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    Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

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    Zivo

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  Zivo on Mon May 23, 2016 3:24 am

    Werewolf wrote:There will never be stealth helicopters because regardless how big your helicopter is Mi-2 or Mi-26 the main rotor is the biggest RCS source due to the methods used by ground radars of calculating the relative position and the pace it takes from the first and second and all following measurements of their current position. To lower the RCS it would need to lower the RCS of the rotor blades which creates a lot of problems, those are AERODYNAMIC objects and have to follow aerodynamic laws and not RCS reducing of their shape or materials. They are the highest stressed parts on all helicopters along the gear box and turbines, so no measurements can make it such a low RCS source as you would need to operate it in the new 5th gen defined environment, to fly them high enough to gain speed but not high enough to be exposed to ground forces LOS/radar (50-150 or 400m altitude to have effective capabilities against other air targets.) The role it should have according to their requirements is to have more direct involvement versus other air targets, a much higher speed is obviously required, a reduced weight and with it armor is most probably  a consequence so we will see them as a niche among attack helicopters rather then a replacement.

    Reduced RCS helicopters? Yes! Stealth helicopters? No!

    Not so fast, theoretically, the Ka-90 could be made to be "stealth", but only in the high speed folded rotor configuration.

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    Werewolf

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  Werewolf on Mon May 23, 2016 10:06 am

    That design first has to be proven that it functions not to mention that i highly doubt it is what it is suppossed to be. I think there is a big misconception about this design and how it suppossed to function.
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    Zivo

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  Zivo on Mon May 23, 2016 6:58 pm

    Werewolf wrote:That design first has to be proven that it functions not to mention that i highly doubt it is what it is suppossed to be. I think there is a big misconception about this design and how it suppossed to function.

    I highly doubt that a prototype aircraft based on this model would be an effective gunship. But conceptually, a similar design with a folding rotor would resolve the issues with radar reflection.
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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  OminousSpudd on Mon May 23, 2016 8:28 pm

    Zivo wrote:...the Ka-90 could be made to be "stealth", but only in the high speed folded rotor configuration.
    Could someone explain what is meant by this? I have never heard of the concept before.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  Werewolf on Mon May 23, 2016 8:49 pm

    Zivo wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:That design first has to be proven that it functions not to mention that i highly doubt it is what it is suppossed to be. I think there is a big misconception about this design and how it suppossed to function.

    I highly doubt that a prototype aircraft based on this model would be an effective gunship. But conceptually, a similar design with a folding rotor would resolve the issues with radar reflection.

    That is why this concept has to be proven first to fly and then worth to be useful for military purpose.

    Could someone explain what is meant by this? I have never heard of the concept before.

    The concept is a rotor system with folding blades while flying. The concept is to fly like a normal helicopter and as soon as it reachs its flight speed of transition the rotor blades become small wings and are extented from the body and keep folding further back in tailboom position, the higher the speed. The concept more or less for high speed like on Su-24 like jets with wings that are extented in slow speeds to produce lift but with higher speeds lift is enough but the friction of the extented wings are getting a hinderance so they swing them back to reduce friction and increase with it potential for speed. A concept that in theory sound great but is coupled with enormous problems of a developing a rotor head that can produce lift and then transform to wings without affecting the flight itself to the negative, let alone actually produce enough lift in its folded design.
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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  OminousSpudd on Tue May 24, 2016 7:05 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Could someone explain what is meant by this? I have never heard of the concept before.
    The concept is a rotor system with folding blades while flying. The concept is to fly like a normal helicopter and as soon as it reachs its flight speed of transition the rotor blades become small wings and are extented from the body and keep folding further back in tailboom position, the higher the speed. The concept more or less for high speed like on Su-24 like jets with wings that are extented in slow speeds to produce lift but with higher speeds lift is enough but the friction of the extented wings are getting a hinderance so they swing them back to reduce friction and increase with it potential for speed. A concept that in theory sound great but is coupled with enormous problems of a developing a rotor head that can produce lift and then transform to wings without affecting the flight itself to the negative, let alone actually produce enough lift in its folded design.
    Ahh, sounds interesting thank you Werewolf. I'd assume that given the amount of engineering the V-22 Osprey had simply to get that VTOL/STOL capability on turboprops, and even then with the final product being abysmal at best, that the concept you described is indeed a nightmare. Mind, that was a US defense project, not exactly known for reliability or cost effectiveness.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 24, 2016 8:44 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:.................
    Ahh, sounds interesting thank you Werewolf. I'd assume that given the amount of engineering the V-22 Osprey had simply to get that VTOL/STOL capability on turboprops, and even then with the final product being abysmal at best, that the concept you described is indeed a nightmare. Mind, that was a US defense project, not exactly known for reliability or cost effectiveness.

