Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

Actually the more I read from that website about that show the more I think it is focused on food and textiles and logistics support rather than small arms and weapons.

I suspect the AK-200 wasn't shown at that show, so apart from the factory making a press release especially for the new rifle, are there any other shows before the end of the year that might reveal the new rifle?

It looks like the AK200 has been re-named the AK12 alot of translated Russian news press wizzing around the web this week on it.

It seem to say that the AK12 would feature 'one handed operation' which I guess is ambi - controls i.e a new left and right hand selector switch of some type ? In addition ambi charging handle?

Still no pics of a prototype but it would seem that the design thinking has come some way since the pictures of the AK200 were shown back in mid year.

Also talk of a new 'state secret' calibre in adddition to the 5.45 & 7.62 x 39mm norms.

Any ideas team !

njb

Interesting titbits... thanks.

It seem to say that the AK12 would feature 'one handed operation' which I guess is ambi - controls i.e a new left and right hand selector switch of some type ? In addition ambi charging handle?

Or is it like the ADS where the rifles balance is on the pistol grip... it also has an ambi charging handle...

There is certainly no reason why the cocking handle needs to be on the right side... the original setup is actually rather ergonomic for left handers already.

The mag release is already ambi, while the cocking handle is awkward to reach over and operate for right handed shooters and the safety and fire selector is similarly difficult to operate for right handers trying to use their off hand (ie left hand).

The last rifle we know about was the AK-9 which is in 9 x 39mm calibre and is Kalashnikovs direct competition for the AS and VSS 9mm suppressed weapons... so what was the AK-10/-11 if this is 12?

Also talk of a new 'state secret' calibre in adddition to the 5.45 & 7.62 x 39mm norms.

The secret calibre could be a further development of the 6 x 49mm round they were developing to replace the 7.62 x 54mm cartridge in their unified machinegun and at least two sniper rifles.

The unified machinegun and ammo is detailed here:

http://world.guns.ru/machine/rus/unified-caliber-machine-gun-6-mm-e.html

Of the sniper rifles I have seen one photo that is clearly based on an SVD:




Note there is also a new page on the new Russian sniper rifle on world guns ru.

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/sniper-rifles-orsis-t-5000-e.html

BTW my guess regarding a new state secret calibre would be a further development of the 6 x 49mm intended to replace the 7.62 x 54mm calibre round in the Russian military.

This would mean the 5.45 x 39mm is the standard assault rifle cartridge, the 6 x 49mm will take over for platoon snipers using SVDSs and light and medium machine gun roles, while the 338 LM will be adopted for the long range sniper role and the 12.7 and 14.5mm for long range anti material role, while Russian special forces will have the single shot SP-3 in 30 x 165mm cal as an anti MRAP weapon.

Recon units within the army will continue to use the AS and VSS in 9 x 39mm I would expect too.


I would also add that the two sniper rifles above in 6 x 49mm calibre look very much like a standard SVD and an SVDS, but both with the SVDSs new muzzle brake.

This gives us a hint that perhaps these rifles were being developed while the SVD was being upgraded to SVDS format... which was largely for mounted and airborne troops (which pretty much means all of them now).

The small calibre round with a fairly heavy projectile launched at high speed would have greatly extended effective range and accuracy.

The question of course is the 6 x 49mm round still with a steel case... which is relatively cheap and biodegradable, and also would aide in a machinegun in removing heat from the chamber during firing, or have they gone for lighter plastic cases like the American LSAT, or the even bolder step of caseless ammo like the West Germans when they had money to spend willy nilly???

Personally I think it might simply be a steel cased round for the moment while they work on more exotic ammo types for the from scratch weapon family they are working on.

A designated marksman rifle based on a standard infantry rifle makes sense in semi auto only, but this new calibre was specifically designed to replace the 7.62 x 54mm round, rather than be a new long range assault rifle round to replace everything from assault rifles and sniper rifles and machine guns.

We have seen the Russians pretty much go full circle with LMGs where the RP-46 at the end of WWII was a 7.62 x 54mm weapon with a removable barrel and either a belt or drum feed.
This was replaced with the RPD, a belt fed weapon using an assault rifle cartridge with a fixed barrel. This was replaced by the RPK, which is basically a heavy barrel AKM with a bipod and slightly larger magazines. This was upgraded when they went to 5.45 calibre weapons, but recently the Pecheneg has been adopted which returns to full power rifle ammo, and belt feed, plus a fixed barrel.
Much bigger and heavier than a minimi, but much more range and power because of the cartridge.

