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SR-10 jet trainer
Hole- Posts : 10726
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GarryB, George1, flamming_python, Big_Gazza and lancelot like this post
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2414
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Off topic from the Su-27 thread
Well, a restarted development of MiG AT could be powered by a derated version of the Saturn Al55, the same engine that is supposed to go on the (single engine) Indian trainer HAL HJT-36 Sitara (and that was proposed for an eventual production version of the SR-10)
The issue is that the MigAT was supposed to be a twin engine aircraft, and considerably bigger than the single engine L39. So it would only be an alternative to the larger yak 130 and not a complementary aircraft to it.
What Russia would need now as a complementary intermediate trainer between the yak152 and the yak130 would be an single engine aircraft similar to the Italian M345 (the M346 is basically a copy/parallel development of the the yak130).
I thought that the SR-10 could take that role but apparently it was never accepted by the air force.
Maybe mig can propose something in that niche.
GarryB wrote:The new MiG model single engined fighter has full internal weapons storage so it is stealthy... which it has over the Yak-130, it is very small, which the checkmate isn't, but if they want performance then they have the carrier model with two engines which will be essentially a stealthy MiG-35, so they have both bases covered this time.
Remember the lost to the Yak-130 for the LIFT because the Yak-130 was seen as being potentially a light fighter with better armament... the MiG had a french engine but then the Yak had a Ukrainian one so the same solution could have been applied.
The MiG-AT would have been much cheaper to operate and could have been a rather better LIFT with hindsight, but it wasn't to be, and now they talk about an SR-10 or even a MiG-AT as an early jet trainer to replace the L39 and fill the gap between propeller driven Yak-52 or Yak-152 and the Yak-130 which is too expensive to be a general jet trainer and would become an advanced jet trainer instead.
Money being saved by pilots flying SR-10s or MiG-ATs for the early jet training and saving the Yak-130s for the more advanced stuff.
Well, a restarted development of MiG AT could be powered by a derated version of the Saturn Al55, the same engine that is supposed to go on the (single engine) Indian trainer HAL HJT-36 Sitara (and that was proposed for an eventual production version of the SR-10)
The issue is that the MigAT was supposed to be a twin engine aircraft, and considerably bigger than the single engine L39. So it would only be an alternative to the larger yak 130 and not a complementary aircraft to it.
What Russia would need now as a complementary intermediate trainer between the yak152 and the yak130 would be an single engine aircraft similar to the Italian M345 (the M346 is basically a copy/parallel development of the the yak130).
I thought that the SR-10 could take that role but apparently it was never accepted by the air force.
Maybe mig can propose something in that niche.
GarryB- Posts : 38989
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The Yak-130 has two engines so there is no real need for a trainer below it to have two as well.
The purpose of twin engines in a LIFT is to learn about controlling a twin engined aircraft... the various situations where one engine is shut down and how to restart one engine and all that stuff... if they have the MiG-AT as well as the Yak-152 (turboprop single) and the Yak-130 (jet twin) then it would probably make more sense to use the RD-33 without the after burner which means 5 tons thrust which is comparable to the two Al-55s with 2.5 tons thrust each...
The amusing thing is that the Sukhoi entry for the LIFT was basically a scaled down Su-27 with one engine and used an RD-33 as well and it was rejected because they wanted a twin jet type.
The MiG was rejected because it could not fulfil the light fighter role that the Yak-130 was capable of because of its lack of weapons payload capacity... 2 tons vs 3 or 4 tons for the Yak... which ended up not really mattering anyway.
The lower operating costs of the MiG was not taken into account so the Yak won.
The purpose of twin engines in a LIFT is to learn about controlling a twin engined aircraft... the various situations where one engine is shut down and how to restart one engine and all that stuff... if they have the MiG-AT as well as the Yak-152 (turboprop single) and the Yak-130 (jet twin) then it would probably make more sense to use the RD-33 without the after burner which means 5 tons thrust which is comparable to the two Al-55s with 2.5 tons thrust each...
The amusing thing is that the Sukhoi entry for the LIFT was basically a scaled down Su-27 with one engine and used an RD-33 as well and it was rejected because they wanted a twin jet type.
The MiG was rejected because it could not fulfil the light fighter role that the Yak-130 was capable of because of its lack of weapons payload capacity... 2 tons vs 3 or 4 tons for the Yak... which ended up not really mattering anyway.
The lower operating costs of the MiG was not taken into account so the Yak won.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2414
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Exactly, the only niche for trainer aircrafts remaining is a single engine intermediate jet trainer similar in size to the old L39 and to the Italian M345.
I believe russian air force is still using L39 in that role, but they are not eternal and they need a replacement.
Mig last year presented a possible single engine fighter, but if that is a JF-17 competitor we are talking about a completely different class of aircrafts. It could be still needed, but it is something else than an intermediate trainer. (It is a similar difference as between the yak130 and the mig35)
https://www.defenseworld.net/2021/07/22/mig-shows-model-of-single-engine-light-fighter-possible-mig-21-replacement.html
I believe russian air force is still using L39 in that role, but they are not eternal and they need a replacement.
Mig last year presented a possible single engine fighter, but if that is a JF-17 competitor we are talking about a completely different class of aircrafts. It could be still needed, but it is something else than an intermediate trainer. (It is a similar difference as between the yak130 and the mig35)
https://www.defenseworld.net/2021/07/22/mig-shows-model-of-single-engine-light-fighter-possible-mig-21-replacement.html
GarryB- Posts : 38989
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Join date : 2010-03-30
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That single engined fighter design is their light fighter companion to the Su-57 PAK FA, so it is a full 5th gen fighter with internal weapon stores.
They said all along that they were still working on the aircraft but that the focus of available funds and resources would be the PAK FA to get it operational as quickly as possible, but that when serial production started then money and focus could then move to a lighter cheaper numbers aircraft that was still a 5th gen fighter to compliment the heavier platform and provide numbers and better coverage than a fewer number of heavier aircraft could provide.
They had Tu-22M3s but they still wanted Su-34/24 type strike aircraft and also Su-35 and Su-25 and MiG-35 type shorter range aircraft that could deliver guided air to ground weapons.
The JF-17 is a 4th gen MiG-21 (the MiG-21 being a third gen fighter) this new MiG design is supposed to be for the LMFS programme that was to compliment the MFI which turned into the MFS and then PAK FA.
They said all along that they were still working on the aircraft but that the focus of available funds and resources would be the PAK FA to get it operational as quickly as possible, but that when serial production started then money and focus could then move to a lighter cheaper numbers aircraft that was still a 5th gen fighter to compliment the heavier platform and provide numbers and better coverage than a fewer number of heavier aircraft could provide.
They had Tu-22M3s but they still wanted Su-34/24 type strike aircraft and also Su-35 and Su-25 and MiG-35 type shorter range aircraft that could deliver guided air to ground weapons.
The JF-17 is a 4th gen MiG-21 (the MiG-21 being a third gen fighter) this new MiG design is supposed to be for the LMFS programme that was to compliment the MFI which turned into the MFS and then PAK FA.
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