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    Talking bollocks thread #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:09 am

    Well, if you think about it in a non emotional manner then you have to question whether India needs 5th gen yet and what could they really contribute in development?

    Well if the US is going to stoke an anti China rivalry between India and China then it is going to have to properly arm its new minion for the fight and China has 5th gen fighters and Su-35s and S-400 missiles, so which 4th gen US fighters are going to make the cut?

    India is not really losing anything by not having 5th gen yet...for god's sake they do not have a decent IADS for a country that big and surrounded by unfriendly neighbors. So someone is atleast thinking about priorities in their government....

    Don't be so harsh... what NATO country has an IADS? ...except on their ships?

    Russia was/is no angel either....they do not have the means to go on offense but they did get stronger.

    So Russia is an angel if it remains weak and economically crippled?

    Wonder why they don't prefer your flavour Kool Aide...

    What you say is just contradict to Russian interests to me.

    Well he is right in the sense that the FGFA programme was enormously beneficial to India... what other country gets the chance to not just buy 5th gen fighter technology, but also influence it at the design level... for less than the price of 126 Rafale fighters...

    Russia was prepared to make such an offer to India... such an offer is unlikely to have been made to any other customer...

    The added value would have been a bit more money, but also the problems of adapting the design to suit a foreign country with different needs and wants... I suspect the Indians would have demanded better stealth even though it would greatly increase the development and production and operational costs, while still not resulting in an invisible aircraft...

    The Su-57MKI will be a separate export model... just like the Su-30MKI is different from the Su-35...

    There will be less secret Russian stuff and more likely French and Israeli stuff fitted, which will take time...

    Not worth it especially if the Indians are not ready to absorb the technologies and have no base to build on it. I think Indians made the correct decision but they do that in their style whether you like it or not and I do not understand the drama every time they make a deal to step back. As Garry said two opposing groups?

    Their rationale is a bit illogical... I mean wanting different sources for products makes sense to make them sanction proof, but when it means choosing Rafales when you wanted M2ks but they refused to sell you what you wanted and demanded you buy the newer model even though you wanted to make the old model, and they wont let you make the new one... and it is still going to cost more than double the value of the programme specs you issued.

    Russia has never been an unreliable source... sometimes there have been issues with spares and support, but if you have any brains you include that stuff in the purchase to get a good rate... heaven knows they like to negotiate... it is not something they avoid.

    The one who thinks the world is run fairly by any man is naive in my opinion (you can look around in places you interact)....whoever goes to the top removes the ladder...if you know what I mean. I just hope we go for longer term strategy and place our chips accordingly. We need someone like Eisenhower.

    Yeah... heard the "we are bad, but imagine of the Russians were in charge... or China, or whatever... which presumes they actually want to be in charge.

    Putin has said many times that the US is a big and powerful country... we just want you to leave us alone...

    Americas behaviour has not changed... Oblama was putting sanctions on countries and the bullying is not new... Trump just doesn't see the need to do it behind closed doors.

    No matter who wins the next US election it will continue but if someone other than trump gets it it will just go behind closed doors.
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    Post  southpark on Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:37 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Well if the US is going to stoke an anti China rivalry between India and China then it is going to have to properly arm its new minion for the fight and China has 5th gen fighters and Su-35s and S-400 missiles, so which 4th gen US fighters are going to make the cut?


    I already stated my opinion in another thread or this one that India does not have a record of being someone's puppet or bitch as you put it. US had/has minimum leverage on them, what can US do, put sanctions on them? They are used to hard living and pretty self sufficient in basic things....they will turn to Russia more if we do that. India will not fight China because of US goals but they have other more natural reasons that could take place....their own stupidity, Chinese aggression in lock step with Pakistan and when that happens US may step in if its allowed in. I think you are misinterpreting what I tried to say. It is clear India can not counter China economically or militarily but they have nuclear weapons if its a survival war. China is a world power now and probably will not be as rash either but who knows what China will do in war with Pakistan.


    Don't be so harsh... what NATO country has an IADS?  ...except on their ships?

    Again India has active unfriendly neighbors, recent incident proves it. It needs an IADS. Not sure why you are comparing it with Nato. Russia never attacked their neighbors in recent history. They went for S-400's, so my point stands. They should have purchased it way back with the kind of threats they face. Pantsirs, Buks and so on. DRDO overpromises and never delivers....I may be harsh.

    Russia was/is no angel either....they do not have the means to go on offense but they did get stronger.
    So Russia is an angel if it remains weak and economically crippled?

    Wonder why they don't prefer your flavour Kool Aide...

    Again, you are choosing to interpret in your own way....all big powers make deals at the detriment of others. Russia is no exception in that aspect. If not why do they have issues with Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO....Central Asia being their underbelly? What is that....I hope you take my point in that context.

    What you say is just contradict to Russian interests to me.

    Well he is right in the sense that the FGFA programme was enormously beneficial to India... what other country gets the chance to not just buy 5th gen fighter technology, but also influence it at the design level... for less than the price of 126 Rafale fighters...

    Russia was prepared to make such an offer to India... such an offer is unlikely to have been made to any other customer...

    The added value would have been a bit more money, but also the problems of adapting the design to suit a foreign country with different needs and wants... I suspect the Indians would have demanded better stealth even though it would greatly increase the development and production and operational costs, while still not resulting in an invisible aircraft...

    In theory, Indians have no track record of undertaking a project at that level....I will concede their Arihant and the new aircraft carrier class but we will need to wait for details. They have talented people but system is very difficult and filters out the merit. India will eventually pay Russians for tech transfer and they will get it. By that time their private sector might build decent base...I would not trust their DRDO...ISRO is credible though.


    Their rationale is a bit illogical... I mean wanting different sources for products makes sense to make them sanction proof, but when it means choosing Rafales when you wanted M2ks but they refused to sell you what you wanted and demanded you buy the newer model even though you wanted to make the old model, and they wont let you make the new one... and it is still going to cost more than double the value of the programme specs you issued.

