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    Talking bollocks thread #2

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    southpark

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    Post  southpark on Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:36 pm

    @Garry B

    Too long shit and same old circle jerking....did not see a single view of reality in your comments other than a feminist like rant. West accusing Russia is nothing new, it has been going on forever. They never acknowledged it as a equal power and if it causes you anxiety then take a xanax and calm down. Not sure if Russia needs a certification from West either...so they don't care either.

    Putin never really trusted West and rightfully so, why would anyone aware of the history do that? He was merely buying time to prepare for a fight one day in the future and the Ukraine fiasco made the gloves come off on both sides and with all sorts of sanctions and economic war, he has nothing to lose to formulate a fully independent course. All superpowers generally lose their relevance due to internal factors than an external enemy. I never argued about it but you are "special needs" analyst and assume things out of nothing and no one ever said and pull them into your own fantasy frame of reference hanging in vacuum. You sound like someone that was never comfortable in solving an equation with more than two roots or limited yourself with things that are scalars because understanding vectors and multi dimensional concepts are too fucking hard for you. So most fields like mathematics, physics and economics do not seem to be very suitable for you...forget about social ones as they are equally if not more complex. But I will give you this, you do your moderator job pretty admirably in general and also you fill the self centered and unobjective feminist role pretty well in this forum too.

    Respond beyond 2 to 3 posts to you feels like I will be unnecessarily killing my gray matter and hence this is for me on this topic.
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    Post  nero on Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:09 pm

    southpark wrote:Tech really does not matter when strategy is poor....always on defensive and fighting wars on your soil is not something to be proud off excessively....a skilled craftsmen can use basic tools and yet make something useful and desirable and a poorly skilled one having greatest stuff can't make shit...US pilots vs Russian pilot dog fight can go either way mostly based on the skill of the each pilot...F-35 is not in the same class vs Su-35 or even Su-30 as it will use different tactics and designed to meet different requirements.

    This is not some kind of number game, where you add up the benefits and lacks and then compare against peer opponents. The F-35 has several problems that will potentially prevent it from even being able to fly against peer opponents.

    Several key requirements for the F-35 to meet have been pushed back for years. Many of which it has not reached even now, whilst the airframe is already in serial production. What happens if there is a problem with the airframe itself? It is already a very tight pack, it would require a redesign of some sorts and the entire line built up to today would become useless.

    You also need to remember, that "5th generation" used to include super cruise as a requirement... until it was clear that the F-35 was not going to have it and the "requirement" was dropped.

    The DOT&E report found that, and I quote:


    Joint Program Office has been re-categorizing failure incidents to make the plane look more reliable than it actually is

    DOT&E found that the program achieved 61 percent of planned flight hours and that the average rate of availability was as low as 28 percent for the F-35A and 33 percent for the F-35B.

    This report was published in 2015. The rates for F-35B are even lower now, nearing less than 10%.

    Compare that to the availability of Su-24's, Su-30's and Su-34's during the campaign in Syria. Less than 20 planes managed to continue daily sorties. At the high of the campaign the sortie amount reached ~100-150 a day. Pentagon simply did not believe this was true.

    Also note, that this is not some random people on the interwebs. This is a report from the Pentagon.

    southpark wrote:It is built with a different strategical warfare and will operate in mixed fleets....most of the F-35's capabilities are still highly classified and even the partners are not getting to know everything.

    It's 'mixed fleet' is going to be comprised of what, exactly? 'The F-35 was developed to replace most US fighter jets with variants of one design common to all branches of the military'.

    The F-22? All of it's production lines are closed and will remain closed, unless the Pentagon can churn out another 50-60 billion USD to both reopen the plans and to continue production. This means that all spare parts the US currently has is what it'll have to work with. Considering the did not manage to fly out several F-22's away from a tornado...

    Even in Syria, the plane would only be able to fly one sortie every week, or two every month. This is not a plane that can be reliably used by any branch of the military. Frankly, it is a miracle that can be attributed to US engineers that it flies at all. As even a platform that has been in service since ~2005 still has critical issues, such as pilot asphyxiation.

