Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

The link I posted before still doesn't work but I have found an alternative site with the same stuff that seems to be updated:

http://gunco-book.tripod.com/Index.htm

Does anybody have any info regarding this rifle, the Saritch .308? Looks like a gun from some movie or video game.

Odd, like a movie gun. Looks like it also has forward ejection. Any idea who makes it?

If the M8 and the FN2000 had a baby, this would be it.

Yeah I noticed that too. Hopefully it doesn't triple feed like the FN2000.

It's definitely not a good looking gun, although if you swap out that ugly green for some regulation black and slap on an Eotech that might help alittle.

Give it a gunmetal finish and go out for Halloween as a Marine from HALO.

AFAIK that is a design submitted by a student and is not in production, or likely to be.

Found its name... Saritch 308, and it is in 7.62 x 51mm calibre.

According to Wiki:

The Saritch 308 (Buzzard) is a prototype of Bullpup designated marksman rifle of Russian origin under development by Tula Arms. Designed by engineer Alexander Shevchenko and design student Andrey Ovsyannikov, the .308 semi-auto rifle is a testbed for a new firing mechanism planned to be used in a modular weapon system ranging from carbines to light machineguns. The first working model is planned for testing in late 2010.

So that is interesting... its mechanism might be the brand new design that was mentioned previously for new from scratch design family from SMG to GPMG.

Page of info here(in Russian):

http://www.gunscity.ru/index.php?newsid=516

Not really related to the thread but I couldn't think of anywhere else to put it.

An interesting little weapon. It's a prototype SMG known as the AEK-918G.

AEK-918G

Interesting, though I prefer the original AEK-918, which is rather different from this model and looks a lot like the AEK-919 Kashtan.

Do you think they are being ironic when they name the 9 x 18mm calibre Kashtan as AEK-919K and the 9 x 19mm model AEK-918?

I personally like the Vityaz better as what is basically an AKS-74U in 9 x 19mm calibre, though a new model with AK-12 features like the new cocking handle that can be flipped to left or right, plus new fire selector and bolt hold open features would be useful on this sort of weapon.

Right now we have seen a standard assault rifle length weapon and a larger weapon for larger rifle calibres in the AK-12 series. There is talk that if India wants a multi calibre system they will develop it for them... I suspect if these weapons are chosen for service that shorter receiver designs might be adapted to make SMG models as well with different calibre and barrel length options.

Certainly short and medium length barrels for SMGs would be useful, but long barrel carbines in pistol calibres would also be interesting as low ricochet police weapons. Certainly with options for up to 45 calibre ammo, or even 50 cal ammo in the form of a 12.7 x 55mm round you could have a huge number of calibre/barrel length/weapon options, with receivers in SMG, Assault Rifle, and Rifle/LMG sizes in a wide range of calibres and barrel lengths.

Any chance you could tell me what advantage that waffle shaped compensator has over a simpler, more conventional design? Just seems a bit bizarre.

I am guessing that this new design is much more efficient at stopping the barrel jumping around under recoil.

This weapon has a very high rate of fire and when shooting lots of rounds very rapidly the gas blast can push the gun all over the place.

I suspect this compensator directs the gasses to change the effect of the gas blast to have a more positive effect on recoil so it can be kept on target longer.

The recoil of the bullet will move the weapon because of its weight and speed, and while the powder turns to a gas during firing and is much lighter than the bullet it is also travelling much faster and momentum is mass times velocity times velocity... so very high speed objects tend to have more momentum than slower heavier objects.

The problem with weapons that rely on special compensators to make them more effective is when you attach something like a suppressor they sometimes stop being so effective and start being like all the other weapons fitted with a suppressor.

Another problem with compensators like this is that they reduce felt recoil by directing the gas behind the bullet sideways and sometimes a little to the rear. The effect being that people standing beside you tend to get a blast of gas and concentrated noise in their faces. When shooting that is not normally a problem, though if you are shooting around things you need to be aware of where your muzzle is when you fire so you don't get it directed into your face off a wall, or bark and leaves blasted into your eyes.

On the shooting range you tend to get the people either side of you objecting too.

For a single shot is it not so important because the first shot tends to go where you are aiming, it is when you fire bursts or if you are firing a powerful weapon that kicks hard that a decent compensator comes into its own.

Firing a 12.7 x 107mm rifle or even a 338LM... or for that matter a short barrel Mosin Nagant Carbine even for single shot a compensator can make it more comfortable to fire.