    Russia has never been an unreliable source... sometimes there have been issues with spares and support, but if you have any brains you include that stuff in the purchase to get a good rate... heaven knows they like to negotiate... it is not something they avoid.

    Well, tbh we do not know all the details and where the Russian planes fall short in the Indian war planning. Sukhoi's may be overkill for some missions? They really like their Mirages and want to have couple of squadrons of Rafale's....they are expensive but beggers can't be choosers....when it comes to defense, best would be to be self sufficient especially for India size country. They have extensive partnership with Russia (nuke subs, aircraft, AD systems, carrier e.t.c), I am not sure why you think they should put all eggs in one basket....costs aside French equipment is decent and so is American especially F-16's.



    Yeah... heard the "we are bad, but imagine of the Russians were in charge... or China, or whatever... which presumes they actually want to be in charge.

    Putin has said many times that the US is a big and powerful country... we just want you to leave us alone...

    Americas behaviour has not changed... Oblama was putting sanctions on countries and the bullying is not new... Trump just doesn't see the need to do it behind closed doors.

    No matter who wins the next US election it will continue but if someone other than trump gets it it will just go behind closed doors.

    I do not disagree, that is the reason I said we need Eisenhower. My words had a general context to it that no one vacates their top spot easily neither individuals nor countries. You seem to have anti American bias in general...I can understand issue based opinion but you may be over interpreting.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:27 am

    Just stating some facts:
    - India's contribution was to FGFA and was only around ~$250M. FFGA was cancelled so money is sent back or put towards India's other purchases. So India had zero contribution to PAK FA
    - India doesn't know shit about such equipment. This is obvious even with the development of Tejas which is an Indian airframe with American, French and Israeli parts.  Over expensive jet with no real future.
    - US equipment is only good because they have experienced pilots and good planning before fighting an enemy with very little means of self defense.  Iraq was shown as huge success in early days because Iraq only had available 40K troops since rest either defected, flee or whatever. In this case, helicopters were used to take out long range AD systems as they flew low and avoided radar. After AD was gone, planes flew with little to no problems as Iraq had no means of countering them.  In reality though, they are no better than most other jets made by anyone else. Just very expensive and lots of trinkets that make it expensive but no much better.  Indians are just gullible people and do indeed like shiney new toys.  If you want to see evidence of such, just go to the country and see even their decked out trucks lol
    - Doesn't matter if India gets stealth jets or not, they will still be shot down because of poor planning plus once they get them, Pakistan will obtain newer radar systems from China to be able to detect the jets, plus use other detection systems like AWACS and satellite radar. Those will be spotted as soon as they take off from the airbases and Pakistan will intercept them. I agree with Medo in that recent Indian attack was very poorly executed. And they had advanced detection and air to ground missiles from Israel.....
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    Post  southpark on Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:49 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Just stating some facts:
    - India's contribution was to FGFA and was only around ~$250M. FFGA was cancelled so money is sent back or put towards India's other purchases. So India had zero contribution to PAK FA
    - India doesn't know shit about such equipment. This is obvious even with the development of Tejas which is an Indian airframe with American, French and Israeli parts.  Over expensive jet with no real future.

    Agreed, when their private sector like TATA catches up then it may be a different story. No trust in their gov defense orgs.

    - US equipment is only good because they have experienced pilots and good planning before fighting an enemy with very little means of self defense.  Iraq was shown as huge success in early days because Iraq only had available 40K troops since rest either defected, flee or whatever. In this case, helicopters were used to take out long range AD systems as they flew low and avoided radar. After AD was gone, planes flew with little to no problems as Iraq had no means of countering them.  In reality though, they are no better than most other jets made by anyone else. Just very expensive and lots of trinkets that make it expensive but no much better.  Indians are just gullible people and do indeed like shiney new toys.  If you want to see evidence of such, just go to the country and see even their decked out trucks lol

    That is a pretty broad claim....American ships, subs and planes are second to nothing in the hands of capable war planners. F-16's would be a good choice vs Pakistan. You sound like US equipment is shit...no evidence to support that, ofcourse some of it is not that great. We have more offensive strategy vs Russia, so our equipment evolved differently. Pakistan uses F-16's against India's Russian planes.
    [/quote]

    - Doesn't matter if India gets stealth jets or not, they will still be shot down because of poor planning plus once they get them, Pakistan will obtain newer radar systems from China to be able to detect the jets, plus use other detection systems like AWACS and satellite radar.  Those will be spotted as soon as they take off from the airbases and Pakistan will intercept them.  I agree with Medo in that recent Indian attack was very poorly executed. And they had advanced detection and air to ground missiles from Israel.....

    It is not that simple Mike, the flaw I see in India's approach is that they really need to go out with full offense surprize attack strategy and totally overwhelm and also enhance their intelligence. Defensive strategy will not work when your bases are in so close proximity, in all the wars Pakistan attacked first and took out planes on the runway....but India overpowered them eventually and rules the skies. Pakistan will just have that initial advantage as long as India adopts defensive strategy, it is choice of strategy in my opinion
    I also suspect Indian operations are leaky, Pakistan probably knows ahead of time all the war plans. I do not like half-hearted and meaningless operation objectives like India picked in the last operation....similar to US intervention in Syria....very hard to reason. When they did they should have gone all ready including navy on standby and ready to take out pakistani airfields if it escalated. They did send a message I think that India will take risks and Pakistan is evidently scared to this day...disappointing thing is that it is embarassing for India to be compared against Pakistan when it should aim for China more or less. So you are correct that india needs to introspect but it is a dysfunctional democracy...
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:46 am

    It is clear India can not counter China economically or militarily but they have nuclear weapons if its a survival war. China is a world power now and probably will not be as rash either but who knows what China will do in war with Pakistan.

    The US goal seems to be if not out right war, at least to pit India and China against each other and try to stir trouble so they can sit back and watch two potential rivals destroy each other...

