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    Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

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    GarryB

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:49 am

    Hmm but using small helo for air2air combat? I am not sure maybe for drone self defence but in case of Pantsir -M not really needed IMHO

    A pod with wings that have R-73s, quad packs of Iglas, and gun pods would be useful for an air patrol version of the aircraft... it would basically just be a wing and perhaps extra fuel tank for the pod so it would not be that heavy and should have good speed and range and reasonable altitude performance.

    Replace the R-73s with 7 shot 80mm rocket pods designed for light aircraft with that new laser aiming system they have developed for adding laser guidance to unguided weapons systems and you would have a useful little gunship.

    Remember this is a patrol ship so it would be dealing with illegal fishing and smuggling and drug runners on all sorts of platforms.

    This is what i meant about modular construction

    I am familiar with the aircraft.... Smile

    I remember calling it Thunderbird 2...

    Well on ship od 1000t class additional 15t freed by guns and helo means more autonomy or more Kalibr containers

    For a long range patrol/operations it is just as likely the extra 15 tons saved would just be used for more ammo... but the main issue would be that having a lighter gun sometimes means having to use more ammo to get the same effect they would have with a heavier weapon. As NATO found in Afghanistan having twice as much smaller calibre ammo can lead to the enemy changing tactics to render the lighter ammo ineffective by attacking from greater distances... or using larger calibre weapons to get a range advantage.

    Of course for many missions it might not matter at all...

    Furthermore, do not expect Naval Pantsir systems on stealthy ships. It will ruin the low RCS of the ships. Makes no sense.

    I remember they mentioned that there were two versions of the new Pantsirs they were working on... one for upgraded existing types that was not very stealthy and another system perhaps more modular and stealthy.

    in case of working alone of escorting ships AD wiht 15km of ceiling is good to kill carrier of weapons not bomb or missile. anyway pozhyviom uvidim

    Also the range of 20-40km in the later models is very attractive for very small boats to defend themselves from helos and light aircraft... (means instead of just shooting down missiles they can take down aircraft before they launch... which is much more efficient...)


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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Hmm but using small helo for air2air combat? I am not sure maybe for drone self defence but in case of Pantsir -M not really needed IMHO

    A pod with wings that have R-73s, quad packs of Iglas, and gun pods would be useful for an air patrol version of the aircraft... it would basically just be a wing and perhaps extra fuel tank for the pod so it would not be that heavy and should have good speed and range and reasonable altitude performance.

    Replace the R-73s with 7 shot 80mm rocket pods designed for light aircraft with that new laser aiming system they have developed for adding laser guidance to unguided weapons systems and you would have a useful little gunship.

    Talking about gunship drones for stopping smugglers, just guns no missile pads effective though Smile




    GarryB wrote:
    I am familiar with the aircraft....  Smile I remember calling it Thunderbird 2...


    naaaah won´t fit on 22160 Razz

    GarryB wrote:
    Well on ship od 1000t class additional 15t freed by guns and helo means more autonomy or more Kalibr containers

    For a long range patrol/operations it is just as likely the extra 15 tons saved would just be used for more ammo... but the main issue would be that having a lighter gun sometimes means having to use more ammo to get the same effect they would have with a heavier weapon. As NATO found in Afghanistan having twice as much smaller calibre ammo can lead to the enemy changing tactics to render the lighter ammo ineffective by attacking from greater distances... or using larger calibre weapons to get a range advantage.

    Of course for many missions it might not matter at all...


    Indeed, my assumption was that gun is not the main weapon not even for shelling bunkers on shore. For long range attack 8 (or 16 if 4x4containers installed) Calibrs. Gun here I see as AAD or CIWS role, or pirate surprise. AADd -higher verticala range than 76mm and 2,5 higher fire rate shall do the job.

    In role of CIWS - high rate of fire is better, caliber 57mm too small? Germans lately build system based on 35mm Oerlikon guns to protect militaru camps/installations against artillery or mortar missiles ! so 57mm should deal with this as well. Of course I can be wrong and you right (in such case I will never admit it Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil )




    Furthermore, do not expect Naval Pantsir systems on stealthy ships. It will ruin the low RCS of the ships. Makes no sense.