    The program will never be canceled. As the consequences of it would be too dire.

    There's a reason why they're looking at other options... such as an upgraded F-15.

    There are also other problems associated with the program:


    • Italy has already cut orders from 131 to 90 air-frames and is currently evaluating to cut down to 24.
    • Turkey has all but left the program in it's entirety. If they decide so, they can prevent the building of any F-35's for up to a year, as the parts it builds would have to be replaced.
    • Netherlands cut orders from 85 to 37.
    • Canada is still on the fence about buying it's intended order of 65 F-35's.
    • Denmark considered to buy 48 F-35's, though cut it's order to 27.
    • Singapore planned 100 aircraft and cut down to 12, then to 4.

      And so on and so on... The procurement information and news is fairly well written up pretty much anywhere and anyone can take a peek. The reason why these countries cut down on orders is because the price ended up being much higher then expected. Additionally, the first countries to place orders and buy aircraft will pay significantly more than countries that would do this further along the line. That caused many countries to buy in limited numbers, hoping someone else would take up the bill...

      ... that someone else was the US taxpayer with them buying the bulk of the aircraft. If it does turn out, that it has issues that upgrades cannot fix. Then it is simply a very expensive piece of metal.



    Last edited by nero on Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  southpark on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:01 pm

    nero wrote:
    This is not some kind of number game, where you add up the benefits and lacks and then compare against peer opponents. The F-35 has several problems that will potentially prevent it from even being able to fly against peer opponents.
    Problems will be solved, it is more operational now. You talk like US never built planes or had problems....no practical significance to your comment. Yes, the whole thing could have been handed differently but you seem to think like it is put together with plastic. As I said, Russia has nothing to fear with any of the West's stuff because they are all failures as per you...

    Several key requirements for the F-35 to meet have been pushed back for years. Many of which it has not reached even now, whilst the airframe is already in serial production. What happens if there is a problem with the airframe itself? It is already a very tight pack, it would require a redesign of some sorts and the entire line built up to today would become useless.

    huh...you think all engineers and mangers in LM are stupid....some of you are equally arrogant as some of our idiots? Practical compromises are always made as long as they do not impact core mission parameters....it is like I am talking to a kid and no other country makes compromises I guess(rolling eyes)....PAKFA is 5th gen but still no 5th gen engine but I guess we all can trust that the promised engine is what they say it is without waiting for evidence....no need to accumulate flying hours but the Russians are fucking unicorns...

    You also need to remember, that "5th generation" used to include super cruise as a requirement... until it was clear that the F-35 was not going to have it and the "requirement" was dropped. Dude, engines can be substituted in future and upgraded...it is derived from F-119 which is super cruise capable. This fighter is to replace the F-16's as the work horse and it is ok without the super cruise

    The DOT&E report found that, and I quote:

    Joint Program Office has been re-categorizing failure incidents to make the plane look more reliable than it actually is

    DOT&E found that the program achieved 61 percent of planned flight hours and that the average rate of availability was as low as 28 percent for the F-35A and 33 percent for the F-35B.

    This report was published in 2015. The rates for F-35B are even lower now, nearing less than 10%.

    Who said there are no problems, it is the idea that they wont be resolved over time is kinda stupid....it is software heavy which means it is going to have heavy bugs but just like most successful platforms if it has solid design objectives then problems will be resolved albeit at cost....neither you nor I know the answers but I am willing to wait and some of you are speaking too much without waiting for time. You want me to list the problems Russian projects has?


    Compare that to the availability of Su-24's, Su-30's and Su-34's during the campaign in Syria. Less than 20 planes managed to continue daily sorties. At the high of the campaign the sortie amount reached ~100-150 a day. Pentagon simply did not believe this was true.

    Talk to me when the Russian's fly as many sorties as the US does across the globe...none of those are new gen planes as they are based on established platforms....they have seen quite a few crashes themselves from helos to fighters. These machines are complex...