    Again India has active unfriendly neighbors, recent incident proves it. It needs an IADS. Not sure why you are comparing it with Nato.

    NATO is actively poking the bear... and spends tens of billions every year on defence but they don't have any organised IADS... any you clearly think India is backward and primitive... sanction proof I believe... yet India should have better technology than NATO?

    Pakistan and China combined really don't have a super strong air attack capacity... certainly nothing like NATO.

    Or for NATO... the Bear it keeps poking...

    Russia never attacked their neighbors in recent history.

    Russia is heavily sanctioned by the US and the EU for their aggression everywhere...

    They went for S-400's, so my point stands. They should have purchased it way back with the kind of threats they face. Pantsirs, Buks and so on. DRDO overpromises and never delivers....I may be harsh.

    Why would they not buy S-400s? It is a very capable system.... why does the US and UK rely on fighter aircraft to provide air control instead of a proper IADS?

    There actually are not that many countries on the planet that have proper national IADS, and even then they are not perfect.

    Again, you are choosing to interpret in your own way....all big powers make deals at the detriment of others. Russia is no exception in that aspect. If not why do they have issues with Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO....Central Asia being their underbelly? What is that....I hope you take my point in that context.

    I find it hilarious that your interpretation of Russian aggression is them not being happy at their neighbours joining a US led anti Russian military coalition called NATO. Look at the US reaction to a few oil deals between Russia and China with Venezuela... they have repeatedly tried to overthrow the democratically elected government like they did in the Ukraine.... but Russia is the bad guy?

    You are right... this does need to be moved to the talking bollocks thread...

    Well, tbh we do not know all the details and where the Russian planes fall short in the Indian war planning. Sukhoi's may be overkill for some missions?

    Yeah, because that always happens... you try to buy aircraft X and are refused, but aircraft Y is offered instead but is more expensive than the biggest and most expensive aircraft in your inventory... it is like India saying they want F-16s but America demanding they buy F-35s instead but they are charging $400 million per aircraft... they could get F-22s for that...

    More importantly the expensive aircraft in this case is the same generation as the Su-30MKI or Su-35 they could have for a quarter of the price... having an aircraft that is over kill is a GOOD thing.

    I am not sure why you think they should put all eggs in one basket....costs aside French equipment is decent and so is American especially F-16's.

    Yeah but this basket has proved reliable even when you fall off your bike... the French and American equipment in comparison is not keeping all your eggs in one basket because you have one good safe affordable Russian basket and an American option that involves juggling so if you fall off the bike again you should have some unbroken eggs because they will be in the air...

    You seem to have anti American bias in general...I can understand issue based opinion but you may be over interpreting.

    Of course I do, why would I not have an anti American bias... what do you think America has done to deserve total loyalty?

    You violate your own stated morals and rules every day, what is there to respect?

    F-16's would be a good choice vs Pakistan.

    Pakistan already uses F-16s, do you want the Indian air defence forces shooting down Indian fighters by mistake?


    It is not that simple Mike, the flaw I see in India's approach is that they really need to go out with full offense surprize attack strategy and totally overwhelm and also enhance their intelligence.

    Except they were not planning an invasion or regime change, this was supposed to be a direct attack on the bases of the terrorists believed to have recently killed Indians paramilitary forces.

    So you are correct that india needs to introspect but it is a dysfunctional democracy...

    What other kind is there?
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:56 am

    southpark wrote:Well, India and China are the only major countries that buy their fighters in any quantity and China is leaping forward with their own and it will be only be a matter of time if the current trajectory continues for them and they stop going for major purchases from Russia just like their Navy. India not throwing money on FGFA is a loss in the amount of $5b that you mentioned, could have funded couple of yasens for them for instance. Well, partnerships like this at that stage has no precedent except for SU30MKI but that was a platform that was already kinda matured and FGFA is just in its infancy. The odds are it would turn into a black hole with no tangible deliverable. Not worth it especially if the Indians are not ready to absorb the technologies and have no base to build on it. I think Indians made the correct decision but they do that in their style whether you like it or not and I do not understand the drama every time they make a deal to step back. As Garry said two opposing groups?
    Major countries that buy their defence products abroad are an exception, India actually is one of the last doing so and it seems they will continue to need support if they are to substitute their Sukhois. What I say is that FGFA had a number of compensations from Russia that were quite questionable from an IP rights perspective. It is very possible that a program with smaller developmental and ToT scope will follow, similar to that for the Su-30MKI, which will be more simple to implement and more beneficial to Russia. The money would come either way.

    Gunship wrote:telling India to fuck themselves just because 2 journos (likely sponsored) expressed their opinions ? Russia agreed to export Su-57 for a reason. Anybody else can buy other then India? i dont see anybody else.
    ???
    I am not telling anybody to fuck themselves, all that I say is that FGFA is not necessary to Russia and a more simple and generic approach to supply the fighters is possible, one that does not result in a plane developed with India that can compete with the Su-57 in the international market and that leaves Russia more freedom in the development. I think it is India who is loosing out, but it was their decision in the end.

    Given realistically India has not so many options for getting a top 5G fighter, a sale from Russia is not only possible but even likely:
    > F-22: not new anymore, out of production, not in export, even less for India
    > F-35: likely not an option for India due to US restrictions. ALIS is a national security risk of the first order, no non-aligned country should allow something like that in their military. And besides that, the plane is no substitute for the MKIs in terms of capabilities
    > J-20 and J-31: as much an option as an Ilyushin becoming Air Force One.
    > ???? K-X? TF-X? Domestic program? For when and to get exactly what? With Su-57 they can realistically advance towards having a MKI substitute around 2030, with other programs there is not even an estimation of a date.

