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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:10 am

    Rather than launchign them from the torpedo tubes, it would make more sense.. though it would be more expensive and complicated... to install UKSK launchers for the purpose.

    An upgrade of their electronics and sensors to modern systems would free up enormous amounts of internal space, and also reduce crew requirements too... with all that extra internal space you could probably fit several UKSK launchers and new vertical launch SAM missile tubes too.

    This would not only standardise their armament to match new vessels so older missiles and systems can be retired earlier, but it would also give them brand new capabilities... the Sovremmeny had limited anti sub options, while the Udaloy had limited surface ship attack options... UKSK launchers would give anti sub, anti ship, and land attack capability. And that would include new Zircon hypersonic missile capability too.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:26 pm

    http://rueconomics.ru/165172-apl-pyatogo-pokoleniya-haski-vmesto-reziny-poluchit-besshumnye-kompozity

    According to this article:
    According to experts, the use of composite technology in the construction of submarines, as well as the use of new types of missiles, completely fits into the concept of the construction of nuclear submarines of the fifth generation. Recall that last year the two types of submarines of the fifth generation have been announced: ASW submarine, the so-called boat-hunter, and the "aircraft carrier killer" with cruise missiles on board. So one project "Husky" the point here is not exactly over.

    "Husky" is referred to replace Yasen class and will be armed with Zircon missile so this submarine will be the  "aircraft carrier killer".

    Multi-nuclear submarine of project "Husky" fifth generation will replace nuclear submarine Project 885 "Ash", which are now being built and enter the combat strength of the Russian Navy.
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=3&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160318/1392230572.html&usg=ALkJrhialvrxXJ-nlFzgtIGtDZwB9tUIwA

    They are also working on a second project which will probably be more light submarine than "Husky"
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos on Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:56 pm

    They should replace Victors and Sierras that are 20 years old, not subs which are not even build yet.

    Oscar II are very good against carrier, just need improved missiles. 72 Oniks or Zircon each with improved range to 1000km is really enough. Could be easy to improve range because Granits are 10m long and Oniks just 8m ...

    Or maybe they should design just one sub that could replace all current subs. Yasen can already replace any of them but its price i really high for a russian sub.

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    JohninMK

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:35 am

    Quite a good introduction to key Russian nuclear submarines.

    http://tass.ru/en/defense/862656


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    jhelb

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    Are Western Nuclear Submarines More Silent Than Russian Nuclear Submarines?

    Post  jhelb on Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:08 am

    This report has been prepared by Lowy Institute, Australia

    http://www.lowyinstitute.org/files/nuclear-armed-submarines-in-indo-pacific-asia-stabiliser-or-menace_0.pdf

    While the report basically reflects upon the SSBN capabilities of China & India they also say that Russian submarines are more noisy than Western analogues. Is there any truth in it? Can you guys provide some estimated noise levels of US SSBNs?

    I found the estimated noise levels for Russian SSBNs http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm





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    max steel

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  max steel on Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:34 pm

    Two Russian Advanced Nuclear Submarines to Be Laid Down in 2016


    Two nuclear submarines of Russia's Borey- and Yasen-class will be laid down until the year-end, an official representative of Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation said Friday.
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    max steel

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  max steel on Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:41 pm

    Fifth-Gen Russian Subs to Use Composites for Increased Stealth


    Fifth-generation Russian submarines will use anti-sonar composite materials to hide them from enemy detection systems.The structure and composition of these new multilayer composite materials will significantly reduce the sonar signals reflected from submarine, isolate working mechanisms from vibrations, and so on,” Valery Polovinkin, an adviser to the general director of the Krylov State Research Center, told Izvestia

    He also said that, due to the composite material’s high internal loss factor, enemy sonar would simply be unable to pick up the required level of signal while the material’s sound absorption characteristics would minimize the spread of vibrational energy.