It is interesting to note the US and the Soviets designed miniguns in 5.56/5.45mm calibre, but neither took them past the design stage because their weight and complexity wasn't compensated for with reach... they were ineffectual at more than 600m. The 30 cal miniguns on the other hand could be effective out to about 1.5km and their short range firepower made them excellent for the role of suppressing enemy activity at critical times (like a hovering helo, or a helo taking off or landing).

It seems the Russians have decided that fire support for a unit should be 30 calibre rifle ammo. I have read a report about small arms effectiveness in Afghanistan and it states that the Minimi, with its short barrel is not much use beyond 200m, with the SA80 and M16 not much use beyond 300m.

The irony is that I have magazines from the 1980s talking about how the effective range of the M16 and SA80 was 600 and 800m respectively... certainly the barren mountains of Afghanistan is certainly a place where you would need such wonder weapons.

The Soviets found PKMS and SVDs to be very useful in such terrain and after some time the West has learned the same.

The successor of the famous AK-74, which has refused to purchase (early autumn this year) from the Russian Defense Ministry, will be assembled at the factory "Izhmash" and demonstrated the military in early December. Image until it secretly, according to "Izvestia" (a Russian newspaper).


"If a fighter is injured or his other hand is busy with something, he can still perform all the operations with a gun - switch safety, distort the bolt and even change the magazine," - said one of the designers. The Russian military still skeptical about the new development of Izhevsk gunsmiths.

"The mere automaton still has not been seen - is not here yet assembled. But for those designs that we have shown in the drawings, there is nothing new there - the same gas discharge tube, the same piston, so will have the same impact and the machine will also "drive" in the direction after the first shot, "- said a senior Russian Joint Military Staff.

The designers recognized that the machine can be recognized externally - will remain curved horn, and vent plunger. But the format will be a new store and a larger one - up to 60 rounds.

"With all the changes we have been able to maintain firm and reliable operation of the AK. Away from gas operated mechanism, we could not avoid, however automatics began to work much smoother, "- said the chief designer of the machine, Vladimir Zlobin.

Accuracy of fire and range of the new AK this is not called - these characteristics to be identified during the testing. However, the designers are confident that these parameters will be significantly better than previous models Kalashnikov. In particular, the new mechanism was created to meet the requirements to reduce the toss and recoil when firing.

In this design the machine heavily modified, weapons became more ergonomic - stock, staffing and safety lever are made "by hand", a new mechanism of change store "on the fly."

"Now comes the assembly of the machine, which has the working title of the AK-12, all the parts under it ready. In December, the prototype will be ready "in iron", and before the new year the company will be conducted the first firing, "- said Zlobin, -"Izvestia".

Based on the AK-12 is planned to create a whole line of automatic rifles - Short for special forces to the machine-gun set to infantry. In this now creates a few samples of AK-12 ammunition of various calibres under - the traditional 5.45, 5.56, 7.62 (all mm), and fundamentally new caliber, the number is on the "Izhmash" clarify refused, citing a Russian state secret.

Promising machine is equipped with a bayonet, grenade launcher device, bracket, for designators for all kinds of sights, including the night.

At the same AK-12 almost save a lot of its predecessor, and will weigh about 3.3 kg. The designer explained that "a sharp reduction in weight can be a negative impact on its characteristics, and in particular the accuracy of fire, will lead to an unacceptable reduction in the strength of his performance."

Not sure were this is from...looks like a translation via the net..interesting all the same

"With all the changes we have been able to maintain firm and reliable operation of the AK. Away from gas operated mechanism, we could not avoid, however automatics began to work much smoother, "- said the chief designer of the machine, Vladimir Zlobin.

Considering the performance improvements during burst and automatic fire, I really can't see why they wouldn't base the new rifle on the AK-107/-108 design. If they can mass produce these, then they should be able to mass produce it now.

Based on the AK-12 is planned to create a whole line of automatic rifles - Short for special forces to the machine-gun set to infantry. In this now creates a few samples of AK-12 ammunition of various calibres under - the traditional 5.45, 5.56, 7.62 (all mm), and fundamentally new caliber, the number is on the "Izhmash" clarify refused, citing a Russian state secret.

