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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

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    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:37 am

    Austin wrote:http://manglermuldoon.blogspot.in/2013/12/chinas-anti-access-strategy-submarine.html

    To provide a point of reference, the following acoustic signatures are from "Chinese Evaluations of the U.S. Navy Submarine Force" and "CHINA’S FUTURE NUCLEAR SUBMARINE FORCE"

    Ocean background noise - 90 decibels
    Seawolf-class - 95 decibels
    Virginia-class - 95 decibels
    636 Kilo class - 105 decibels
    Akula-class - 110 decibels
    Type 093 - 110 decibels
    Type 094 - 120 decibels

    Even Russian sources put Akula at 110db , SL discrete frequencies in 5-200 Hz spectrum
    (dB relative to 1 Pa at 1m)

    http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm

    Ocean background noise of 90 db has got to be some sort of a joke.    The normal background is under 70 db.
    (www.usna.edu/Users/physics/ejtuchol/documents/SP411/Chapter11.pdf).

    The claim that the 636 Kilo is 105 db vs 95 for a Virginia class is yet another example of BS spawned by some
    sort of inadequacy syndrome.   This spam of numbers reminds me of the yapping about stealth.   Supposedly
    the F-22 has the radar cross section of a pea.   The question is what radar frequency and what angle of incidence.  
    Without answering these questions the claim is empty.    The same goes for these noise figures.   Apples and
    oranges comparisons without any credibility.    When the 636 is running on batteries it is significantly quieter
    than the larger Virginia *nuclear* submarine.
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    Post  Mike E on Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:57 am

    Akula's running on the low-speed propulsors would be quieter as well... Claims like these are baseless to say the very least. 

    Akula-2 is said to be significantly quieter than the improved-LA, and as such it can't be far off from the Virginia. Don't forget that dB numbers are not "fluid" and the actual noise level varies dramatically over a small number of units. 

    This list would put the Virginia at under 1/2 the loudness of an Akula, which is doubtful.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:20 pm

    The Typhoon is actually a very quiet submarine... its enormous size means plenty of space for sound reduction measures... and of course being an SSBN it does not need to actually go anywhere at speed so it does not need to move at all greatly reducing the amount of noise it has to make.


    To provide a point of reference, the following acoustic signatures are from "Chinese Evaluations of the U.S. Navy Submarine Force" and "CHINA’S FUTURE NUCLEAR SUBMARINE FORCE"

    Those figures are useless without further information... are they top speed signatures, at rest signatures, low speed signatures?

    A Kilo operating on electric drive at low speed (3-4knts) would make almost no noise.

    Also ambient noise in the ocean depends on the place and time... whale song will change the ambient noise levels dramatically.

    A busy shipping lane will also mask the noise of a hunting Kilo.... and more importantly there are half a dozen types of Kilo out there... which one are they talking about?

    Do they know there is a difference... I suspect they don't because they are just pulling these numbers out of their ass.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:22 pm

    Also isn't sound a log scale so the 15 Db difference between Akula and Virginia make the Virginia 150 times quieter?

    BS.
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    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:Also isn't sound a log scale so the 15 Db difference between Akula and Virginia make the Virginia 150 times quieter?

    BS.

    You are quite right, db is based on log base 10.

    For amplitude, A, the formula is 20*log_10(A/A0) dB. So the ratio between 110 dB and 95 dB is

    10^(110/20) / 10^(95/20) = 316228/56234 = 5.6

    So the Akula is supposedly almost six times noisier than the Virginia. That would be in the blogger's wet dreams.





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    Post  Austin on Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:46 pm

    Every new gen Sub reduces noise level by 5-6x times , The difference between noise level of Victor 3 and Akual 1 is around 3x time and between Akula1 and Akula 2 its around 3x times.

    Ruby General Director did mentioned that borei was 5 times quiter than Akula and Oscar2

    ПЛ пр.955 имеют в 5 раз меньшую шумность, чем ПЛА пр.971 и пр.949А (заявление генерального директора ЦКБ "Рубин" А.А.Дьячкова, 21.12.2010 г.)

    5 times lower translates to translate to 7 dB reduction.

    So Virginia being 6 times lower than Akula wont be surprising as there is generation jump.