    The use of composite materials would reduce the weight of the submarine’s structures, increase its reliability and reduce operating costs since composites don’t corrode and need no paint.

    Composite structures would also simplify manufacturing, Polovinkin added.The new composite materials are currently being tested and the first all-composite propeller may be ready for sea trials already in 2018.

    The new composite materials are still in testing, but Russia will test its first composite propeller design in 2018. “This is one of our institute’s most promising projects,” Polovinkin said.

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    George1

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:25 pm

    Current status of construction of nuclear submarines

    Web resource "Russian submariners" vk.com/club_podvodnik "today posted a very interesting information about the estimated time of delivery of construction of nuclear submarines and their current status:
    At the last meeting of representatives of Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, OAO "PO" Sevmash ", and the main contractors supplying enterprises were announced the following dates ships readiness:

    1. Project "Borey-A."

       - Coll. 204 (parent) "Prince Vladimir", readiness 44.6%
       receiving power - November 2016
       conclusion of the workshop - March 2017

       - Coll. 205 (1st serial) "Prince Oleg" readiness 19.1%,
       the withdrawal of the workshop - December 2018
       Deposit - December 2019

       - Coll. 206 "Generalissimo Suvorov" readiness 13.9%,
       the withdrawal of the workshop - December 2018
       Deposit - December 2020

       - Coll. 207 "The Emperor Alexander III", readiness 2.7%,
       the withdrawal of the workshop - December 2019
       Deposit - December 2020

       - Coll. 208, readiness 0.3%
       tab - December 2016,
       the conclusion of the workshop - February 2020
       Deposit - November 2021


    2. The project "Ash-M".

       - Coll. 161 (parent) "Kazan", readiness 67.5%
       Deposit - December 2017

       - Coll. 162 (1st serial) "Novosibirsk", readiness 35.5%,
       the withdrawal of the workshop - December 2018
       Deposit - December 2019

       - Coll. 163 "Krasnoyarsk", readiness 19.3%
       conclusion from the workshop - December 2018
       Deposit - December 2020

       - Coll. 164 "Arkhangelsk", readiness 4.7%,
        the withdrawal of the workshop - December 2019
       Deposit - December 2021

       - Coll. 165, readiness 0.6%
       tab - July 2016,
       the conclusion of the workshop - December 2020
       Deposit - December 2022

       - Coll. 166, readiness 0.3%
       tab - July 2017,
       the conclusion of the workshop - December 2021
       Deposit - December 2023

    http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/629346.html
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:19 am

    Detailed design of Russia's fifth-generation Husky sub to be ready in two years

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/865434
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:20 pm

    They should replace Victors and Sierras that are 20 years old, not subs which are not even build yet.

    When they say these new subs will replace Yasen I think they mean replace it in production.

    The old Victors etc will of course be replaced first, though with upgrades the Sierras are comparable with the Akulas so they might stay in service for some time. Very Happy
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:37 pm

    They even still using RK-55's on the modernized akula's?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:05 pm

    RK-55s are nuclear armed and AFAIK are withdrawn from service already.

    Upgraded Akulas?

    Do you mean the Pike class?

    Nato codename for Akula is Typhoon.

    AFAIK the upgraded vessels with cruise missile capability will be equipped with Kalibr in conventional and presumably nuclear armed models in reserve too.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:47 pm

    Yes I would mean the pike class
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    max steel

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  max steel on Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:53 pm

    Exposed: Russia's Master Plan for Its Next Class of Deadly Submarines

    Majumdar and his sensationalist reporting lol1
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:39 pm

    max steel wrote:Exposed: Russia's Master Plan for Its Next Class of Deadly Submarines

    Majumdar and his sensationalist reporting   lol1

    I don't think I have seen something more stupid than this scratch

    SLBM in a SNA with liquid metal cooled reactors which can't be shut down lol!

    This guy is a particular case.