    It's 'mixed fleet' is going to be comprised of what, exactly? 'The F-35 was developed to replace most US fighter jets with variants of one design common to all branches of the military'.
    With Rafale's, Tornados, Typhoons, F-16's and so on....are or you thinking that Su-30's and 35's will fly over the CONUS to fight with us? I guess on paper Russian's have defeated every other fucking plane that was ever made by the west in your brain....F-22's were supposed to be complementing F-35's but other 4++ are equally good planes....I for one am glad to see upgrades to 15's to keep up with opponents....better missiles and engines...also talk to me when Russia gets its planes in numbers to counter the west across the globe. It is a defensive power and its force is structured like that and also there will not be a direct confrontation...so having a bit of superiority in few areas on either side means nothing practically....5th gen is more like keeping up the tech base and not lag behind each other too much. You will not see them in great numbers till mid century...


    The F-22? All of it's production lines are closed and will remain closed, unless the Pentagon can churn out another 50-60 billion USD to both reopen the plans and to continue production. This means that all spare parts the US currently has is what it'll have to work with. Considering the did not manage to fly out several F-22's away from a tornado...
    They might if they see a critical need....we have printing press remember?


    Even in Syria, the plane would only be able to fly one sortie every week, or two every month. This is not a plane that can be reliably used by any branch of the military. Frankly, it is a miracle that can be attributed to US engineers that it flies at all. As even a platform that has been in service since ~2005 still has critical issues, such as pilot asphyxiation.
    You talk as if you know all the details....use your brain when you read something....why is there a need for F-22 in syria operationally....they may wanted to test few things is my guess....you wont see their wide deployment outside the US a whole lot...first no numbers and second no need where it adds advantage.

    The program will never be canceled. As the consequences of it would be too dire.
    Only two reasonable outcomes....either the platform will stabilize and becomes economical overtime or it turned out to be disaster but only time will till....

    There's a reason why they're looking at other options... such as an upgraded F-15.
    Considering our walet is not as big as we think it is....someone is wising up even if causal factors are different.
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    Post  dino00 on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:23 pm

    Topic: Russian Space Program:News & Discussion # 2

    You are insulting an moderator to get banned, and show in others forums that this firum is a dictatorship clown
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    Post  southpark on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:33 pm

    dino00 wrote:Topic: Russian Space Program:News & Discussion # 2

    You are insulting an moderator to get banned, and show in others forums that this firum is a dictatorship clown

    People have commented/compared much worse than me on this forum and I reciprocated based on his view of the world in good vs bad and moral vs ethical e.t.c as we are commenting on defence related stuff and not some religion forum to bring peace to the world that none of us has a say. I already said he is a superpower on this forum and can take action if I acted out of line. I can't avoid snowflakes in real world but if this is another snowflake forum then I wont oppose if he bans me. Fyi...this is the first one that I commented in my life and I am still debating if I should have joined or not. I try not to identify myself on the net more than necessary. So you are assuming I am on some other forum...thanks for concern though

    Also he wears two hats, as an active poster and a moderator. Some intersection is human but if he does his job fairly then he can't get bothered based on post responses. Anyway I said he does his moderator job admirably, I will have no problem accepting his decision either way. I will respect it.


    Last edited by southpark on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  dino00 on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:49 pm

    southpark wrote:
    dino00 wrote:Topic: Russian Space Program:News & Discussion # 2

    You are insulting an moderator to get banned, and show in others forums that this firum is a dictatorship clown

    People have commented/compared much worse than me on this forum and I reciprocated based on his view of the world in good vs bad and moral vs ethical e.t.c as we are commenting on defence related stuff and not some religion forum to bring peace to the world that none of us has a say. I already said he is a superpower on this forum and can take action if I acted out of line. I can't avoid snowflakes in real world but if this is another snowflake forum then I wont oppose if he bans me. Fyi...this is the first one that I commented in my life and I am still debating if I should have joined or not. I try not to identify myself on the net more than necessary. So you are assuming I am on some other forum...thanks for concern though

    He won't ban...I think... but I think you are trying, end of Off Topic so he won't ban me👼
    Sorry Garry stay cool pirat
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    Post  nero on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:07 pm

    southpark wrote:[...]
    Everything you said is conjecture.
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    Post  southpark on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:10 pm

    nero wrote:
    southpark wrote:[...]
    Everything you said is conjecture.