For this sort of weapon however the pistol bullet it fires has a mild recoil so the purpose will be to control the small recoil impulses from each shot so they don't build up in a burst and shake the weapon off target.

Hm, yeah actually that would make a lot of sense when you take into account the fact that the article I linked states that the AEK-918G can fire a three round burst in 1/10 of a second. Unless this rate is reduced for full automatic fire that would mean that this weapon could fire off 30 rounds in a second. That could probably shred right through pretty much any modern body armor. Probably not great for conserving your ammo though.

A very high rate of fire is significant in terms of hits and lethality, but it does not effect armour penetration.

Most police use a technique called a double tap where the trigger is pulled twice rapidly to get two shots off instead of just one... the logic being that one hit will do damage but two hits will do more damage and be more effective.

Even with the target less than a metre from the muzzle those two shots are not going to hit in the same place on a target as the first shot came from a weapon that was stationary and the second from a weapon that hasn't recovered from the recoil of the first shot.

A three round burst is not intended to improve performance against body armour because if the first hit does not penetrate the next two rounds are unlikely to penetrate either... even if all three rounds hit the same place... which they wont... they would have to penetrate the first bullet to get to the armour.

Equally three bullets going through the same wound channel would not increase lethality very much at all.

Outside of TV and movies pistols and SMGs are actually not particularly accurate weapons... just go to a pistol shooting match and look at how big the 10m targets are... most are about half a metre across or more.

A SMG is a much heavier weapon than a pistol but also is much more effective because of the low lethality of a pistol round. The SMG has the advantage of being a heavier and more stable weapon that allows you to use your hands and your shoulder to hold it steady. Its longer barrel (longer than most pistols) mean the bullets get more energy and hit the target harder, but the main advantage is that you can fire bursts and multiple hits is the key to the lethality of a SMG.

One pistol round wound might not hit anything internally that is important... but 3-4 hits and your chances of clipping a main artery or the spine or something else you need to function are greatly increased.

If the target has a vest then fire a burst at their pelvis... ignore what you see on TV or the movies... someone with a bullet in their hip will not run away or do anything... a burst into the upper thigh that clips the femoral artery and they can be dead in a few minutes.

90% of lethality is bullet placement.

Well I will admit that my knowledge of bullet penetration in regards to body armor is somewhat limited.

If multiple hits in the same area don't increase the odds of penetration, then what was the whole debate about the AN-94's two round burst feature adding to it's abilities to penetrate body armor? People were saying that the rounds would land close enough to each other to allow the second round to penetrate through. Again my knowledge on this subject is less than impressive.

As for your other comments, I've shot plenty of firearms in my time, thank you. Not much of a movie person either, to be honest.

If multiple hits in the same area don't increase the odds of penetration, then what was the whole debate about the AN-94's two round burst feature adding to it's abilities to penetrate body armor. People were saying that the rounds would land close enough to each other to allow the second round to penetrate through. Neutral Again my knowledge on this subject is less than impressive.

The concept behind the two rapid shots fired with one pull of the trigger with the AN-94 had nothing to do with increased penetration or defeating vests, and everything to do with increasing hit probability and lethality.

The idea was not two bullets entering the same hole one after the other, and was all about the second bullet striking the target within 10cm or so of the other round. The second round increased the chance of hitting a moving target and if both rounds hit then the lethality of two wounds is more than double the lethality of one wound.

Even with side by side barrels and two rounds being fired simultaneously two projectiles will almost never enter the same hole on a target... and even if they did the second bullet would have to penetrate the front bullet... which in 5.45mm is mostly steel and would probably offer better protection than any vest.

The reality is that the concept of using rate of fire to penetrate body armour with multiple hits was tested in the 1980s with a .22lr calibre SMG with a laser sight... the idea was that the low recoil of the ammo would let the shooter get more hits in the same place because of reduced recoil. During testing they found very few rounds hit where previous rounds hit and instead of a single round hole there were clusters of holes with no penetration.

The kevlar that stopped the rounds remained intact to stop the next round but there was a blob of lead in the way now too.

As for your other comments, I've shot plenty of firearms in my time, thank you. Not much of a movie person either, to be honest.

Sorry... didn't mean to offend.

It is one of my pet peeves against Hollywood... I think the realistic portrayal of firearms would be of huge benefit to society as a whole... so called civilisation largely consists of the urbanisation of the human population along with a less perceptible separation from nature and reality. Personally I blame Disney, with his cartoon characters that defy reality and nature. Mice don't outwit cats most of the time... cats might escape from dogs occasionally but the natural winners are generally portrayed as the losers... and this is shown to children...

