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    Dassault Rafale Thread

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    Militarov

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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Yeah but many solutions on Rafale are light years ahead compared to MiG29, aeronautic technology made huge leap in 10 years that are splitting their original designs. MiG29K is still basically just old good MiG29 with certain improvements, Rafale is simply alot better aircraft there is no question about it, that is why i would like seeing for future carriers new platform, PAK-FA based or not doesnt rly matter.

    What a load of crap.

    Rafale is a vastly over priced piece of junk... for the retail price of one Rafale Russia could buy 5 or 6 MiG-35s and guess what... with thrust vectoring engines there is no way for the Rafale to beat the MiG in close combat and with a modern AESA radar and modern AAMs the MiG is at no disadvantage at BVR either.

    The so called new aerodynamics of the Rafale offer zero advantage in real combat... the new stuff it carries around with it just make it unaffordable to most countries.

    The so called superior design in terms of shape offer no real tangible advantage, while new engines and avionics means an older aircraft design can be every bit as capable as a newer model.

    Rafale is an inciredible machine, same as Mirages were back in time. Mirage was often called out for overpriced too compared to US machines, however here we are 40 years later and they are still flying with great combat results though the time. They did alot better than their "affordable" US and Russian counterparts of same era.

    And yes Rafale is overall better machine than MiG29K, i am very sorry but thats true. France always had great aviation industry not sure from where comes that sudden hate for Dassault.

    I am not talking about price here, Rafale is overpriced mainly due to fact it was soloely developed by France, they are trying to find ways to get their funds back, best way, selling them expencive. Considering fact US built F16 Block 60 is nearing its price tag i still call Rafale far better deal.

    And i was talking about global advances in aeronautics including engines, electronics, radars.. everything. Only real drawback of Rafale is still somewhat lacking armaments range compared to counterparts, which as we all know can be easily changed on request.

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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:44 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Yeah but many solutions on Rafale are light years ahead compared to MiG29, aeronautic technology made huge leap in 10 years that are splitting their original designs. MiG29K is still basically just old good MiG29 with certain improvements, Rafale is simply alot better aircraft there is no question about it, that is why i would like seeing for future carriers new platform, PAK-FA based or not doesnt rly matter.

    What a load of crap.

    Rafale is a vastly over priced piece of junk... for the retail price of one Rafale Russia could buy 5 or 6 MiG-35s and guess what... with thrust vectoring engines there is no way for the Rafale to beat the MiG in close combat and with a modern AESA radar and modern AAMs the MiG is at no disadvantage at BVR either.

    The so called new aerodynamics of the Rafale offer zero advantage in real combat... the new stuff it carries around with it just make it unaffordable to most countries.

    The so called superior design in terms of shape offer no real tangible advantage, while new engines and avionics means an older aircraft design can be every bit as capable as a newer model.

    Rafale is an inciredible machine, same as Mirages were back in time. Mirage was often called out for overpriced too compared to US machines, however here we are 40 years later and they are still flying with great combat results though the time. They did alot better than their "affordable" US and Russian counterparts of same era.

    And yes Rafale is overall better machine than MiG29K, i am very sorry but thats true. France always had great aviation industry not sure from where comes that sudden hate for Dassault.

    I am not talking about price here, Rafale is overpriced mainly due to fact it was soloely developed by France, they are trying to find ways to get their funds back, best way, selling them expencive. Considering fact US built F16 Block 60 is nearing its price tag i still call Rafale far better deal.

    And i was talking about global advances in aeronautics including engines, electronics, radars.. everything. Only real drawback of Rafale is still somewhat lacking armaments range compared to counterparts, which as we all know can be easily changed on request.

    What? For talking about how good it is, this post of yours lacks substance.

    We barely know how effective each sides ecm/eccm systems are so we can ignore it.  Rafale may have greater range than Mig-29K but lacking tvc engines puts it at a disadvantage at close combat with MiG-29K.  Radar in question is also questionable as the RBK AESA is apparently still not quite ready (much like Zhuk-A) and some of the avionocs are similar due to lisence production (KRET probably now replacing any due to import substitution).

    Rafale is indeed an overpriced jet for what it is.  And the benefit of the jet now politically is also dead due to France being a bitch of the US.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:28 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Yeah but many solutions on Rafale are light years ahead compared to MiG29, aeronautic technology made huge leap in 10 years that are splitting their original designs. MiG29K is still basically just old good MiG29 with certain improvements, Rafale is simply alot better aircraft there is no question about it, that is why i would like seeing for future carriers new platform, PAK-FA based or not doesnt rly matter.

    What a load of crap.