    Singular_trafo

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:27 am

    Isos wrote:
    max steel wrote:

    Majumdar and his sensationalist reporting   lol1

    I don't think I have seen something more stupid than this scratch

    SLBM in a SNA with liquid metal cooled reactors which can't be shut down lol!

    This guy is a particular case.

    The problem of freezing coolant is not the drawback of the liquid metal cooled reactor, rather than a problem with one specific, 50 years old designs.

    They managed to restart the lyra onshore testbed reactor from frozen, but of course the shutdown happened with direct designer supervision,and the startup as well.

    Of course it risking a partial core meltdown if the shut down/start up not done properly.

    Additionaly the original design of the lyras was as light as possible, so they had to use the steam-metal steam generator to keep the coolant liquid.


    In a new ,updated reacotr design , with modern heat simulation tools and control electornic the reactor should be sent into freezening state, and go back to full power in short notice.




    And the most butifull part: the liquid metal fast neutron reactor means a quantum leap in reactor technology ,similar one like the gas trubine in the airplane technology.


    A liquid metal cooled reactor mated with direct thermoelectric converter could make a submarine that is extremly quiet.
    Compared to that the most up to date nuclear sumarine should be as noisy like an old steam engine .

    Of course the efficiency would be not 30% like with the carnot, but only 10-15%, but the coolant can be moved with magnetohydraulic pumps, so you have a nuclear reactor /generator powertrain with no moving parts and no phase changing working medium.

    Russia has all design institute of the SU, the ones that made reactors for Rorsat, they have the Topaz as well, both of them was reactor with direct thermoelectric converter. They connected to the grid the BN-800 fast neutron sodium cooled comercial reactor last year, so there is the knowledge/industry to make it works.
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    max steel

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  max steel on Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:47 pm

    Orwell would be astonished by this level of double speak Neutral

    Russian Subs Are Reheating a Cold War Chokepoint lol1



    The recent U.S. promise to fund upgrades to Iceland’s military airfield at Keflavik is no diplomatic bone thrown to a small ally. The improvements will allow the U.S. Navy’s new P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft to keep an eye on Russia’s increasingly active and capable submarine force in a region whose importance is rising with the tensions between Moscow and the West. In short, the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap is back.

    During the Cold War, the maritime choke points between Greenland, Iceland, and the UK were key to the defense of Europe. This “GIUK gap” represented the line that Soviet naval forces had to cross in order to reach the Atlantic and stop U.S. forces heading across the sea to reinforce America’s European allies. It was also the area that the Soviet Union’s submarine-based nuclear forces would have to pass as they deployed for their nuclear strike missions. In response, the United States and its northern NATO allies spent considerable time, money, and effort on bolstering anti-submarine warfare capabilities and intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance in the region. Maritime patrol aircraft from the UK, Norway, and the U.S.(Navy P-3s, flying from Keflavik) covered the area from above, while nuclear and conventional submarines lurked below the surface. The choke points were also monitored by an advanced network of underwater sensors installed to detect and track Soviet submarines.

    But after the Cold War ended, the GIUK gap disappeared from NATO’s maritime mind. U.S. forces left Iceland in 2006, and the UK, facing budget pressures, retired its fleet of maritime patrol aircraft fleet in 2010. (The Netherlands did the same in 2003.) Anti-submarine warfare and the North Atlantic were hardly priorities for an Alliance embroiled in peacekeeping, counter-insurgency, and fighting pirates in far-flung Bosnia, Afghanistan, and the Horn of Africa.

    But the term “GIUK gap” is now heard again in NATO circles (and sometimes as GIUK-N gap, to signify the inclusion of the maritime domain around Norway), as it becomes increasingly apparent that Russia is pouring money into its naval forces in general, and its submarine fleet in particular. Moscow is introducing new classes of conventional and nuclear attack submarines, among them the Yasen class and the Kalina class, the latter of which is thought to include air-independent propulsion. AIP, which considerably reduces the noise level of conventional submarines, was until recently seen only in Western navies’ most capable conventional subs. Much of Russia’s investment in its submarine force has been focused on its Northern Fleet, which is based in Murmansk and intended for operations in and around the Arctic, as well as the Atlantic. The Northern Fleet is also the home of Russia’s submarine-based nuclear deterrent.

