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    "Poseidon" Nuclear-armed Underwater Drone

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    Post  Hole on Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:11 am

    The last time the Suez canal was blocked with a few mines for month. Just use a civilian freighter and drop a few into the water.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:19 am

    The point is that nations as we know them today are unlikely to continue to exist after WWIII.

    I doubt people in what is left of Russia will be yearning to trade with countries in Africa or south america for that matter... their nuclear winter will likely be a little colder than normal for a few decades... or all those fires might create a tipping point and raise the temperature a degree or two...

    A full scale nuke war and I really don't think international navigation will be an issue for anyone... and I doubt they will get their news from the TV or internet... and if they did... surprise surprise it was Russias fault... people who believe that now will likely continue to believe... dem evil ruskies moving their territory close to NATO bases... bastards... but drinking their own urine will probably be a nice break from drinking the US State Department Kool Aide... same colour and flavour... just warmer and fizzier and a little off colour... might be a bladder infection... better get that checked out...
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:52 am

    GarryB wrote:The point is that nations as we know them today are unlikely to continue to exist after WWIII.

    I doubt people in what is left of Russia will be yearning to trade with countries in Africa or south america for that matter... their nuclear winter will likely be a little colder than normal for a few decades... or all those fires might create a tipping point and raise the temperature a degree or two...

    A full scale nuke war and I really don't think international navigation will be an issue for anyone... and I doubt they will get their news from the TV or internet... and if they did... surprise surprise it was Russias fault... people who believe that now will likely continue to believe... dem evil ruskies moving their territory close to NATO bases... bastards... but drinking their own urine will probably be a nice break from drinking the US State Department Kool Aide... same colour and flavour... just warmer and fizzier and a little off colour... might be a bladder infection... better get that checked out...

    There was british short film showing what could happen in a nuk war. Everything destroyed and future population won't be civilized and they won't have access to school, education.... so all the technology would be lost. Most of them won't even know what a ship or TV are.

    When you think about it, every single piece of technology we use today is the result of thousands of working hours of the most smart ingineers and centuries of mathematics and physics learning.
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    Post  Hole on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:11 pm

    No internet! cry
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    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:27 pm

    Several points about Poseidon UUW

    - Many people ask me about our new "our everything" - about the robotic underwater vehicle "Poseidon" aka "Status-6" aka "Skif" aka KANYON aka ... For now, we don't say them secret indexes. So, what do I think about it like about weapon system? Of course, if you are interested in what I think about something))).

    First, yes, with the creation of a small-sized nuclear energy devices (say thanks to Hero of Russia Sergey Kiriyenko - head of Rosatom) and at the modern level of control systems it is certainly technically possible to create what we are told about - a robotic unmanned underwater vehicle with a long, apparently, practically unlimited range. I don't understand why such vehicles with unlimited range must to have submarine-carriers. They brought the vehicle to the pier by rail, lowered it into the water with a crane, activated it, it itself was positioned, established connect with the operator and went to perform the task. Everything is simple and without complications. May be carriers are military cunning and the budget-forming interests of the military-industrial complex?

    The second is a damaging effect. Here is the most popular variant - from first to be broadcast on NTV - a high-power thermonuclear warhead ensuring the defeat of the territory to unsuitable for industrial activity. The dimensions of the device which are already roughly known the placement of such a charge is certainly admitted. In fact, all this is a modern implementation of the "Sakharov torpedo". And we can think that about using of such weapons systems were worked out in the depths of the Ministry of Defense and the results were so impressive that by the end of the 1980s this project received the green light.

    Third. Yes, in the late 1980s! If we see in the history than we see that in time for 1990-1992 refers to the start of work on the project.

    Fourth, operators. Yes, I think that the vehicle will not be completely autonomous and like aviation drones will be controlled remotely. Here I see two points: first, how will the vehicle be controlled? What kind of communication line will be connected with it by a sub-carrier or another control point and at what distance such control will be possible? By the way, maybe that's can be main reason of subs-carriers - because you need to manage it somehow? And the second sub-question - will there be a completely autonomous mode? I think that it will be in future but now it's not realized.

    The fifth. One radio asked me here to comment on the use of "Poseidons" as a tectonic weapon ... Well, I don’t seem to believe in miracles. Especially it is impossible even to calculate approximately. I think that this is still fantasy and a major defeat - see point 2.

