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    Rafale wins India's MMRCA

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    ahmedfire
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    Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:14 pm

    welcome

    New Delhi:  The Dassault Rafale fighter jet, manufactured by the French company Dassault Aviation, has won India's mammoth contract worth $10.4 billion, say sources. The Indian Air Force plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years.

    The process to determine the L1 (lowest bidder) has been completed, and sources indicate that the final contract is expected to be signed in the next financial year. The first 18 aircraft will be bought off the shelf. The rest 108 will be built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. through technology transfers.

    Sources say Defense ministry experts are still fine-tuning pricing details, including the cost of on-board weaponry and royalties for producing the aircraft in India.

    There were six contenders for the world's biggest defence deal which included the Russian MiG- 35,Lockheed Martin's F-16 Falcon, Boeing's F-18 Hornet, the Swedish Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale. (In Pics: Aircraft that competed for the defence deal)

    Of these, the European EADS Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale were in the final race for the global tender for a medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). The Eurofighter bid was backed by four partner nations including Germany, Spain, Italy and the United Kingdom while the Dassault Rafale was backed by the French Government.

    On November 4 last year, Defence ministry had opened the commercial bid of the two firms left in the race and since then has been busy in determining the lowest bidder. The rest were rejected as they didn't meet the technical qualifications.

    The deal is the first foreign deal for Dassault's fighter jets. The French have for years been trying to get an export deal. Just last month, French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet warned the Rafale program could be stopped if foreign buyers don't materialize.

    Longuet maintained that the Rafale is an "excellent plane" but acknowledged it is handicapped by its price, which is higher than its U.S. rival.

    The Rafale, in service for the French Air Force since 2006, has been flying air support roles in Afghanistan since 2007, and was a big part of the NATO air campaign against Moammar Gaddafi's forces in Libya in 2011.


    Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/dassault-rafale-wins-for-usd-10-4-billion-indian-air-force-jet-fighter-deal-sources-171975?pfrom=home-lateststories&cp

    TR1
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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:14 pm

    Finally. They waited so long to seal the MMRCA I think it is pointless now. I would have gone for more Su-30s and Tejas instead of yet another platform.
    Also, by the time the Rafale comes into service, the Super 30, Tejasmk2 will be around, not to mention PAK-FA on the horizon.

    Good for Dassault, finally a badly needed export.


    Vladimir79
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    Rafale wins $20 billion India MMRCA

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:32 pm


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:54 pm


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:57 pm

    Slightly offtopic but still I was wondering whats the Russian calculation

    selling 300 PAK-FA for about 30 bin and French 126 Rafale for 20 bin?

    And besides at what stage did MMRCA become 20 bin contest?

    btw congrats to the French, I love Rafale and glad to see it win first

    and major deal.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Corrosion on Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:29 pm

    The contract is yet to be signed. Many sources are also indicating 10 billion and 15 billion figures. Only once the contract is signed we will find out the correct figure. There will be intense price negotiations for next few months. Not to mention this deal has 50% offset requirement, which Dasault will need to invest in India.

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:52 pm

    MMRCA is going to balloon to 200 aircaft. It will easily blow past $20 billion... probably $30 billion.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:25 pm

    French deals being horribly overpriced is nothing new. But if it gets close to PAK-FA price per unit...wow. Awfull.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:00 am

    Didn't India originally want to licence produce Mirage 2000s and the French refused and demanded they buy Rafales to which the Indians refused?

    The Rafale is a very nice looking aircraft and should perform very well... I was expecting it to get the nod.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Corrosion on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:04 am

    TR1 wrote:French deals being horribly overpriced is nothing new. But if it gets close to PAK-FA price per unit...wow. Awfull.
    We can say French deals are atleast cheaper than their European counterparts from this tender.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Corrosion on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:22 am

    GarryB wrote:Didn't India originally want to licence produce Mirage 2000s and the French refused and demanded they buy Rafales to which the Indians refused?
    But now IAF knows how good it is compared to other fighters. There is also less chance of a corruption and/or corruption allegation and you can get a better deal in terms of money other than when you go for single vendor purchase. I agree there are certain drawbacks as well like wastage of time. But fighter jets operate for 40 or so years and it is overall good that you know what you are buying and what else is available. Normally Indian defence deals have a requirement of 30% offset which OEM has to invest in India. But because it was a tender and a big one, so it was bumped up to 50%.

