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    5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:57 am

    Why do you think it isn't?

    Baseline model is SSGN with mid section UKSK tubes.

    Remove the mid section UKSK tubes and you have a SSN.

    Replace the mid section UKSK tubes with SLBMs and you have a SSBN.

    You think "modular" means it needs a big split down the middle with big yellow text saying "вставьте ракетную стойку здесь"  (Insert Missile Rack Here)?
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    Isos

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:16 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Why do you think it isn't?

    Baseline model is SSGN with mid section UKSK tubes.

    Remove the mid section UKSK tubes and you have a SSN.

    Replace the mid section UKSK tubes with SLBMs and you have a SSBN.

    You think "modular" means it needs a big split down the middle with big yellow text saying "вставьте ракетную стойку здесь"  (Insert Missile Rack Here)?

    That's what could actually happen. SSN without the lunchers at mid section but they keep the front one 16 lunchers which is the basic configuration for russian big ships. The size would be reduce so it would be smaller than any previous soviet sub which would be cheaper to operate and easier and faster to produce.

    I expect them to be fir submarine forces what Gordhkov is suppose to be for surface forces and Yassen would be the bigger ship but in lower number.

    They have to replace in the long term akulas, Victors and Sierras. So they will probably order 20 of them in all.
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    Hole

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  Hole on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:50 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Why do you think it isn't?

    Baseline model is SSGN with mid section UKSK tubes.

    Remove the mid section UKSK tubes and you have a SSN.

    Replace the mid section UKSK tubes with SLBMs and you have a SSBN.

    You think "modular" means it needs a big split down the middle with big yellow text saying "вставьте ракетную стойку здесь"  (Insert Missile Rack Here)?

    That was a rhetorical question. Look at the posts above mine: "It has Missiles." "Why has it Missiles?" "Why so few Missiles?"
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:13 pm

    Hole wrote:Didn´t they want to make the sub modular?

    I think the submarine with 20% of missiles in the nose, and 80% of missiles in the middle section doesn't make sense.


    It is cheaper to put the missiles into the middle section if it is there anyway.

    Two explanation for this:
    1. the artist was lazy ( considering the conning tower has edges it can be an explanation )
    2. They will build the nose section independently, and they will marry it to random middle sections .
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:00 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Hole wrote:Didn´t they want to make the sub modular?

    I think the submarine with 20% of missiles in the nose, and 80% of missiles in the middle section doesn't make sense.


    It is cheaper to put the missiles into the middle section if it is there anyway.

    Two explanation for this:
    1. the artist was lazy ( considering the conning tower has edges it can be an explanation )
    2. They will build the nose section independently, and they will marry it to random middle sections .


    Torpedoes are no longer sufficient self-defense weapon for submarines, missiles are necessary hence frontal launchers

    Looks like all variants will have 8 vertically launched missiles as part of basic weapons package
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    Hole

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  Hole on Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:18 pm

    You mean, the middle section with more missiles will be optional.
    Maybe a special SSGN Version. Or this are SLBM´s.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:47 pm

    Hole wrote:You mean, the middle section with more missiles will be optional.
    Maybe a special SSGN Version. Or this are SLBM´s.

    This one is clearly SSGN, middle section is dead giveaway, stock Yasen style launchers.

    And yes, it's middle section that will be different between variants, front and rear will be identical

    This way they could buld different submarine types by simply selecting different middle section: VLS one like here for SSGN, large ballistics missile launchers for SSBN, mini-sub bank for spy version or just not install middle section at all if they want stock SSN like old Akula

    Each version will have good basic weapon package thanks to both torpedo tubes and VLS cells in the front
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    GarryB

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:05 am

    I think the layout is quite sensible.... if you have a look at the front setup... remember the torpedos and torpedo tubes are now in the middle of the vessel, so in the nose you would have a large round sonar array in the nose and then behind that you would have flank arrays on each side... which leaves the middle empty... putting two UKSK launchers there makes a lot of sense because except during launch a UKSK launch bin wont make any noise to effect the arrays.

    With 16 missiles up front you effectively have an SSN... not enough to call it an SSGN but able to be equipped with a variety of missiles to allow a variety of missions that makes it flexible and capable.

    With a rear section that can either take a single row of SSBNs... ie 8... in other words half the payload of a current Borei then you can have an SSBN that has space either side of the SLBMs for torpedos and torpedo tubes to make it a normal sub.... or you could have more UKSK launch bins there to make it a viable SSGN with the potential for a large missile attack on any particular target.... plus torpedo tubes either side.

    That offers the same design for three different weapon setups.

    The SSN could be shorter with the torpedo tubes on the outside and where the SSBN and the SSGN have vertical launch tubes down the middle the SSN can store its torpedos and missiles for launching through the torpedo tubes...
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:20 am

    Dare I suggest that the central module could also accept a specialized bay for storage and launch of "Status 6" or "Kanyon" for whatever the intercontinental robot torpedo uber-nuke is called?
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    GarryB

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:07 am

    Dare I suggest that the central module could also accept a specialized bay for storage and launch of "Status 6" or "Kanyon" for whatever the intercontinental robot torpedo uber-nuke is called?