    I would think Yasen would achieve similar Noise Level as Virginia

    Since 955A Borei would further achieve noise reduction you can expect 3-4x reduction in noise level
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    Post  Austin on Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:58 pm

    Can Russian strategic submarines survive at sea? The fundamental limits of passive acoustics

    http://scienceandglobalsecurity.org/archive/sgs04miasnikov.pdf
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    Post  Austin on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:27 pm

    http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm

    I realised Eugene Miasnikov article on Noise Level for Akula was comparing the Akula-1 noise level or even at best 971U coz in 1995 the Akula-2 was not really operational and not to mention the Gepard which are given the designation of Akula-3

    I think Akula class got some significant noise reduction between Vepr which is Akula-2 and Gepard class , So the figures for Akula might not be so relevant and perhaps we are looking at much quiter sub
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    Post  George1 on Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:25 am

    Visual characteristics of the combat readiness of naval strategic nuclear forces of Russia

    Photos nuclear submarine of strategic purpose (SSBN). 31st submarine division of the Northern Fleet of the Russian Navy (pictures are made in early August 2015). As can easily be seen in the pictures in the base Gadzhiyevo are 5x SSBNs - 4 of project 667BDRM (K-51 "Verkhoturye", K-84 "Yekaterinburg", K-18 "Karelia", K-407 "Novomoskovsk") and the new K-535 "Yury Dolgoruky" Project 955 (till now not to start combat duty). Given the fact that the SSBN K-114 "Tula", Project 667BDRM, is in average repairs at the head office of JSC Zvezdochka "in Severodvinsk, it can be concluded that in the sea on active service at the time of the photo shoot was only one boat in this division, K-117 "Bryansk", Project 667BDRM.

    Thus, these images show that 80 deployed strategic delivery vehicles (ballistic missiles) and 352 deployed nuclear warheads (in other words, 15.5% of the total number of carriers and 22.25% in the number of deployed nuclear warheads of the strategic nuclear forces of Russia) were stationary state of the cluster in the form of virtually unprotected in one place. This is a clear example of the level of combat readiness and combat the real value of the whole naval strategic nuclear forces (SSBNs) of Russia, which spent astronomical means. It is obvious that one assured destruction of enemy nuclear warheads 352 Nuclear land-based ballistic missiles RVSN is impossible in principle.

    Recall that the US Navy is also in very low estimate readiness and the degree of operational voltage Russian SSBNs - According to our blog, according to Naval Intelligence, the Russian nuclear missile submarines of strategic purpose made in 2012, only five exits on combat patrol that, apparently, it does not allow to maintain the continuity of the combat patrol at least one boat. For comparison, the nuclear missile submarines of the US Navy in 2012, made 28 exits on combat patrol, while in 2012, the sea is constantly on duty was an average of eight nuclear missile submarines of the US Navy.

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 8 0_11944d_3a8d9722_orig
    "Panther" in the company of five SSBNs (the fifth is almost invisible), Hajiyev 01.01-08.08.2015

    Now the bad news. It is in the basis of five SSBNs simultaneously suggestive. Assuming that one of the sevenSSBNs is still on combat patrols ("Tula" - repairs to the "star"), KOH our northern groups NSNF is only 0.14 (0.33 instead of desirable or close to the ideal of 0, 5). On the one hand, it may seem not so important: the launch range SLBM R-29RMU2 "Sineva" 11,500 km (Reference 2), to Washington - "only" 6,740 km away, while San Frantsisko- 7950 km, though, that all his ammunition BDRM able to release a "queue" for 3.5 minutes. (14 sec. Between starts, both during the operation of the legendary "hippo-2" in 1991 - Reference 3). E., If the will of the Russian Federation suffered a nuclear attack from the US, 15-20 minutes American ICBMs (at v = 7 km / s). SSBN 31st Division who are on duty, it would be enough to shoot out in answer.

    On the other hand, one of the potential aggressor may SSBN patrol (and, most likely, patrols) in the Barents and Norwegian Sea, in which some 500-1000 km from Gadzhiyevo (1.2-2.4 min. Flight SLBM). In this case, 50% of the marine component of the nuclear triad of the Armed Forces will be destroyed by a single warhead purely preventive (in the best case, having to spend no more than half the staff of ammunition). For complacency can certainly look for excuses in the absence of threat period (relying on SVR) and ready in case anything happens quickly out to sea (including medium repairs).

