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    Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:16 am

    Patent of a Russian high speed helicopter as seen in the last Kamov proposal

    https://patents.google.com/patent/RU168554U1/en

    From http://charly015.blogspot.com/

    Interesting analysis of design principles and comparison with S-97
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    Post  George1 on Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:03 pm

    LMFS wrote:Patent of a Russian high speed helicopter as seen in the last Kamov proposal

    https://patents.google.com/patent/RU168554U1/en

    From http://charly015.blogspot.com/

    Interesting analysis of design principles and comparison with S-97

    its an old file, 2+ years ago
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:16 am

    THE SOURCE TOLD ABOUT THE RUSSIAN PROJECT OF HIGH-SPEED HELICOPTER

    MOSCOW November 19 - RIA News. The project of the Russian prospective high-speed helicopter, capable of speeds up to 400 kilometers per hour, was successfully defended by the Russian Defense Ministry, it chose the uniaxial scheme of the machine of the Mil Design Bureau, a source familiar with the project told RIA Novosti on Monday.

    "The project in the Ministry of Defense presented and successfully defended, eventually settled on the uniaxial scheme of Mile. While we are talking about a car that can reach speeds of 400 kilometers per hour," said the agency interlocutor.
    Earlier, the director general of the Russian Helicopters holding company, Andrei Boginsky, told reporters that the company plans to present the concept of a promising high-speed helicopter to the Ministry of Defense by November.

    The head of the company noted that the flying laboratory to create a promising high-speed helicopter (PSV) based on the Mi-24, which first flew into the air in January 2017, reached a speed of about 400 kilometers per hour.



    РИА Новости https://ria.ru/arms/20181119/1533053475.html

    Mil won!
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:48 pm

    dino00 wrote:THE SOURCE TOLD ABOUT THE RUSSIAN PROJECT OF HIGH-SPEED HELICOPTER

    РИА Новости https://ria.ru/arms/20181119/1533053475.html

    Mil won!
    I wonder if this is not a two-step program. The new rotor tested on the modified Mi-24 could be applied "as of now" on new and even existing helicopters, increasing their speed 10-15%. And Mil could not be left out of the promising high-speed business. But Kamov's proposals look like they have much more potential for medium and long term IMHO...
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:56 pm

    Was what i hoped for.
    The Kamov project could BE a best-seller in the long Run.

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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:20 pm


    Mil project is more conventional and easier to bring to serial production.

    Also, test platform was able to achieve 400kph with standard rotor setup (no pusher propeller) which is same as S-97 Raider which uses coaxial rotor and pusher propeller. Production and maintenance advantages are huge.  

    It's also physically larger which means more payload and better transport version down the road.

    This is no brainer.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:28 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Mil project is more conventional and easier to bring to serial production.

    Also, test platform was able to achieve 400kph with standard rotor setup (no pusher propeller) which is same as S-97 Raider which uses coaxial rotor and pusher propeller. Production and maintenance advantages are huge.  

    It's also physically larger which means more payload and better transport version down the road.

    This is no brainer.

    They're also saying that the final design from Mil will allow the helicopter to fly up to 700km/h

    In the fall of 2018, another image of the PSV project appeared along the coaxial scheme typical of Kamov’s helicopters. A distinctive feature of the car were the "aircraft wings". In the description of this helicopter, it was noted that having both blades and wings at the same time would allow it to reach speeds of up to 700 km / h, RIA Novosti reports.

    https://vpk.name/news/235223_proekt_perspektivnogo_skorostnogo_vertoleta_kb_im_milya_uspeshno_zashishen_v_minoboronyi_rossii.html
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:28 am

    That is pretty amazing because of retreating blade stall factors.

    Basically when a helo is hovering the blades go round and round so they are going at the same speed and generate the same amount of lift... it can climb or descend by changing the pitch of the blades increasing or decreasing lift.

    The problem is that in forward flight things change.

    At 100km/h in forward flight the blades coming forward get 100km/h added to their speed so they generate extra lift, while the blades on the opposite side have 100km/h speed deducted from their lift so if you just had fixed pitch blades the aircraft would roll over because one side it producing extra lift and the other side is producing less.

    An articulated mechanism changes the pitch of the blades as they spin so as they go forward into the incoming air their pitch is reduced, while as they come around the other side and start going back the angle is increased to generate extra lift on the back stroke because 100km/h is taken away from their speed relative to the direction of flight.

