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    VKS trainer aircrafts status and needs

    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:54 am

    Russian Air Force will be left without trainers L-39

    Jets fail due to lack of spare parts. Two-thirds of them can no longer fly


    Trainer aircraft L-39, which now amount based fleet of training aircraft the Air Force of Russia, the vast majority will fail in the next 4-5 years, found "Izvestia".

    This aircraft was made in Czechoslovakia fell under the program of modernization and gradually "washed out" units of study due to physical aging and lack of spare parts, according to "Izvestia" a source in the Defense Ministry.

    - For L-39 did not take a radical upgrade, so how did the Yak-130. But today a contract for the Yak-130 crashed due to clashes between the MOD and the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) on the price of the machine, and the timing of large-scale deliveries of the aircraft is constantly shifting. A L-39 are written off in the meantime - the resource of these machines is actively consumed in training flights, and replacing them is not - the spokesman said the newspaper.

    The problem of the L-39 is linked to its origin. Czechoslovak machine with Ukrainian engine was developed in the 1960s as the primary training aircraft for the Air Force of the Warsaw Treaty Organization (WTO). After the collapse of the Warsaw Pact, and later the Soviet Union, supplies of spare parts for these machines practically ceased.

    For a long time supported the Russian Air Force fleet of L-39 by disassembling the parts of aircraft, retired to the storage, but this source is eternal, and it gradually dried up. Formally, in the Air Force today has about 300 L-39, but can rise into the air, according to some reports, no more than a third of these machines, most of them "go away" in the coming years.

    Needs in today's Air Force trainer aircraft is approximately 120 cars, but today the Russian Air Force has only 10 machines Yak-130. As you know, a contract to supply 65 aircraft of this type before 2015, which was to be signed at the MAKS-2011 in August, and has not been signed - the Defense Ministry and the KLA could not agree on price.


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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:53 am

    Well the Air Force is between a rock and a hard place.

    I would have thought that a large bulk order would be the best way to bargain with price... order 500 Yak-130s in blocks over a long term... say to 2020.

    This should allow UAC to plan and manage production and get the loans and support they need to build the planes.
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:56 am

    With the reductions in size of the VVS, we do not need nor can afford 500. 120 is the number. This plane should not cost more than $15 million.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:54 am

    If they only want another 110 then it probably would have made much more economic sense to buy the L-159s and get a licence to produce spares and engines.
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:32 pm

    It makes more industrial sense to produce an AJT here and one we can export. If timelines had been kept, this wouldn't be an issue. Failure of Irkut to keep prices down has left us in this morass.
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    Post  Pervius on Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:23 pm

    It makes more economical sense to use Ultra Light aircraft for trainers to keep flying hours on pilots.

    Keep the expensive Jet Fighters in hangars fully maintained/serviced with money saved ready to be launched when needed.


    All world countries are realizing crude oil isn't going to last forever, nor are there unlimited supplies.


    A cheapo $20,000 ultra light plane, which is just a powered hang glider...can still have its pilot use modern helmets and a small targeting pod to use laser target marking...and communications training.


    Plus you can disassemble the ultra light and throw it in the back of a pickup and launch it anywheres. To get pilots 'stick time'. Airfield landing/ departure training. Joint Ops with ground Teams...

    Cheap.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:24 am

    They already use primary training aircraft, but there is only so much training you can do in a single engined prop driven aircraft.

    With the Yak-130 they are learning not only to manage a jet aircraft, but a twin engined jet aircraft. With the greater electronic capability of the Yak they can simulate weapons delivery without expending real weapons which saves a lot of money too.

    In fact with a payload of 3 tons in lots of ways it could be a cheaper replacement for all those Mig-29s sitting in storage and all those Mig-21s and Mig-27s and Su-17s that were withdrawn for being single engined.

    With a modern radar in its nose it has the potential to be a very useful little light fighter bomber.
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    Post  eridan on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:46 am

    it is really peculiar that different countries' air forces have vastly different ratios of combat aircraft to trainers. When it comes to jet trainers, german AF has something like 3.3 combat planes per trainer. France has 6:1 ratio, US 4.4:1 and Japan 1.8:1.

    For mid range turboprop trainers it's like this: germany close to 8:1, france around 3:1, US 5:1 and Japan around 7:1.

    I am not sure about basic flight trainers, as some countries don't have them listed at all, which i think must be an omission. So it'd be unfair to compare.

    Anyhow, it might be realistic to expect that Russian AF in the end operates anywhere from 100 to 200 yak130 trainers. Also, it might need anywhere from 50 to 150 intermediate trainers. And some 50 or so basic trainers? Are there any contracts signed for development of intermediate trainers?

    for the basic trainers there was this news: http://www.janes.com/article/26115/russia-plans-mai-223-buy
    but while the type of the plane seems fitting, the number is absolutely astoundingly huge. 300 such planes for MoD? No country in the world has such a number of basic trainers. Frankly, 30 would be a more believable figure, not 300. Or 100 or something like that. Could it have been a typo?
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:21 pm

    eridan wrote:it is really peculiar that different countries' air forces have vastly different ratios of combat aircraft to trainers. When it comes to jet trainers, german AF has something like 3.3 combat planes per trainer. France has 6:1 ratio, US 4.4:1 and Japan 1.8:1.