Ahhaa! The machine gun version for the infantry would need a machine gun cartridge and in the Russian Army that means the 7.62 x 54mm round. Now this round is hardly secret as it has been the standard rifle and machine gun round in the Russian and then Soviet and then Russian Army for 130 years, and we know the 6 x 51mm and then the revised 6 x 49mm rounds were developed to replace the 7.62 x 54mm round in service as the standard battle rifle, sniper rifle, and Machine gun cartridge.

The fact that they refer to the secret calibre suggests my guesses above were correct and they are working on a 6 x 49mm calibre machine gun and possibly also designated marksman rifle to replace the Pecheneg and the PKM and the SVD in service.

The replacement for the Pecheneg might simply be a Pecheneg in the 6 x 49mm calibre as it is a relatively new design.

Remember with the new rimless case and smaller round the Pecheneg in 6 x 49mm calibre will be smaller and lighter, but if its reported performance figures are correct... 1,200m/s muzzle velocity with a 120 grain projectile then its long range performance should be very good.

Of course with the new improved powders as developed for the underwater ammo for the ADS, it might have even better performance... the muzzle velocity is already pretty high so I would further improve performance with a longer heavier 140 grain projectile at 1,000m/s+ for longer range engagements.

Such a long slim projectile will have very good aerodynamics and will retain velocity much better than the older 7.62mm calibre round that was heavier but also fatter.

Promising machine is equipped with a bayonet, grenade launcher device, bracket, for designators for all kinds of sights, including the night.

The frustrating thing is that the original Ak with its sight bracket and extra bayonet lug to attach grenade launchers too was already much better than most western rifles.

The under barrel grenade launcher clipped on to the bayonet lug of the AK and AKM, and to make it compatible the AK-74 has two bayonet lugs if you look carefully... the forward one is for the bayonet while the rear one is to allow compatibility with the grenade launchers GP-25 and GP-30 and GP-34.
The M203 US equivalent requires the front handguard to be replaced completely to be fitted, while in a Russian unit the launcher can be unclipped and clipped on another rifle as easily as a bayonet.

It is the same with the optics... a latch holds the scope in place and a flick of the latch you can remove the scope again.

The only advantage of rails is that you can mount multiple scopes in front of each other, which I admit is worth copying.

Having rails all over the front of the rifle is nice for special forces, but most grunts will not bother with most of the tacticrap... a forward pistol grip is handy in urban combat, but otherwise a grenade launcher, a scope, and perhaps a suppressor is about all most soldiers will want to mount on their rifles and the old model AKs already supported that.

With the new FELIN based soldier system however standard troops will likely now be getting their own night vision device that can be mounted on their helmets or hand held or mounted as a scope on their rifle.

If this new rifle doesn't have a cheap relatively low power scope fitted as standard then I suspect the next "from scratch" rifle will, so for day operations the scope is used and for night operations the night vision monocular can be attached in front of the scope to allow operations at night without needing to rezero the rifle.

We also of course need to keep in mind that this is the new AK and KBP will likely be offering their ADS in competition, and the AEK rifle will likely also be put forward as will likely a further evolution of the AN-94... and remember the latter won the last competition in the mid 1990s.

"Now comes the assembly of the machine, which has the working title of the AK-12, all the parts under it ready. In December, the prototype will be ready "in iron", and before the new year the company will be conducted the first firing, "- said Zlobin, -"Izvestia".

So it hasn't been made yet and is not going to be ready for testing till the end of December...

"If a fighter is injured or his other hand is busy with something, he can still perform all the operations with a gun - switch safety, distort the bolt and even change the magazine," - said one of the designers. The Russian military still skeptical about the new development of Izhevsk gunsmiths.

Suggests the controls have been moved closer to the pistol grip... perhaps my suggestion of a push through safety near the pistol grip so you can push with your thumb to make the gun safe or push back with your palm to make the gun ready to fire, or vice versa with a left handed shooter... but either way you can take the weapon from safe to fire with the hand you grip the pistol grip with whether you are left or right handed... this will be a step forward in my opinion.

Of course how the soldier with the injured or busy off hand can cock the weapon is another question... of course being pedantic I can say a right handed shooter can already do these things with one hand by taking their hands off the pistol grip and using their right hand to manipulate the cocking handle and safety selector.

Does this mean that ejecting a magazine now involved pushing a button and having the magazine jump out like an M16 mag?

I hope not, I prefer the more solid Russian mag method... the FN FAL has a similar rock back to lock mag insertion and I prefer them to dropping mags all over the place.