    Eventually however as you fly faster and faster eventually you get to an airspeed where the retreating blade is moving into the incoming air so fast that its rotational speed means it can't generate lift and the retreating blade stalls so you get no lift on that side and the helo rolls over and crashes.

    The coaxial design fixes this problem because even when the retreating blade no longer generates lift on the opposite side there is an attacking blade that will generate lift... the speed limit here is blade flex where upper and lower blades flex and meet in rotation... the blade as it is going round is changing angle so the amount of lift force changes with each rotation so they will flex a lot... if a blade from one set of rotors flexes into the path of the other set of rotors obviously boom...

    Wings offset the amount of lift needed from the main rotor and should reduce blade flex... but they block lift in a hover... so while improving high speed flight performance they do negatively effect low speed and hover performance.

    Interesting info anyway... especially as the technology can be applied to existing types...
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:58 am

    Reports that there will be an update of existing helicopters for higher speed, as previously hinted in relation with the development of new rotor blades:

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.ru/https/tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811210458-ikm8.htm
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    Post  hoom on Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:36 pm

    They're also saying that the final design from Mil will allow the helicopter to fly up to 700km/h
    In your quote the 700km/h is attributed to the Ka concept.

    If Mil have won then it explains why the unsuccessful Ka concept would be shown.

    Ugh I really hope they're not saying this concept won
    Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV) - Page 4 Mi-x1-image01
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 pm

    hoom wrote:
    They're also saying that the final design from Mil will allow the helicopter to fly up to 700km/h
    In your quote the 700km/h is attributed to the Ka concept.

    If Mil have won then it explains why the unsuccessful Ka concept would be shown.

    Ugh I really hope they're not saying this concept won
    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/mi-x1-image01.jpg

    Why not?

    Looks alright. Simple and doable.
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:57 pm

    It seems they are going to improve the existing fleet of Mil helicopters upgrading the rotors first, rather than going for new models with additional propellers, at least that is how I read previous news and the one below:

    Russian hi-tech firms design new blades to boost combat helicopters’ speed

    The rotor blades based on new principles can be used on the existing Mil helicopters

    MOSCOW, November 21. /TASS/. The Zhukovsky Central Aero-Hydrodynamic Institute (TsAGI) and the Mil Design Bureau have designed new rotor blades that make it possible to boost the speed of existing Russian combat helicopters to 400 km/h, TsAGI CEO Kirill Sypalo told TASS on Wednesday.

    "Previously, we flew at a maximum speed of somewhere 320-330 km/h, whereas now we are setting the achievable level of 400 km/h and higher," Sypalo said, responding to the corresponding question.

    The new blades reduce negative aerodynamic effects arising for helicopters of the classical design at high speeds, the chief executive added.

    "The unique profiles and aerodynamic arrangement of the helicopter blades reduce the effect of supersonic speeds arising at the ends of the blades. This is one of the sources of ensuring movement with a greater speed," the TsAGI chief said.

    The rotor blades based on new principles can be used on the existing Mil helicopters, Sypalo said.

    "Considering that a great number of Mil helicopters have been produced, we will get a completely new quality of rotorcraft with the replacement of the blades,"
    the chief executive said.

    CEO of Russian Helicopters rotorcraft maker Andrei Boginsky earlier said that the company was going to offer Russia’s Defense Ministry technical solutions making it possible to boost the speed of helicopters currently in service.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1031806

    A small boost in speed, multiplied by a huge number of units, is a very good way of making a big impact on your global capability, hats off to that. But a helo based on the new Kamov principle, flying 700 km/h, would be a fundamentally different type or aircraft with greatly improved capacities... it should be developed too Razz
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    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:07 am

    Why not?

    Looks alright. Simple and doable.
    Because as discussed further up the thread its easy to make a CGI showing the pusher prop mainly pushing, in practice because its single-rotor the thrust is mostly diverted sideways distinctly inelegantly scratch



    It seems they are going to improve the existing fleet of Mil helicopters upgrading the rotors first
    I'm down with that, relatively minor upgrade for pretty significant performance improvement of a big existing fleet thumbsup
    Significant export potential too.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:57 am

    LMFS wrote:
    A small boost in speed, multiplied by a huge number of units, is a very good way of making a big impact on your global capability, hats off to that. But a helo based on the new Kamov principle, flying 700 km/h, would be a fundamentally different type or aircraft with greatly improved capacities... it should be developed too Razz

    Definately, also couldn't Kamov go the same way as the Eurocopter X3?