    Rafale is a vastly over priced piece of junk... for the retail price of one Rafale Russia could buy 5 or 6 MiG-35s and guess what... with thrust vectoring engines there is no way for the Rafale to beat the MiG in close combat and with a modern AESA radar and modern AAMs the MiG is at no disadvantage at BVR either.

    The so called new aerodynamics of the Rafale offer zero advantage in real combat... the new stuff it carries around with it just make it unaffordable to most countries.

    The so called superior design in terms of shape offer no real tangible advantage, while new engines and avionics means an older aircraft design can be every bit as capable as a newer model.

    Rafale is an inciredible machine, same as Mirages were back in time. Mirage was often called out for overpriced too compared to US machines, however here we are 40 years later and they are still flying with great combat results though the time. They did alot better than their "affordable" US and Russian counterparts of same era.

    And yes Rafale is overall better machine than MiG29K, i am very sorry but thats true. France always had great aviation industry not sure from where comes that sudden hate for Dassault.

    I am not talking about price here, Rafale is overpriced mainly due to fact it was soloely developed by France, they are trying to find ways to get their funds back, best way, selling them expencive. Considering fact US built F16 Block 60 is nearing its price tag i still call Rafale far better deal.

    And i was talking about global advances in aeronautics including engines, electronics, radars.. everything. Only real drawback of Rafale is still somewhat lacking armaments range compared to counterparts, which as we all know can be easily changed on request.

    What? For talking about how good it is, this post of yours lacks substance.

    We barely know how effective each sides ecm/eccm systems are so we can ignore it.  Rafale may have greater range than Mig-29K but lacking tvc engines puts it at a disadvantage at close combat with MiG-29K.  Radar in question is also questionable as the RBK AESA is apparently still not quite ready (much like Zhuk-A) and some of the avionocs are similar due to lisence production (KRET probably now replacing any due to import substitution).

    Rafale is indeed an overpriced jet for what it is.  And the benefit of the jet now politically is also dead due to France being a bitch of the US.

    Everything i need to know about new MiG29 variants i saw on airshow in Belgrade. Ofc its cheap, it looks like it was bult with sledge hammer, dents everywhere, rust appearing... there is big difference between rugged and horrid build quality so here is good reason why its so cheap. It was beyond sad to look at it and it was basically new MiG29M2. MiG is these days, rust bucket filled with imported avionics and it will be like that unless they do decent job with MiG35 and i am starting to lose hope here.

    Imo MiG29K is expencive too... for what it is. And time will show that i am sadly, i repeat, sadly...right.
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:53 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Yeah but many solutions on Rafale are light years ahead compared to MiG29, aeronautic technology made huge leap in 10 years that are splitting their original designs. MiG29K is still basically just old good MiG29 with certain improvements, Rafale is simply alot better aircraft there is no question about it, that is why i would like seeing for future carriers new platform, PAK-FA based or not doesnt rly matter.

    What a load of crap.

    Rafale is a vastly over priced piece of junk... for the retail price of one Rafale Russia could buy 5 or 6 MiG-35s and guess what... with thrust vectoring engines there is no way for the Rafale to beat the MiG in close combat and with a modern AESA radar and modern AAMs the MiG is at no disadvantage at BVR either.

    The so called new aerodynamics of the Rafale offer zero advantage in real combat... the new stuff it carries around with it just make it unaffordable to most countries.

    The so called superior design in terms of shape offer no real tangible advantage, while new engines and avionics means an older aircraft design can be every bit as capable as a newer model.

    Rafale is an inciredible machine, same as Mirages were back in time. Mirage was often called out for overpriced too compared to US machines, however here we are 40 years later and they are still flying with great combat results though the time. They did alot better than their "affordable" US and Russian counterparts of same era.

    And yes Rafale is overall better machine than MiG29K, i am very sorry but thats true. France always had great aviation industry not sure from where comes that sudden hate for Dassault.

    I am not talking about price here, Rafale is overpriced mainly due to fact it was soloely developed by France, they are trying to find ways to get their funds back, best way, selling them expencive. Considering fact US built F16 Block 60 is nearing its price tag i still call Rafale far better deal.

    And i was talking about global advances in aeronautics including engines, electronics, radars.. everything. Only real drawback of Rafale is still somewhat lacking armaments range compared to counterparts, which as we all know can be easily changed on request.

    What? For talking about how good it is, this post of yours lacks substance.

    We barely know how effective each sides ecm/eccm systems are so we can ignore it.  Rafale may have greater range than Mig-29K but lacking tvc engines puts it at a disadvantage at close combat with MiG-29K.  Radar in question is also questionable as the RBK AESA is apparently still not quite ready (much like Zhuk-A) and some of the avionocs are similar due to lisence production (KRET probably now replacing any due to import substitution).