    As opposed to real operational plans that you have from the joint chiefs or general staff?

    Ofcourse it is, time will tell how close we are to our conjectures.
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    Post  nero on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:18 pm

    southpark wrote:As opposed to real operational plans that you have from the joint chiefs or general staff?

    DOT&E is a report made by the Pentagon. The report and several reports afterwards is where I source all of my information from.

    You state your opinion. As long as you understand this fact, it is fine. Otherwise you are simply living in la-la land.

    I don't see the point in continuing this discussion. Hopefully you will start reading. Have fun.

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    Post  southpark on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:28 pm

    nero wrote:
    southpark wrote:As opposed to real operational plans that you have from the joint chiefs or general staff?

    DOT&E is a report made by the Pentagon. The report and several reports afterwards is where I source all of my information from.

    You state your opinion. As long as you understand this fact, it is fine. Otherwise you are simply living in la-la land.

    I don't see the point in continuing this discussion. Hopefully you will start reading. Have fun.


    I did not expect the report to put it in high flying colors when you have trillion and half fuck up and making decisions that are less than optimal like they are designing a consumer gizmo. But having worked for some of the biggest companies on the planet...I can tell you that companies like Boeing, LM and just about anyone do no start with inferior product intentionally...just like any other marketing in the US they try to sell what is not necessary and someone in DC or Pentagon probably bought into that crap and profited...I doubt if the entire platform is designed to be inferior....companies do not go for reputation loss like that and yes even the big ones as it is their cash cow. There is not much not to like about F-35 once the problems are rooted out and it becomes economical over time. Problems bring innovation and that's one possibility....
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    Post  southpark on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:55 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    dino00 wrote:Borisov said that the US space program depends on Russian RD-180 engines....


    lol1lol1lol1

    This is pure comedy gold right here.

    Borisov has either been hanging out with Trampoline Man too much or has been really hitting the cristal meth hard (in light of this statement probably both)


    Lol, whatever rocks his boat I guess. That is like saying entire Russian navy was dependent on Ukrainian engines...for Ukrainians air heads may be it is true certainly the Russians don't give a fuck.
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:12 pm

    And again another PAK-FA thread where talk is more about F-35 Rolling Eyes
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    Post  southpark on Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:17 pm

    LMFS wrote:And again another PAK-FA thread where talk is more about F-35 Rolling Eyes

    I will accept blame for my contribution to off topic but F-35 was compared in a way that did not make sense to me as if battles are fought without tactics and strategy. This is the last post as far as that topic goes from my side. Plus kinda shitty weather and plenty of home time today to comment.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:33 am

    Problems will be solved, it is more operational now. You talk like US never built planes or had problems....no practical significance to your comment. Yes, the whole thing could have been handed differently but you seem to think like it is put together with plastic. As I said, Russia has nothing to fear with any of the West's stuff because they are all failures as per you...

    The point you seem to enjoy ignoring is that the problems are not being fixed, problems are denied... it is a super plane and they just need to keep making them and they will win... no discussion about making a plane programme too big to fail and the consequences where it is so big you can't even criticise it or question it at all... otherwise there will be tantrums and someone is going home...

    huh...you think all engineers and mangers in LM are stupid....some of you are equally arrogant as some of our idiots?

    Not Stupid... criminally incompetent... clearly when the engineers are saying we might be able to do that, their managers are telling the customer they definitely can do that... it is just going to take a little more time and money...

    Practical compromises are always made as long as they do not impact core mission parameters....it is like I am talking to a kid and no other country makes compromises I guess(rolling eyes).

    They signed off on building the damn thing... they must have tested parts to make sure they work... that freaken oxygen system is suffocating US pilots in three different aircraft types.... F-22, F-18, and F-35... how is that not fixed yet?

    Oxygen systems for air crew are basic important stuff... clearly they are trying to be too damn fancy... it is probably a software problem... are they going to blame Russian hackers?