    ...With exception that it should have dual counter-props like the Tu-95, maybe explore placing couple small jet engines rated at 10,000 kgf each near the tail wing, even maybe adding thrust vectoring nozzles in a simplified capacity to them.
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:46 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Definately, also couldn't Kamov go the same way as the Eurocopter X3?

    ...With exception that it should have dual counter-props like the Tu-95, maybe explore placing couple small jet engines rated at 10,000 kgf each near the tail wing, even maybe adding thrust vectoring nozzles in a simplified capacity to them.
    I would rather think Eurocopter would like to have Kamov's coaxial rotor technology and unrivalled experience! Razz

    I'm curious, what do you find better in Eurocopter's proposal? Or conversely, what is wrong with Kamov's one? It may be a bluff after all, but I don't see the big problem with it except for maybe the reduction of hovering capabilities due to the wing. But other than that it is amazing. And it fits with previous statements (in 2017) from Kamov's chief designer about future helicopters being sleek, with internal weapons and flying 500-600 km/h. So I tend to believe this could be real dunno
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    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:00 pm

    Mil Design Bureau to develop fast-speed combat helicopter for Russian Army

    The helicopter may develop a speed of up to 500 km/h

    KAZAN, November 23. /TASS/. Russia’s Defense Ministry has opted for the project of the Mil Design Bureau to create a cutting-edge fast-speed combat helicopter while the Kamov Design Bureau will continue developing the naval version of the Minoga rotorcraft, Russian Helicopters Group CEO Andrei Boginsky said on Friday.

    "After examining all the proposed technical versions from the viewpoint of their readiness, as well as the scientific and technical potential and the possibilities of cooperation, the customer opted for a solution that implies achieving the speed under the goals of the specifications based on the Mil helicopter," the chief executive said.

    "It should also be borne in mind that the Kamov is already making the conceptual design of the Minoga helicopter… This project is already underway. The Kamov Design Bureau has always been strong and these competences have remained and we are multiplying them in the production of special co-axial rotorcraft for their application in specific conditions and, in the first place, in the Navy," Boginsky added.

    As was reported earlier, Russia’s Defense Ministry and the Moscow-based Mil Rotorcraft Factory signed a contract at the Army-2017 forum on the R&D work to develop a fast-speed combat helicopter.

    Although the contract for developing a rotary-wing drone was signed with the Mil Rotorcraft Factory, both the Mil and the Kamov design bureaus took part in the tender for working out its design, Boginsky said.

    "In order to give our customer a possibility to demonstrate the potential of both the Mil and Kamov Design Bureaus, we have made a decision within the Group and have agreed it with the customer that the two design bureaus should take part in this work. Correspondingly, about a dozen of concepts were offered to the customer to choose. Scientific and technical councils were held to examine the materials prepared by both design bureaus," Boginsky said.

    The tender has demonstrated the readiness of both design bureaus to prove their competences, the chief executive said.

    "If there are discussions, this means that there is competition … there are competences to substantiate a viewpoint of one of the two design bureaus and the customer already opts for the required version," Boginsky said.
    Promising helicopter

    As was reported earlier, work has been launched to develop a fast-speed helicopter for the Industry and Trade Ministry and the Defense Ministry of Russia. Then-Commander-in-Chief of Russia’s Aerospace Force Viktor Bondarev noted at the time that the helicopter was being developed for the Russian Defense Ministry, would enter its serial production from 2022 and would be able to develop a speed of up to 500 km/h.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1032170
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:10 am

    LMFS wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Definately, also couldn't Kamov go the same way as the Eurocopter X3?

    ...With exception that it should have dual counter-props like the Tu-95, maybe explore placing couple small jet engines rated at 10,000 kgf each near the tail wing, even maybe adding thrust vectoring nozzles in a simplified capacity to them.
    I would rather think Eurocopter would like to have Kamov's coaxial rotor technology and unrivalled experience! Razz

    I'm curious, what do you find better in Eurocopter's proposal? Or conversely, what is wrong with Kamov's one? It may be a bluff after all, but I don't see the big problem with it except for maybe the reduction of hovering capabilities due to the wing. But other than that it is amazing. And it fits with previous statements (in 2017) from Kamov's chief designer about future helicopters being sleek, with internal weapons and flying 500-600 km/h. So I tend to believe this could be real dunno


    All I'm saying is they could take the Eurcopters' proven design, and add the Kamov's coaxial rotors, and also add the coaxial counter propellers seen on the Tu-95's, maybe with the difference of having the propellers attached to the ends of the rear tail wing, and have two additional wings in the front with weapon pylons.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:21 am

    So the official name of Kamov's proposal was 'Lamprey', and Kamov will still continue developing the project on their own initiative:



    In turn, KB Kamov will continue to develop the sea helicopter "Lampa"

    KAZAN, November 23. / Tass /. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation chose the project of the Mile Design Bureau (KB) to create a promising high-speed combat helicopter, while the Kamov Design Bureau will continue to work on the development of the Minoga helicopter. The general director of the holding company "Helicopters of Russia" (part of the state corporation "Rostec") Andrei Boginsky told reporters on Friday.