    For mid range turboprop trainers it's like this: germany close to 8:1, france around 3:1, US 5:1 and Japan around 7:1.

    I am not sure about basic flight trainers, as some countries don't have them listed at all, which i think must be an omission. So it'd be unfair to compare.  

    Anyhow, it might be realistic to expect that Russian AF in the end operates anywhere from 100 to 200 yak130 trainers. Also, it might need anywhere from 50 to 150 intermediate trainers. And some 50 or so basic trainers? Are there any contracts signed for development of intermediate trainers?

    for the basic trainers there was this news: http://www.janes.com/article/26115/russia-plans-mai-223-buy
    but while the type of the plane seems fitting, the number is absolutely astoundingly huge. 300 such planes for MoD? No country in the world has such a number of basic trainers. Frankly, 30 would be a more believable figure, not 300. Or 100 or something like that. Could it have been a typo?
    With respect to the numbers for MAI-223 Kityonok and many other type of light aircraft, I would think the numbers may also cover the requirements for ROSTO (formerly OSOAVIAKhIM/DOSAAF) type organizations. Of course, this assumes that the VVS is actually placing purchase orders that, for example, cover ROSTO's requirements.
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    Post  franco on Sat May 21, 2016 1:38 pm

    Article on the Yak-130 unit being fully operational now at Armavir (200th). This is the second Yak-130 training unit after Borisoglebsk (209th) which also houses the new Yak-130 Demonstration Flight unit. Interesting to note that new pilots are receiving 50 hours of flight training first on the L.39C at Maikop or Tikhorestk before graduating to the Yak-130 for another 80 hours of flight training. Read several years back that there were plans for 3 Yak-130 training units. The aircraft for this third unit was just recently ordered but have not heard yet where they will be stationed. There is also a Naval Aviation training Yak-130 unit being formed at Yeisk.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1913071.html
    medo
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    Post  medo on Sat May 21, 2016 3:13 pm

    franco wrote:Article on the Yak-130 unit being fully operational now at Armavir (200th). This is the second Yak-130 training unit after Borisoglebsk (209th) which also houses the new Yak-130 Demonstration Flight unit. Interesting to note that new pilots are receiving 50 hours of flight training first on the L.39C at Maikop or Tikhorestk before graduating to the Yak-130 for another 80 hours of flight training. Read several years back that there were plans for 3 Yak-130 training units. The aircraft for this third unit was just recently ordered but have not heard yet where they will be stationed. There is also a Naval Aviation training Yak-130 unit being formed at Yeisk.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1913071.html

    Not surprised, that they still use L-39 before they go to Yak-130 trainers. I don't think pilots are ready to go from Yak-52 directly to Yak-130. They need a plane in between. For now it is L-39, in future most probably it will be SR-10. We will also see, what capabilities will new Yak-152 have. If their final capabilities will be near those of PC-9, than maybe students will be able to go directly from Yak-152 to Yak-130.

    For now I didn't see any Yak-130 in naval aviation colors. I hope they will soon get them as I think naval order is next for production.
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    Post  franco on Sat May 21, 2016 11:15 pm

    There are supposedly 5 Yak-130 already delivered to Naval Aviation. A look at the satellite image shows 3 sitting on the tarmac at Yeisk.

    As for Yak-152, believe it will replace the Yak-52 and L.39C. The SR-10 seems to be a private venture with no government involvement.
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    Post  eehnie on Sun May 22, 2016 12:27 am

    franco wrote:There are supposedly 5 Yak-130 already delivered to Naval Aviation. A look at the satellite image shows 3 sitting on the tarmac at Yeisk.

    As for Yak-152, believe it will replace the Yak-52 and L.39C. The SR-10 seems to be a private venture with no government involvement.  

    I also tend to think that it will be two steps, the Yak-152 and the Yak-130 before to try with supersonic aircrafts.

    If I'm not wrong the SR-10 was in competition with the Yak-152, but was rejected when the Yak-152 was selected. The designers are trying to open a way for the aircraft but I think military orders in Russia for this aircraft seem unlikely.
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    Post  sepheronx on Sun May 22, 2016 12:46 am

    But they stated that they will probably purchase the Sr-10 as an inbetween the Yak 130 and Yak 152
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    Post  franco on Sun May 22, 2016 1:36 am

    Who said?
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    Post  sepheronx on Sun May 22, 2016 1:40 am

    Edit: I think it was on keypub. Cant be sure. But I know there was interest in it.
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    Post  eehnie on Sun May 22, 2016 5:27 am


    From what I readed my impression is that it was more private lobbing than official interest of the Russian ministery of defense.

