Soviet navy the Delta 4 was more silent then typhoon.

    The commander also says NATO submarine stand out at the mouth of the sea when the Russian SSBN comes out they tail it , How do the Russian Sub manage to evade it if a SSN starts to tail from the start ?

    Both claims are total rubbish. Think about the NATO claim and how ludicrous it is. Does NATO know the detailed schedule of Russian
    submarine operations. And Russia supposedly has no means of detection of NATO subs near its bases? Yeah, right.

    The Typhoon is an overly huge monstrosity that would be noisier than other Soviet models simply due to its size. Fixing the screw cavitation
    problem does not fix the resonant cavity aspect of submarines. Larger hulls also deform more and this has an acoustic signature as well. And
    of course having two screws is noisier than having one.
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:12 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Austin wrote:In the video the Submarine Commander says , Typhoon is a very silent SSBN and most silent in the world but AFAIK even in Russian/Soviet navy the Delta 4 was more silent then typhoon.

    The commander also says NATO submarine stand out at the mouth of the sea when the Russian SSBN comes out they tail it , How do the Russian Sub manage to evade it if a SSN starts to tail from the start ?

    Both claims are total rubbish.   Think about the NATO claim and how ludicrous it is.    Does NATO know the detailed schedule of Russian
    submarine operations.    And Russia supposedly has no means of detection of NATO subs near its bases?   Yeah, right.

    The Typhoon is an overly huge monstrosity that would be noisier than other Soviet models simply due to its size.   Fixing the screw cavitation
    problem does not fix the resonant cavity aspect of submarines.   Larger hulls also deform more and this has an acoustic signature as well.   And
    of course having two screws is noisier than having one.

    On the other hand, the Typhoon has a pair of pressure hulls within an overall secondary hull, so has a significant capacity for acoustic-deadening technologies to mask the transmitted sounds from internal machinery and crew activities. Given that the outer hull is not a pressure-bearing structure, I presume that the space between the hulls is pressure balanced so it wouldn't tend to deform, and therefore wouldn't generate noise. Can't say much about hydrodynamic noise signature, but they were well streamlined boats so i can't imagine they generate much more noise than a more "conventional" SSBN hullform.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:47 pm


    Both claims are total rubbish.   Think about the NATO claim and how ludicrous it is.    Does NATO know the detailed schedule of Russian
    submarine operations.    And Russia supposedly has no means of detection of NATO subs near its bases?   Yeah, right.

    I think NATO employs intel vessel and its not unkown fact that SSN track or atleast try to track SSBN and russian captain says that so.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:49 pm

    http://manglermuldoon.blogspot.in/2013/12/chinas-anti-access-strategy-submarine.html

    To provide a point of reference, the following acoustic signatures are from "Chinese Evaluations of the U.S. Navy Submarine Force" and "CHINA’S FUTURE NUCLEAR SUBMARINE FORCE"

    Ocean background noise - 90 decibels
    Seawolf-class - 95 decibels
    Virginia-class - 95 decibels
    636 Kilo class - 105 decibels
    Akula-class - 110 decibels
    Type 093 - 110 decibels
    Type 094 - 120 decibels

    Even Russian sources put Akula at 110db , SL discrete frequencies in 5-200 Hz spectrum
    (dB relative to 1 Pa at 1m)

    http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  max steel on Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:36 pm

    [quote="Austin
    I think NATO employs intel vessel and its not unkown fact that SSN track or atleast try to track SSBN and russian captain says that so.[/quote]


    Trying to track and keeping track are two different words .

    [quote="Austin"]

    http://manglermuldoon.blogspot.in/2013/12/chinas-anti-access-strategy-submarine.html

    To provide a point of reference, the following acoustic signatures are from "Chinese Evaluations of the U.S. Navy Submarine Force" and "CHINA’S FUTURE NUCLEAR SUBMARINE FORCE"

    Ocean background noise - 90 decibels
    Seawolf-class - 95 decibels
    Virginia-class - 95 decibels
    636 Kilo class - 105 decibels
    Akula-class - 110 decibels
    Type 093 - 110 decibels
    Type 094 - 120 decibels



    what are his credentials ?

    From blog

    Matt : The views expressed on American Innovation are entirely my own and do not represent anyone else.