    The sixth. With or without subs-carriers the new “arrows of Poseidon” will need to achieve their aims - points near the coast of the alleged enemy - major industrial centers, megalopolises, etc. Those. New York, London, Hawaii, San Francisco and other "los angeleses". And it is unlikely that the alleged enemy will sit and wait for the end of civilization. I think that they shall update or create new hydrophone networks for blocking both the appearance of our vehicles in the North Atlantic and at the Pacific Ocean. And I think that this will be a comprehensive solution (well, it would be foolish to solve the problem otherwise): space and aerial reconnaissance of all potential base points for subs-carriers, tracking the probable movements of the disturbed aquatic environment, setting up timelines for hydroacoustic buoys, expansion stationary systems. Given the current level of development of computer systems taking into account completely different data processing capabilities than 30-40 years ago and solving global antisubmarine defense system will probably and extremely complicate much truobles for sub-carriers and for UUW. Drones, of course, can go to a sufficiently large depth and thereby disguise themselves, but is there enough autonomous reserve to reach the lines of attack? Of course, now we can only guess. Вut I suppose that overcoming Farrero-Iceland and Kuril frontier anti-submarines line will be the No. 1 task for the new nuclear forces of the Russian Navy.

    Seventh, it is clear that such a weapon system is needed only for the last war and as a system of nuclear deterrence. To solve some other problems, its use is unlikely. But there is a seditious thought - in this quality this system is not obligatory for real existence - it is enough just to provide some probability of its existence. Is not it?

    Eighth, can be SSN of project 09851 Khabarovsk a prototype of the future series of the SSN of project 09853 - the project index of which slipped in the part of annual reports? I think that it is possible, given the fact that we have been promised a whole series of subs-carriers "Poseidon" and the index of the new project was held in the sources in the plural.

    The ninth question is whether it will be possible to pull at the same time several such impressive defense programs and what will we all eat here in this situation? Joke but...



    https://militaryrussia.livejournal.com/436045.html#cutid1
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:33 pm

    Длина Length - ~16,8 м
    Диаметр Diameter - not less than 2 м

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-746.html

    An-22/-124 or IL-76, future IL-106 & possibly Mi-26 could drop them as well!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-22#Specifications_(An-22)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-124_Ruslan#Specifications_(An-124-100M-150)
    https://www.aircharterservice.com/aircraft-guide/cargo/antonov-ukraine/antonovan-124

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76#Specifications_(Il-76TD-90)
    http://www.acp-logistics.com/ilyushin-IL-76-charter.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-106#Specifications

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mi-26-specs.htm


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:29 pm

    so much idiocy or deliberate misleading of facts and application modes in so shot texts! WOW.
    In order not to waste time on all idiocy let me respond to some "with highest moronic index"


    1)
    a robotic unmanned underwater vehicle with a long, apparently, practically unlimited range. I don't understand why such vehicles with unlimited range must to have submarine-carriers

    Of course you dont, but then why do you write idiocy? ICBM/SLBM have global range why US is basing its tide on subs with them?! not better to base all in one place?




    2)
    Fourth, operators. Yes, I think that the vehicle will not be completely autonomous and like aviation drones will be controlled remotely.

    drones in avoiding bottom obstacles or already are or very soon will be autonomous. "I think" With lack of tech knowledge better not to play an expert. PS. did you ever hear about ELF sub comms? to give updates of tsk not online instructions



    3)
    The fifth. One radio asked me here to comment on the use of "Poseidons" as a tectonic weapon ... Well, I don’t seem to believe in miracles. Especially it is impossible even to calculate approximately. I think that this is still fantasy and a major defeat - see point 2.

    "I think", first check facts - it was already done some time go by scientists for US military - Defense Nuclear Agency, April 1996 .

    https://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/2587
    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a304244.pdf

    p. 27 table: of course there are multitude of coefficients (like bottom nd shore characteristics)


    yield....................distance to shore....................wave height

    100MT.................5 nmi....................................457m
    100MT................10 nmi...................................228m
    100mT................50nmi.....................................46m


    50nmi = 90km radius



    IMHO this is unlikely o be main mode off application. CSGs can have priority. Cities destruction is better smaller yield nd more with dirty bombs tho.




    4)
    The sixth. With or without subs-carriers the new “arrows of Poseidon” will need to achieve their aims - points near the coast of the alleged enemy - major industrial centers, megalopolises, etc.