Accuracy of fire and range of the new AK this is not called - these characteristics to be identified during the testing.

Engagement range for the ADS is given as 600m which is quite a distance and would require a scope to actually achieve.

The thing is that the bullet design means that at this range the 5.45mm round should still tumble on impact and be quite lethal even at this range.

The 5.56mm relies on velocity and bending forces on the bullet to fragment for lethal effect, so even from an M16 length 20 inch barrel it becomes less effective at more than 200m. In the more common shorter barrel M4 there is no range at which it will reliably fragment, so it becomes much less lethal.

Should be interesting to hear the results...

So to sum up Izhmash have released some information about their AK-12, which will be their entry for the AK-200 program.

We have to assume that there will be a similarly updated AEK rifle and that KBP will likely enter the ADS in some form or other as well, and that Nikonov will submit an updated AN-94 too.

The Russian Army will likely want a new rifle to add to their new FELIN based future soldier kit but the systems might only be used in special forces units.

They are just closing a deal to upgrade ammo manufacturing plants in Cuba so that the Cubans can make improved quality ammo... apparently the Cubans saw the setup the Russians sold to Venezuela and were impressed enough to buy the same for themselves.

The initial interest is for production facilities for 7.62 x 39mm ammo and the infrastructure to process old ammo by processing it reverse to recover powder and primers and projectiles and shell cases in an ecologically sound way.

Really don't know much about the condition of AKs in Cuba, but it could lead to building production facilities for AK-103s or perhaps Cuba might buy rifles (if it even needs them) from Venezuela.

The Russians hope to get contracts to upgrade more Cuban factories, but it is all treading a minefield as companies that do business with Cuba risk property seizures in the US due to their silly laws.

This new calibre is interesting of course, they have already talked about adopting 338 LM calibre ammo for extended range shooting for snipers... it also raises issues like perhaps they might not adopt the AK-12 completely... just components... the LMG version of the AK-12 could be based on the RPK design with magazines with more powerful 6 x 49mm ammo. Or it could be modified to belt feed in the new calibre to make it even more useful in the LMG role, which kinda leaves the Pecheneg in limbo as it will be heavier but not have longer range or lethality.
And if you are making machinee gun versions of the AK-12 then why not a semi auto rifle in the 6 x 49mm calibre as a replacement for the SVDS. This new rifle could be issued to some members of each platoon as a designated marksman rifle as a replacement for the SVD, while an SV-98 in 6 x 49mm calibre could be used together with an SV-98 in 338 LM calibre could be used by the professional snipers depending on the range to the target and their spotters could have 6 x 49mm automatic rifles to support and protect the sniper.
Note I have nothing against the 7.62 x 54mm round, but it entered service in or around 1891... it is a 19th century round.

Now it was upgraded in 1908 with a pointed lighter bullet and smokeless powder replacing the original round nosed 220 grain projectile with black powder propellent.
Its rimmed design makes it awkward in box mags too.

Check this out... posted on another forum by Andy_UE (thanks Andy):



Notice the rail attachment points all over the rifle... how slim they are and how they don't effect the soldiers grip of the weapon as much as standard rails do?

Perhaps the AK-200 will have these sorts of low profile rails all over it...

Perhaps they might revise the layout and make it a bullpup as well, but with a standard AK gas system. This would shift the balance of the weapon back which should improve recoil kinematics without needing balanced recoil mechanisms?

Note this bullpup depicted is in 12.7 x 54mm subsonic calibre so it could be a replacement for the AS suppressed assault rifles used by recon units. The Vychlop is its big brother sniper equivalent I am guessing.

Also notice the cocking handle can be reached from both sides of the weapon... will the AK-200 have this feature implimented as simply as this as well... just extend the cocking handle up to where it can be reached from both sides more easily?

Note also the small selector switch above the thumb and what appears to be a separate push through safety button in front of it that should be able to be operated with your trigger finger...

On reflection this new picture reminds me of that bullpup shown a while back with a large suppressor fitted and something under the front that I assumed was a grenade launcher.

A closer look at that photo and I think that was a slightly earlier model as it didn't seem to have the rails all over it.

With the rails all over it, it wouldn't take much to remove the front vertical grip and put that thing on it... whatever it was... it might have been a very powerful torch for all I know, plus a big suppressor and they would look very similar... so I am guessing they are the same rifle.

I thought the mags looked big.