    Rafale is indeed an overpriced jet for what it is.  And the benefit of the jet now politically is also dead due to France being a bitch of the US.

    Everything i need to know about new MiG29 variants i saw on airshow in Belgrade. Ofc its cheap, it looks like it was bult with sledge hammer, dents everywhere, rust appearing... there is big difference between rugged and horrid build quality so here is good reason why its so cheap. It was beyond sad to look at it and it was basically new MiG29M2. MiG is these days, rust bucket filled with imported avionics and it will be like that unless they do decent job with MiG35 and i am starting to lose hope here.

    Imo MiG29K is expencive too... for what it is. And time will show that i am sadly, i repeat, sadly...right.
    And how long ago was this? How old was that build?  You can lose hope all you want but it really isnt the case.  MiG-29K for Russia and Indian MiG-29KUB have been built pretty well.  Anecdotal evidence of a single plane isnt anything to go by.  Wanna post pics of rusted MiG-29's?
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Militarov on Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:21 am


    And how long ago was this? How old was that build?  You can lose hope all you want but it really isnt the case.  MiG-29K for Russia and Indian MiG-29KUB have been built pretty well.  Anecdotal evidence of a single plane isnt anything to go by.  Wanna post pics of rusted MiG-29's?

    It was i belive 2012. airshow for 100 years of Serbian airforce, i am having trouble separating airshows as there were two where Russians were present and i was on both. It was twin seat MiG29M2 and up close it was not very pleasant to look at. I remember Turks making jokes about it as they were with F16 there (at least i think) and they spoke some decent english. It did not have bort number back then so i cant tell you when it was assembled.



    Rust is big problem with 29s, funny enough MiG21s had it alot less from what i am aware, ours were grounded even coz of that past decade before overhaul and Russians had even bigger issues with it: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/corrosion-issue-grounds-one-third-of-russian-air-force-mig-29-324017/

    You will excuse me but i dont have alot of confidence regarding these MiG29s rewamps, hopefully Ks built for Russia look better, but still i consider Rafale as more capable machine, putting price aside. Maybe MiG35 based deck variant could change things if it ever happens that is.

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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:29 am

    Just look at closeup picks of MiG-35's tested in India (revamped MiG-29M2 at the time) and you will see no rust.  Dents, pfft, maybe, dunno (hard to tell).  And many jets shown on ground display tend to be models, even older models (converts).  MiG-29K have to be better in terms of handling salty air for obvious reasons.  Turks can laugh all they want, the F-16's were no better, even earlier models.  Our F-18's (CF-188) are no better than those F-16's.

    Sokol plant got quite a bit decent over the years.  I think somewhere on here is the pics of the facility.
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:26 am

    Rafale is an inciredible machine, same as Mirages were back in time.

    Incredibly expensive... for the price of the aircraft you could easily start a joint venture with a relevant Russian company and upgrade any component you might suggest is inferior and still have lots of change.

    however here we are 40 years later and they are still flying with great combat results though the time.

    Great combat results... tell that to the Argentinians...

    And tell the Libyan people how they were saved from that tyrannt gaddafi by Rafales, and can now look forward to bright future.... Rolling Eyes

    And yes Rafale is overall better machine than MiG29K, i am very sorry but thats true. France always had great aviation industry not sure from where comes that sudden hate for Dassault.

    Always? Which French fighter from WWII is comparable to a Yak-3 or Mustang... Most military experts would struggle to name a French fighter from WWII.

    I am not talking about price here, Rafale is overpriced mainly due to fact it was soloely developed by France, they are trying to find ways to get their funds back, best way, selling them expencive. Considering fact US built F16 Block 60 is nearing its price tag i still call Rafale far better deal.

    A purchase of crap US aircraft at least gets you some leverage in the US congress in case you are invaded by a neighbour. Purchase of a french aircraft gets you what? BTW those Mirage F1 aircraft Libya had did very little...

    And i was talking about global advances in aeronautics including engines, electronics, radars.. everything. Only real drawback of Rafale is still somewhat lacking armaments range compared to counterparts, which as we all know can be easily changed on request.

    Hahahaha... secret code for if you want more weapons... develop them yourself.

    Well for now they indeed have commited themself only for 12. What happens after that we can only guess for now. He did not say Russia will order ONLY 12, just depends how you look at the sentence.

    I agree with Berkut here... the suggestion is that Russia will only buy 12.