    I remember they mentioned that there were two versions of the new Pantsirs they were working on... one for upgraded existing types that was not very stealthy and another system perhaps more modular and stealthy.

    in case of working alone of escorting ships AD wiht 15km of ceiling is good to kill carrier of weapons not bomb or missile. anyway pozhyviom uvidim

    Also the range of 20-40km in the later models is very attractive for very small boats to defend themselves from helos and light aircraft... (means instead of just shooting down missiles they can take down aircraft before they launch... which is much more efficient...)[/quote]
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    GarryB

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:24 pm


    Indeed, my assumption was that gun is not the main weapon not even for shelling bunkers on shore. For long range attack 8 (or 16 if 4x4containers installed) Calibrs. Gun here I see as AAD or CIWS role, or pirate surprise. AADd -higher verticala range than 76mm and 2,5 higher fire rate shall do the job.

    Kalibrs are useful against countries, but in the normal routine patrol mission they are not much use... you can't get a ships captain to stop their vessel punching 400kgs of HE into its side at a million dollars a shot.

    A 76.2mm gun however can be fired into the sea in front of a ship to tell that ships captain you mean business without murdering any of his crew or sinking his ship.

    Of course if you want to do serious damage you still can... a few 6kg HE shells into his bridge will stop any ship.

    In role of CIWS - high rate of fire is better, caliber 57mm too small? Germans lately build system based on 35mm Oerlikon guns to protect militaru camps/installations against artillery or mortar missiles ! so 57mm should deal with this as well. Of course I can be wrong and you right

    Yes and no. the smaller calibre allows a very high rate of fire in a short burst so if the target turns or slows down or speeds up in the seconds between your gun firing and impact then the spread of shells means you still will likely get a hit. With heavier rounds like the 57mm guns the advantage there is guided shells so if the target turns or changes speed the round fired can manouver and compensate for that and still have a good chance of a hit/kill.

    Instead of firing a 200 round burst as with Kashtan... you can get away with firing one or two rounds of 57mm shells that are guided and still have a very good probability of a hit... 57mm shells are huge but take up less space than 200 30mm cannon shells.

    the thing is that a larger shell like a 76.2mm round can also be guided but will have more punch with a heavier round and greater range and altitude.

    Against some larger targets the heavier shells will also be more effective.

    to give you an example in Afghanistan in the 1980s the soviets found when the muj built rock piles in the mouth of caves that their rifle fire could not penetrate. 30mm grenades however blew the rock walls down and scattered the rock fragments around like extra shrapnel. the HE power of the 30mm grenades was rather more effective than smaller calibre lighter rounds.

    Of course I can be wrong and you right

    Just a discussion... there is no right and wrong... just opinion... which can change with new information.  Smile

    The very high acceleration of the Pantsir range missiles means it really needs to be in an external turret that can be pointed at the target before the main booster fires.

    the only other option would be vertical launch where the missile is blasted up into the air and gas generators (side thruster rockets) roll the missile to point in the direction of the target before the main booster rapidly accelerates the missile away.

    If you do that then the gun component of the system could be a few Duet mounts and the radar and EO systems incorporated into the existing ship systems. The advantage of vertical launch is that you could also carry Morfei missiles with IIR seekers and lock on after launch capability for fire and forget capability against very short range targets along with several twin barrel gatlings.

    Of course with Morfei you could replace the 30mm gatlings which are primarily for very close in self defence and use a larger calibre gun that would be useful for a range of other tasks that 30mm is not so useful for.


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    ult

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  ult on Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:40 am

    Dmitriy Rogachev. (2nd ship)



    From the interview with Director General of Zelenodolsk Plant - the first 6 22160 corvettes are contracted. First one will be delivered in 2017, 2 in 2018, 2 in 2019 and 1 in 2020. They will have Kolomna engines and Zvezda reduction gears. There are talks about signing a contract for additional 6 of the ice class.

    http://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/147574/

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  ult on Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:50 pm

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    George1

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:09 am

    i found out that this project is the one intended as "anti-piracy" ship. Thats why the basic version will have no missiles and also will be stationed in BSF

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150530/1022745984.html#ixzz3bcWPfsYU

    Vasily Bykov is the lead ship


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    George1

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:38 am



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    wilhelm

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  wilhelm on Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:30 am

    Below deck hangar?
    I note the MTU diesels are still listed, which I think are no longer being considered?
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:05 am

    wilhelm wrote:Below deck hangar?