    And US SSBNs park directly to Russian ports? affraid affraid affraid Who said Poseidon will go without assistance of other drones/hydroacoustic countermeasures ? lol1 lol1 lol1





    5)
    he ninth question is whether it will be possible to pull at the same time several such impressive defense programs and what will we all eat in this situation

    if you give laser gun to a monkey,monkey will still use it as a mace, at best. This dude seriously doesn't get this is very cheap alternative to keep Us aggressors at bay.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:30 pm

    Hole wrote:No internet! cry

    that is a serious argument against using of Russian drones thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:13 pm

    They could also be manned & abandoned by the crew right after the final course is set, 100s of miles from the target area. A sub, another drone, or helo/ship can pick them up.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:30 am


    IMHO this is unlikely o be main mode off application. CSGs can have priority. Cities destruction is better smaller yield nd more with dirty bombs tho.

    Most modern nukes are relatively clean because fusion explosions produce less radiation than fission explosions and modern nukes just use fission explosions to set off the fusion reaction.

    Also to get good damage coverage air bursts are generally used which expands the distance the blast is effective but reduces the amount of material irradiated to the dust that gets sucked up into the fire ball.

    With a sea delivered nuke... even a small one... the fire ball will vapourise an enormous amount of sea water and mud and sand when it detonates and the heat will carrying it up into the atmosphere... but not as high as an air burst which starts off higher and has much lighter material that goes up higher into the atmosphere with the detonation and fire ball.

    That means the underwater explosion irradiates probably millions of tons of material that is not blown up as high in the atmosphere and would start falling back down to earth rather more rapidly delivering irradiated material all around the area that was attacked.

    The light material from a modern fusion air burst might remain high in the atmosphere for weeks and by the time it comes down the most irradiated material will have become less dangerous... the more radioactive something is the shorter period of time it is dangerous for, so staying in a fall out shelter for a month can reduce the effect of radiation, but some things will stay radioactive for centuries... you just have to hope your great great great grandchildren develop a tollerance to it...
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    Post  Arrow on Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:58 am

    Most modern nukes are relatively clean because fusion explosions produce less radiation than fission explosions and modern nukes just use fission explosions to set off the fusion reaction. wrote:

    It's not true. Most modern nukes it takes half the energy from the fission. Fast fission from second stage tamper. Tamper is from U-235. You can get cleaner nukes but then they have much less power with similar weight. Instead of U235, there is lead.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:18 pm

    About the navigation of Poseidon: a modern inertial navigation system with some input from GLONASS via ELF signals should be good enough to hit not even a harbor but a certain pier in that harbor. For an attack on a carrier/ship it will use its sonar. By the way, the sonar could also be used to look after the relief of the ocean floor and compare it with stored images.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:38 am

    It's not true. Most modern nukes it takes half the energy from the fission.

    Modern nukes are very small and light and contain very little actual matter.... the fission trigger is just to allow the fusion reaction to occur which generates the main power of the weapon.

    The dangerous radioactivity range is much smaller than the blast range of a modern nuke... to get a lethal radiation dose you would need to be so close that you would get vapourised by the blast so most deaths from modern nukes are from blast damage rather than radiation in the initial explosion.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:47 pm

    A big rock in the Atlantic or Pacific could also be nuked, causing a landslide & tsunami, but w/o big radiation fallout, no need to travel across the ocean:
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/609381/Volcano-could-collapse-anytime-sending-220m-high-tsunami-over-Atlantic-scientists-warn
    https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1206-mega-tsunami-will-devastate-all-atlantic-coasts/
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/aug/10/science.spain
    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/traces-of-an-ancient-mega-tsunami/411970/
    https://pilotonline.com/news/local/science/article_f64a498f-e2bc-5a75-bdb3-9ad0fb9c5da0.html

    The damage caused will still be substantial; most, if not all, enemy's ships & subs caught in ports/yards will be turned into scrap.


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    Post  Hole on Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:46 pm

    If I recall correctly the western flank of Fuerteventura is instable. Some experts talked about it back in 2004, after the tsunami in asia. If this part of the island would collapse a gigantic tsunami would even reach the eastern coast of Trumpland. Even a small nuclear device could be enough to trigger that event.

    Maybe someone should send an e-mail to the kremlin.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:15 pm

    The Russian geologists, vulcanologists & oceanologists r aware of the past tsunamis caused by land slides; I heard the Yellowstone super volcano could be nuked too to trigger an eruption; so they already know of this option. Or an underwater mountain could be nuked to cause a landslide & tsunami. NPPs will also be destroyed & release radiation, like what happened in Fukushima.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:42 am

    GarryB wrote: That means the underwater explosion irradiates probably millions of tons of material that is not blown up as high in the atmosphere and would start falling back down to earth rather more rapidly delivering irradiated material all around the area that was attacked.
    ..

    Cobalt nukes? well, US mass media since 2015 are talking about "salted " Poseidon's warhead... I hope it never happens tho. If it will we here all gonna die. But you will likely live in mad max world...