    There are simply no other 5G options and besides the Su-57 is probably the best among all of them. India can wait and Russia too, no problem. And also more countries will end up buying in all probability, after the plane is deployed with RuAF.
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    Post  Hole on Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:15 am

    One last off-topic comment: Pakistan and India should grow up and change their behaviour. They still do what their old colonial masters wanted them to do: kill each other. Talk and settle the proplems. Maybe they should even re-unite. Good thing is they are part of SC, there is at least one grown-up on the table (Russia).

    By the way… from Su-57 to F-16 in one page. respekt

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    Post  southpark on Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:35 am

    GarryB wrote:It is clear India can not counter China economically or militarily but they have nuclear weapons if its a survival war. China is a world power now and probably will not be as rash either but who knows what China will do in war with Pakistan.

    The US goal seems to be if not out right war, at least to pit India and China against each other and try to stir trouble so they can sit back and watch two potential rivals destroy each other...
    [/quote]

    Your comment is very weird, you seem to be drawing imaginary circles and imaginary tangents to what I said. Where did the US come into play till now between India and China and what did they try to pit India against China?


    NATO is actively poking the bear... and spends tens of billions every year on defence but they don't have any organised IADS... any you clearly think India is backward and primitive... sanction proof I believe... yet India should have better technology than NATO?

    No idea why you bring up Nato vs Russia between India and Pakistan? Nato countries are puppets and they are part of a block and has that mentality for 70 years now, them not having IADS vs India not having it are two different topics and we are discussing the later not the former. India fought 3 wars with Pakistan and many small wars, how many wars did Russia and Nato fought directly at their borders? India lost their planes in offensive strikes by Pakistan each and every time and the recent event proves once more that they needed an IADS like S-400 like a while ago....at least now they are getting it instead of prioritizing the FGFA or other 5th gen. I lived extensively in parts of Asia and I can tell you it is not easy to survive besides an islamic state that exports terrorism....case in point Russia vs Chechens. It is like death by 1000 cuts. Pakistan is not even in top 10 trading partners of US and neither is Russia I believe. EU was biggest trading partner of Russia....get a sense of relations...


    Pakistan and China combined really don't have a super strong air attack capacity... certainly nothing like NATO.

    It does not matter....they have had wars and skirmishes all along, more recent at Bhutan border. India needs to be prepared if it does not want to lose more land....the country lost land with smaller and bigger power. They better be prepared than regret...it is not like they attacked China or Pakistan.


    Or for NATO... the Bear it keeps poking...

    Irrelevant....totally different discussion...


    Russia is heavily sanctioned by the US and the EU for their aggression everywhere...

    Irrelevant to this discussion...totally different reasons and nothing to do with India or Pakistan. Not sure why you think I stated my opinions on that....


    Why would they not buy S-400s? It is a very capable system.... why does the US and UK rely on fighter aircraft to provide air control instead of a proper IADS?

    Again you took it in a wrong way....I said they should have bought it a long time ago....are you seriously comparing India with US (strategy wise) and UK? UK without US is not much to brag about now...not sure how your comment is relevant either....India is facing active terror threats from a neighbor constantly. It is well known to the world what Pakistan exports...


    There actually are not that many countries on the planet that have proper national IADS, and even then they are not perfect.

    Your comment does not make sense to me....are you saying a country size of India having fought wars in their recent past and facing active terror threats from fundamentalism does not require air defense systems?


    I find it hilarious that your interpretation of Russian aggression is them not being happy at their neighbours joining a US led anti Russian military coalition called NATO. Look at the US reaction to a few oil deals between Russia and China with Venezuela... they have repeatedly tried to overthrow the democratically elected government like they did in the Ukraine.... but Russia is the bad guy?

    You keep changing your coordinate system or move my coordinates into one that you prefer...
    All I said is that big powers make deals and they could be detrimental to other smaller nations and Russia or USSR before are no exceptions with other Western powers....do you disagree? If not why there is a limit to only 5 nuclear powers and 5 perm member in UNSC?


    You are right... this does need to be moved to the talking bollocks thread...
    Sure if you think it needs to be....

    Well, tbh we do not know all the details and where the Russian planes fall short in the Indian war planning. Sukhoi's may be overkill for some missions?


    Yeah, because that always happens... you try to buy aircraft X and are refused, but aircraft Y is offered instead but is more expensive than the biggest and most expensive aircraft in your inventory... it is like India saying they want F-16s but America demanding they buy F-35s instead but they are charging $400 million per aircraft... they could get F-22s for that...

    More importantly the expensive aircraft in this case is the same generation as the Su-30MKI or Su-35 they could have for a quarter of the price... having an aircraft that is over kill is a GOOD thing.

    Huh....you are imagining things....I said very clearly India is on a path to diversify and it does not mean they will get Russia out (almost impossible till they develop their domestic industry) but they have purchased C-17s, p8's and Apaches I think along with Rafale's and some other stuff....you can complain to Indian gov that they have no right to do that....you seem to have judged India as US puppet without any evidence already...there is absolutely no evidence they are planning to buy F-35's....we may not even sell it to them. It may hurt you but US really does not give a lot of weight to India...we know we do not have that much leverage on them and it is not critical for us to have it either as they are reasonably friendly to everyone and not block minded.

    I am not sure why you think they should put all eggs in one basket....costs aside French equipment is decent and so is American especially F-16's.


    Yeah but this basket has proved reliable even when you fall off your bike... the French and American equipment in comparison is not keeping all your eggs in one basket because you have one good safe affordable Russian basket and an American option that involves juggling so if you fall off the bike again you should have some unbroken eggs because they will be in the air...

    Then explain to me why they are diversifying....there is safety in it for them and in their interest. It does not mean they will get rid of Russian equipment. Neither Russia nor India is worried in their defense relations....but you seem to be stressed out.


    Of course I do, why would I not have an anti American bias... what do you think America has done to deserve total loyalty?
    Just do not let it blind your thought process unreasonably....practicality and open-mindedness go long way....even the Russian's keep options open :-), so you can have your opinions. No one is asking for your loyality to USA....not having a bias does not mean having loyality


    You violate your own stated morals and rules every day, what is there to respect?