    You will excuse me but i dont have alot of confidence regarding these MiG29s rewamps, hopefully Ks built for Russia look better, but still i consider Rafale as more capable machine,

    And how many Rafales have you seen close up?

    It is either gold plating or your rose coloured glasses perhaps...

    I don't really care about your confidence one way or another regarding MiGs, exterior rust is superficial and a natural result of exposure to the elements... the US and France don't hide their aircraft in Hangars all the time for fun you know.

    You have made the claim that the Rafale is a better aircraft than the MiG-35... please do the honours of describing the components and systems in the MiG-35 and a complete comparison with those components and systems in the Rafale. You must be familiar with both designs to make such a claim unless your claim is founded in ignorance.

    BTW how much of the electronics in the French aircraft is designed and made in France... the US uses backdoors to spy on allies as well as enemies and when discovered can be used against any user... not just the Soviets or Russians.

    Just look at closeup picks of MiG-35's tested in India (revamped MiG-29M2 at the time) and you will see no rust.

    Don't be silly Seph... he has already made up his mind... Rolling Eyes


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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  wilhelm on Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:53 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Great combat results... tell that to the Argentinians...

    BTW those Mirage F1 aircraft Libya had did very little...

    I don't have a dog in this fight, but I remember you over the years from other forums Gary, and I know you know better than that on the two points above.

    The Argentine Daggers ( and a few Mirage III's) flown and lost by the Argentine airforce during the Falklands were a victim of their mission profile above anything else. By the time they arrived over the Falklands after a long flight from the Argentine mainland, they basically had to immediately turn around again to get home, or otherwise run out of fuel. This is not conducive to air combat, or even positioning yourself favourably for a fight. Any other platform operating under such an operational profile, and alone to boot,would have an uphill struggle on its hands.
    Argentina's greatest mistake in that entire conflict was not lengthening the runway at Port Stanley to operate fast jet fighters more efficiently and effectively over the area of combat.

    How serviceable were the Libyan F-1's after years and years of sanctions? Could they even get more than a couple up in the air after being deprived of spare parts and deep maintenance by the manufacturer, and in the face of overwhelming foreign interference? As such, they were operating under a similar handicap as was Serbias MiG-29's a little later.

    I think Dassault created a gem in the Mirage III platform, which is what Militarov I believe is intimating...that the basic design was got spot on.... one that people thought was good enough to modify over the years so that in the end, it ended up as a pretty sophisticated fighter, with aerodynamic updates/tweaks, glass cockpit, modern digital multimode radar, data link, in-flight refuelling, internal ECM suite, helmet guided AAM, 60km BVRAAM...etc.... almost a quarter of a century ago already. Of course it has its weakpoints, just like any other platform.

    The above is not bashing any other platform, just a personal opinion/observation on those couple of points.
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:23 am

    The Argentine Daggers ( and a few Mirage III's) flown and lost by the Argentine airforce during the Falklands were a victim of their mission profile above anything else. By the time they arrived over the Falklands after a long flight from the Argentine mainland, they basically had to immediately turn around again to get home, or otherwise run out of fuel. This is not conducive to air combat, or even positioning yourself favourably for a fight. Any other platform operating under such an operational profile, and alone to boot,would have an uphill struggle on its hands.
    Argentina's greatest mistake in that entire conflict was not lengthening the runway at Port Stanley to operate fast jet fighters more efficiently and effectively over the area of combat.

    I agree with everything you just said, but the thing I was pointing out is that the contemporary of the Mirage F1 would be the MiG-23 which actually has BVR air to air missiles which would have fundamentally changed the entire situation.

    Its swing wings and ability to operate from short rough strips, and of course its BVR air to air capability would have made it a much better choice for the job at hand.

    They flew the aircraft they had with enormous courage and skill, but at the end of the day the actual difference in air to air combat was a better model Sidewinder carried by the British.

    the claim was that since WWII that French combat aircraft...

    however here we are 40 years later and they are still flying with great combat results though the time.

    So he is claiming the Libyan Mirages had great combat results against france and the US...

    Of course it has its weakpoints, just like any other platform.

    You mean the clean deltas design requirement for long runways?

    India was going to be spending 22 billion dollars to buy just 126 Rafales... they were going to invest 6 billion to develop their own variant of the PAK FA... come on... even if it was a superb aircraft it is crap at that ridiculous price...


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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  wilhelm on Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:40 am

    I agree with that...i was just nitpicking over the two points mentioned.

    That price for the Rafales is obscene. Madness.
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:10 am

    Rafale is an inciredible machine, same as Mirages were back in time.

    And yes Rafale is overall better machine than MiG29K, i am very sorry but thats true. France always had great aviation industry not sure from where comes that sudden hate for Dassault.