    Russia is believed to be putting these new sub-surface capabilities to the test. The UK, Sweden, and Finland have all launched recent hunts for suspected Russian submarines deep in their territorial waters. Russia has also showed off its new ability to launch land-attack cruise missiles from its submarines; late last year, a sub in the Mediterranean fired Kalibr missiles against targets in Syria.

    Russia’s growing sub-surface capabilities are coupled with an apparent political will to use them. Its recently revised maritime strategy emphasizes operations in the Arctic, along with the need for Russian maritime forces to have access to the broader Atlantic Ocean. And that access will have to be, just as during the Cold War, through the GIUK gap.

    Now the United States is pivoting back to the region; witness the Obama administration’s recent announcement that it intends to spend part of the proposed 2017 European Reassurance Initiative budget on upgrading facilities at Keflavik.

    And the U.S. is not alone. Britain recently announced that it will seek to rebuild its maritime patrol aircraft fleet, probably by buying P-8s from Boeing. Norway is also considering its options for the future of its maritime patrol aircraft, and is also looking to buy a new class of submarines. Norway also recently upgraded its signal intelligence ship with new U.S. sensors, and the ship is primarily intended for operations in the vast maritime spaces of the High North.

    The emerging challenge in the North Atlantic should also drive NATO and its members to look hard at regenerating the ability to conduct anti-submarine warfare against a potent adversary. European nations should also take a hard look at its aging maritime patrol aircraft fleet and think about its future. The UK and the Netherlands are not the only countries who let their MPA fleets slip after the end of the Cold War.

    While current U.S. and NATO efforts at deterring further Russian aggression may be most visible through ground force deployments, exercises, and pre-positioned equipment in Europe’s east, a mostly unseen contest is also emerging in the North Atlantic. The GIUK gap is back.
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    Tolstoy

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Tolstoy on Thu May 05, 2016 9:22 am

    artjomh wrote:It had 2 x 650 mm torpedo tubes for 65-76 torpedoes. No 650 mm rocket-torpedoes, only Vodopad (which is 533 mm)

    Is the choice of a HWT torpedo dictated exclusively by the type of combat management system (CMS) & its associated torpedo fire-control system? If NOT, can Russia-origin torpedoes be fired from any SSK of non-Russian design? Thank You.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:32 am

    Project 667BDR/Delta III submarines are alive and well

    On 5 July 2016, Svyatoy Georgiy Pobedonosets, a Project 66BDR/Delta III class submarine, returned to its base in Vilyuchinsk after a combat patrol.

    It is quite remarkable that these submarines are still in service--K-433 Sv. Georgiy Pobedonosets was accepted for service 1980, so it is 36 years old. Even accounting for the fact that she spent most of its service life at a pier, she is an old submarine. The R-29R missiles are getting old too, of course, but they are probably replaced regularly. The Soviet Union produced a lot of SLBMs, so Russia will not run out of missiles for quite some time. We know that there were 4.3 missiles produced for each R-29R launcher, so at some point Russia had almost 1000 missiles of this type. Even though several hundred were probably expended in flight tests over the years, it should be possible to find enough missiles to put on the three Project 667BDR submarines that still remain in service. And they seem to be in good shape - K-223 Podolsk launched its R-29R missile during the exercise in October 2015.