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 8 0_11944c_93fd9faf_orig
    "Karelia" and "Yekaterinburg," Hajiyev, 01.01-08.08.2015

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 8 0_11944a_bd043dc5_orig
    Yury Dolgoruky", Hajiyev 01.01-08.08.2015

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 8 0_119449_55f77740_orig
    "Novomoskovsk" and "Verkhoturye" Hajiyev, 01.01-08.08.2015
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    Post  artjomh on Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:09 pm

    George1 wrote:Now the bad news. It is in the basis of five SSBNs simultaneously suggestive. Assuming that one of the sevenSSBNs is still on combat patrols ("Tula" - repairs to the "star"), KOH our northern groups NSNF is only 0.14 (0.33 instead of desirable or close to the ideal of 0, 5). O

    Soviet Navy never had an ops tempo of 50%. It was always around 20-25%
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    Post  max steel on Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:19 pm

    Kremlin’s New Sub: Russians Are ‘Far More Innovative’ Than US Ever Was

    News that Russia is testing the latest addition to its underwater fleet of war machines, the BS-64 Podmoskovie nuclear submarine, have apparently left western analyst wondering what the watercraft is capable of while on months-long missions in the deep waters of the world ocean.

    The BS-64, previously known as K-64, is not a new sub, but a refurbished Project 667BDRM ballistic missile submarine (NATO reporting name: Delta-IV) that spent over 15 years at a repair plant located in the Russian port city of Severodvinsk. Laid down in 1982, it was commissioned four years later and remained in service until 1999.

    The Podmoskovie is capable of carrying a crew of 135 people and is armed with 16 R-29RMU Sineva liquid-fueled ballistic missiles. It has been assigned to Russia’s Northern Fleet.The 550-foot sub powered by two nuclear reactors was converted into a vessel designed to conduct scientific research, as well as a carrier for nuclear deep-water stations, including the top secret Losharik sub.

    The new section allows the submarine to dock and undock deep-water vessels and houses a compartment for the crew and a research unit.The BS-64 “appears to be part science vessel, part spy ship, part commando transport, and part ‘mothership’ for mini-subs and drones. But no one outside of the Kremlin and the Moscow’s future crew knows for sure,” defense analyst David Axe observed in an article titled “Russia’s Mysterious New Submarine.”

    Norman Polmar, an expert focusing on naval and intelligence issues, fueled keen interest for the Podmoskovie by cautioning against underestimatingRussian engineers. “These guys are far more innovative than we ever were,” Axe quoted Polmar as saying. The naval expert who has advised the US government on submarine strategy speaks from experience since he has been to the Russian design bureaus tasked with developing submarines.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:24 am

    Repair and modernization of six 6 unclear submarines in Far East Plant "Zvezda"
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    Post  George1 on Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:24 am

    Russia Unveils Plans to Modernize Nuke-Powered Submarines

    Russia is modernizing 12 nuclear-powered submarines as part of an ambitious project to extend the life of the vessels by another 20 years, according to Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.

    Six of the submarines are undergoing repairs and upgrades at Zvezda shipyard at Bolshoy Kamen on Russia's Pacific coast.

    According to navy and shipyard representatives, the upgrades include new missiles and other weapons. The work aims to put the submarines on the same technological level as Russia's next-generation nuclear-powered boats, such as the new Project 885M Yasen-class submarines.

    The six boats reportedly include Schuka-B/Project 971 Akula-class nuclear-powered attack submarines and Antyey/Project 949A Oscar II-class guided-missile submarines that were built in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

    Three of the six subs reportedly are receiving new anti-ship cruise missiles.


    The modernization program has left current force levels as low as nine active submarines across the fleet.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151002/1027942520/russia-submarine-nuclear-sergei-shoigu.html#ixzz3nT2eTQOJ
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    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:52 pm

    Status of every single Russian Nuclear Submarine:

    http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/592457.html
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    Post  artjomh on Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:06 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Status of every single Russian Nuclear Submarine:

    http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/592457.html

    Deep Storm is an amazing website.
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    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:06 am

    A lot of Akulas are in repair (about 6 of them). There will be 8 Oscars in total when their repair will be completed. Victor III class subs will be the first of old classes that will be withdrawn
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:52 am

    artjomh wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Status of every single Russian Nuclear Submarine:

    http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/592457.html

    Deep Storm is an amazing website.

    Agreed 100%, but exceptionally frustrating for us non-Russian speakers... The pages are graphics rather than text, so we can't even copy and paste into a translator... Oh, the pain...

    Yes, I need to learn to read Russian, but #$%& I'm 50 and a grumpy old Engineer who has enough to do as it is... Very Happy
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:03 am

    TheArmenian wrote:Status of every single Russian Nuclear Submarine:

    http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/592457.html

    If one takes this list at face value and assumes that current in-service units still have significant service life remaining, by 2020 the Russian nuclear sub fleet would comprise of:

    SSBN
    Project 955/955A: 7-8
    Project 667BDRM: 6
    Project 667BDR: 1-3 (assuming some retirements)

    SSGN/SSN
    Project 855/855A: 5-6
    Project 949A: 8
    Project 971: 10
    Project 945/945A: 4
    Project 671RTMK 1-4 (assuming some retirements)

    This is vastly more optimistic than I had expected, particularly given a decent number of 949A/971 will undergo deep modernisation, and is certainly not the doom & gloom scenario that our sh!t-eating MSM media like to throw around.