No wonder most kids have such a warped view of the world...

I am also in a bit of a funny mood too... My nephew just visited and gave me a shell for my collection...

Well I guess it doesn't matter in the end. Whether they penetrate or not, getting struck with 30 pistol rounds in less than a second would probably knock just about anybody off their feet for a while.

I agree with your comments regarding Hollywood and Disney, kids watch movies like Terminator and James Bond and suddenly think they know everything there is to know about firearms.

Here read this, you'll probably get a good laugh from it.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18576_5-ridiculous-gun-myths-everyone-believes-thanks-to-movies.html

Oh and congrats on your new shell.

Back on topic (Well, sort of). There's one more thing confusing me about the AEK-918G. In the article I linked earlier it is described as having a "balanced configuration". It goes on to say that this, along with it's unique muzzle compensator, help to reduce felt recoil of the weapon. So does that mean the AEK-18G hase a balanced recoil system, similar to those found on the AK-107 and AEK-917?

Nice article, but it makes a few minor mistakes with silencers and videos of silencers.

Most microphones have sound dampners and volume capacities so is not a good indicator of sound.

In laymans terms you have heard gunshots before... have you ever heard a gunshot on tape or at a movie that actually managed to replicate that sound accurately?

A suppressor can dramatically reduce the sound of a shot, and with subsonic ammo and a weapon that has no moving parts like a bolt action even if you were in the same room as the gun you might not recognise it as a gunshot. The impact of the bullet will be the loudest and might be the only thing you hear.

Very simply a firearm makes lots of noise... the sound of the mechanism racking back and forth during the shot on an automatic weapon, the crack of the bullet breaking the sound barrier,and the bang from the expanding cloud of gasses that pushed the bullet out the barrel.
With a bolt action weapon there is only the sound of the hammer hitting the firing pin... often a metalic click, the bullet travelling subsonic speeds makes no noise in flight and the suppressor captures the gas behind it and allows it to expand and cool before it reaches the open air so it doesnt make a bang either.

Using supersonic ammo means a loud crack from the muzzle out several hundred metres depending on the calibre so fitting a suppressor to an AR-16 and using normal ammo will not make it quiet, but it will make it hard to work out where the shot came from and eliminate all the muzzle flash.

Otherwise a good read...

Regarding the recoil mechanism it says this on the entry for the Kashtan which this weapon is based on:

This is a blowback operated weapon. In so doing, use is made of the counterrecoil thrust configuration of the bolt, which envelopes the barrel from above and both sides, thereby reducing the size of the receiver and thus mak¬ing the weapon more compact. The barrel with polygonal rifflings is being removed from the submachine gun during its disassembly.

This sounds to me like there is a balanced recoil mechanism at work here to reduce felt recoil.

In straight blowback weapons to use more potent ammo you need a heavier bolt to keep the rate of fire managable, but I suspect this special mechanism allows them to keep the rate of fire lower with a lighter bolt than they would otherwise need. A heavy bolt means a heavier weapon and a heavy bolt slapping around can upset your accuracy.

This being a blowback weapon the recoil balance design will be different from the gas operated system in the AEK rifles and AK-107/8s but the concept is the same... to balance out the effect of the bolt and bolt carrier as the weapon cycles.

Oh and congrats on your new shell.

Thanks... it is a 105mm spent shell... don't know whether to try to polish it up or leave as is.

Garry i was trained on the SLR..it was a gem of a rifle in the 80s.British Commonwealth training meant that we were very apt at 450 yards.The heavy bullet unberknownst to us would have made swiss cheese of btr and bmd armour of the day.Any assault rifle equipped infantry deploying at that range would lose the gunfight to the semi automatic SLR...then there was always the matchstick in the trigger sear trick for full auto.It is hard to lose the afinity for ones battle rifle,even after 30 years.

I am not sure whether my SLR is Australian or New Zealand issue, but it is made at Lithgow in Aussie.

Because of silly laws here I have to have a different pistol grip and a stupid short 7 shot mag which makes reloading harder (the short mag means there is nothing to grip).

It would have penetrated M113 armour just as easily... it is a nicely balanced rifle that is comfortable to fire, and while not light, it recoils well. The shape of the buttstock means shooting is comfortable.

Can't use the standard muzzle attachment as that is a flash hider, so I am currently thinking of buying a suppressor for it...