    And i was talking about global advances in aeronautics including engines, electronics, radars.. everything. Only real drawback of Rafale is still somewhat lacking armaments range compared to counterparts, which as we all know can be easily changed on request.

    You will excuse me but i dont have alot of confidence regarding these MiG29s rewamps, hopefully Ks built for Russia look better, but still i consider Rafale as more capable machine,

    NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.

    Why the hell is a triangular living fossil is more capable than MiG-29 ?

    Rafale, Mirage, EF-2000,... all have pathetic maneuverablility. Because when these things try to achieve high AoA, the vertical stabilizer will be blocked by the wing and hull, and will lost its function, and the plane will be instable.

    That means Rafale and other Europlanes can never achieve good AoA => pathetic maneuverability => huge disadvantage in air combat.

    Meanwhile MiG-29 and Su-27 can do corba i.e. AoA=90 degree.

    Rafale max speed is pathetic (M 1.8 ), even lower than Su-34.

    Rafale has a very small radar, small radar means decreased resolution and sensitivity. Rafale's radar can never compete with Zhuk, Bars or Irbis.

    Rafale has a ram inlet, similar level at MiG-19. Meanwhile MiG-21 already has conical inlet, and Su-27 and MiG-29 already have electronical controlled inlet door to control the air flow.

    And I am quite confident that nothing in the West can compete against Su-30/35's ECM.
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Berkut on Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:27 pm

    STFU about Rafale already, jesus.
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Militarov on Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Argentine Daggers ( and a few Mirage III's) flown and lost by the Argentine airforce during the Falklands were a victim of their mission profile above anything else. By the time they arrived over the Falklands after a long flight from the Argentine mainland, they basically had to immediately turn around again to get home, or otherwise run out of fuel. This is not conducive to air combat, or even positioning yourself favourably for a fight. Any other platform operating under such an operational profile, and alone to boot,would have an uphill struggle on its hands.
    Argentina's greatest mistake in that entire conflict was not lengthening the runway at Port Stanley to operate fast jet fighters more efficiently and effectively over the area of combat.

    I agree with everything you just said, but the thing I was pointing out is that the contemporary of the Mirage F1 would be the MiG-23 which actually has BVR air to air missiles which would have fundamentally changed the entire situation.

    Its swing wings and ability to operate from short rough strips, and of course its BVR air to air capability would have made it a much better choice for the job at hand.

    They flew the aircraft they had with enormous courage and skill, but at the end of the day the actual difference in air to air combat was a better model Sidewinder carried by the British.

    the claim was that since WWII that French combat aircraft...

    however here we are 40 years later and they are still flying with great combat results though the time.

    So he is claiming the Libyan Mirages had great combat results against france and the US...

    Of course it has its weakpoints, just like any other platform.

    You mean the clean deltas design requirement for long runways?

    India was going to be spending 22 billion dollars to buy just 126 Rafales... they were going to invest 6 billion to develop their own variant of the PAK FA... come on... even if it was a superb aircraft it is crap at that ridiculous price...

    If that is your logic, then Serbian and Iraqi MiG29s rly did well too... not... There was handful of them with no updates for like 20 years. Aganist US, UK, France, Italy...
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Militarov on Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:42 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Rafale is an inciredible machine, same as Mirages were back in time.

    And yes Rafale is overall better machine than MiG29K, i am very sorry but thats true. France always had great aviation industry not sure from where comes that sudden hate for Dassault.

    And i was talking about global advances in aeronautics including engines, electronics, radars.. everything. Only real drawback of Rafale is still somewhat lacking armaments range compared to counterparts, which as we all know can be easily changed on request.

    You will excuse me but i dont have alot of confidence regarding these MiG29s rewamps, hopefully Ks built for Russia look better, but still i consider Rafale as more capable machine,

    NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.

    Why the hell is a triangular living fossil is more capable than MiG-29 ?

    Rafale, Mirage, EF-2000,... all have pathetic maneuverablility. Because when these things try to achieve high AoA, the vertical stabilizer will be blocked by the wing and hull, and will lost its function, and the plane will be instable.

    That means Rafale and other Europlanes can never achieve good AoA => pathetic maneuverability => huge disadvantage in air combat.

    Meanwhile MiG-29 and Su-27 can do corba i.e. AoA=90 degree.

    Rafale max speed is pathetic (M 1.8   ), even lower than Su-34.

    Rafale has a very small radar, small radar means decreased resolution and sensitivity. Rafale's radar can never compete with Zhuk, Bars or Irbis.