    From a strategic point of view, I am happy that Rafale is chosen instead of EF, because OEM is a single country unlike Eurofighter GmbH and with historically good relations with India.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:01 pm

    Lets be honest though... any of the fighters in the competition could have fulfilled the role, though for quite a range of costs and time frames.

    To the benefit of the Russian Air Force the Indian tender certainly pushed the development of the Mig-35 and it could perhaps be the first Russian Air Force fighter with an AESA radar (as opposed to the Mig-31 which was the worlds first with a PESA almost 30 years ago...), which with an RVV-BD in the domestic Russian version with a flight range of 280km should be a very potent weapon against non-stealth aircraft.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:59 pm

    I don't think MoD made a serious effort to try and sell MiG-35. They knew it wasn't close to ready and they don't care to fund it.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:14 am

    They still have funding for it in the GVP2020.

    I think the whole MRCA program has been a tremendous waste of time and money and that they should have simply said right at the start that they want Rafales to replace the Mirage 2000s and upgrades of their Mig-29s with options to eventually trade them for new Mig-35s when it is ready and when India is ready for them...

    Still I understand they have a process which has to be followed so they can be seen to be fair and unbiased.

    Sad really, as the decision to remove the Mig-35 was based on the fact that they think they already import too much stuff from Russia, so it was actually biased anyway.

    In most other military forces the whole point of diversification is to ensure uninterrupted supply. The French and the Russians are reliable partners, though the former are expensive and the later have support issues, but including sensible support agreements into purchasing agreements would go a long way to solving those issues.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Corrosion on Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:Sad really, as the decision to remove the Mig-35 was based on the fact that they think they already import too much stuff from Russia, so it was actually biased anyway.
    We dont know how much it mattered in elimination of mig35 from MMRCA. The fact is Mig35 is nowhere near complete. I am not saying Rafale as india wants it is fully complete. its just combination of various aspects that goes against mig35 in MMRCA. Mig35 will be able to do most missions. Its just that if we are to fight a battle over himalayas/tibet with China, it is best to go with best machines that you can get as it is fighter planes, missiles and long range artillery only that count in this region. best in terms of range, payload, electronic warfare. i think we need a lots and lots of artillery and cheap cruise missiles as well and they will come with time hopefully. Actually something like a F35 is ideally suited for india in this region only if it can carry some more ammo internally and is bit more agile. India is getting Russian origin MKI and FGFA and there is nothing it is going to get in terms of tech from mig35 that it cant get from those other two programs plus Mig29UPG. How is mig35 better than an MKI, even the current configuration. let alone the super 30 upgrade. what I am trying to say is mig35 makes less sense than other fighters.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Corrosion on Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:01 pm

    As far as russian indian relations go although mig was not chosen but atleast a fighter from a somewhat neutral country was chosen which is generally not anti russian . Wink

    Anyway this drama is long from finished as it will still take few months to sing the contract. during this time Britain and Germany will definitely apply all the pressures they can. Just reading this page: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2095178/Cameron-opens-Frances-Asda-option-jet-vows-to-persuade-India-order-British-warplane.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:56 am

    Cameron-opens-Frances-Asda-option-jet-vows-to-persuade-India-order-British-warplane.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

    Just that link makes me laugh.

    The west will claim Putin is some sort of mafia don that controls everything from elections to the courts in Russia, but when things don't go their way in Russian courts those same western governments demand Putin intervenes and makes the courts change their decision...

    Now Cameron wants India to ignore the results of its MMRCA competition that it has used to select the plane that best suits them and just pick the British entry in the competition.

    For 150 odd million per plane India probably should have looked more seriously at the F-35, but the problem would be you can use it against the Chinese, but not Pakistan.... and they will be $200 million a plane with RCS figures not much different from the Eurocanards... in other words LO rather than actually stealth.

