Dassault Rafale Thread

GarryB wrote:Or it could be like the tank project that went tits up and everybody ended up making their own tanks...

Could you be speaking about MBT-70/KPz 70 project? A joint US-Germany MBT project marred with disagreements that range from gun and engine elements and even up to unit measurement (metric vs imperial) so much so that it was eventually abandoned?

To be fair tho, left up to their own devices, The US and Germany eventually developed respectable tanks afterwards (M1 Abrams and Leo 2, IIRC), which no doubt had lessons taken from MBT-70/KPz 70 programme

Finty wrote:

You watch, Germany and France will fall out and the Jerries will join the UK et al on Tempest. Well, that's what I want to see at least!

IMHO Germany needs to stick to France if they want to get a bit more independence. France is not part of Anglo-Saxon world. Not to mention then both UK and US have still occupational forces on German ground. No independent country has occupational forces on its soil. Germany would not get permit for nukes France has them and a seat in security council. Germans have biggest economy in EU. Second after Russian in Europe. So French-German interest coincidence is much stronger then the one might think.

Especially now when UK decided to play Anglo-Saxon league (AUKUS most recently), there's neither place for Germany nor for France there, The question is whether second league like Spain or Italy will gravitate towards Franco-German core or rathe towards UK/US in military programmes.

This french-german coworking on every new project alliance is retarded.

It never worked and will never.

German should just create their own aircraft. Nazi knew how to do so.

Tempest is even less likely to happen. They will buy that US 6th gen fighter. Tempest program is made by UK, Italy and Sweeden. Mainly I think. 3 US bitch that have to buy US stuff.

Isos wrote:This french-german coworking on every new project alliance is retarded.

Did you mean delayed? Well at least they try to do something on their own without US. Its not only about weapons its about new technology. I hope they'll succeed. Whether UK can do Tempest? with current cuts in defence programmes 50:50.

Im sure US will keep pushing own solutions. Yet all sanctions against other countries might be ano go for US export in this case.

German should just create their own aircraft. Nazi knew how to do so.

Germans did. Nazi were like cancer on Germany.

14 French Rafale fighters disassembled for parts

According to French publications, on October 6, 2021, at a hearing in the Senate of the French National Assembly, the Minister of the French Armed Forces, Florence Parley, voiced what the French military has long been talking about on the sidelines:
“14 Rafale aircraft of the French aerospace forces are tightly nailed to the ground because they are simply disassembled for parts. " Fighter Dassault Rafale C Aerospace Forces France (c) Aerospace Forces France

As of July 1, 2020, the French Aerospace Forces had 102 Dassault Rafale fighters, but having aircraft does not mean flying them, 14 of them were completely unusable and were partially disassembled to maintain the remaining aircraft of this type in flight condition. Professionals blame the Defense Planning Act (LPM) for 2009-2014 for this situation, when, due to the failures of Dassault Aircraff in exporting Rafale aircraft, the military bought Rafale aircraft from it without a set of spare parts, so over time some of them themselves has become a source of missing parts.

If LPM 2019-2025 is implemented in full, then by 2025 the combat strength of the French Aerospace Forces will reach 129 Rafale aircraft, while the order of the French armed forces from Dassault Aviation will be financed, including through the sale of 12 used Greece in 2021-2022. Rafale from the presence of videoconferencing. As soon as the Greek contract was signed in January 2021, Armed Forces Minister Florence Parley soon notified Dassault Aviation of the order for the Aerospace Forces to replace the 12 Rafale sold in F3R standard. The order, she explained to the newspaper Les Echos, would be “funded under the Defense Planning Law, the loans of which will be supplemented by proceeds from the sale of used aircraft in Greece,” which was then estimated at 400 million euros.

However, now Parley says that “first and foremost, the contract with Greece will help restore aircraft that are not flying. It's not just a matter of an MCO (maintenance to maintain flight) contract, it's also a fact of being able to reintroduce aircraft, which in a sense served as a reservoir of spare parts. ” Thus, the proceeds from the sale of aircraft in Greece will not be used to finance the order for 12 new Rafale, which will be delivered to the French Aerospace Forces in 2025.

At the same time, Minister Parley and military specialists are unanimous in their opinion - this practice of using working equipment as a source of spare parts to maintain the rest in working order is not new, and is often used, especially in countries with severe restrictions on the military budget.