    I expect that actual delivery schedules will blow out to the right (as they always do in just about any human endeavour) but it is encouraging. russia
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    Post  Svyatoslavich on Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:10 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    artjomh wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Status of every single Russian Nuclear Submarine:

    http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/592457.html

    Deep Storm is an amazing website.

    Agreed 100%, but exceptionally frustrating for us non-Russian speakers...  The pages are graphics rather than text, so we can't even copy and paste into a translator...  Oh, the pain...

    Yes, I need to learn to read Russian, but #$%& I'm 50 and a grumpy old Engineer who has enough to do as it is...  Very Happy
    Learn to read in Russian is not difficult. Many people get scared of the alphabet, but it is really easy and very phonetic. Declensions can be a pain if you need to write or (worse) speak in Russian, but quite transparent when reading. Go for it, in a few months you will be already reading some simple texts like short news.
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    Post  slasher on Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:33 am

    This article's from May last year. Anyone can say what's the status of these four subs?

    http://vpk-news.ru/news/25314

    I've read that Tomsk has returned to service but little info on how the repairs on others are progressing.
    Thought I saw recently too that Ryazan completed repairs but can't seem to find any confirmation.
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    Post  slasher on Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:56 am

    ^^^ Okay some news on one of these four:

    https://rbth.com/news/2016/03/07/upgraded-kuzbass-nuclear-sub-to-join-pacific-fleet-in-march_573655
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    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:07 pm

    Can the submarine launched KALIBR cruise missile be launched by a surface ship's torpedo tubes?
    In theory at least if not in practice.
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    Post  nastle77 on Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:48 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:Was the Victor II class submarine equipped with type 65 21 inch ASuW torpedoes ? or any Asuw torpedoes ?

    It had 2 x 650 mm torpedo tubes for 65-76 torpedoes. No 650 mm rocket-torpedoes, only Vodopad (which is 533 mm)

    Also the SSN-16 Stallion was a dual role weapon ? ASuw and ASW?

    RPK-6 had two types of warhead stage: a torpedo and a depth charge. So, in a way, it was a dual-role system, but it couldn't be used for both at the same time, the two versions were in fact separate weapons.

    That being said, RPK-6 was designed as an anti-submarine weapon, so using the torpedo in anti-shipping role would be cross-purpose and likely require complete reprogramming of its search programme.

    Did it have the same range in the ASW and Asuw role ?

    Depends on how you count it.

    The rocket stage was the in both versions. Exact range is classified, but various sources give the range between 35 and 50 km. The depth charge warhead was, obviously, completely unguided. The torpedo version, on the other hand, had propulsion of its own, and could travel an extra 8 km. However, practically, the torpedo was programmed to travel in a circular descending pattern, searching for the enemy submarine.

    Like I said before, while RPK-6 had a torpedo head, it was not designed for action against enemy surface ships, and it would be highly unlikely that it would every be re-programmed for that kind of operation.
    Thanks for the detailed explanation, given this how would you rate the Victor II/III subs in the ASUW role ?
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:37 am

    Can the submarine launched KALIBR cruise missile be launched by a surface ship's torpedo tubes?
    In theory at least if not in practice.

    In theory it probably could... but don't know why you would bother.

    I have seen a video of a torpedo being launched from a ships torpedo launcher where the torpedo is blown off the side into the water and then a second or two later the rocket propelled missile bursts out of the water on a ballistic path... I suspect this video shows something like the SS-N-15 or SS-N-16 being fired from ship based torpedo tubes.

    Medvedka or Klub (the former with a dedicated launcher and the latter with the UKSK launcher) would make rather more sense for such a role.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Can the submarine launched KALIBR cruise missile be launched by a surface ship's torpedo tubes?
    In theory at least if not in practice.

    In theory it probably could... but don't know why you would bother.

    I have seen a video of a torpedo being launched from a ships torpedo launcher where the torpedo is blown off the side into the water and then a second or two later the rocket propelled missile bursts out of the water on a ballistic path... I suspect this video shows something like the SS-N-15 or SS-N-16 being fired from ship based torpedo tubes.

    Medvedka or Klub (the former with a dedicated launcher and the latter with the UKSK launcher) would make rather more sense for such a role.

    You could give old destroyers like Udaloys or sovr..s possibilies to engage targets at 2000 Km.

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