BTW the designation seems to be AL-12 for the bullpup.

...I have read the background and it seems that this Al-12 is direct competition to the AS suppressed assault rifle.
The advantages include the bullpup layout makes it more compact, while the controls are ambidextrous and the rails allow easy addition and removal of specialised equipment.

Also in terms of performance the AS in 9 x 39mm calibre is rated as effective out to 300m, while the 12.7 x 55mm round is rated as effective out to 600m with sniper ammo, and is more effective against heavier armour types.

This suggests that the 12.7 x 55mm round might replace the 9 x 39mm ammo in service in the near future.

Note the 9 x 39mm ammo was initially expensive so the fact that they adopted the AS and VSS so widely suggests it is rather more efficient for quiet work than subsonic 7.62 x 39mm ammo in suppressed AKM type weapons as the latter would be much cheaper and logistically easier, with the advantage of being able to switch to super sonic ammo when the game was up as the supersonic 7.62mm ammo is flatter shooting and offers better performance.

The photo above of the AK-12 is designed for the ministry of the interior, but it matches the description of the AK-200.

I rather suspect that the 5.45mm version will be offered to the Russian Army to replace the AK-74, while this 12.7mm version will be offered to replace the AS, and the 7.62 x 39mm and 5.56mm models will be offered for export.

There will likely be short and long barrel models, and machine guns have been mentioned but I now expect that that means an RPK version in 5.45mm. I would obviously prefer a 6 x 49mm version in automatic for an RPK replacement (the RPK-74 is largely being supplimented and replaced by the Pecheneg (PKP) because although it is heavier it has more reach and power... an AK-12 in 6 x 49mm would combine the advantages of a modern rimless round with the range and power comparable to the 7.62 x 54mm round while being flat shooting high velocity and lighter ammo) and in semi auto only as a designated marksman rifle to replace the SVDS.

The result would be a Russian unit would have this bullpup in 5.45mm as a standard assault rifle, plus a few semi auto in 6 x 49mm instead of SVDs, and full auto in 6 x 49mm instead of the RPK-74, with either a PKP or PKM in 6 x 49mm as a unit support weapon. The PKP and PKM can be redesigned as the 6 x 49mm round is rimless so would be easier to strip from the ammo belt and rammed into the chamber.

Recon units with AS rifles can now have compatible AK-12s in a calibre that offes much longer effective range.

The rails covering all these rifles mean front grips or bipods or underbarrel grenade launchers and scopes can be clipped on an off easily as needed.

This will really give the ADS a run for its money... the main advantage of the ADS is that it has forward ejection so you can shoot left or right handed without adjustment.

For those wondering why that is so important... in a built up area there are situations where you need to shoot around corners.
If you can shoot from both shoulders then you can minimise your exposure to enemy fire.

In other words if you can only fire from one shoulder then firing around a left hand corner or right hand corner means round one corner you are just poking the rifle and one eye around the corner, while with the other hand corner you have to expose your whole head and entire chest to get the rifle around far enough to shoot. Being able to fire from both shoulders means you can just swap shoulders and only expose your shoulder and rifle and half your head... becoming a much smaller target... of course if the enemy is using 12/7 x 55mm armour piercing rounds they could simply shoot you through the corner of the wall...

I wonder how modular it is...

Perhaps having a removable barrel and mag well you could change between 5.45mm, 5.56mm, and 7.62 x 39mm and 12.7 x 55mm weapons.

That would also mean you could carry longer barrels too to convert between a short barrel carbine, a rifle, and LMG/DMR length barrel.

This would be useful for Special forces because they could work with one weapon instead of having separate 5.45 and 9 x 39mm weapons etc.

It is called ASh-12.

It looks like it is loosely based on the Vychlop design.
I would suspect there will be at least 2 types of 12.7x55 rounds:
- One subsonic (heavy bullet) one to be used with the supressed Vychlop.
- One supersonic (lighter bullet) to be used on the ASh-12.

Except the control configuration is different.

Notice the fire selector just above the thumb... I will wager it is repeated on the other side too so the weapon can be fired left or right handed.
The push button within trigger finger reach in front of the fire selector will be the safety and being a push button system will also be repeated on the other side to enable it to be disengaged.

The flap covering the ejection port will likely also be repeated on the other side with an option the change shell ejection sides so the weapon can be used left or right handed.

This rifle is in 12.7 x 55mm because this particular model is clearly intended to replace the AS. The Vychlop will be its bigger brother and will likely replace the VSS.