    You certainly need US bashing thread....big powers are never liked whether it is US/USSR/China....at the moment US is villain according to you (I get it) and our politicians have not been very smart recently but it does not make sense for you to bring up tangential discussions to a point I never made...


    Pakistan already uses F-16s, do you want the Indian air defence forces shooting down Indian fighters by mistake?
    There are established ways to rule that out....India seems to have shot down their own Mi-17....what is your point? Turkey and Greece both fly F-16's...what is the gurantee that Russia wont sell their fighters to Pakistan unlikely but not impossible...in that case you think entire Indian airforce is just sitting ducks? This is weird conclusion...China and India both fly Russian planes, so I guess they can't fight.


    Except they were not planning an invasion or regime change, this was supposed to be a direct attack on the bases of the terrorists believed to have recently killed Indians paramilitary forces.
    Except that the reaction almost turned into war....what did they expect, Pakistan will just take it? Indian's should have planned it better and followed through if it came to that...this softness of them resulted in losing parts of their country and a midget like pakistan use terror against them....

    So you are correct that india needs to introspect but it is a dysfunctional democracy...

    What other kind is there?[/quote]

    a bit more functional...I guess that is too much
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    Post  southpark on Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:48 am

    Hole wrote:One last off-topic comment: Pakistan and India should grow up and change their behaviour. They still do what their old colonial masters wanted them to do: kill each other. Talk and settle the proplems. Maybe they should even re-unite. Good thing is they are part of SC, there is at least one grown-up on the table (Russia)

    Do what their colonial power says? I am confused, India is a UK puppet again? Sorry to bring reality to you....lets see how your country deals with your mostly islamic migrants in couple of generations....weight a minute, it already can not handle it. Too naive comment....Russia had their own issues with it, they went apeshit razing the chechen city to the ground. There is no dealing with vermin as Putin said...even now their south caucuses can flare up anytime if they take their eyes off.

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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:31 am

    I did not know that there is a minimum requirement on number of posts to state your opinion and it was not like a personal attack nor was I disrespectful

    It was a warning.

    And you also need to accept that members who have been here a while will get more leeway than someone new.


    Again I observed his posts and it came across to me his opinions were biased between India and Pakistan from the very first post after the incident.

    So.

    You will notice very quickly I have a strong bias against America and the west in general... you can try to balance that but don't expect to change it... I didn't wake up this morning and think that perhaps someone that has very high morals but acts worse than they accuse their hated enemies of acting is not someone to either listen to or respect.

    America and the west have earned their position in my eyes.

    Not sure if I stated anywhere US was innocent?

    You called him out on his pro Pakistani bias, yet for most of the cold war your country financed their terrorist supporting activities... you might be mildly upset with him, but you should be outraged at your government funding and supporting Pakistan all these years.

    Are you implying buying American equipment makes them automatically US bitch?

    America flew drones around in Pakistan and killed lots of people and the Pakistani air force did nothing to stop them... bitch? Yes.

    Pakistan was Americas access to Afghanistan, but they worked a deal with Russia and some former soviet states because access via that direction was safer... you stop being a bitch when you are no longer useful... some might say Pakistan has rejected the US and gone Chinese, but really America saw India as a much more lucrative bitch and has ditched Pakistan and has been trying to get its hooks into India ever since... Pakistan has turned to China.

    I do not think India will abandon the Russian equipment but they will for sure diversify whether you accept it or not.

    I think the more experience they get with US gear the more they will look to Russia or making things themselves...

    There is evidence for it...they want benefits from US then they need to yield on some too...but it does not necessarily mean they are US or Russian bitch.

    That is the only way america knows... it does not have allies... it has interests and right now 1.3 billion consumers is very interesting. Russia doesn't have bitches or it would be the one imposing sanctions and demanding Turkey get out of the F-35 deal and not buy Patriots or it can't have S-400.

    I just hope we pull back a little and concentrate our resources and not underestimate our opponents.

    See, now that is just stupid.

    Perhaps when smarter people are in power in the US they might realise the only people making Russia and China enemies is America... your only real opponents are ISIS because they want you dead... Russia and China just want you to leave them alone.

    You said before that if India wants benefits from the US then they need to yield on some things... what has the US ever yielded on?

    I already stated my opinion in another thread or this one that India does not have a record of being someone's puppet or bitch as you put it.

    They don't because they have not had a record of buying things from the US or UK or Germany or other countries that like to put moral strings on military purchases.

    Your comment is very weird, you seem to be drawing imaginary circles and imaginary tangents to what I said. Where did the US come into play till now between India and China and what did they try to pit India against China?

    Do you not read US military documents... the US military could not give a shit about 1.2 billion consumers... that is the US MIC and civilian companies, the US military is interested in strengthening India to counter China... they are doing the same in Europe with Ukraine and Georgia and the baltic countries and eastern block european countries to counter Russia... or have you had your head in the sand?

    Nothing the US military would love more is Russia fighting Ukraine, or China fighting India...


    No idea why you bring up Nato vs Russia between India and Pakistan?

    You said India is poor and primitive and therefore largely sanction proof... but why don't they have a fully functioning state of the art IADS.

    The EU is rich and powerful and does not have one either... that is why I mentioned it... IADS are not that common.

    India lost their planes in offensive strikes by Pakistan each and every time and the recent event proves once more that they needed an IADS like S-400 like a while ago

    ??? What?

    S-400 is not an IADS.

    EU was biggest trading partner of Russia....get a sense of relations...

    It was before the US demanded the EU put sanctions on the EU and then Russia responded by putting its own sanctions on the EU.

    Now China is becoming Russias biggest trading partner...


    It does not matter....they have had wars and skirmishes all along, more recent at Bhutan border. India needs to be prepared if it does not want to lose more land....the country lost land with smaller and bigger power. They better be prepared than regret...it is not like they attacked China or Pakistan.

