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    SR-10 jet trainer

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    Militarov

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  Militarov on Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:24 pm

    I am not sure if i like the idea, i would rather see good turboprop intermediate trainer, one that could also get made into modern COIN rather than another jet trainer. Somewhat like Super Tucano, i love that thing so much Very Happy
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:51 pm

    Berkut wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:

    What... that doesnt make sense whatsoever.

    They are already buying Yak-130 as an advanced trainer, and Yak-152 is to come as primary/entry trainer... Where da hell is this thing supposed to fit in? Between them? As... intermediate trainer?


    As I already stated before, the only reason VKS could ever put that in to service is if they plan on bringing forward-swept winged aircraft in to service, such as the Su-47, otherwise there's no logical reason to put that plane in to service.

    /shitrussiadefencesays.

    Yes, SR-10 is supposed to fit between Yak-130 and 152.

    I reiterate there's no logical reason put that aircraft in to service. A major strike against the aircraft is that it's a private venture so...

    /LackofReadingComprehensionLOL Razz Embarassed
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    GarryB

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:10 am

    It is a private venture... why not just wish it success on the civilian market?

    I rather doubt it would be a replacement for the Yak-130... the Yak-130 can carry a weapon payload of 3 tons and the SR-10 has a MTOW of 2.7 tons... they are clearly not in the same class.


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    Militarov

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  Militarov on Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:16 am

    GarryB wrote:It is a private venture... why not just wish it success on the civilian market?

    I rather doubt it would be a replacement for the Yak-130... the Yak-130 can carry a weapon payload of 3 tons and the SR-10 has a MTOW of 2.7 tons... they are clearly not in the same class.

    They are not, SR-10 would fit broadly near PC-21 or A29 Super Tucano or Texan II as they are not entry priston engine trainers and are not either real advanced jet engine trainers but something in between.
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    Militarov

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    SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  Militarov on Mon May 30, 2016 5:58 pm

    "The Russian Air Force began testing a new SR-10 training aircraft in Kubinka is an air base in Moscow Oblast.

    The SR-10 is a trainer aircraft developed by a private Russian design bureau called KB SAT (modern aviation technology). SR-10 is – jet aircraft, with swept wings -10 °.

    According to the same “Engineer note,” the base variant of the aircraft provides for the equipping with the dual-flow turbojet engine AI-25TLSh, K-93 ejection seats with 0-0 capability (and safe escape up to 950 km/h), a “training efficiency” 10% higher on the average than the efficiency of its next analog – the L-39, and an operating cost much lower than the Yak-130: 2,500 USD vs 8,000 USD/fh.



    December 25, 2015 made the first flight of a prototype light jet training aircraft “SR-10”, created in the design office “modern aviation technology.”

    Potential customers can be both the Russian Air Force and Navy, as well as commercial and foreign buyers."

    Source: http://defence-blog.com/news/sr-10-a-new-training-aircraft-for-the-russian-air-force.html
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    franco

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    SR-10 being demonstrated to the VKS at Kubinka;

    Post  franco on Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:01 am

    SR-10 being demonstrated to the VKS at Kubinka;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzHiGIi0oE0

    wilhelm

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  wilhelm on Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:24 am



    I know it is being considered as a light jet trainer, positioned between the Yak 152 and 130...but I notice that there is basically very little place for weapons/weapons pylons/cannon pack.
    By weapons, I don't just mean 2 or 4 pylons for weapons, or a cannon pack for in the light ground attack role...but also for actual training in ground attack.
    The L-39 had the option, and I would have assumed that this would be a feature if it is to be also aimed at possibly trying to secure a few exports in replacing ageing L-39's...
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    GarryB

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    Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:46 am

    I suspect for the Russian market that the L39, while having weapon carrying capability would likely just use the SR-10 for its low operational costs and low airframe cost as a semi expendible step between a turboprop aircraft and a not cheap sophisticated jet trainer.

    The SR10 in this case saves money when the pilot transitions from a turboprop aircraft to a multi engined light jet... it is a step up in speed and performance, in a low cost aircraft that is cheaper to run and operate.

    I doubt they would do any weapon training in the L39 in the Russian AF, and simulation weapon training is much cheaper and will likely become more common as well.

    I am sure a belly pod could be added to the SR-10 to allow simulation of weapon and weapon targeting pod use without the actual cost of expending weapons.

    In terms of export potential that makes it more attractive as a training aircraft, though less attractive as an operation trainer that you could use as a light armed aircraft.

    I would suspect a belly mounted targeting pod and wing tip R-73s would be a fairly potent little short range dog fighter.


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    George1

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:10 am

    The project of an unmanned aircraft based on the CP-10 aircraft

    At the MAKS-2017 International Aviation and Space Salon held in Zhukovsky, LLC Modern Aircraft Technologies Design Bureau (KB SAT) presented information about the project of the AR-10 "Argument" unmanned aerial vehicle developed on the basis of the well-known light jet Training aircraft CP-10. The first prototype of the CP-10 is now being tested and also demonstrated at MAKS-2017.




    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2743742.html


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    GarryB

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:18 am

    That is an interesting idea... a small light aircraft that allows a pilot to test its flight envelope but then you take out the crew compartment and create a UCAV.

    A modern EO system mounted in the nose and a belly mounted internal rotary launcher with say 8-12 Manpad tubes or ATGM missile tubes and a light cannon like a GSh-23-2.

    A low cost light ground attack platform with air to air capability too.

    With Igla-S or Verba missiles internally it could engage targets like enemy helos and enemy UAVs and UCAVs or take out columns of enemy vehicles fairly cheaply with laser beam riding Krisantema missiles with HE warheads.