    .PAKFA is 5th gen but still no 5th gen engine but I guess we all can trust that the promised engine is what they say it is without waiting for evidence....no need to accumulate flying hours but the Russians are fucking unicorns...

    Now comes the shit... with the current engine the PAK FA can supercruise... the F-35 cannot. If the PAK FA with its current engine is not 5th gen then the F-35 is not either...

    Who said there are no problems, it is the idea that they wont be resolved over time is kinda stupid....it is software heavy which means it is going to have heavy bugs but just like most successful platforms if it has solid design objectives then problems will be resolved albeit at cost..

    What solid design objectives?

    It is a strike plane with AAMs... if it is not stealthy enough to operate near an S-400 system then it is not stealthy enough to get the job done... it might as well be an F-16, which is not stealthy but is faster, more manouverable, better armed and has better range and is MUCH MUCH cheaper to buy and MUCH MUCH cheaper to operate.

    They might if they see a critical need....we have printing press remember?

    Yeah, that is not going to keep working forever...

    Only two reasonable outcomes....either the platform will stabilize and becomes economical overtime or it turned out to be disaster but only time will till....

    Hahahahaha... you mean they will reduce the purchase price and ramp up the spares and supports contract prices to recover the money and make even more profit...

    DC or Pentagon probably bought into that crap and profited...I doubt if the entire platform is designed to be inferior....companies do not go for reputation loss like that and yes even the big ones as it is their cash cow.

    Hehehehe... the US didn't take Apaches in to Kosovo because they would have been massacred... US MIC does not need to worry about reputation because the US never fights fair and if it looks like they will get their asses handed to them they change the rules... like in Desert Storm... don't want Iraqi T-72s shooting up Abrams tanks with their training ammo... only fight at night after pounding them with air power and smashing up any comms they might have had...

    And again another PAK-FA thread where talk is more about F-35

    Will weed the garden now...

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:14 pm

    Too long shit and same old circle jerking....did not see a single view of reality in your comments other than a feminist like rant.

    Yeah, I understand too much common sense in one post can be confusing and upsetting for someone used to the crap you normally ingest.

    West accusing Russia is nothing new, it has been going on forever.

    The fact that it does not work does not seem to matter to them... it is why Russia needs to turn away from Europe and find its own way... set its own goals find its own trade partners and develop itself and its new allies.

    They never acknowledged it as a equal power and if it causes you anxiety then take a xanax and calm down.

    Couldn't care less what the west says... it has no credibility in my eyes... and taking pills is an American thing too... not for me thanks.

    He was merely buying time to prepare for a fight one day in the future and the Ukraine fiasco made the gloves come off on both sides and with all sorts of sanctions and economic war, he has nothing to lose to formulate a fully independent course.

    The Ukraine situation was created by the US, and if that wasn't good enough they would have cooked up something else so they could do it anyway.

    I think it is funny because it is the west pushing Russia away... it is not often a drug peddler refuses to sell to someone in case they become a junkie... the thing is that they thought they were already hooked and when they cut them off there was a little pain but not nearly as much as the drug dealer thought their would be and they are not desperate for another hit like they thought they would be, so they are cutting them off from Asprin now... and apart from getting all their dealer friends to black ball them they can't do much more... how scared are they?

    All superpowers generally lose their relevance due to internal factors than an external enemy.

    Those in power are trying to fight their way out of it by making Russia and China the enemy... most superpowers need external enemies for unity and strength and to commit awful crimes against humanity... look at what hitler did.

    You sound like someone that was never comfortable in solving an equation with more than two roots

    I don't see what my sex life has to do with this...

    be very suitable for you...forget about social ones as they are equally if not more complex. But I will give you this, you do your moderator job pretty admirably in general and also you fill the self centered and unobjective feminist role pretty well in this forum too.

    Yeah, we have a few arrogant cocky dicks here, but one more would be OK I suppose.

    BTW I'd give my left penis to be a feminist... but I would want them to spell it Femenist... just to put the men back in Woman where it belongs.... HAHAHAHA.