    If they can figure out some simple and rugged system to handle the folding part it could be done but holy hell it will be tall order.
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    hoom

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  hoom on Thu May 26, 2016 5:12 am

    In-flight transition to folded rotors seems incredibly unlikely.
    US has been experimenting with that kind of thing for ages, neither Sikorsky S-72 nor the more recent Boeing X-50 got close to transitioning from rotor to fixed let alone folding in-flight.

    With US/EU both apparently heading toward contra-rotors + pusher & Russia already having lots of operational experience with contra-rotors, I'd be hoping that they are heading along that fairly conservative line instead.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 26, 2016 1:12 pm

    Inflight folding rotors is a stupid idea... when the rotors start to fold they will stop generating lift and the aircraft will drop like a stone.

    If you mean automatically folding rotors where you land and then press a button and the rotors fold up automatically then the Ka-25 and Helix series has been doing that with coaxial rotors for half a century...



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    x_54_u43

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  x_54_u43 on Thu May 26, 2016 3:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:Inflight folding rotors is a stupid idea... when the rotors start to fold they will stop generating lift and the aircraft will drop like a stone.

    If you mean automatically folding rotors where you land and then press a button and the rotors fold up automatically then the Ka-25 and Helix series has been doing that with coaxial rotors for half a century...


    Seriously? The concept of in flight folding rotors is to allow for a speed increase, the lift generation would have been provided by other fixed wings or by a lifting body at sufficient speeds.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  Werewolf on Thu May 26, 2016 7:23 pm

    hoom wrote:In-flight transition to folded rotors seems incredibly unlikely.
    US has been experimenting with that kind of thing for ages, neither Sikorsky S-72 nor the more recent Boeing X-50 got close to transitioning from rotor to fixed let alone folding in-flight.

    With US/EU both apparently heading toward contra-rotors + pusher & Russia already having lots of operational experience with contra-rotors, I'd be hoping that they are heading along that fairly conservative line instead.

    Yes, the problems with such a design would be several times fold. The intertial momentum from blades turning have to be compensated immidiatley to fold them up to provide fixed-wing like lift within a very small time or they will take forever to compensate and transform from rotating to fixed wings forever and will drop like stone. The solutions to both are no solutions at all.  Either fatal result with death of machine and occupants from slow transformation from rotating to fixed wings or immense logistical, economical and matter integrity point of view.

    I can not imagine to have such system work whatsoever, not without fixed wings installed on it like on UH-60 schnellsky prototype or Mi-24 generating lift, stubbed wings with extented and more dedicated purpose to do so, but that would bring the entire KA-90 scheme to a dead end. So why propose such a scheme in first place?
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    Zivo

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  Zivo on Fri May 27, 2016 1:03 am

    Werewolf wrote:

    Yes, the problems with such a design would be several times fold. The intertial momentum from blades turning have to be compensated immidiatley to fold them up to provide fixed-wing like lift within a very small time or they will take forever to compensate and transform from rotating to fixed wings forever and will drop like stone. The solutions to both are no solutions at all.  Either fatal result with death of machine and occupants from slow transformation from rotating to fixed wings or immense logistical, economical and matter integrity point of view.

    I can not imagine to have such system work whatsoever, not without fixed wings installed on it like on UH-60 schnellsky prototype or Mi-24 generating lift, stubbed wings with extented and more dedicated purpose to do so, but that would bring the entire KA-90 scheme to a dead end. So why propose such a scheme in first place?

    Autorotation during the transitional phase may be adequate enough to maintain lift even while the drive is disconnected, allowing for a much larger transitional window.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  Werewolf on Fri May 27, 2016 1:10 am

    Zivo wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    Yes, the problems with such a design would be several times fold. The intertial momentum from blades turning have to be compensated immidiatley to fold them up to provide fixed-wing like lift within a very small time or they will take forever to compensate and transform from rotating to fixed wings forever and will drop like stone. The solutions to both are no solutions at all.  Either fatal result with death of machine and occupants from slow transformation from rotating to fixed wings or immense logistical, economical and matter integrity point of view.