A 5.45mm model will therefore likely be intended to replace the AK-74M.

It is perfectly possible that a higher velocity round might have been developed for this weapon as it is not integrally silenced, however as the original round was deemed effective out to 600m I don't see a huge benefit to having higher velocity ammo, though it might be more effective against some types of targets.

With a good sling setup you could operate this rifle with one hand... fit a 60 round 5.45mm calibre mag to it and this is serious competition with the ADS.

Note with the 9 x 39mm this new round will be replacing even though the AS and VSS were integrally suppressed they could still use supersonic rounds safely when being quiet was no longer important, but there are no known 9 x 39mm supersonic rounds I know of.

Equally the 9A-91, SR-3, Groza, and VSK-94 came with attachable silencers, but could be used without them, so a supersonic round might have been useful for them... but again AFAIK there were no supersonic 9 x 39mm rounds.

Very simply you used the 9 x 39mm round when you wanted to be quiet and hit hard, and I suspect the 12.7 x 55mm round calibre weapons will be for the same purpose. If you don't care about the noise then an SVD would have better range and would be much cheaper.

Certainly if there was an advantage to lighter faster rounds they might be worth adopting... when a rifle fires there are two main sounds... a bang or pop depending on the power of the weapon and the crack of the supersonic projectile as it travels through the air compressing the air and forming a sound wave in front of it as it travels.
A suppressor gets rid of the bang of the gas escaping past the bullet as it leaves the barrel, and with subsonic ammo there is little noise so the enemy may not even know they are being fired upon. With a suppressor and supersonic ammo the suppressor deals with the bang, but the crack of the supersonic bullet will make the shot clearly heard out to quite a distance.
However while the enemy will know they are under fire, normally you can guess where the shot came from by listening to the order of the crack and the bang, so without the bang it becomes much harder to work out where the shot came from.

Normally subsonic rounds limit the effective range of a weapon so having a supersonic option is often a solution to extend effective range, but this 12.7mm round is effective to 600m so I really don't understand an obvious advantage to having a supersonic lighter projectile. The trajectories will be totally different so unless you zero two scopes... one for each round and swap scopes when you swap ammo types I can see problems with accuracy.

Of course an ASh-12 without a suppressor using only supersonic ammo doesn't have that zeroing problem.

Based on this:

Based on the AK-12 is planned to create a whole line of automatic rifles - Short for special forces to the machine-gun set to infantry. In this now creates a few samples of AK-12 ammunition of various calibres under - the traditional 5.45, 5.56, 7.62 (all mm), and fundamentally new caliber, the number is on the "Izhmash" clarify refused, citing a Russian state secret.

from njb1s post above a whole line of weapons in the AK-12 family, which presumably includes the ASh-12 (thanks TheArmenian) in 12.7 x 55mm. A whole line would... I suspect, include a very short barrel SMG model, a short barrel carbine model, a standard length rifle model and a long barrel LMG model... and possibly even a 12 gauge model too?
The secret calibre model is clearly the 12.7 x 55mm... which is good, but not as cool as a 6 x 49mm calibre rifle to replace the SVDS, and a light machine gun model to better replace the 5.45mm RPK with a cartridge with better range and power.

Having looked at the photo above very carefully I see there is a small latch near the buttstock and it looks like the buttstock is adjustable for angle and possibly length to suite soldiers with or without body armour on I suppose.

This makes it rather interesting in that it solves many fundamental problems like the positioning of controls, retaining barrel length with a compact design, adding rails to make attaching equipment without making the rifle uncomfortable or awkward to hold.

It doesn't allow quick easy left or right hand shooting though that might be possible with adjustment, so the ADS is superior in that regard, but if you can swap out barrels and bolts so you can change barrel length and calibre then this could be a very good system that might not need replacing again for some time.

I do think they should consider the 6 x 49mm round unless it is fundamentally flawed and they didn't get the results they wanted and so they are leaving it till a real breakthrough is at hand like caseless ammo, or liquid propellent, or EM guns or whatever.

They are not replacing the 5.45mm round... which makes sense as it really doesn't need replacing in the role it serves, but I think with the 6 x 49mm the recoil would be interesting compared with the 7.62 x 39mm while the extra velocity would greatly improve its range and performance on target.