    India has had a policy of not buying everything from one country and IADS is extensive and complex... the I says it all... Integrated... it would be a nightmare trying to integrate their mish mash of systems and equipment into one unified air defence system.

    Irrelevant....totally different discussion...

    No it isn't... the largest and most powerful military power group on the planet that loves to provoke and move bases and troops closer to Russian borders doesn't have an IADS... so why would you expect any other individual country to have one?


    Again you took it in a wrong way....I said they should have bought it a long time ago....are you seriously comparing India with US (strategy wise) and UK? UK without US is not much to brag about now...not sure how your comment is relevant either....India is facing active terror threats from a neighbor constantly. It is well known to the world what Pakistan exports...

    S-300 and S-400 are not IADS. It would not matter if India bought the first S-400s produced serially, that is not the same as an IADS system.

    Your comment does not make sense to me....are you saying a country size of India having fought wars in their recent past and facing active terror threats from fundamentalism does not require air defense systems?

    Air defence systems and IADS and S-400 are different things... a Verba MANPAD is an air defence system, an S-400 is a heavy long range SAM.... before the Syrian air defence forces accidently shot down that Russian plane they had an enormous range of SAMs of all types but they all operated separately as individual systems... each radar operator saw what his radar detected but nothing else.

    The Russian reaction to the problem was they installed a full IADS... they also added S-300 missiles but just adding the IADS on its own would dramatically improve the air defence capacity of the Syrian defence forces... an IADS is like AEGIS... it is sensors and communications and command as well as weapons all working together sharing information and acting in a coordinated way.

    You keep changing your coordinate system or move my coordinates into one that you prefer...
    All I said is that big powers make deals and they could be detrimental to other smaller nations and Russia or USSR before are no exceptions with other Western powers....do you disagree? If not why there is a limit to only 5 nuclear powers and 5 perm member in UNSC?

    OK... let me put it this way... if Russia acted the same way the US did Georgia and the Ukraine would both be regime changed and so probably would be Iraq and Libya and Israel. Russia would increase the price of its gas to europe to only just a little bit less than other source gas supplies and the gas delivery would halt any time europe asserted its authority in a way that upset the kremlin.

    There would have been no issue regarding the Crimea because it never would have been considered Ukrainian in the first place... because it never was. Kruschev had no right to gift it to the Ukraine in the first place. If he did it would only take a minute to get Gorby to gift all of Europe and Asia to Russia.

    .I said very clearly India is on a path to diversify and it does not mean they will get Russia out

    Traditionally they bought Soviet and French and Israeli gear... recently they have been buying American gear, but lets wait to see what their experience is yet before we decide what they are going to do... American gear is expensive... just like French gear was... but France didn't impose sanctions or tell them who they could or could not buy oil from, or to buy Patriots instead of S-400s or else.

    but they have purchased C-17s, p8's and Apaches I think along with Rafale's and some other stuff....you can complain to Indian gov that they have no right to do that....you seem to have judged India as US puppet without any evidence already..

    When they bought C-17s the Il-476 alternative was not in production... they already have Il-76s in service. The Russians don't have an up to date replacement for their Il-38 yet either so the P-8 didn't really have any Russian alternative, and the Apache is a mature system, while the Mi-28N of the time was new and largely untested.

    India can buy what they want, but at the same time if they want to buy from America, they cannot complain if Russia sells to China or Pakistan... especially when the US supported Pakistan all those years during the cold war...

    Of course now the Il-476 is in production and the Mi-28NM looks like a very interesting new aircraft... the C-17 is known for being expensive, and the Apache is a bit of a Hangar queen and also expensive to support.

    there is absolutely no evidence they are planning to buy F-35's....we may not even sell it to them.

    US companies have been suggesting...

    It may hurt you but US really does not give a lot of weight to India...we know we do not have that much leverage on them and it is not critical for us to have it either as they are reasonably friendly to everyone and not block minded.

    The US military repeatedly mentions support and operations with India intended to counter China in the region... otherwise the US military could care less.

    Then explain to me why they are diversifying....there is safety in it for them and in their interest.

    I suspect the French are rather better at giving bribes, but the Russian equipment actually works well in the conditions and environment and are more practical weapons. I am sure American companies are good with bribes and 'incentives'... they practise on senators and pentagon officials all the time...

    Neither Russia nor India is worried in their defense relations....but you seem to be stressed out.

    Doesn't both me in the slightest... I personally think Russia has a real future in developing undeveloped regions... self sufficiency technology will be as good in deep Sibera as on mars or the moon as in the sahara.

    Just do not let it blind your thought process unreasonably....practicality and open-mindedness go long way....even the Russian's keep options open :-), so you can have your opinions. No one is asking for your loyality to USA....not having a bias does not mean having loyality

    Yeah... keep an open mind my ass... bias is what stops you from letting a convicted child molester be the local scout groups scout leader... bias is not always a bad thing.

    You certainly need US bashing thread....big powers are never liked whether it is US/USSR/China....at the moment US is villain according to you (I get it) and our politicians have not been very smart recently but it does not make sense for you to bring up tangential discussions to a point I never made...

    You can forgive the bad guy when it is the US, but why don't you forgive the bad guy when it is Saddam or Gaddafi or Maduro... can't you just say all the bad press they get is owned by people in the west with an interest in removing them from power and stealing their power and wealth... doesn't that make you worse than them... they never did that to you.

    There are established ways to rule that out....India seems to have shot down their own Mi-17....what is your point?

    Pakistan has Mi-17s.

    Turkey and Greece both fly F-16's...what is the gurantee that Russia wont sell their fighters to Pakistan unlikely but not impossible...in that case you think entire Indian airforce is just sitting ducks? This is weird conclusion...China and India both fly Russian planes, so I guess they can't fight.

    F-16s don't add anything India can't get from MiG-35s, and at the same time are not operated by Pakistan. The F-16 is not really a cheap fighter and is not really compatible with Soviet and Russian and French weapons and equipment, which is what India currently have.