    I can not imagine to have such system work whatsoever, not without fixed wings installed on it like on UH-60 schnellsky prototype or Mi-24 generating lift, stubbed wings with extented and more dedicated purpose to do so, but that would bring the entire KA-90 scheme to a dead end. So why propose such a scheme in first place?

    Autorotation during the transitional phase may be adequate enough to maintain lift even while the drive is disconnected, allowing for a much larger transitional window.

    That would require a high altitude transition, since you would still lose altitude during autorotation and then you would still have a time window where the folding mechanism has to adjust itself from rotating to fixed wing, if that happens with instant movement it has to compensate the momentum which is a big concern aswell if it takes to much time then it will either tilt or lose to quick altitude. Either way, not an easy concept not even in theory.
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    Zivo

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  Zivo on Fri May 27, 2016 2:54 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    Yes, the problems with such a design would be several times fold. The intertial momentum from blades turning have to be compensated immidiatley to fold them up to provide fixed-wing like lift within a very small time or they will take forever to compensate and transform from rotating to fixed wings forever and will drop like stone. The solutions to both are no solutions at all.  Either fatal result with death of machine and occupants from slow transformation from rotating to fixed wings or immense logistical, economical and matter integrity point of view.

    I can not imagine to have such system work whatsoever, not without fixed wings installed on it like on UH-60 schnellsky prototype or Mi-24 generating lift, stubbed wings with extented and more dedicated purpose to do so, but that would bring the entire KA-90 scheme to a dead end. So why propose such a scheme in first place?

    Autorotation during the transitional phase may be adequate enough to maintain lift even while the drive is disconnected, allowing for a much larger transitional window.

    That would require a high altitude transition, since you would still lose altitude during autorotation and then you would still have a time window where the folding mechanism has to adjust itself from rotating to fixed wing, if that happens with instant movement it has to compensate the momentum which is a big concern aswell if it takes to much time then it will either tilt or lose to quick altitude. Either way, not an easy concept not even in theory.

    With a pusher engine, you shouldn't lose altitude like a normal helicopter. When the power is cut to the main rotor, the Ka-90 would essentially operate as a gyrocopter. The rotors could be slowed through braking to form a horizontal wing, but there's no way to say whether or not a transition done this way is viable, until it's actually tested.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  Werewolf on Fri May 27, 2016 11:00 am

    Yes, i aggree. I just have problems with that concept of Ka-90 without having details nor the parts we talked about to accomplish such technology. Let's see what they come up with or if they drop this concept all together.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 28, 2016 10:29 am

    Seriously? The concept of in flight folding rotors is to allow for a speed increase, the lift generation would have been provided by other fixed wings or by a lifting body at sufficient speeds.

    Ahh, you are talking about a Ka-90 type that has rotor blades that can be used as swept wings at high speed... has that ever actually been done?

    Thing is that the main problem there is that an aircraft wing is wide to be effective as a fixed surface... and a helicopter blade is narrow and there are lots of them... most Kamovs have two sets of three blades so a total of 6 blades... you not only have to stop them in flight but also get them to all generate lift at the same time as they fold together... sounds incredibly complex and ultimately fruitless.

    Leave helos and helos and use fixed wing aircraft.


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    George1

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  George1 on Sat May 28, 2016 12:08 pm

    Ka-90 i think its a civilian project


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    Zivo

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  Zivo on Sat May 28, 2016 5:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Seriously? The concept of in flight folding rotors is to allow for a speed increase, the lift generation would have been provided by other fixed wings or by a lifting body at sufficient speeds.

    Ahh, you are talking about a Ka-90 type that has rotor blades that can be used as swept wings at high speed... has that ever actually been done?

    Thing is that the main problem there is that an aircraft wing is wide to be effective as a fixed surface... and a helicopter blade is narrow and there are lots of them... most Kamovs have two sets of three blades so a total of 6 blades... you not only have to stop them in flight but also get them to all generate lift at the same time as they fold together... sounds incredibly complex and ultimately fruitless.

    Leave helos and helos and use fixed wing aircraft.

    I believe the Ka-90 has just two wider-than-normal blades.