    Exactly... and it could also be used for special modules for underwater "research"... and a range of other purposes... including divers and special forces delivery and extraction... hell it could be used to sail into dangerous waters and release and recover UAVs that are vertical takeoff... all of sudden a UAV appears and then collects data and maybe even hangs around to record an attack to determine if a follow up attack is needed and then leaves in an unexpected direction and then disappears.

    UAVs might be expendable but they are not cheap so being able to recover them makes them more valuable... but flying them from Russia would take time and be noticed... so hidden platforms moving bases in international waters is useful.

    I do however suspect that if this Kanyon system is intercontinental then there is no huge advantage to taking it away from Russia for launch... though I suppose that would eliminate NATOs chances of intercepting it no matter which path it takes from Russia...
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    Isos

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:24 am

    With a rear section that can either take a single row of SSBNs... ie 8... in other words half the payload of a current Borei then you can have an SSBN that has space either side of the SLBMs for torpedos and torpedo tubes to make it a normal sub.... or you could have more UKSK launch bins there to make it a viable SSGN with the potential for a large missile attack on any particular target.... plus torpedo tubes either side.

    Or they could be made for 8 Bulava that can also accomodate with VLS specialy made to fit inside if you want to use cruise missiles. You know normal bay is for bulava but the missile could be taken off and replaced by a luncher with cruise missile very quickly at the port.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:30 pm

    @GarryB

    I don't think they'll keep torpedos in the middle. Wiki article on Yasen suggests they'll move them back in the bow on Husky. Also in the picture there are no torpedo hatches in the middle.

    EDIT: You can see two circuit hatches in the bow above the white line Smile
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:04 pm


    About Husky SSBN version: if they build one it will be carrying way more than 8 SLBMs

    There are no reasons to go with anything less than 16, this thing is big enough to haul as many
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    GarryB

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:50 am

    I don't think they'll keep torpedos in the middle. Wiki article on Yasen suggests they'll move them back in the bow on Husky. Also in the picture there are no torpedo hatches in the middle.

    Well to be honest having the torpedo tubes up nearer the front would be better as flank arrays on each side of the nose would be limited in size and could be effected by the nose mounted spherical array... so putting torpedo tubes on either side of the UKSK launcher at the front would make sense just fine.

    That would free up the sides of the vessel for enormous flank arrays... or if needed... potentially more UKSK launchers for the SSGN version...

    About Husky SSBN version: if they build one it will be carrying way more than 8 SLBMs

    Why?

    Making it smaller and cheaper makes more sense than having all your eggs in one basket...

    Reducing the number of onboard missiles means more targets for the US to find and also it means once it starts firing it will take less time to launch all its missiles.

    From a practical point of view its MARV warheads can only engage targets on its flight path... in other words having 6 warheads on one missile means all six targets it is aimed at need to be all in the same direction from the boat that launches it... so having more boats means you can distribute the launch position to more places and hit more widely separated targets without having to split the launch into multiple volleys from different places...

    There are no reasons to go with anything less than 16, this thing is big enough to haul as many

    Why stop at 16? Why not put 128 missiles on a big super tanker sized barge? but it would be harder to hide and easier to find and engage... so which would be better... 8 Boreis, or 16 smaller newer Huskies?  But then of course it will actually be more like 32 Huskies because half will be SSBNs and the other half will be SSGNs or SSNs... which one is which?  Needle in a haystack of needles?
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:43 am

    Any rationale behind prioritizing flank sonars over bow spherical arrays? Using common sense, submarine should know what's in front of her as soon as possible, prior to everything else.

    Regarding ballistic missiles, you are right to say that spreading them accross several boats makes sense, that's why Borei A has 16 Bulavas and not 20. Nonetheless, there's also an argument in favor of larger ships. Americans put 24 Tridents on Ohio because of economies of scale. It's cheaper to build 14 larger boats than 15 small, because few extra meters of steel don't really add to the costs (120 m Yasen is twice more expensive than 170 m Borei). And Russia should be even more aware of this as their US counterparts, having 10 % of their defense budget (and falling).

    Their long and ragged coastline makes perfect sense for having large fleet of corvettes and frigates instead of fewer larger ships. But the same logic doesn't really apply to the submarines - that's why historically both superpowers had roughly the some number of submarines and missiles.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:43 am

    Any rationale behind prioritizing flank sonars over bow spherical arrays? Using common sense, submarine should know what's in front of her as soon as possible, prior to everything else.

    Regarding ballistic missiles, you are right to say that spreading them accross several boats makes sense, that's why Borei A has 16 Bulavas and not 20. Nonetheless, there's also an argument in favor of larger ships. Americans put 24 Tridents on Ohio because of economies of scale. It's cheaper to build 14 larger boats than 15 small, because few extra meters of steel don't really add to the costs (120 m Yasen is twice more expensive than 170 m Borei). And Russia should be even more aware of this than their US counterparts, having 10 % of their defense budget (and falling).