    I think it would have a partially telescopic, above-deck hanger.

    The hatches for below-deck access are for 2 X 4 containerized launchers for the Kalibr-NK missile systems.

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  wilhelm on Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:27 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    wilhelm wrote:Below deck hangar?

    I think it would have a partially telescopic, above-deck hanger.

    The hatches for below-deck access are for 2 X 4 containerized launchers for the Kalibr-NK missile systems.

    Thanks...that makes more sense on a vessel of this size.
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    George1

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:12 pm

    Russia to Lay Down Third Project 22160 Patrol Ship on Thursday - Navy

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160215/1034798788/navy-ship-project.html#ixzz40Fn7t7Ty


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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  George1 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:26 am

    Laid third patrol vessel project 22160

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1748163.html

    Some points on these ships from the article:

    1. Firstly, in the Russian Navy still had no specialized patrol boats.
    2. Secondly, the project is 22160 - the first Russian ship created a modular design: it will be possible to change the equipment and weapons, depending on the task ahead. The ship is designed to protect territorial waters, economic zone, patrol in open and closed seas, combat smuggling and piracy, search and assistance to victims of maritime accidents, for environmental monitoring, protection of ships and vessels, naval bases and water areas.
    3. 22160 Expected characteristics are:
    Displacement - 1300 t,
    Autonomy - 60 days,
    Speed - up to 30 knots,
    Crew - 80 people.
    Base for helicopter.
    Basic armament artillery, anti-aircraft and anti-missile weapons.
    Main dimensions: 94 × 14 × 3,4 meters.
    4. It is believed that the project 22160 ships will be able to perform tasks at any point in the world's oceans. However, experts say they kind of representative status: to deliver a powerful blow or fend off a serious enemy they can not, but will show the flag and "replace" in peace-time operations (for example, anti-piracy), a powerful and well-armed ships, which will be followed by saving resource.
    5. Navy Commander Viktor Chirkov said - "The ship is not very big, but in theory he has great endurance and good sea-keeping. This patrol vessel to indicate our presence in all parts of the world and to fight against piracy. That will result in the construction of the series, we have yet to see."
    6. The Zelenodolsk planned to build 12 ships of Project 22160. The first six, most likely, will go to the Black Sea Fleet, but it will serve and in the Mediterranean Sea. First couple of 22160 will pass to the Navy in 2017, two more - in 2018, two - in 2019 and one - in 2020.
    7, Speaking of export prospects, the ship is already strong advertised at all kinds of naval stores.


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    max steel

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  max steel on Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:38 pm

    George1 wrote:

    these ones carry UKSK and have a very respectable air defense) and this clearly indicates that Russia is building here Navy "from the shore" thus indicating a very defensive posture.
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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  max steel on Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:49 pm

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun May 08, 2016 1:11 pm

    4th unit of the class has been laid down.

    Name is SERGEY KOTOV

    http://www.tatar-inform.ru/news/2016/05/08/502882/
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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  George1 on Sun May 08, 2016 11:56 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:4th unit of the class has been laid down.

    Name is SERGEY KOTOV

    http://www.tatar-inform.ru/news/2016/05/08/502882/

    Yes.



    and here are the specifications:



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1890864.html


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    Austin

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  Austin on Mon May 09, 2016 12:21 pm

    Laid patrol ship "Sergei Kotov" the fourth Russian Navy patrol boat project 22160

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1890864.html

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:56 pm

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    Project 22160

    Post  Project Canada on Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:22 pm



    Russian Navy to Get First Advanced Project 22160 Modular Patrol Ship in 2017

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160901/1044846220/russian-navy-22160.html
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    franco

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  franco on Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:56 pm

    MOSCOW, September 1 -. RIA Novosti Head patrol boat project 22160 "Vasily Bykov," armed with cruise missiles "Caliber", will be transferred to the Navy in 2017, he told RIA Novosti CEO of Zelenodolsk Gorky plant Renat Mistahov.