Last time I went shooting with a friend with it after I fired 5 shots to zero it in while he was standing nearby, his comment was... Damn that is a powerful rifle!

It is certainly that.

At the Tsniitoshmash stand at the Technology & Engineering 2012 exhibition:




SR1-PM


SR2-MP


SR3-MP

Nice pictures TheArmenian.

The SR-1 is the Gurza or Viper pistol in a powerful 9 x 21mm calibre for use against well protected targets.

The SR-2 is the sub machine gun in the same calibre for use against similarly protected targets.

And the SR-3 is direct competition to the AS and AK9 in 9 x 39mm calibre using subsonic ammo and a short barrel to be fitted with a suppressor for "quiet" work.

V nice weapons, especially kitted out with stuff as they are in the photos above.

GarryB wrote:Nice pictures TheArmenian.

The SR-1 is the Gurza or Viper pistol in a powerful 9 x 21mm calibre for use against well protected targets.

The SR-2 is the sub machine gun in the same calibre for use against similarly protected targets.

And the SR-3 is direct competition to the AS and AK9 in 9 x 39mm calibre using subsonic ammo and a short barrel to be fitted with a suppressor for "quiet" work.

V nice weapons, especially kitted out with stuff as they are in the photos above.

Its pronouced Gyurza. Very deadly snake indeed. That snake is also found in many regions of Armenia and is very much feared for its deadly venom. The SR-1 pistol is also sometimes called Vector.

The SR-2 (called Veresk) is the very special sub-machine gun used to protect the most valuable VIPs. The most likely place to find SR2s is in the Kremlin itself.

The SR-3 (Vikhr) is also for the elite of the elite. While the AS (Vintorez and Val) are in widespread use and the AK-9 never entered service. The SR-3 is with the very special forces. Hence not exactly in direct competition with the others.

The firearms made by Tsniitoshmash are of higher quality and sophistication. I suspect they are very expensive too.

TheArmenian wrote:
Its pronouced Gyurza. Very deadly snake indeed. That snake is also found in many regions of Armenia and is very much feared for its deadly venom. The SR-1 pistol is also sometimes called Vector.

The SR-2 (called Veresk) is the very special sub-machine gun used to protect the most valuable VIPs. The most likely place to find SR2s is in the Kremlin itself.

The SR-3 (Vikhr) is also for the elite of the elite. While the AS (Vintorez and Val) are in widespread use and the AK-9 never entered service. The SR-3 is with the very special forces. Hence not exactly in direct competition with the others.

The firearms made by Tsniitoshmash are of higher quality and sophistication. I suspect they are very expensive too.

I didn't know Gyurza was named after a snake, the name sounded cool before but now it's just awesome. Interesting bit of information there.

I heard the model for Russian forces is called Vector while the export version is referred to as Gyurza.

I can definitely see the SR-2 (And the entire SR family for that matter) Coming in handy in a VIP protection situation, where the enemy is likely fitted with some kind of personal protection. 9mm MP-5s just aren't fully up to par any more.

I don't know about the rest of Tsniitoshmash's products, but I've heard the SR-3 (especially the SR-3M) is a very pricey weapon. I'm fairly sure that was the reason the 9A-91 became popular. The SR-3 was too expensive to supply to the FSB and MVD Special forces in large enough numbers, so the cheaper 9A-91 found favor with them instead.

The SR-3 (Vikhr) is also for the elite of the elite. While the AS (Vintorez and Val) are in widespread use and the AK-9 never entered service. The SR-3 is with the very special forces. Hence not exactly in direct competition with the others.

The firearms made by Tsniitoshmash are of higher quality and sophistication. I suspect they are very expensive too.

I don't know about the rest of Tsniitoshmash's products, but I've heard the SR-3 (especially the SR-3M) is a very pricey weapon. I'm fairly sure that was the reason the 9A-91 became popular. The SR-3 was too expensive to supply to the FSB and MVD Special forces in large enough numbers, so the cheaper 9A-91 found favor with them instead.

Actually it is interesting you both mention cost because I remember reading an article supposedly by a special forces operator from the GRU who laments the fact that they have to use AS and VSS weapons in 9 x 39mm when they see much more expensive weapons like 9A91 and SR-3M that are much more compact and lighter, yet fire the same ammo with better accuracy.

The selling point of the AK9 was going to be its 30 round mags for 9x39mm ammo, but the SR-3M also introduced such a mag.

I rather suspect the idea was to have a "special forces" weapon family option for the AK-100 series for export.