The 7.62 x 39mm is kept in service because some users in special forces seem to prefer a heavier bullet that can penetrate through to protected targets, so the 6 x 49mm would offer a good replacement for the 7.62 x 54mm and the 7.62 x 39mm perhaps...

They could retain the 7.62 x 39mm for export of course... and for the sake of flexibility they could also add a 9 x 39mm range of barrels with built in suppressors. I know the barrel for the AS is something like 10-15cm long, so it doesn't need a lot of barrel yet is effective out to 300m.

Well there was this photo of the Vychlop that was with the ASh-12 photo... along with the new SV-338, but I noticed something interesting on the Vychlop I hadn't noticed before...



If you look carefully there is a push button safety where the shooter could reach with their trigger finger just like on the ASh-12, so they clearly share their design.

More importantly I have found a photo of three different 12.7 x 55mm rounds.



Now just looking at them I rather suspect the first from the left is a standard Ball round... ie lead or steel core with a copper jacket to reduce wear or deposits on the barrel.
The second bullet looks like it is made of solid bronze, which would make this the accurate but more expensive Sniper round.
The third round is clearly an armour piercing round.

The question is, are any of them supersonic?

I suspect the ball and bronze rounds are for the Vychlop and therefore would be subsonic. I also however suspect the armour piercing is probably subsonic so it can be used in suppressed rifles too. If there are supersonic rounds I would suspect a supersonic armour piercing round is most likely, while a supersonic bronze round might also be an option for longer range shots.

New World Guns dot ru page about the ASh-12 that is well worth a look.

It answers a lot of questions... this weapon, like the Vychlop, was designed for the FSB, so I remember someone saying the AK-200 was already in service with the FSB meant this weapon but it is developed by KBP... so this is not the Kalashnikov weapon we talked about above... and it also means the secret calibre weapon perhaps could still be the 6 x 49mm for machine gun or designated marksman roles to replace RPK/Pecheneg and SVD respectively but in a conventional rifle format rather than bullpup???


The page describes the standard ammo as being supersonic which explains this:

That earlier photo with what I mistook at first to be a grenade launcher seems to be a three shot silenced revolver... so you can quietly take down centuries or guard dogs without using your primary weapon, which means your primary weapon can be all supersonic ammo so you don't need a suppressor on the end of the weapon... which keeps it shorter.

Further details here:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ash-12_7-assault-rifle-e.html

So this means that KBP might enter a variant of this weapon instead of their ADS, or they might put up both weapons.

Interesting that they called the rifle ASh-12 and the makers of the Kalashnikov (Izhmash) went for AK-12... I guess for Izhmash it was the next number, while for Kovrov the number is relevant to the calibre.

So with the Izhmash being made in real metal... probably right now, so that it will be ready for tests at the end of December, it will be interesting to see whether they have retained a standard rifle layout, or if they have caved and gone for a bullpup.

Whatever they make they will likely get very stiff competition from an ASh-12 based rifle in 5.45mm calibre plus perhaps an ADS, both from KBP, a new model perhaps from Kovrov based on the AEK with perhaps a balanced recoil mechanism, and from Nikonov a further update of the AN-94... perhaps simplified internally to make it easier to operate and maintain?

Sounds like really stiff competition.

If the Izhmash weapon is fully modular and includes a full family of weapons from SMG, through carbine, assault rifle, LMG, and designated marksman rifle (ie SVD replacement), with the latter two in 6 x 49mm or 7.62 x 54mm as an option, then they might get the nod for retaining simplicity.

The controls could simply be improved by putting an extra level fire selector on the left side of the rifle and perhaps changing to a push button safety that is within reach of your thumb or forefinger.

To fix the cocking lever to make it ambidextrous you could (most simply) extend the handle upwards to make it easier to reach over to it, or with more of a change put a folding cocking handle on the left side that doesn't go back and forth as the weapon fires. This however will mean that the weapon can no longer use standard Soviet and Russian sights that mount on the traditional side rail so a picatinny rail along the top becomes a requirement.

From the World guns ru site the ammo:



From the left there is a standard 7.62 x 39mm round (for size comparisons), then a .499LWR, then a .50 Beowulf, and on the far right a 12.7 x 55mm shell case. Note 12.7mm = .50 cal.

This weapon would have some really serious knockdown power and could probably be used to take out locks and hinges before the team goes through the door.

If recon forces are looking to extend the range of the AS and VSS then this weapon and the Vychlop would be the ideal choice, especially against threats in heavy body armour, but it is still a pretty niche weapon that police and special forces will enjoy.