    "The customer, having considered all the proposed technical options from the point of view of readiness, scientific and technical groundwork, opportunities for cooperation, chose a solution that presupposes achieving speed in terms of the objectives of the [technical assignment] based on the Milev machine," he said

    “We should not forget that Kamov is already doing the draft design of the“ Lamprey ”helicopter. The same project is already underway ... applications in certain conditions and primarily in the fleet, "added Boginsky.

    As previously reported, during the Army 2017 forum, the Russian Ministry of Defense and the Moscow-based M.L. Mil Helicopter Plant signed a contract to carry out the Speed ​​research project to develop a high-speed combat helicopter.

    According to Andrei Boginsky, despite the fact that the contract for the development of BPV was signed with the Mil MVZ in the competition for the development of its appearance took two KB - Mil and Kamov. “In order to give our customer the opportunity to demonstrate the possibilities, both Mil and KB and Kamov’s KB inside the holding made a decision, agreed with the customer to have two KB participate in this work. Accordingly, about a dozen concepts were proposed for the customer to choose. scientific and technical councils, where the materials that were made by two design bureaus were considered, internal protection was first carried out and several projects were presented to the customer’s commission, including the Mil projects and the Kamo projects and "- he said.

    The general director of the holding noted that the competition had demonstrated the readiness of the design bureaus to prove their competencies. "If there is a discussion, then there is competition. It’s bad that it comes out on such a public plane, and it’s not even a discussion, but someone’s monologue. So there is competition, there are competencies to substantiate or prove the point of view of “And the customer already chooses a more appropriate option,” added Boginsky, noting that he considers this a positive thing.

    About development


    Earlier it was reported about the development of a promising high-speed helicopter for the Ministry of Industry and Trade and the Ministry of Defense of Russia. Viktor Bondarev, who at that time held the position of commander-in-chief of the All-Union Military Space Forces of the Russian Federation, noted that the helicopter being developed in the interests of the Ministry of Defense would go into series from 2022 and be able to reach speeds of up to 500 km / h.

    https://vpk.name/news/235887_konstruktorskoe_byuro_milya_budet_delat_dlya_vks_perspektivnyii_boevoi_vertolet.html
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    Post  hoom on Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:41 am

    Lamprey is the programme for a new Naval helicopter, has been going for several years at least & maybe back into the 00ies http://www.russiadefence.net/t5337-new-naval-helicopter-lamprey


    So to keep both Mil & Ka busy Russia is giving one program each, makes sense in that way but could mean an inferior solution gets developed.
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:56 am

    The Kamov Design Bureau will create on the basis of the Ka-52 a flying laboratory for the project of a high-speed helicopter

    The general director of the Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute, Kirill Sypalo, noted that work is planned to begin soon.

    According to the director of TsAGI, the work on the PSV project goes in two directions. In the first direction, separate developments, such as new arrangements of blades and rotors, will be implemented on already existing Mi-brand machines. In the second direction, the helicopter is developing a fundamentally new scheme, the draft of which is presented by the Kamov Design Bureau.

    Earlier it was reported that the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation will receive for consideration three projects of a promising high-speed combat helicopter with a different structural-aerodynamic scheme. According to the current requirements of the military department, the maximum speed of a prospective combat helicopter should be 400 km / h and more, and cruising speed should be 360 ​​km / h or more.

    The first option is a classic helicopter with one main and one tail rotor. The second one - with a combined power plant, where, in addition to the rotor, there are additional propellers on the sides of the hull, pulling the helicopter forward. The third scheme is a twin-screw coaxially with rigid rotors and an additional pushing screw in the tail, the so-called propulsive propulsor.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5838449
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:38 am

    Great news!