    Last edited by max steel on Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:37 am

    Austin wrote:http://manglermuldoon.blogspot.in/2013/12/chinas-anti-access-strategy-submarine.html

    To provide a point of reference, the following acoustic signatures are from "Chinese Evaluations of the U.S. Navy Submarine Force" and "CHINA’S FUTURE NUCLEAR SUBMARINE FORCE"

    Ocean background noise - 90 decibels
    Seawolf-class - 95 decibels
    Virginia-class - 95 decibels
    636 Kilo class - 105 decibels
    Akula-class - 110 decibels
    Type 093 - 110 decibels
    Type 094 - 120 decibels

    Even Russian sources put Akula at 110db , SL discrete frequencies in 5-200 Hz spectrum
    (dB relative to 1 Pa at 1m)

    http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm

    Ocean background noise of 90 db has got to be some sort of a joke.    The normal background is under 70 db.
    (www.usna.edu/Users/physics/ejtuchol/documents/SP411/Chapter11.pdf).

    The claim that the 636 Kilo is 105 db vs 95 for a Virginia class is yet another example of BS spawned by some
    sort of inadequacy syndrome.   This spam of numbers reminds me of the yapping about stealth.   Supposedly
    the F-22 has the radar cross section of a pea.   The question is what radar frequency and what angle of incidence.  
    Without answering these questions the claim is empty.    The same goes for these noise figures.   Apples and
    oranges comparisons without any credibility.    When the 636 is running on batteries it is significantly quieter
    than the larger Virginia *nuclear* submarine.
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Mike E on Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:57 am

    Akula's running on the low-speed propulsors would be quieter as well... Claims like these are baseless to say the very least. 

    Akula-2 is said to be significantly quieter than the improved-LA, and as such it can't be far off from the Virginia. Don't forget that dB numbers are not "fluid" and the actual noise level varies dramatically over a small number of units. 

    This list would put the Virginia at under 1/2 the loudness of an Akula, which is doubtful.
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:20 pm

    The Typhoon is actually a very quiet submarine... its enormous size means plenty of space for sound reduction measures... and of course being an SSBN it does not need to actually go anywhere at speed so it does not need to move at all greatly reducing the amount of noise it has to make.


    To provide a point of reference, the following acoustic signatures are from "Chinese Evaluations of the U.S. Navy Submarine Force" and "CHINA’S FUTURE NUCLEAR SUBMARINE FORCE"

    Those figures are useless without further information... are they top speed signatures, at rest signatures, low speed signatures?

    A Kilo operating on electric drive at low speed (3-4knts) would make almost no noise.

    Also ambient noise in the ocean depends on the place and time... whale song will change the ambient noise levels dramatically.

    A busy shipping lane will also mask the noise of a hunting Kilo.... and more importantly there are half a dozen types of Kilo out there... which one are they talking about?

    Do they know there is a difference... I suspect they don't because they are just pulling these numbers out of their ass.


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:22 pm

    Also isn't sound a log scale so the 15 Db difference between Akula and Virginia make the Virginia 150 times quieter?

    BS.


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:Also isn't sound a log scale so the 15 Db difference between Akula and Virginia make the Virginia 150 times quieter?

    BS.

    You are quite right, db is based on log base 10.

    For amplitude, A, the formula is 20*log_10(A/A0) dB. So the ratio between 110 dB and 95 dB is

    10^(110/20) / 10^(95/20) = 316228/56234 = 5.6

    So the Akula is supposedly almost six times noisier than the Virginia. That would be in the blogger's wet dreams.






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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:46 pm

    Every new gen Sub reduces noise level by 5-6x times , The difference between noise level of Victor 3 and Akual 1 is around 3x time and between Akula1 and Akula 2 its around 3x times.

    Ruby General Director did mentioned that borei was 5 times quiter than Akula and Oscar2

    ПЛ пр.955 имеют в 5 раз меньшую шумность, чем ПЛА пр.971 и пр.949А (заявление генерального директора ЦКБ "Рубин" А.А.Дьячкова, 21.12.2010 г.)

    5 times lower translates to translate to 7 dB reduction.

    So Virginia being 6 times lower than Akula wont be surprising as there is generation jump.

    I would think Yasen would achieve similar Noise Level as Virginia

    Since 955A Borei would further achieve noise reduction you can expect 3-4x reduction in noise level

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:58 pm

    Can Russian strategic submarines survive at sea? The fundamental limits of passive acoustics

    http://scienceandglobalsecurity.org/archive/sgs04miasnikov.pdf
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  zg18 on Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:52 pm

    BS-64 "Podmoskovye" launched today at Zvezdochka

    http://rusnavy.com/nowadays/strength/submarines/bs-64/index.php?print=Y



    It has been converted as a mother ship for deep sea operations.



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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  artjomh on Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:14 am

    Didn't think BS-64 would ever make it. Glad to be proven wrong.

    The model on top is a modified Delta III, btw

    Here are two easy ways to tell Delta III and Delta IV apart:

    1) D3 has elongated ellipsoid bow. D4 bow is more rounded

    2) D3 has square flooding vents, D4 has "slit" vents.