    Poseidons IMHO could use ocean floor properties to act as a " resonator" to create a better wave. BTW did you notice how many hydrographic ships are now lunched in Russia? My educated guess is not without reasons...

    "Poseidon" Nuclear-armed Underwater Drone - Page 7 Atlantic-ocean



    The second best or even better option , IMHO, would be ocean floor based ICBMs . Can remain dormant years waiting on command.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:55 am

    Hole wrote:If I recall correctly the western flank of Fuerteventura is instable. Some experts talked about it back in 2004, after the tsunami in asia. If this part of the island would collapse a gigantic tsunami would even reach the eastern coast of Trumpland. Even a small nuclear device could be enough to trigger that event.

    Maybe someone should send an e-mail to the kremlin.

    meh we need bigger wave

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:56 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The Russian geologists, vulcanologists & oceanologists r aware of the past tsunamis caused by land slides; I heard the Yellowstone super volcano could be nuked too to trigger an eruption; so they already know of this option. Or an underwater mountain could be nuked to cause a landslide & tsunami. NPPs will also be destroyed & release radiation, like what happened in Fukushima.

    I only hope there will be never need to trigger anything like that. ..
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:24 am

    Cobalt nukes? well, US mass media since 2015 are talking about "salted " Poseidon's warhead... I hope it never happens tho. If it will we here all gonna die. But you will likely live in mad max world...

    Even just a standard nuke detonated underwater near the sea floor will vapourise and blow up into the air enormous amounts of material that will then cool and fall back to the ground. The material will cool faster than it will become less radioactive, so it might all fall back to the ground within 2-3 days but the irradiated material might be seriously dangerous for 2-3 weeks which means where the material lands there is a risk of radiation exposure.

    With an air burst say 3km above the target the blast wave will cover a much bigger area but the fire ball will suck up only a small fraction of the amount of material that a ground burst would vapourise, so the amount of material being irradiated and super heated as it flows through the fire ball on its way up will be a tiny fraction of a ground burst but the small amount of material will be lighter and travel up higher into the atmosphere and might travel around the planet a couple of times before it comes back down in 2-3 months time when the radiation released from it is greatly reduced.

    Very simply there are different types of radiation generated... the most dangerous is also the most energetic and can reduce to safe levels much quicker.

    I seem to recall there being Gamma, Alpha, and Beta radiation... the former being the most dangerous but also the shortest ranged and shortest lived... most modern weapons to get killed by the gamma rays you would need to be well inside the fire ball to get a lethal dose. In comparison the Alpha and Beta rays are less dangerous but remain dangerous for much longer.

    Very simply a tiny nuke like a 1kt bomb might have a 200m range gamma danger range, but a 100Kt nuke might have a 250m range gamma ray danger range despite being 100 times more powerful the gamma ray range does not increase 100 times.

    This means with a 10MT explosion the gamma ray range might be 400m or so and thus the fire ball of the explosion will kill anyone who could possibly have been injured by the gamma rays.

    Conversely the neutron bomb has enhanced radiation... a 1KT neutron bomb might have a gamma ray range of 2km... so whether you are outside or in a house, within 2km of the detonation site you will get a lethal dose of gamma rays and die... painfully over the next few days to weeks...

    Poseidons IMHO could use ocean floor properties to act as a " resonator" to create a better wave. BTW did you notice how many hydrographic ships are now lunched in Russia? My educated guess is not without reasons...

    It could be that, but the fact of the matter is that we have a better idea about the surface of the moon than we do of our own oceans, so more hydrographic ships is a good thing... mapping the ocean floor will be useful for navigation of UUVs of all types...

    The second best or even better option , IMHO, would be ocean floor based ICBMs . Can remain dormant years waiting on command.

    Depending where you put them... they could be IRBMs and much much smaller than ICBMs if you drop them closer to the target.

    Using big warheads it could just be a warhead, shaped to look like an oddly shaped rock...

    I only hope there will be never need to trigger anything like that. ..