    Some times it happen.
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    Post  Guest on Sun May 22, 2016 5:47 am

    Yes, there are rumors it might be accepted as intermediate trainer between Yak-152 and Jak-130, however i dont think its required. Most of the armies have just entry trainers, advanced trainers and then switch to fighters, intermediate trainers are quite rare. Some even switch directly from turboprops to fighters.

    Also one thing is for sure, its not getting into service with Ivchenko AI-25s... They will have to switch to Saturn AL-55.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun May 22, 2016 6:02 am

    sepheronx wrote:Edit: I think it was on keypub.  Cant be sure.  But I know there was interest in it.

    It's probably horse-shite for these reasons:

    1.) Ukrainian engines.

    2.) Creating a niche such as a intermediate trainer is comparable to creating a solution and then finding a problem, which is no surprise because...

    3.) It's a private venture, and just take a look at the privatized MIC in the U.S. and their corrupt lobbying practices.

    4.) Forward swept wings....what's the point?


    ...VKS shouldn't waste their time on that and just purchase more Yak-130's.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 22, 2016 7:51 am

    The Yak-152 is a primary trainer with a turboprop engine, the Yak-130 is a lead in fighter trainer that has advanced flight control systems allowing it to simulate the flight performance of anything from an AN-124 to a Su-35 or PAK FA... there is no need for a cheap intermediate trainer between those two.

    The best bet for this light trainer is as a cheaper alternative to the Yak-130 for countries that don't need the sophistication of the Yak, and can't afford the operational costs of such a sophisticated light training aircraft.

    Would be a cheap light trainer for India where many of its main fighter aircraft are two seat aircraft so the level of training in light training aircraft is not so demanding.

    As an airfield hack and early trainer the SR-10 would be excellent for countries that prefer two seat operational aircraft as an intermediate step from a basic turboprop trainer to the full power fully armed two seat model fighter bomber like the Su-30MKI.

    A centre pod that simulates guided weapon use would be invaluable for the SR-10... the newer guided munitions from Russia included podded seekers that can be used for training and would be relatively cheap and simple to add to an aircraft.
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    Post  medo on Sun May 22, 2016 9:33 am

    Yak-152 and SR-10 are not in the same league of trainers. Yak-152 is primary trainer and is meant to replace old Yak-52 trainers. SR-10 is nearer to Yak-130, than to Yak-152. About the engine, AI-25 from L-39 is used for prototype and maybe it will be used as option for civil market. I have no doubt domestic serial SR-10 will use AL-55 from MiG-AT trainer, which is far more modern and economical comparing to old AI-25 and is more powerful. RuAF could buy some SR-10 trainers for evaluations and for less important units, but it will be mostly for export. Most probably main Russian customer for SR-10 will be DOSAAF, where pilots could fly in jet trainers even before they go to academy.
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    Post  kopyo-21 on Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:54 am

    I think they should consider SR-10 as intermediate step between Yak-152 and Yak-130. Its flight cost is USD 2,800 vs 8,000 of Yak-130.
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    Post  eehnie on Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:14 pm

    kopyo-21 wrote:I think they should consider SR-10 as intermediate step between Yak-152 and Yak-130. Its flight cost is USD 2,800 vs 8,000 of Yak-130.

    To be a cost effective measure it should replace training fligh hours of the Yak-130 because the Yak-152 has lower operational costs still. I'm not sure if the SR-10 has enough maneuverability for it.
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    Post  kopyo-21 on Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:59 pm

    eehnie wrote:To be a cost effective measure it should replace training fligh hours of the Yak-130 because the Yak-152 has lower operational costs still. I'm not sure if the SR-10 has enough maneuverability for it.

    SR-10 has ability to maneuver from -4 to + 10 g-load accordingly the producer. However not sure if its design matured enough to go to production & operation.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:38 am

    PS: For me, it seems difficult the introduction of a new step beatween the Yak-152 and the Yak-130.

    From what I have read the L-29 is already in that step between turboprop aircraft and LIFT, so there is no new step... just the substitution of a Russian plane for a foreign plane.

    Obviously they could have dozens of steps each slightly higher and more expensive in the training of pilots, but going from a propeller driven single engine trainer to a front line fighter is too big a step and needs to be broken down.

    The Yak-130 offers experience with high manouver capability, and twin engine management, and of course can train in advanced navigation and weapon training for rather less than the operational aircraft will cost which saves money and also reduces hours added to expensive air frames.

    Keep in mind that flight simulation training will also be used to help the pilots with their training, but a replacement for the basic jet trainer... the L29, means the transition from a propeller driven single engine aircraft to a twin engined jet can be performed on a cheaper lighter aircraft that might not have sophisticated flight performance or advanced avionics, but at that stage of training such sophisticated capabilities would be a hindrance rather than an advantage and add cost to an aircraft that should be as cheap as possible so it actually gets used... if it is too expensive to buy or operate then likely they will prefer to use simulators which are very good but not the same as the real thing.

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