    Russian Navy will receive six new patrol ships until 2019

    There will be six patrol ships of project 22160 built for the Russian Navy until 2020, which will become part of the Black Sea Fleet.

    "Under the state contract surrender the lead ship of the project 22160 is scheduled for 2017," - he said on the eve of Mistahov international military-technical forum "Army 2016", which will be held in Moscow Kubinka from 6 to 11 September.

    He said that the project 22160 - the first ships in Russia, built in a modular fashion: they can change the equipment and weapons, depending on the task ahead.

    Patrol ships of the project 22160 are able to reach speeds of 30 knots, have a displacement of about 1.3 thousand tons, the number of crew of about 80 people. The cruising range of the ship's six thousand nautical miles. To effectively carry out the tasks as intended ships as standard weapons are launchers of cruise missiles "Caliber", 57-mm artillery installation, anti-aircraft missile systems, machine guns. The ship provides the possibility of basing the helicopter Ka-27PS.
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    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:52 pm

    I find this class quite confusing unshaven

    For long range patrol sure, but does Russia really need 6 of them in the Black Sea Fleet & none elsewhere?
    I'd kind of assumed something like 2 each for Baltic/Pacific/BSF or 3 each BSF/Pacific but only noticed now that all 6 are planned for BSF.

    We know about the containerised Kalibr which provides a bunch of optional extra longrange BSF firepower but I've seen some reference to modular MCM/ASW packs & if those are indeed in the works then these ships will make much more sense as kinda LCSski (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way).

    But then if they work well in that multi-role mode then again I wonder why only for BSF?
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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:46 pm

    hoom wrote:I find this class quite confusing  unshaven

    For long range patrol sure, but does Russia really need 6 of them in the Black Sea Fleet & none elsewhere?
    I'd kind of assumed something like 2 each for Baltic/Pacific/BSF or 3 each BSF/Pacific but only noticed now that all 6 are planned for BSF.

    We know about the containerised Kalibr which provides a bunch of optional extra longrange BSF firepower but I've seen some reference to modular MCM/ASW packs & if those are indeed in the works then these ships will make much more sense as kinda LCSski (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way).

    But then if they work well in that multi-role mode then again I wonder why only for BSF?

    BSF needs replace aging fleet in fastest pace. Patrol boats on top of Buyans is strangest ot me. I´d prefer 22160 instead of Buyans, hope containers with AAD and ASW can be still added-

    BTW with 6k miles range they can sail in Mediterranem or south Africa, Indian Ocean.
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    medo

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  medo on Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:10 pm

    Buyan in Black sea fleet is not strange choice. It is sea-river class corvette and could patrol deep inside Don river and could sail into Caspian sea and Caspian Buyans could sail in Black sea. It is perfect to patrol in Black sea and in Caspian sea and to sail in big Don and Volga rivers. 22160 is open ocean patrol sea and is perect for Black sea and Batic fleets. When Black sea fleet Will have 22160 ships, than they will not need to send Buyans to Mediterranean sea as they Will have enough Grigorovich frigates and 22160 patrol ships to do that job.
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    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:57 am

    Does anyone know what the deal is with the engines on this class?

    I've seen some references to CoDaD with presumably domestic engines, but there are other sources which talk about M-70 (ie will be waiting on engines from Saturn) eg
    (also says MTU for the Diesels...)
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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:49 am

    medo wrote:Buyan in Black sea fleet is not strange choice. It is sea-river class corvette and could patrol deep inside Don river and could sail into Caspian sea and Caspian Buyans could sail in Black sea. It is perfect to patrol in Black sea and in Caspian sea and to sail in big Don and Volga rivers. 22160 is open ocean patrol sea and is perect for Black sea and Batic fleets. When Black sea fleet Will have 22160 ships, than they will not need to send Buyans to Mediterranean sea as they Will have enough Grigorovich frigates and 22160 patrol ships to do that job.

    and why 22800 on top? 22160 isnt similar class and characteristics?

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