    Delta III submarines will probably retire after new Project 955 Borey submarines take their place in the Pacific. But there are plans to keep at least some old submarines in service -- Ryazan has been undergoing overhaul and will return to the fleet in some capacity.
    http://russianforces.org/blog/2016/08/project_667bdrdelta_iii_submar.shtml



    New schedule for submarine construction

    According to an industry source quoted by TASS, the new Project 955 submarine Knyaz Vladimir will be accepted for service in 2018--a year later than planned. Construction of the submarine began in July 2012. The Kazan multipurpose submarine of the Project 885M class will also join the fleet in 2018. Kazan and Knyaz Vladimir are expected to be launched in December 2016 and March 2017 respectively.

    Knyaz Vladimir is the fourth submarine of the Project 955 class (it is also often classified as Project 955A). The fifth submarine, Knyaz Oleg, is expected to join the fleet in 2019 (it was laid down in July 2014), the sixth and seventh Generalissimus Suvorov (December 2014) and Imperator Alexander III (December 2015) will follow in 2020. The eighth and final Project 955 Borey submarine (to be laid down in December 2016) is expected to begin service in 2021.

    http://russianforces.org/blog/2016/07/new_schedule_for_submarine_con.shtml

    Honesroc

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Honesroc on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:17 am

    Interesting analysis on Russia's Arctic ambitions and capabilities. This article touches on special purpose-built submarines as well as a planned Arctic sonar-net similar to SOSUS

    http://www.hisutton.com/Analysis%20-Russia%20seeks%20submarine%20advantage%20in%20Arctic.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:38 pm

    ..WTF?

    Russia is "turning the Arctic into Russia's own back yard."

    Geography lesson for the idiot that wrote that article the Arctic IS Russias back yard... read a fucking atlas.... geez!!!


    Honesroc

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Honesroc on Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:..WTF?

    Russia is "turning the Arctic into Russia's own back yard."

    Geography lesson for the idiot that wrote that article the Arctic IS Russias back yard... read a fucking atlas.... geez!!!


    Gary takes extreme exception to an article's title... As for myself, I'm not bothered by such trivial matters.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:46 am

    Garry takes exception to ignoring western propaganda and just accepting western views as reality.

    If you want to ignore it it will never change and actually only get worse...

    "Aggressive Russia turning to militarise the Black sea by spending money upgrading their military forces in occupied Crimea"

    "Aggressive Russia spending money on military facilities in occupied Japanese islands in northern pacific."

    Now they are spending money in their northern territories... the aggressive bastards... but lets ignore that crap because the articles have nice pictures...

    Singular_trafo

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:43 pm

    Honesroc wrote:Interesting analysis on Russia's Arctic ambitions and capabilities. This article touches on special purpose-built submarines as well as a planned Arctic sonar-net similar to SOSUS

    http://www.hisutton.com/Analysis%20-Russia%20seeks%20submarine%20advantage%20in%20Arctic.html

    I think the Kilos and the sonar network interrelated.

    The kilos are very quiet in electric mode, means they are ideal rocket/torpedo carrier platform, the sonar network gives the targeting information for the long range eqipment, and bingo, a torpedo carrier rocket can kill any ship/submarine in the sonar network.


    But in the artic you can't use kilos (but you haven't got surface ships as well) , means that the small reactors feed not only sonars, but torpedo mines as well.


    It means that the exclusive economic zone a no go land for any foreign warship/submarine.


    It gives a different view for the chinese misland building activity.

    The main purpose of the chinese sea islands is to protect and control the underwater sonar system.



    nastle77

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:52 am

    GarryB wrote:Garry takes exception to ignoring western propaganda and just accepting western views as reality.

    If you want to ignore it it will never change and actually only get worse...

    "Aggressive Russia turning to militarise the Black sea by spending money upgrading their military forces in occupied Crimea"

    "Aggressive Russia spending money on military facilities in occupied Japanese islands in northern pacific."

    Now they are spending money in their northern territories... the aggressive bastards... but lets ignore that crap because the articles have nice pictures...

    I agree it's like saying why is US building military bases in Caribbean or UK patrolling the English channel
    all the time western media ignores the military resurgence of Japan

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