The minister is full of optimism, "The sale of used Rafale aircraft to Greece will not only make it possible to earn 400 million euros, but also to supply the French armed forces, instead of old, more modern aircraft capable of performing the most complex combat missions." The new aircraft, Parley said, will be “a plus for the Aerospace Forces, since on average our Rafale fleet will be more modern than what we would have had without these orders.” The military partly agreed with their minister: forces not only and not so much to make beautiful flights on Bastille Day, but to maintain their military potential, in other words, to be able to wage war. "

In addition to modern aviation technology, the French aerospace forces need well-trained technicians and pilots. They need to provide a sufficient number of flight hours, purchase modern equipment (sensors, radar, overhead containers, etc.), not forgetting about a sufficient amount of weapons and ammunition. All this is necessary for them to fulfill their direct task: to conduct hostilities for a certain time, but some of the needs are sacrificed in order to fit into the framework of the military budget.

As for the contract with Croatia for the supply of 12 Rafale fighters from the French Aerospace Forces, everything is less certain here, and negotiations are still ongoing. but if it is implemented, the French Aerospace Forces will receive in return from the industry the latest Rafale aircraft of the F4 standard. However, only after signing the contract, Dassault Aviation will place a new order for new aircraft.
"Firstly, we will replenish this fleet as we planned to do" under the Greek contract, and secondly, we are exploring scenarios for enhancing the technical capabilities of [Rafale]. I mean, in particular, the fact that we do not have enough TALIOS suspended containers and radar [with AFAR]. Here we also intend to use the proceeds from the sale, ”Parley said.

With a military budget of two percent of GDP, the French armed forces will receive only "equipment", but they need real "operational capabilities" for which there are not enough funds ...

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4415237.html

2 Rafals make contact at airshow. Both land

France: DGA receives second Rafale B360 aircraft for French Air and Space Force

The Directorate General of Armament (DGA) has taken delivery of the second Rafale B360 twin-seater aircraft at Dassault Aviation's facility in Mérignac, destined for the French Air and Space Force. The aircraft was then transported to the DGA Flight Test and Expertise Center in Istres to be upgraded to the F4.1 standard.
Photo: DGA.

The Directorate General of Armament (DGA) has taken delivery of the second Rafale B360 twin-seater aircraft at Dassault Aviation's facility in Mérignac, destined for the French Air and Space Force. The aircraft was then transported to the DGA Flight Test and Expertise Center in Istres to be upgraded to the F4.1 standard.

This Rafale B360 is part of a total order of 40 aircraft planned for delivery by the end of 2025, including 13 to the French Air and Space Force in 2023. Currently, the DGA has placed an order for 192 series aircraft, out of which 154 have already been delivered. An additional order for 42 Rafale aircraft is planned in 2023.

All Rafale B360 twin-seater aircraft will undergo the F4-1 upgrade before being delivered to the French Air and Space Force. The F4-1 standard represents the latest advancements and enhancements in the Rafale’s capabilities.

The Rafale is a multirole fighter aircraft that has proven its effectiveness in various missions, including air superiority, ground attack, and reconnaissance. With its advanced avionics, powerful engines, and weapon systems, the Rafale continues to strengthen the operational capabilities of the French Air and Space Force.


https://defence-industry.eu/france-dga-receives-second-rafale-b360-aircraft-for-french-air-and-space-force/

Qatar in talks to buy 24 more Rafale fighter jets

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4728843.html

France buys 42 Rafale jets for more than $5.5 billion

https://news.yahoo.com/france-buys-42-rafale-jets-175537064.html

Dassault Aviation is overloaded with orders for the Rafale fighter

The blog of the London Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) published an interesting material by Tim Lawrenson, Douglas Barrie "Dassault's whirlwind of Rafale orders may be too much of a good thing" ("The flow of orders for Rafale may be too good for Dassault ") that the French company Dassault Aviation is overloaded with an oversupply of orders for the Rafale fighter, which has become a hit in the global aerospace defense market, and it is unclear whether it will be able to provide adequate production volumes of the aircraft. Assembly of Rafale fighters at the enterprise of the French company Dassault Aviation in Merignac (c) Dassault Aviation

Dassault's order volume for the Rafale has reached new heights. While overbooking is a good problem, it is still a problem.