    Their long and ragged coastline makes perfect sense for having large fleet of corvettes and frigates instead of fewer larger ships. But the same logic doesn't really apply to the submarines - that's why historically both superpowers had roughly the some number of SSBNs.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:04 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Any rationale behind prioritizing flank sonars over bow spherical arrays? Using common sense, submarine should know what's in front of her as soon as possible, prior to everything else.


    Towed/flank sonars are the main tools to found other submarines, the spherical sonar good for communication / found noisy targets like ships.

    But by design the spherical/cylindrical sonar is not good to found low noise targets.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:11 am

    Flank arrays can be enormous... which gives them rather better long range performance than a spherical array for quiet targets especially at longer range.

    Regarding ballistic missiles, you are right to say that spreading them accross several boats makes sense, that's why Borei A has 16 Bulavas and not 20. Nonetheless, there's also an argument in favor of larger ships.

    But then the Akula class had only 20 missiles yet had 10 warheads per missile... meaning 200 targets per boat could be engaged, while the Trident with 24 missiles with only 8 warheads could only engage 192.

    Yes, I know the Akula is much bigger than the US boat, but that was so it could operate through the ice in the north pole, which is also why the conning tower on the Akula looks so different to other Soviet subs.

    I remember in the early 1990s there were even suggestions to make all new Russian subs carry two SLBMs, so every Russian sub would be a boomer... and also an SSN or SSGN... but I think they realised the complication that would create where an SSN chasing down a target then stops because it just received orders to launch its SLBMs... except its current location means its targets are out of range...

    The simple fact is that making all new Russian subs of one design (ie Husky) with minor variations in equipment and weapons makes sense and should help control costs without compromising performance too much...

    Having corvettes and frigates is nice but it is like having MANPADS and short range SAMs like TOR and OSA... with heavy coverage you will get rather good defence, but you will only ever be shooting down weapons and most of the time not shooting down weapons platforms... which means you will continue to shoot down missiles until you run out of missiles. If you could knock down their platforms there would be less missiles to deal with and they will actually pay a real penalty for their attack... which might deter the attack in the first place.
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    George1

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  George1 on Thu May 03, 2018 12:17 am

    Dmitry Kornev seems to thinks that the #Russia|n Navy's latest SSGN Haski (Husky) 's got the hump )



    https://militaryrussia.livejournal.com/416932.html

    https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/991433729431212033
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    George1

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  George1 on Thu May 03, 2018 12:19 am

    Also Husky page on militaryrussia.ru




    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-856.html
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 03, 2018 12:39 am

    George1 wrote:Dmitry Kornev seems to thinks that the #Russia|n Navy's latest SSGN Haski (Husky) 's got the hump )

    Did you check description? not sure how reliable the source was but there is info about option for navalized Iskander missile... perhaps reason for hump?
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    Isos

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  Isos on Thu May 03, 2018 12:44 am

    George1 wrote:Dmitry Kornev seems to thinks that the #Russia|n Navy's latest SSGN Haski (Husky) 's got the hump )



    https://militaryrussia.livejournal.com/416932.html

    https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/991433729431212033

    For the armement it is written that it can lunch zirkon, kalibr and Iskander !! A big news it means it could be used as a SSBN if iskander has nuk warehead. It would change dramatically the power of russian submarine force.
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    George1

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  George1 on Thu May 03, 2018 12:45 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    George1 wrote:Dmitry Kornev seems to thinks that the #Russia|n Navy's latest SSGN Haski (Husky) 's got the hump )

    Did you check description? not sure how reliable the source was but  there is info about  option for  navalized Iskander missile... perhaps reason for hump?

    i just put the news as i see it, and the source. It is on each person's individual judgement then
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    GarryB

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 03, 2018 3:58 am

    A naval Iskander would have no range limits and could be adapted to 1,000-1,500km range if needed as the INF treaty does not apply to air or sea launched weapons... the US made sure of that.

    To be honest, new weapons with scramjet propulsion look to have rather more growth potential... but we will see.

    What it does suggest is that the UKSK.... or universal launcher... is becoming more universal...

    Remember not every ship needs 2,500km range cruise missiles, and for some short range tactical missiles with 400kg+ warheads moving at very high speeds can be just the ticket...
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: 5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 03, 2018 10:58 am

    GarryB wrote:

    To be honest, new weapons with scramjet propulsion look to have rather more growth potential... but we will see.

    What it does suggest is that the UKSK.... or universal launcher... is becoming more universal...

    Remember not every ship needs 2,500km range cruise missiles, and for some short range tactical missiles with 400kg+ warheads moving at very high speeds can be just the ticket...


    They said Iskander. My interpretation was Iskander rocket nor cruise missile (otherwise why to specify calibers and iskanders apart? ) . Me wonders why ballistic rocket on ship? kind of stealth sub Dongfeng-21 ?


    The thing thet worries me is diameter 0,95 /iskander vs. 0,7 Onix


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