    Respond beyond 2 to 3 posts to you feels like I will be unnecessarily killing my gray matter and hence this is for me on this topic.

    Well it is totally off topic so it is going to the talking bollocks section anyway...

    this is the first one that I commented in my life and I am still debating if I should have joined or not. I try not to identify myself on the net more than necessary.

    It is OK Donald Trump, your secret is safe with us... BTW don't fuck America up too bad... they are a pain in the arse but I don't like to see real people suffer when their elite are such assholes so openly.

    Also he wears two hats, as an active poster and a moderator. Some intersection is human but if he does his job fairly then he can't get bothered based on post responses. Anyway I said he does his moderator job admirably, I will have no problem accepting his decision either way. I will respect it.

    Hahhahaha... if I chose to ban you you would have no option but to accept it... when you are banned you can't post here any more... not even private messages... and I normally don't bother reading other forums so it would be tricky for you to tell me how you feel... other than diverting that carrier group going to Venezuela to New Zealand instead, or pulling a Julian Assange on me or something... Smile

    Sorry Garry stay cool

    No worries mate... the french guy doens't bother me, why would this american?

    This is pure comedy gold right here.

    Borisov has either been hanging out with Trampoline Man too much or has been really hitting the cristal meth hard (in light of this statement probably both)

    He is basically right... the US wont sanction the sale of Russian engines to the US because they need them. McCain tried to have them banned several times ages ago but was told they could not replace them so banning them was not an option... and it still is not an option.

    Lol, whatever rocks his boat I guess. That is like saying entire Russian navy was dependent on Ukrainian engines...for Ukrainians air heads may be it is true certainly the Russians don't give a fuck.

    No, that is the other way around... the Ukraine refusing to supply ship engines that Russia needed would be Russia refusing to sell rocket engines to the US, and that is not what he is talking about...

    Anyway, even if the US did stop buying Russian engines, I am sure they could sell them to China or North Korea or Iran or India... hell there would be quite a few countries that would happily buy them if they got an offer.
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    Post  kvs on Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:24 pm

    We all know that the Su-57 will never be 5th gen because it as protruding rivets and circular thrust vectoring nozzles. Who needs
    jet fighter functionality when hiding from 1950s radars is the raison d'etre of jets in the minds of stealth fanbois.

    These fanbois need to grow a brain. Full focus on stealth requires a drone that has the shape of the one recently demonstrated
    by Sukhoi. Even in that case we are dealing with a surprise "attack" scenario and circular jet thrust ports do not matter since
    they do not face the radar net. No stealth aircraft can spend hours flying around willy nilly in enemy territory. It will be
    fully probed by radar installations in a rather short period of time. Stealth and surprise attack are joined at the hip and thus
    stealth is a transient utility feature.
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:57 pm

    BTW stealth is not a bonus. It always comes with major trade offs in other areas.

    Su-57 is designed to be stealthy but not in a way that would impede its functionality. And it has an intial price tag of 1/6 of F-22.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:22 am

    Design is a trade off.

    Take the T-34. Very early on they developed a new 57mm high velocity gun for anti tank use and they put some on T-34s as a test case.

    In terms of anti armour performance it was excellent, but its HE shell was rather ordinary so they kept using the 76.2mm gun but with a longer barrel.

    When the Tiger and Panther were introduced they looked at the 57mm gun again, but went with the 85mm gun that had slightly less penetration at combat ranges but had a much more powerful and effective HE round so it was selected instead.

    This is a design choice... to be honest I am surprised they didn't build a Marder III type anti tank vehicle but with a 57mm gun... they could have built it in early 1942 on the basis of T-26 chassis that were not much use any more... all they needed was a good APHE shell for it to be very effective against armour or light fortifications... but ultimately its lack of HE power and soon its penetration performance was not good enough anyway so larger calibre 85mm and 100mm and ultimately 122mm guns were developed.

    On paper it was an excellent gun for its time, but the window where it would be useful was short... and hampered by the lack of production capacity in that calibre...

    The anti aircraft 57mm calibre was rather more successful and has been revived today with new ammo options.

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