    So the newest proposal from Kamov was either fake or too advanced for the moment? And the PSV program is rather many programs, with each manufacturer developing future models for high speed. I was not aware of Russia entertaining a layout like Eurocopter's one but it seems that was the case. I expect the solution to be tested in the Ka-52 to be the one with rear propeller, since the other is more complex and rather adapted to helicopters that need torque compensation
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    Post  eehnie on Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:08 am

    Lamprey=Minoga Refered to the successor of the Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35 family.

    The MiG-X1, Ka-90 and Ka-92 seems to be projects of high spped helicopters but for auxiliary/civil purposes.

    These instead seems to be the new projects for the successors of the Mi-28 and the Ka-50/52. Unlike for the previous generation, for the current generation it seems that only one will continue forward avoiding redundancies (it also happened with the fighters). The designation seems unknown for both, and also the Mil project seems unknown, only would be known the flying laboratory prepared on the basis of the Mi-24 (MI-8/... family), something like a pre-prototype.

    Fairly interesting projects. I think it would be important to make them unmanned, even if it means some delay. In this case the achievement would be of high importance and Russia would not regret. The work on robotization of combat helicopters is likely the most important actually in order to avoid human loses in the battleground. This part of the new is of high interest:

    Mil Design Bureau to develop fast-speed combat helicopter for Russian Army

    The helicopter may develop a speed of up to 500 km/h

    KAZAN, November 23. /TASS/.

    ...

    As was reported earlier, Russia’s Defense Ministry and the Moscow-based Mil Rotorcraft Factory signed a contract at the Army-2017 forum on the R&D work to develop a fast-speed combat helicopter.

    Although the contract for developing a rotary-wing drone was signed with the Mil Rotorcraft Factory, both the Mil and the Kamov design bureaus took part in the tender for working out its design, Boginsky said.

    "In order to give our customer a possibility to demonstrate the potential of both the Mil and Kamov Design Bureaus, we have made a decision within the Group and have agreed it with the customer that the two design bureaus should take part in this work. Correspondingly, about a dozen of concepts were offered to the customer to choose. Scientific and technical councils were held to examine the materials prepared by both design bureaus," Boginsky said.

    The tender has demonstrated the readiness of both design bureaus to prove their competences, the chief executive said.

    ...

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1032170

    Russia has ready the new Ka-226 and Mi-Ansat, has almost ready the new Mi-38 and Ka-60/62, is going forward strong with the Ka-40 Minoga and Mi-Combat Helicopter, but still I see weak efforts in the refered to the successors of the Mi-6/10/22 and the Mi-26/27. With them the new generation of Russian helicopters would be complete. In the refered to the successor of the Mi-6/10/22 there are works on the Mi-46/AHL and the Ka-102, both very interesting, and at least one should be ready for the Russian markets by 2025. In the refered to the successor of the Mi-26/27, works on the new engine and modernization are good, but should not delay the work on a new successor. From this point, the work of Kamov in its project of combat helicopter can wait some time.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:53 am

    Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV) - Page 4 1543632484_245

    Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV) - Page 4 1543632390_244
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:26 pm

    To be fair, it is a CGI, not a model in the wind tunnel
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:34 am

    In JSC "Kamov" have developed a project synccopter, which can accelerate to 420 km / h

    Formed a general view and layout, as well as calculated aircraft performance characteristics of the aircraft, according to the developer’s presentation

    MOSCOW, April 24th. / Tass /. Kamov JSC (part of the Russian Helicopters holding) has developed a conceptual design of a prospective high-speed helicopter of a synchroter (or synchroopter) scheme with two main and one pusher propellers. The maximum design speed of the car reaches 420 km / h, follows from the presentation of the developer, a copy of which is available to TASS.

    A synccopter is a helicopter, in which two screws are mounted at a short distance from each other and rotate in opposite directions, while the trajectories of their blades intersect, the screws rotate "overlap". In order for the blades not to collide, their rotation is mechanically synchronized.

    The simulation showed the advantage of such a scheme - the efficiency is higher by 4% compared to the single and coaxial schemes, there is no disruption of the air flow from the screws, which occurs at high speeds. It is because of this effect that the helicopters of the classical schemes have reached their speed limit. Also, to increase the speed in the tail, a pushing screw was installed, the blades received tips of a special form, and their speed of rotation was reduced from 220 to 180 m / s.

    According to the presentation materials, the design result was a high-speed passenger helicopter with the following characteristics: take-off weight of 6500 kg, payload mass of 1000 kg, cruising speed of 357 km / h, maximum speed of 420 km / h, static ceiling of 4700 m, dynamic ceiling of 5600 m, range of 1228 km.

    More
    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6368633

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