    Rafale has a ram inlet, similar level at MiG-19. Meanwhile MiG-21 already has conical inlet, and Su-27 and MiG-29 already have electronical controlled inlet door to control the air flow.

    And I am quite confident that nothing in the West can compete against Su-30/35's ECM.

    Rafale, Mirage, EF-2000,... all have pathetic maneuverablility. - why? Coz they cant do Cobra? Coz Cobra is so gamechanging.

    Rafale's radar can never compete with Zhuk, Bars or Irbis. - No.

    And I am quite confident that nothing in the West can compete against Su-30/35's ECM. - Speculations.
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Militarov on Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Rafale is an inciredible machine, same as Mirages were back in time.

    Incredibly expensive... for the price of the aircraft you could easily start a joint venture with a relevant Russian company and upgrade any component you might suggest is inferior and still have lots of change.

    however here we are 40 years later and they are still flying with great combat results though the time.

    Great combat results... tell that to the Argentinians...

    And tell the Libyan people how they were saved from that tyrannt gaddafi by Rafales, and can now look forward to bright future....  Rolling Eyes

    And yes Rafale is overall better machine than MiG29K, i am very sorry but thats true. France always had great aviation industry not sure from where comes that sudden hate for Dassault.

    Always? Which French fighter from WWII is comparable to a Yak-3 or Mustang... Most military experts would struggle to name a French fighter from WWII.

    I am not talking about price here, Rafale is overpriced mainly due to fact it was soloely developed by France, they are trying to find ways to get their funds back, best way, selling them expencive. Considering fact US built F16 Block 60 is nearing its price tag i still call Rafale far better deal.

    A purchase of crap US aircraft at least gets you some leverage in the US congress in case you are invaded by a neighbour. Purchase of a french aircraft gets you what?  BTW those Mirage F1 aircraft Libya had did very little...

    And i was talking about global advances in aeronautics including engines, electronics, radars.. everything. Only real drawback of Rafale is still somewhat lacking armaments range compared to counterparts, which as we all know can be easily changed on request.

    Hahahaha... secret code for if you want more weapons... develop them yourself.

    Well for now they indeed have commited themself only for 12. What happens after that we can only guess for now. He did not say Russia will order ONLY 12, just depends how you look at the sentence.

    I agree with Berkut here... the suggestion is that Russia will only buy 12.

    You will excuse me but i dont have alot of confidence regarding these MiG29s rewamps, hopefully Ks built for Russia look better, but still i consider Rafale as more capable machine,

    And how many Rafales have you seen close up?

    It is either gold plating or your rose coloured glasses perhaps...

    I don't really care about your confidence one way or another regarding MiGs, exterior rust is superficial and a natural result of exposure to the elements... the US and France don't hide their aircraft in Hangars all the time for fun you know.

    You have made the claim that the Rafale is a  better aircraft than the MiG-35... please do the honours of describing the components and systems in the MiG-35 and a complete comparison with those components and systems in the Rafale. You must be familiar with both designs to make such a claim unless your claim is founded in ignorance.

    BTW how much of the electronics in the French aircraft is designed and made in France... the US uses backdoors to spy on allies as well as enemies and when discovered can be used against any user... not just the Soviets or Russians.

    Just look at closeup picks of MiG-35's tested in India (revamped MiG-29M2 at the time) and you will see no rust.

    Don't be silly Seph... he has already made up his mind...  Rolling Eyes

    You are aware that Yak-3 and Mustang are late war products...riight, France did not really exist post 1940? And that all nations entered WW2 with fighters less capable than German ones, except maybe brits that fielded Hurricane in numbers which was fairly decent. And yeah, Frenchies did make one really fine fighter at the dawn of WW2 Arsenal VG33 and bomber Amiot 354, then Breguet 693 which is by the way imo one of the best looking aircaft of the era. So France always has great industry, however WW2 caught them half way though military modernisation which they paid dearly.

    Havent seen Rafale up close i belive, but i have seen Mirage-2000, which was outside for most of its service time.

    France has some well know electronic companies, you know... those that Russia is bying licence from for avionics, helmets, pods... Sagem, STMicroélectronics, Thales Avionics, FCI Automotive, Asco Joucomatic, Alcatel Lucent, Auxitrol, Radiall, JTEKT-HPI, Cilas, HF Company, MSL Circuits, EPIC, Elta...
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:17 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Havent seen Rafale up close i belive, but i have seen Mirage-2000, which was outside for most of its service time.

    France has some well know electronic companies, you know... those that Russia is bying licence from for avionics, helmets, pods... Sagem, STMicroélectronics, Thales Avionics, FCI Automotive, Asco Joucomatic, Alcatel Lucent, Auxitrol, Radiall, JTEKT-HPI, Cilas, HF Company, MSL Circuits, EPIC, Elta...