    If they are going to buy a new American aircraft the only one that would make sense would be the F-35 because at least it is actually new.

    The MiG-35 on the other hand offers compatibility with the MiG-29s they already operate including at sea, and it will expand the range of weapons they can operate with existing systems and equipment.

    F-16s make no sense at all... especially brand new ones at a time when the second hand market is supposed to get rather big now that the F-35 is set to replace them in enormous numbers.

    And no, I don't like the F-35 either... it is a terrible design... but you said leave emotion out of it...

    Except that the reaction almost turned into war....what did they expect, Pakistan will just take it?

    A law respecting country would not have allowed terrorists set up bases in their territory in the first place and should have attacked it themselves.

    Indian's should have planned it better and followed through if it came to that...this softness of them resulted in losing parts of their country and a midget like pakistan use terror against them....

    India vs Pakistan is like north vs south in the US civil war... it is always going to be a hard dirty affair.

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    Post  southpark on Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:40 am

    I will keep it short...I know S-400 by itself is not IADS, I implied and explicitly stated Indians should have bought Pantsirs, Buks, Tor e.t.c to have an IADS. They can afford it...totally worth it for the threats they face than not having to regret to lose their land again. Europe does not want to spend money and they expect us to foot the bill...it is a point of contention now between us and them.

    I meant India as bitch not Pakistan to your earlier comment...when you allow bases of foreign country whether it is China or US then you are kinda giving up your sovereignty a bit. That is why I said there are very few sovereign countries that matter anyway.

    You are asking me why the western civilization is the way it is.....you live in one puppet country....why don't you move out if you are so opposed to it(just saying in a rhetoric manner to imply how little control we have)? Exactly, you think we have full power over every decision our gov makes? I also think China and Russia would be no different if the tables are turned...you think Catherine, the Great, Stalin and others were angels? Very few centers of civilizations are inward looking...India being one not with excessive violence in their history. Japan was constantly at war and extreme feudalism and Chinese, Mongols had their own brutality...islamic ones....I do not even want to list their crimes and it continues to this day.

    That is why all empires eventually die as they can't control themselves and become corrupt and greedy and US was supposed to be different and it kinda was sharing its progress with others but if we don't check ourselves then the risk of getting lost will be very high. You can hate us as much as you want but don't become unrealistic. As you said countries have interests....Putin is balanced and it does not mean Russia will always be balanced either....I prefer us competing with other powers with in set of rules and I am sure we will win....you are underestimating American spirit and ingenuity and ambition.

    Since it will be bollocks anyway, I will end it here....as the topic becoming the question of western civilization character and some idealistic presentation of why US does what it does....I do not have answers as I think its greed in every person, family and society to not share fairly perhaps...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:46 am

    De-facto, Pakistan as far as India is concerned plays similar role for China as N. Korea does: keep US allies "under the gun" 24/7/364.
    As both have nukes, any conflict between them will be confined to their borders, just like the USSR-PRC 1968/69 border war.
    Pakistan is supported by China & Saudi Arabia, while India has only her trade surplus & British Commonwealth membership for support.
    India breakup isn't finished yet: she lost Pakistan & Bangladesh; Nepal & Burma r getting ever closer to China & Bhutan may be next.
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    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 23 Empty But the Russian's are people with conscience

    Post  southpark on Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:58 am

    But the Russian's are people with conscience, how can they do business with people that support chemical attacks and shot down their own planes (Turkey)....that would be impossible...NOT
    Lure and purpose of the money is not very resistible I guess
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    Post  dino00 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:38 am

    southpark wrote:But the Russian's are people with conscience, how can they do business with people that support chemical attacks and shot down their own planes (Turkey)....that would be impossible...NOT
    Lure and purpose of the money is not very resistible I guess

    Turkish president apologizes for downing of Russian warplane last year

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/turkey-apologizes-for-shooting-down-russian-warplane-last-year/2016/06/27/d969e0ea-3c6d-11e6-9e16-4cf01a41decb_story.html?utm_term=.3c285d62f576

    And

    U.S. and Taliban Edge Toward Deal to End America’s Longest War

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/26/world/asia/afghanistan-taliban-peace-deal.html
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    Post  southpark on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:51 pm

    dino00 wrote:
    Turkish president apologizes for downing of Russian warplane last year

    Lol, I almost spilled my coffee this morning....I guess you believed in the octopus or fish (whatever) picking the winner in worldcup games. Anyway for grownup's it is simply business.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:39 pm

    southpark wrote:But the Russian's are people with conscience, how can they do business with people that support chemical attacks and shot down their own planes (Turkey)....that would be impossible...NOT
    Lure and purpose of the money is not very resistible I guess

    Only one thing matters in real world: money, principles don't count for shit

    Money what gives you power and keeps you alive, the lessons Soviets never learned

    In politics Russian conscience matters as much as American honesty and dedication to justice, democracy and human rights

    Basically stories for little children and sheep that compromise majority of population

    I hope most posters here are above buying into that idiotic nonsense
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    Post  southpark on Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:49 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I hope most posters here are above buying into that idiotic nonsense

    You said it better than me....Some wise guy once said, "we always underestimate number of stupid even in count of 2". I am not pointing at anyone...if it makes you feel better, I could be in that 2.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:40 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    southpark wrote:But the Russian's are people with conscience, how can they do business with people that support chemical attacks and shot down their own planes (Turkey)....that would be impossible...NOT
    Lure and purpose of the money is not very resistible I guess

    Only one thing matters in real world: money, principles don't count for shit

    Money what gives you power and keeps you alive, the lessons Soviets never learned

    In politics Russian conscience matters as much as American honesty and dedication to justice, democracy and human rights

    Basically stories for little children and sheep that compromise majority of population

    I hope most posters here are above buying into that idiotic nonsense

    Hey don't wake the sheep up, clinging to principles is what makes people easy to use like dogs.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:19 am

    Glad to see you have some free time to chat... we know you are very busy with your 9-5 job...