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    MMRCA Deal

    Post  ricky123 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:54 pm

    it looks like the MMRCA deal is gonna go thru with RAfeal itself , we have reports that the deal will be signed this fiscal yr

    it is intresting that the german and russian people had said the deal had failed , ithink French has made a last minute jump to the save the deal ....

    if french dont get this deal ,i think rafeal will die . so it is do or die for the french , i saw a video of su 35 and i think that would have been a perfect choice ....but at this time i just hope that the indian gov just inks the deal so we dont have to end with no aircraft at all

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:23 pm

    ricky123 wrote:it looks like the MMRCA deal is gonna go thru with RAfeal itself , we have reports that the deal will be signed this fiscal yr

    it is intresting that the german and russian people had said the deal had failed , ithink French has made a last minute jump to the save the deal ....

    if french dont get this deal ,i think rafeal will die . so it is do or die for the french , i saw a video of su 35 and i think that would have been a perfect choice ....but at this time i just hope that the indian gov just inks the deal so we dont have to end with no aircraft at all

    Aside from the committee member who didn't like the price calculations, there never was any fear of failure. The inquiry is over, Rafale is approved and negotiations commence. The delay is the fault of HAL who did not submit the work agreement in the time they were ordered to. They should have submitted it by now. If this deal does not go through, Rafale is dead. When it does, Rafale will likely be more successful than Eurofighter.


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  TR1 on Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:47 pm

    In terms of export numbers, defiantly, but in terms of export client numbers + total production, Eurofighter is still far ahead of Rafale.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:03 am

    In terms of export numbers, defiantly, but in terms of export client numbers + total production, Eurofighter is still far ahead of Rafale.

    Not a totally fair comparison because many of the customers of the Typhoon are part of the consortium that designed it.

    I look forward to all the posters who complained about the price increase for the Gorshkov ex mod-Kiev class carrier, in the increase here of 10 billion US dollars over the agreed contract price.

    The real question is why did they enter the Rafale in the competition in the first place when the budget was clearly stated as being 10 billion.


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:02 am

    And even the countries that form the Typhoon consortium finds it difficult to procure the Typhoon because of the extremely high procurement cost . A fact highlighted by the UK Audit Report of 2010.

    Regarding the Admiral Groshkov saga I found this out from a journalist :

    1) India & Russia knew from the very beginning that the aircraft carrier's refurbishment cannot be a fixed-price affair, since the real extent of refurbishment, repair & overhaul reqd will be evident ONLY AFTER the warship’s superstructure is ripped open. Consequently, both countries had catered for the prospect of price escalation for the amount of work to be undertaken.

    2) The issue of delayed delivery of Admiral Groshkov had nothing to do with India since it is attributable to the problems faced by Russia at a time when its shipbuilding industries were in a process of corporate consolidation. Money was never a problem for Russia since from 2005 onwards Russia stopped being dependent on weapons exports as its main source for forex revenues.

    3) The actual price escalation for refurbishing & refitting the Admiral Groshkov is ONE-THIRD of that of the US$800 million that India agreed to pay on March 12, 2010. The balance two-thirds of this amount was payment to Rosoboronexport State Corp for transferring to India all documentation related to the construction of the projected three units of the S-5 family of 20,000-tonne SSBNs, which was agreed upon as far back as January 20, 2004. For obvious reasons, the S-5 deal had to be ‘masked’ via a disinformation/misdirection exercise at that time, since any financial transaction involving forex (like US$ or Euros) leaves behind a paper trail & can therefore be easily traced. In case of the S-1/2/3/4 SSBN deals, this paper trail was absent because the payments were all made by India to Russia by adjusting the Russian debt owed to India as a consequence of the Rupee-Rouble trade deal during the Cold War era.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  TR1 on Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:23 am

    From what I recall, a reason in slip was Sevmash grossly mis-estimated the amount of cabling and other interior work that needed to be done. If this was honest mistake, desire to get contract despite knowledge it would take longer, or green and corruption along the way, I cannot say but likely a bit of each. Russian gov apparently was not happy when this was discovered, and some of the higher ups @ Sevmash were canned.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:03 am

    The thing that I find amusing is that so many people are so quick to accuse the Russians of corruption... the real corruption would have been to paint over the old wires and pocket the money and hand over a ship that would be an electrical and plumbing nightmare for its entire operational life.

    Instead they did the right thing and ripped out all the old rubbish and replaced it all with new stuff... I couldn't imagine going into a business now that hadn't been upgraded since the 1980s and trying to install a computer network and all new computers and printers etc using the existing wiring. I mean obviously the power cabling hasn't changed much but you would be putting double plugs and plug boards everywhere and pretty soon overloading the system, and that is not even taking into account data speed...


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  ricky123 on Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:12 am

    GArry ur right . russians dint know from the start that they will have to put so many new parts in until they ripped everything apart , but the negotiations with indians on the price took too long ...which soured the deal ...

    can any1 tell me the update on it ..i mean has the aircraft carrier fully operational and handed over to india yet or not ?

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