    To me it discussion stops to be on arguments but feelings Smile Then le Rafale be un chasseur ohlala

    But as for electronic industry you´re wrong. Before USSR failed French had no electronics better or avionics better than Soviets. Did not build so many different planes or space rockets. Simple.

    Then when USSR fell apart in times of pillaging liberasts electronic industry failed. that´s why Russia was buying some hi tech licenses. Tell me pls what electronics is military sector Russia is still buying in France? I am curious.

    BTW can you name 2-3 types of microprocessors designed and manufactured in France? Because I cannot.

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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Militarov on Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:45 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Havent seen Rafale up close i belive, but i have seen Mirage-2000, which was outside for most of its service time.

    France has some well know electronic companies, you know... those that Russia is bying licence from for avionics, helmets, pods... Sagem, STMicroélectronics, Thales Avionics, FCI Automotive, Asco Joucomatic, Alcatel Lucent, Auxitrol, Radiall, JTEKT-HPI, Cilas, HF Company, MSL Circuits, EPIC, Elta...

    To me it discussion stops to be on arguments but feelings Smile Then le  Rafale be un chasseur ohlala

    But as for electronic industry you´re wrong. Before USSR failed French had no electronics better or avionics better than Soviets. Did not build so many different planes or space rockets. Simple.

    Then when USSR fell apart in times of pillaging liberasts electronic industry failed. that´s why Russia was buying some hi tech licenses. Tell me pls what electronics is military sector Russia is still buying in France? I am curious.

    BTW can you name 2-3 types of microprocessors designed and manufactured in France? Because I cannot.


    http://www.st.com/web/en/home.html is from what i am aware Europes biggest microcontroller and semiconductor producer. PLCs that we used on college had their hardware. Y

    ou are aware that Russia atm produces only 30% of electronics needed for their shipbuilding? There is little chance that chunk of missing equipment is not coming from France. Also Russia does not produce any CPUs either, they are trying to set production in Taiwan as there are no capabilities for that in Russia at least not atm.
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  George1 on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:08 am

    Status and prospects of the production program Dassault Rafale fighter

    According to French newsletter «TTU» in the material «Rafale: pour l'export et la Marine», January 28, 2016, Egypt received three fighter Dassault Rafale DM, as our blog has already reported. Abbreviation DM means «Dual Misr» (double, Egypt). This delivery number sent to Egypt fighter Rafale DM to six, they were taken from the order originally made by the French Air Force (as the aircraft Rafale B), which are now not get new fighters at best, until 2021. Since before Egypt's order will be executed (which should be delivered 18 more aircraft of new construction) and Qatar (24) with a production rate of 11 aircraft per year.

    However, in the current year will continue the delivery of Rafale-M fighter for the French Navy, which at the beginning of February 2016 got 45 fighters (five of which were finalized modifications F1 in option F3). Last Fighter (M45 serial number), the French fleet received, was in December 2015. For him this year, followed by planes M46 and M41, which has been returned to the manufacturer to remedy the defects revealed during the acceptance the General Directorate of arms (DGA) French Ministry of Defense. The last two deck aircraft of the fourth tranche - M47 and M48 will be transferred to the Navy by the end of 2020. This modernization will take five fighters modification F1 of the first tranche (M1 - M5).

    Thus, France's naval aviation in 2018 will be armed with 42 Rafale-M, not 46, as four were lost in accidents. 2016 will be critical for the French Navy, as will be debited the last 16 fighter-bombers Super-Etendard Modernisés of 17th aircraft fleet (17F), which will be replaced by the Rafale, which over the next 30 years will be the only type of fighter aircraft of the French Navy.
    This event also coincides with the dry docking in DCNS in Toulon of nuclear aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, which will be repaired and a half years - from September 2016 on February 2018. It is actually about average repair, as the ship is to be decommissioned in 2041, moreover, the ship will pass alterations to be able to apply the new Rafale fighter aircraft modifications.

    The resource recalls that the last tranche of the fifth fighter Rafale M (serial number M49 - M58) will join the fleet of new cars 11F, 12F and 17F, and "marine component" Training Squadron ETR 2/92 "Aquitaine" at the air base 113 in Saint-Dizier, wherein the number of planes are currently considered to be insufficient. This part on retraining on Rafale fighters, the total for the Air Force and Navy, should receive additional "Sparky", and have from five to six the M Rafale fighter jets on a regular basis for the training of naval aviation pilots.