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 23 13588710
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    Post  jhelb on Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:18 pm

    I discovered a word this year - LIESCAPE. It is such a fabulous word. Seems newly-minted.

    Liescape is a vivid, detailed vision of a friendly reality you want to broadcast around to everyone.

    You build it up by the sheer power of your persuasion and carefully selected alternative facts. In the era of post-truth, it defeats all the lying media, breaks down the wall of fake news and brings you and your friends to a universe of crispy clarity and distinct purpose.
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    Post  kvs on Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:23 pm

    jhelb wrote:I discovered a word this year - LIESCAPE. It is such a fabulous word. Seems newly-minted.

    Liescape is a vivid, detailed vision of a friendly reality you want to broadcast around to everyone.

    You build it up by the sheer power of your persuasion and carefully selected alternative facts. In the era of post-truth, it defeats all the lying media, breaks down the wall of fake news and brings you and your friends to a universe of crispy clarity and distinct purpose.

    Nothing new. Humans have been living in all sorts of delusion bubbles for as long as they have existed. That is why populists and
    propagandists can gain traction. They just need to dial the right delusion frequencies and reinforce the delusion bubbles. The
    average prole does not exert their brain too much.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:55 pm

    Yeah, says the all knowing you. You think everyone is an idiot except for you. You are like John Mccain/Obama not respecting their opponents and calling them "Russia is a gas station, Putin is a thug" blah blah....you are no different....how old are you man that you have so much wisdom that you share it with so much modesty?

    Tell me I am wrong... the primary long range air to air weapon of the F-35 and F-22 is the radar guided AMRAAM... a weapon that was struggling to get funding in 1990 because everyone thought the western air power would walk all over the eastern block with their eyes closed... why spend money on a missile with it own radar... but then they got access to export model MiG-29s with R-73s and they shit themselves... they couldn't fight in close or they would get their arses kicked and Sparrow was a rather ordinary weapon at the time so funding went crazy for AMRAAM... in fact they were so scared of the MiG-29 R-73 combo that they didn't do much about WVR combat for quite a while and the Europeans had to end up making the ASRAAM partner to AMRAAM all by themselves, but those backstabbing Americans didn't buy it and went their own way as usual... you guys almost got awesome FN FALs instead of M14s you know... you promised to buy them if the Belgians supported the 7.62x51mm calibre, which they did...

    The problem with an BVR missile is it gives the enemy time to do something about it, so PK against aware targets is pretty damn low... not really good news for the F-22 or F-35 now is it, because they gave up dogfight capability so they could be stealthy...

    Do you want me to list the American firsts that you take for granted without thinking? Bias is one thing but you are dangerously dumb....

    Wow... an American offering to tell me how wonderful America is... boy, that makes a change...

    Vehicles that Russian doesnt operate itsself have almost never been bought. Nobody bought the T-90MS, MiG-35 or original BMPT.

    India is buying the upgraded T-90s and it is likely a few other countries will buy them... Russia bought some domestic models too of course. MiG-35 is entering service at a low rate to start with, and one of the stans uses the BMPT design...

    Most of central and south america had F-5s in service and later F-20s...

    Mig-35 has the same problem but it is also a company in bad situation as Russian air force preferes Sukhoi and the issue with Algerian SMTs is still well known. That doesn't help.

    The company is UAC and they are doing fine...

    If they want to sell mig-35 and t-90MS, they will need to include lot of ToT in their contracts and allow clients to build lot of spare parts themselves.

    India has already ordered upgraded T-90s, and the Russian AF is taking delivery of 6 MiG-35s too.

    Russia does not have infinite money and even if it did there is no point wasting extra money getting something in to mass production that they don't need in mass production... unless they can get signed export contracts to ensure they will keep making them long enough to make it worth while.

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    Post  southpark on Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    @GarryB


    The point is wars are fought with strategies and each has their own....on paper USSR had more air power than Germany but it was all taken out because offenders have that surprize edge and more modern tech and they were pretty much grounded in the first year. You really think American's are stupid to design a plane that is a total disaster....I actually think F35 has a lot of potential once they crank out the remaining issues...engines are great and maintenance of F-119 and F-135 engines are basically a marvel.....Watch the documentaries on F22 and F35 on youtube and listen to pilot's that honestly say what they are training for....they explicitly stated that they train for strategies in a "contested airspace". These are not some 2 bit reporters that sensationalize like you. It is a flawed way to assume that F-35 can carry only 4 missile's and blah blah...NATO has other fighters like Rafale's, F-15's e.t.c so I am sure they have their own strategies to counter the threats by using their fleet in way to increase success rates against opponents.

    If Russia is so superior in every category, then no need to worry about NATO or anyone else as they already can beat anyone to pulp according to you...aircraft carriers obsolete, Aegis pointless, F-22 and F35 built to fight 80's planes and so on....except reality is different as even a mig-21 can shot down modern F-16. Lot more factors to consider than your fantasy dick sizing everything....basically try not to make cheap and loose comment's as it shows your lack of respect.
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    Post  southpark on Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:38 am

    So far its been over promise and under deliver and too much talking....space competition is heating up while they are talking.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:46 am

    dino00 wrote:
    Austin wrote:Interview with Dimitri Rogozin

    https://www.kp.ru/best/msk/dmitrij-rogozin-v-kp/

    Not just interview, Tremendous interview!
    2022 is the breakthrough year

    Every year for the past 20 years has been "breakthrough year"

    Do I need to remind you where those "breakthroughs" landed them?

    I see that talk is still the cheapest and most readily available resource...




    southpark wrote:So far its been over promise and under deliver and too much talking....space competition is heating up while they are talking.

    You shouldn't have said that, now you will get the lecture about how every single f*ckup by Roskosmos is actually massive success and part of the grand plan by Space Jesus Rogozin lol1

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