    In fact you could carry a mix of HEAT and HE Frag warhead models and perhaps even have a mix of weapons... so 6 Krisantema missiles with two carrying HEAT warheads and 4 with HE warheads for unarmoured targets and 6 Verba missiles for any air threats the aircraft comes across.

    the internal mount means no extra drag when armed... of course wingtip mounted forward looking sensors and fuel tanks could be fitted too.


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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  T-47 on Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:13 am

    GarryB wrote:That is an interesting idea... a small light aircraft that allows a pilot to test its flight envelope but then you take out the crew compartment and create a UCAV.

    A modern EO system mounted in the nose and a belly mounted internal rotary launcher with say 8-12 Manpad tubes or ATGM missile tubes and a light cannon like a GSh-23-2.

    A low cost light ground attack platform with air to air capability too.

    With Igla-S or Verba missiles internally it could engage targets like enemy helos and enemy UAVs and UCAVs or take out columns of enemy vehicles fairly cheaply with laser beam riding Krisantema missiles with HE warheads.

    In fact you could carry a mix of HEAT and HE Frag warhead models and perhaps even have a mix of weapons... so 6 Krisantema missiles with two carrying HEAT warheads and 4 with HE warheads for unarmoured targets and 6 Verba missiles for any air threats the aircraft comes across.

    the internal mount means no extra drag when armed... of course wingtip mounted forward looking sensors and fuel tanks could be fitted too.

    Why Igla or Verba? Why not R-73? Same goes for ATGMs, why ground based ATGMs instead of air based like Ataka etc.?
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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:58 am

    Why Igla or Verba? Why not R-73?

    For use against enemy UAVs it becomes a numbers and money game... Igla or Verba would be cheaper and would fit on an internal rotary launcher better than the R-73 or R-60MK.

    The universal launcher could carry the tubes of MANPADS or ATGMs.

    Same goes for ATGMs, why ground based ATGMs instead of air based like Ataka etc.?

    Krisantema is replacing the Shturm and Ataka as the standard light ATGM for the Mi-28MN AFAIK.

    It also has the advantage of a long sealed tube launcher that could be made compatible with the Igla/Verba rotary launcher that I made up.

    The key is low cost so ATAKA or even Shturm could easily be used... especially in the HE Frag models while there are still stocks of them available.


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    franco

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  franco on Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:44 pm

    According to this release from the Ministry of Defense, some SP-10's will be ordered for next year.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12146206@egNews
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:03 pm

    franco wrote:According to this release from the Ministry of Defense, some SP-10's will be ordered for next year.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12146206@egNews

    This is really good news and the beginning of procurement of something more complex for the Russian military that is coming from a private company.

    SR-10 is what i thought was the designated name though. Translators aren't best, i know.


    Do you happen to know the cost per unit of such trainers?
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    franco

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  franco on Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:02 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    franco wrote:According to this release from the Ministry of Defense, some SP-10's will be ordered for next year.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12146206@egNews

    This is really good news and the beginning of procurement of something more complex for the Russian military that is coming from a private company.

    SR-10 is what i thought was the designated name though.  Translators aren't best, i know.


    Do you happen to know the cost per unit of such trainers?

    SR-10. Good catch Embarassed It was late and I realized something was not kosher but it was escaping me. Don't know cost at all. Read once where it was mentioned they would be half the cost of a Yak-130 but I didn't consider the source to be an authority.
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    GarryB

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:12 pm

    Note sure what you mean by complex, these light jet trainers seem to be very basic and cheap.


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    miketheterrible

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:Note sure what you mean by complex, these light jet trainers seem to be very basic and cheap.

    I am referencing the fact that Russian MoD has only really been purchasing from Russian state run companies or Rostec. The fact that they are purchasing something that is actually more complex than a sniper rifle (which is the only other private weapon manufacturer I am aware of in Russia were MoD is purchasing their products, that being ORSIS) could work in favor of the business climate in Russia and entice more private companies to be interested in both the military industrial complex and civil technology development (they could possibly sell SR-10's as civil aircrafts as well, and to other customers).

    Just saying.
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    medo

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  medo on Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:25 pm

    SR-10 is a civil aircraft. Even RuAF will receive unarmed SR-10 trainers for basic training. It will be free to sell to DOSAAF and aviation clubs and maybe even some private acrobatic groubs will equip with them.
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    eehnie

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    SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  eehnie on Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:27 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Note sure what you mean by complex, these light jet trainers seem to be very basic and cheap.

    I am referencing the fact that Russian MoD has only really been purchasing from Russian state run companies or Rostec.  The fact that they are purchasing something that is actually more complex than a sniper rifle (which is the only other private weapon manufacturer I am aware of in Russia were MoD is purchasing their products, that being ORSIS) could work in favor of the business climate in Russia and entice more private companies to be interested in both the military industrial complex and civil technology development (they could possibly sell SR-10's as civil aircrafts as well, and to other customers).

    Just saying.

    KB SAT is until now only a design bureau if I'm not wrong. Now would need to develop its own facilities for serial production, or would need to sign agreements with state plants of aircraft production, agreements that not necessarily will be kind with KB SAT, taking into account that this aircraft would be taking part of the potential future orders of the Yak-130 and the Yak-152.

    Still not an easy way for this aircraft until to reach the Russian Armed Forces. But this is a step to take into account.

    In the public-private companies debate, I do not think private companies are better than public companies because of being private. In fact, to have full control of the companies that design and produce the key armament is positive for Russia. State companies also work with private companies as suppliers.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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    George1

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  George1 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:46 am

    Russia’s newest trainer jets SR10 to start replacing old L39 aircraft in #RuAF in 2018, mass production scheduled for 2019

    https://twitter.com/EmbassyofRussia/status/922736862812401664


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    GarryB

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    Re: SR-10 jet trainer

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:11 pm

    So it uses the Saturn AL-55 engine.. interesting.


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