    Those are the two really obvious ones.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:27 pm

    http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm

    I realised Eugene Miasnikov article on Noise Level for Akula was comparing the Akula-1 noise level or even at best 971U coz in 1995 the Akula-2 was not really operational and not to mention the Gepard which are given the designation of Akula-3

    I think Akula class got some significant noise reduction between Vepr which is Akula-2 and Gepard class , So the figures for Akula might not be so relevant and perhaps we are looking at much quiter sub
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:25 am

    Visual characteristics of the combat readiness of naval strategic nuclear forces of Russia

    Photos nuclear submarine of strategic purpose (SSBN). 31st submarine division of the Northern Fleet of the Russian Navy (pictures are made in early August 2015). As can easily be seen in the pictures in the base Gadzhiyevo are 5x SSBNs - 4 of project 667BDRM (K-51 "Verkhoturye", K-84 "Yekaterinburg", K-18 "Karelia", K-407 "Novomoskovsk") and the new K-535 "Yury Dolgoruky" Project 955 (till now not to start combat duty). Given the fact that the SSBN K-114 "Tula", Project 667BDRM, is in average repairs at the head office of JSC Zvezdochka "in Severodvinsk, it can be concluded that in the sea on active service at the time of the photo shoot was only one boat in this division, K-117 "Bryansk", Project 667BDRM.

    Thus, these images show that 80 deployed strategic delivery vehicles (ballistic missiles) and 352 deployed nuclear warheads (in other words, 15.5% of the total number of carriers and 22.25% in the number of deployed nuclear warheads of the strategic nuclear forces of Russia) were stationary state of the cluster in the form of virtually unprotected in one place. This is a clear example of the level of combat readiness and combat the real value of the whole naval strategic nuclear forces (SSBNs) of Russia, which spent astronomical means. It is obvious that one assured destruction of enemy nuclear warheads 352 Nuclear land-based ballistic missiles RVSN is impossible in principle.

    Recall that the US Navy is also in very low estimate readiness and the degree of operational voltage Russian SSBNs - According to our blog, according to Naval Intelligence, the Russian nuclear missile submarines of strategic purpose made in 2012, only five exits on combat patrol that, apparently, it does not allow to maintain the continuity of the combat patrol at least one boat. For comparison, the nuclear missile submarines of the US Navy in 2012, made 28 exits on combat patrol, while in 2012, the sea is constantly on duty was an average of eight nuclear missile submarines of the US Navy.


    "Panther" in the company of five SSBNs (the fifth is almost invisible), Hajiyev 01.01-08.08.2015

    Now the bad news. It is in the basis of five SSBNs simultaneously suggestive. Assuming that one of the sevenSSBNs is still on combat patrols ("Tula" - repairs to the "star"), KOH our northern groups NSNF is only 0.14 (0.33 instead of desirable or close to the ideal of 0, 5). On the one hand, it may seem not so important: the launch range SLBM R-29RMU2 "Sineva" 11,500 km (Reference 2), to Washington - "only" 6,740 km away, while San Frantsisko- 7950 km, though, that all his ammunition BDRM able to release a "queue" for 3.5 minutes. (14 sec. Between starts, both during the operation of the legendary "hippo-2" in 1991 - Reference 3). E., If the will of the Russian Federation suffered a nuclear attack from the US, 15-20 minutes American ICBMs (at v = 7 km / s). SSBN 31st Division who are on duty, it would be enough to shoot out in answer.

    On the other hand, one of the potential aggressor may SSBN patrol (and, most likely, patrols) in the Barents and Norwegian Sea, in which some 500-1000 km from Gadzhiyevo (1.2-2.4 min. Flight SLBM). In this case, 50% of the marine component of the nuclear triad of the Armed Forces will be destroyed by a single warhead purely preventive (in the best case, having to spend no more than half the staff of ammunition). For complacency can certainly look for excuses in the absence of threat period (relying on SVR) and ready in case anything happens quickly out to sea (including medium repairs).


    "Karelia" and "Yekaterinburg," Hajiyev, 01.01-08.08.2015


    Yury Dolgoruky", Hajiyev 01.01-08.08.2015


    "Novomoskovsk" and "Verkhoturye" Hajiyev, 01.01-08.08.2015


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  artjomh on Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:09 pm

    George1 wrote:Now the bad news. It is in the basis of five SSBNs simultaneously suggestive. Assuming that one of the sevenSSBNs is still on combat patrols ("Tula" - repairs to the "star"), KOH our northern groups NSNF is only 0.14 (0.33 instead of desirable or close to the ideal of 0, 5). O

    Soviet Navy never had an ops tempo of 50%. It was always around 20-25%

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