    Without the order of the fifth tranche of the Ministry of Defence put the number of fighters Rafale M number of Rafale M fighter sea does not exceed 48. At segodyashny assembly shops Dassault factory in Mérignac left 146 machines Rafale (modifications of C, B and M), including the first six Egyptian aircraft. Last Aircraft, adopted the Ministry of Defence, steel S147 (third F3R modification of aircraft in the series, equipped with radars with AFAR, opto-electronic system Thales / Sagem OSF-IT discovery and system start-up detection and approximation of DDM NG missile) and Rafale M45 in the same configuration .

    Of the 56 aircraft produced double 50 put the Air Force, of which remains only 49 (one lost in an accident in 2007). The remaining 18 Egyptian aircraft to be delivered to the customer during 2016-2017. It is about 10 "SPARK» Rafale DM and eight single Rafale EM, and then, in 2018 Qatar will begin deliveries of fighters. They will continue as expected until mid-2020.

    Today, scaling up production Rafale is not provided. As noted Dassault's leadership, some steps in this direction can be made in case of signing a contract with India for the supply of 36 vehicles. The second production line will be set up in Merignac, where Dasaault has already acquired the necessary land for the placement of new buildings, which are adjacent to Bordeaux airport.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1727958.html


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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Militarov on Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:22 pm





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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  George1 on Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:09 am

    According to French Web resource www.defens-aero.com, July 1, 2016 at the head office of the company Dassault Aviation in Merignac near Bordeaux began flight tests of the first built for the Egyptian Air Force of single-seat fighter Dassault Rafale EM (serial number EM01). The plane has not yet bear coloring and markings of Egyptian Air Force.







    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1996582.html


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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:26 pm

    The portfolio of orders for fighter aircraft Dassault Rafale has exceeded 100 units in 2016

    According to the French newspaper «Les Echos» in the article "110 Rafale en commande à fin 2016", although Dassault Aviation company CFOs will publish its results, only 27 of February, recently became aware of the portfolio on the basis of the company's orders in 2016.

    For example, received 36 orders for fighter aircraft Rafale, «thanks to the signing and entry into force of the contract with India," says Dassault. That is, for 12 aircraft less than in 2015, when Egypt and Qatar opted for the French fighter. However, as noted in the company, "the new order again shows the quality of the Rafale».

    Six to the French military, and three - to the Egyptian Air Force, nine fighters Rafale were delivered to customers in 2016. French Navy received two fighter Rafale M after conversion option in F3.

    As of December 31, 2016 order portfolio consisted of 100 Rafale, of which 32 for the French Ministry of Defense, and 78 for export customers, compared with 83 Rafale a year earlier.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2365097.html


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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  George1 on Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:02 pm

    Of the entire fleet of the French Rafale fighter aircraft are serviceable only 51% of the aircraft

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2471854.html


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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Militarov on Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:01 pm

    George1 wrote:Of the entire fleet of the French Rafale fighter aircraft are serviceable only 51% of the aircraft

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2471854.html

    We already determined here few months ago that criteria they use to calculate availability is literally insane. If we used same "6h to be launched into combat" availability criteria for other airforces, we would have something like 20% rate for majority of countries.
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  Isos on Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:11 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:Of the entire fleet of the French Rafale fighter aircraft are serviceable only 51% of the aircraft

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2471854.html

    We already determined here few months ago that criteria they use to calculate availability is literally insane. If we used same "6h to be launched into combat" availability criteria for other airforces, we would have something like 20% rate for majority of countries.

    The first hours of a war are the most important. Israeli won the 6 days war with a single Attack on Egypt in about 2-3 hours.
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    Re: Dassault Rafale Thread

    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:11 am

    Fighter Dassault Rafale has high chances in Malaysia

    According to the Yann Cochennec publication "Le Dassault Rafale seul en lice en Malaisie" in the magazine "Air & Cosmos", the Dassault Rafale fighter remained the only contender for the victory in the Malaysian Air Force tender for the purchase of new fighters. This was reported by French government spokesman Stefan Le Foll during the announcement of the results of the last meeting of the Council of Ministers of France. "Negotiations are over. I believe that it remains to reach an agreement with Dassault on the Rafale fighter. "

    Le Voll also added that "only bilateral negotiations remained, other suppliers were not left out." During the state visit of French President Frans Hollande to Malaysia, Prime Minister Najib Razak noted that he had discussed the possibility of acquiring Rafale fighters, while noting that a final decision has not yet been taken.

    The Prime Minister of Malaysia also added that "we are not yet ready to take a decision, but we took into account the success of the aircraft in other countries." The Malaysian Air Force expressed its intention to acquire 18 combat aircraft. The value of the contract can reach $ 2 billion.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2529023.html


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