    When an airfoil is being designed, it has to be able to generate enough lift at low speed to get the aircraft off the ground during takeoff. But at higher velocity, less surface area is needed to generate the same amount of lift. Since the Ka-90 takes off like a helicopter, it doesn't have the same low velocity lift requirements, so the blades wont need much surface area. Cruise missiles only need stub wings for the same reasons.

    Ka-90 i think its a civilian project

    I think it's a demonstrator, proof of concept.
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    George1

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  George1 on Tue May 16, 2017 1:08 pm

    Russian design bureau developing new coaxial helicopter for defense needs

    A flying laboratory has been developed as part of a promising fast-speed helicopter to test all the innovations

    MOSCOW, May 16. /TASS/. The Kamov design bureau is developing a new coaxial helicopter for defense missions to fly at a speed of over 500 km/hr, Director of the Aviation Industry Department at Russia’s Industry and Trade Ministry Sergei Yemelyanov said on Tuesday.

    "Two types of work are currently under way. It has already been determined that a helicopter based on the monoaxial scheme can develop a speed of 450 km/hr. Higher speeds can’t be achieved so far using the monoaxial scheme. At the same time, the Kamov design bureau is developing a coaxial machine to have a speed of over 500 km/hr. This is being done in the interests of the Defense Ministry," he said.

    "A flying laboratory has been developed as part of a promising fast-speed helicopter to test all the innovations," he added.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/946053


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    George1

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  George1 on Sat May 27, 2017 7:08 am

    Russia’s new high-speed military helicopter to make maiden flight by 2025

    Technical specifications for the advanced helicopter have already been determined are being studied in detail by Russian Helicopters

    MOSCOW, May 25. /TASS/. An advanced high-speed military helicopter is scheduled to make its maiden flight by 2025, Russia’s deputy defense minister Yuri Borisov said during the HeliRussia-2017 exhibition on Thursday.

    "Our new state arms procurement program (for 2018-2025) envisages a research and development project, and we expect a high-speed aircraft to take off before the deadline of this program," Borisov said.

    Technical specifications for the advanced helicopter have already been determined are being studied in detail by Russia’s helicopter designer and manufacturer Russian Helicopters. "This project has been scheduled and will be implemented," Borisov said.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/947733


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    Firebird

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    I've read a couple of articles talking about a new Russian chopper in development.

    Post  Firebird on Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:54 pm

    I've read a couple of articles talking about a new Russian chopper in development.
    Talk of 600kph, low observability and "5g". This sounds more than a little revolutionary. Also that it was due for release in 2017 or so.

    https://rostechnologiesblog.wordpress.com/2013/12/20/russia-to-complete-5g-helicopter-development-in-3-years/

    https://sputniknews.com/military/20131219185741567-Russia-to-Develop-5th-Generation-Attack-Helicopter-by-2017/

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/727048/Russian-military-Vladimir-Putin-Night-Hunter-helicopter-gunship-Apache

    600kph is a gigantic speed upgrade. Is this close to production or have people been misinterpreting/mistranslating orginal articles?
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    George1

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    Re: Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    Post  George1 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:18 am

    Contract for the formation of the concept of high-speed combat helicopter SBV

    Helicopters of Russia JSC (part of Rostekh State Corporation) reported on August 24, 2017 that within the framework of the International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" signed a contract with the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation to formulate the concept of a high-speed combat helicopter (SBV).

    The contract between the Helicopters of Russia and the RF Ministry of Defense provides for the work on determining the technical appearance of a prospective high-speed combat helicopter. Development of this direction is currently carried out by the design bureaus that are part of the holding. The works use the reserve accumulated in the course of performing previous research works, including the results of flight tests of the flying laboratory of a prospective high-speed helicopter with a new rotor.

    "By the present moment the holding has developed a serious scientific and technical reserve on the project of a promising high-speed helicopter. The indicators and experience gained during the tests, both we and the Defense Ministry were deemed sufficient to move on to the next stage - the formation of the concept of a high-speed combat helicopter. The contract concluded today is a serious step in a new generation of helicopter industry with higher speeds and performance characteristics, "noted Andrey Boginsky, the general director of the holding company" Russian Helicopters ".

    The contract is designed for two years, according to the results of its execution, the shape of the SBV should be determined and a technical task for carrying out development work is formed.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2810157.html


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