Dassault regularly emphasizes its ability to begin delivering Rafale combat aircraft to potential customers just three years after signing a contract. However, the recent flurry of Rafale sales could make that 36-month commitment less feasible and even jeopardize some future deals.

IISS estimates that Dassault's Rafale production backlog has grown to 228 aircraft. This number reflects Indonesia's confirmation in January 2024 that it would take the last 18 aircraft of the 42 Rafale pre-orders announced two years ago, as well as France's order for 42 aircraft in December 2023.

Production Capacity

The large order backlog could pose challenges for deal-making in the near term, with particular pressure on Rafale industrial production expected in the 2026-33 period. Over this eight-year period, Dassault is expected to deliver a total of 174 aircraft to France (the latest order for 42 aircraft), Indonesia (42), the United Arab Emirates (80) and Egypt (the last 10 aircraft of a subsequent order for 30).

Dassault is also supplying the French armed forces with the long-delayed 27 aircraft from an order placed in 2009, as well as 12 aircraft to replenish the aircraft Paris ordered from Greece's inventory. In addition, Athens has yet to receive the last four of the six new Rafales it ordered in 2021, as well as an additional six ordered in 2022.

The French aircraft maker had planned to produce 15 Rafales last year but produced only 13. The company has not yet given production forecasts for 2024, although production is expected to increase this year and next given strong demand. However, it is unlikely that the annual number of aircraft delivered will increase rapidly before the mid-2020s.

If Dassault produces an average of 20 Rafales per year in 2024 and 2025, it will need to deliver 188 aircraft between 2026 and 2033. This means that the delivery rate should be almost 24 aircraft per year. Achieving that target by 2026 is likely within reach, given that Dassault previously managed to increase production to more than 20 aircraft per year when Egypt, India and Qatar were expecting deliveries. However, India recently announced its firm intention to order 27 aircraft for its navy in 2024, and New Delhi will likely want to receive them well before 2033. In this scenario, Dassault's required production rate could be closer to 27 aircraft per year. The Indian Air Force has also long stated its intention to acquire 36 more aircraft, which could raise the required delivery level above 31 Rafales per year.

Dassault said it could increase production to at least three aircraft per month, significantly easing bottlenecks. Another benefit for the company is that it can shift workers away from the production of Falcon business jets, the volume of orders for which fell last year. However, there are still many obstacles on the way to producing more aircraft. While Dassault relies heavily on a domestic supply chain for the Rafale, which insulates it to some extent from global supply issues, the company and its suppliers are not immune to the problems. A shortage of engineering talent may also hamper a surge in Rafale production. In reality, the Rafale industrial machine should more than double its annual production. Such decisions inevitably mean an expansion of staff, production and tooling, which requires significant investment. Some suppliers may fear that production rates of 30-plus aircraft per year will not be sustainable and could saddle them with costly excess capacity if demand subsequently falls.

What might this mean for any new customers that may place a new large order in the next couple of years, and for Dassault's three-year supply commitment? Dassault may still be able to adjust its plans to meet the 36-month deadline for first delivery. But this may mean that the customer will receive only a symbolic quantity - one or two aircraft per year - for a long period of time. Most new customers with large contracts will want at least six aircraft per year to train flight and ground crews into full-fledged squadrons - and achieving these targets can be an insurmountable obstacle.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4800096.html

Yeah it is only selling this much because of CAATSA. The sales to Egypt, and Indonesia are examples of this.
Both countries have had their weapons purchases restricted by the US, have bought Russian weapons in the past, if it wasn't for CAATSA they would buy Russian again.

I doubt the French will have any issues delivering these aircraft. In case of lack of production they will just delay deliveries to the French Air Force.

These sales will also help Dassault fund development of their 5th generation aircraft regardless of what the Germans end up doing to the project.

TMA1 wrote:The rafale is an effective and lovely fighter and french aerospace has continued to garner a name of excellence thru its creation.

But beyond giving them their due credit they should be thanking their lucky stars for CAATSA.

Not only. Many wabt a different supplier than Russia/USA to not fall in the new west vs east ideology.

France isn't the best alternative because of its ties to the US. But there isn't that many nations producing real fighter jets.

South Korea is also winning lot of contracts for plenty of military products that those clients were purshasing from the US like Poland or more recently UAE and Saudis.

More than $130mln a piece ...
They aren't shy, that's sure