Gives us a pretty clear indication about what they mean regarding the new rail system that doesn't make the weapon so uncomfortable to hold/handle.

In many ways the new rails actually look a bit like the side rails for scopes with latch attachment and removal.

To fully benefit from the full length top rail multiple scope ability the bullpups will likely need to drop the carrying handle idea and go for a flat top with fold up iron sights.

This would allow a standard low power scope to be fitted most of the time, which on its own would improve shooting performance by eliminating alignment issues, with the added advantage of a better (nonblurry) view of the target and crosshairs.

Once zeroed, if it gets dark then a night vision scope could be mounted in front to allow the standard scope to be used at night with a night vision monocular in front.

I rather suspect that eventually when these future soldier sets are finally sorted out that Russian soldiers will get night vision monoculars that can be mounted on their helmet like goggles, or hand held, or mounted on their rifle, but their standard rifle scope might be a thermal sight with a laser rangefinder and ballistic computer.

Uncooled QWIP thermal imagers should become cheaper as time moves on, and also offer the chance to use low light level sensitivity, plus long, medium, and short IR wavelengths to maximise the quality of the view.

The Russians are already working on Image Intensification scopes of very high quality and a little bit of processing that can distinguish natural from artificial colours. In other words a bad guy wearing the exact same green as the plants he is hiding amongst will stand out because the colours on his uniform are not natural colours.

The future will be QWIPs based sensors that are sensitive in IR, UV and visible light, so the II technology can be applied to the visible light spectrum.

I think they call it data fusion.

Can someone please remind KBP to update its products website. They don't have the Vychlop, ASh-12 and a few other items yet on their site.
www.kbptula.ru

I just realized (as per the world.guns.ru website) that ASh stands for "Avtomat Shturmovoy"...Hey, it means that it has an automatic fire selection!!!!

Yes, the forward button directly above the trigger finger is the safety so the switch at the rear is a fire selector switch and will likely be repeated on the other side of the weapon.

Hard to say how controllable it would be in full auto as we don't really know what sort of rate of fire it achieves, and what level of recoil the different rounds produce.

I believe these weapons are custom designed for the FSB so they might not be for export as such... I suspect that export in these roles they would prefer to sell 9A-91 and VSK-94 in 9 x 39mm.

The new ammo was right in front of my face... when they posted the photo of the guy holding the ASh-12 there was another photo of nice shiny bullets of all sorts of types.

Here is it here:



There were so many strange rounds I thought they were wildcats, but now I read the world guns page it makes sense.

There are three vertical columns of bullets and from the top left the first 4 are various types of 12.7x55mm rounds for this new assault rifle. The last two bullets are 9mm NATO and 9mm Makarov, presumably used by the force this cartridge board is base around.

The centre column it is hard to read the shiny plate but this is likely a 12.7 x 107mm round optimised for long range shooting... as opposed to the standard 12.7 x 107mm HMG round.

The next three rounds in the centre column are 12.7 x 55mm rounds specifically designed for the Vychlop suppressed sniper rifle and will all have heavy subsonic bullets.
The next two rounds are 8.6 x 69mm... 8.6 x 70mm is a .338 LM, so it might be a Russian designation of that round.

The top three rounds in the third column seem to have 7.62 x 69mm on their plaques, and the only round to match that designation I can find is the .300 Lapua Magnum.

The next round seems to be a 4.5mm high velocity sub calibre projectile loaded into the 9mm NATO case, and the last two rounds seem to be 5.45mm calibre rounds.

The first a standard looking round and the second looks a bit like an early underwater round before they used a sabot.

Well this is embarrassing... what I originally identified as an under barrel grenade launcher and then identified above as a three shot under barrel suppressed revolver is a mistake.

The caption under the picture says:

ASh-12.7 assault rifle prototype with 3-shot revolver UBGL and silencer.

I seem to have ignored the UBGL, or under barrel grenade launcher, so it has a 3 shot revolving under barrel grenade launcher and the rifle with the 3 shot revolving grenade launcher is also fitted with a silencer.

That makes this under barrel grenade launcher pretty new... and of unknown calibre.

Possibly AK-107 with 60 round magazine. But I am not sure.

http://www.izhmash.ru/pix/news/meeting_ioz1.jpg

I agree it's an AK107 ....not an AK12...this pic has been on the Izhmash news page , in Russian , for some days .