    I am sure Deep State probably have a plan to trigger some sort of major war that will decimate the worlds population down to maybe 1-2 billion... where they remain safe and the world is not too badly irradiated and damaged, so generating earthquakes and super volcano eruptions and tsunamis would be their first choice weapons.... along with climate change of course...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:40 pm

    Terrible damage: the United States assessed the result of the use of nuclear "Poseidon"
    32 "Poseidons" will be equally divided between the Northern and Pacific Fleets. Thus, 16 Northern Fleet vehicles will be able to hit targets in Europe, Canada and the east coast of the United States, and 16 Pacific Fleet submarine drones will be able to hit Japan, China, and the west coast of the United States and Canada.
    The Poseidon will be the largest torpedo in the world with a diameter of 6.5 feet and a length of 65 feet. A nuclear reactor will enable it to independently cross the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. He will be able to move without having to fix his position on the GPS. Earlier it was stated that the warhead capacity is up to 200 megatons, but at present it has a power of two megatons. But still it is worth remembering that two megatons is 2000 kilotons, and the nuclear explosion in Hiroshima was only 16 kilotons, "says Foxtrot Alpha. ..The author of the publication writes that the bases of the American submarines with the Kitsap and Kings Bay ballistic missiles located on the east and west coasts will probably be in the list of targets for the Poseidons.
    The article notes that "Poseidon" is not a first strike weapon. Unlike intercontinental ballistic missiles that can reach the United States in minutes, it takes hours or even days to reach its target under water. Therefore, it is conceived as a second strike weapon, forcing the enemy to abandon the idea of ​​an attack on Russia, so that after some time not to receive from its coast a reciprocal atomic explosion "nuclear apocalypse torpedoes."
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:54 am

    According to Tass newswire, the arms system is undergoing underwater trials, and two Poseidon-carrying submarines will be incorporated into the Russian Pacific Fleet – another two are expected to join the Northern Fleet. Each carrier will deploy a maximum of eight strategic drone-torpedoes.
    “The Poseidon strike system is designed to attack predominantly key coastal targets such as naval bases and carrier battle groups,” he explained. “Once fully operational, it would pose a very serious risk to key bases and assets of the US 7th and 3rd fleets, as well as to the Pacific coast of the United States.”
    Muraviev argued that in the case of an open military confrontation with the United States, the Russian navy would likely make targeting main naval bases such as San Diego, Pearl Harbor or Yokosuka its first priority, particularly if they were home to principal naval assets such as aircraft carriers, major amphibious vessels, Aegis guided-missile cruisers and destroyers at the time of the attack.
    In this respect, the use of Poseidon torpedoes against important naval assets “would allow it to achieve strategic outcomes with a single, swift strategic strike,” he said.
    China not immune
    If the United States is concerned with Poseidon drones in the Western Pacific, China might not be that happy about their presence too. After all, the Chinese understand that these weapons can go in all directions.
    “Based solely on objective capabilities, China, of course, has grounds to worry about Russia’s new strategic unmanned underwater vehicle,” said Collin Koh, a research fellow at the S Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore.
    But the relationship between China and Russia is now in good shape, so “the Chinese probably will not view Poseidon as an immediate threat,” he noted.
    Moreover, Koh said China and Russia should be seen as “strange bedfellows” rather than real long-term partners. “If the texture of future US-Russia relations were to change for better, this may spell some risks for Beijing,” he stressed.
    “In the long run, China may see Russia potentially become a ‘second front’ of challenge in the naval domain after the US. At the very least, Russia’s Poseidon will spur Beijing to hasten R&D efforts into equivalent programs,” the Singapore-based analyst said.
    In any case, Koh said the Chinese had recently put a lot of resources into artificial intelligence (AI), robotics and unmanned systems, so establishing a program analogous to the Poseidon drone is well within their reach.

    Russia’s nuclear-capable underwater drone to be deployed

    In case of a naval war with Russia &/ China, the USN CSGs may be confined to port/home waters just like the Argentinian CV was in 1982. Nuking them isn't even required: high explosives detonated directly underneath a CVN is enough set off tons of its own high explosive ordinance.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:27 pm

    I still think that this is a needless idea and waste of money
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:41 pm

    flamming_python wrote:I still think that this is a needless idea and waste of money


    Considering how everyone at Pentagon is getting their panties in a bunch it might be decent idea after all. Can't shoot down a torpedo with ABM shields (not that it works but you know...).

    And that mini-reactor alone is worth the investment.

    Also, this is good thing to have if China starts acting up given the geography.. I don't say they will but contingencies and all that.

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    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:I still think that this is a needless idea and waste of money


    Considering how everyone at Pentagon is getting their panties in a bunch it might be decent idea after all. Can't shoot down a torpedo with ABM shields (not that it works but you know...).

    And that mini-reactor alone is worth the investment.

    Also, this is good thing to have if China starts acting up given the geography.. I don't say they will but contingencies and all that.


    No warhead needed. If this reactor is suppose to make it cruise at more than 100km/h it means that every thing around it will be contaminated by huge level of radiation. Just make it cruise around the US and let it poison them slowly.

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