Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

RTN wrote:

Isos wrote:And you are quite wrong about the kilo being exported. The first improved kilos were made for export. It's just after seeing how good they were that russia ordereds some. First to order them was China back in the 90s and it was the project 636. Then Algeria and Vietnam ordered some too.

Russia ordered its own just in the 2010s. And yes it was improved even more called project 636.3. But the export version being made first it wasn't a downgraded version but an improved version of old kilo.

Look maybe the Kilo was a good conventional sub as was the German Type 214. But the thing with conventional submarines is that they are way past their use by date. Nuclear submarines and Extra Large UUVs (XLUUVs) are the future.

We are already developing XLUUVs like the ORCA that can be loaded on a heavy lift aircraft and can be dropped thousands of miles away within an hour or two.

https://www.naval-technology.com/features/boeing-orca-xluuv-unmanned-submarine/

These XLUUVs will now be armed with a few torpedoes maybe even a few anti ship missiles.

Can you even imagine this kind of flexibility.

When the Nautilus was launched in back in 1954 US Naval planners concluded that the conventional submarine was dead and gone but the reality elsewhere was quite the opposite. Both the Germans and Soviets in particular build many classes of conventional subs and had great export success. Conventional subs are particularly useful in shallow waters - not so with the larger nuclear subs. The US actually excluded themselves from a very lucrative market by not building conventional subs.

New developments in the Japanese Taigei class submarines shows that conventional subs are definitely here to stay and they pose a very serious threat to nuclear powered subs. I am sure the Russians are already developing subs with lithium-ion battery propulsion.

The XLUUV is an impressive machine but in terms of flexibility nothing compares to the Belgorod in my opinion.

People always forget to take geography into account

New air dropable XLUUV is sounds great but why would someone bother with dropping anything out of cargo aircraft when the target zone is just couple of hundred miles (or less) away from your coastline like in case of Russia?

Also you can never fully replace conventional sub with a drone because of same old problem as with UAVs: if nobody is there to babysit the robots the robots may screw the pooch and start the war by accident and this is even bigger problem with communicating underwater

Conventional subs are dirt cheap and Kilo can stay submerged for two weeks which is more than enough for any non-nuclear boat to do whatever it needs to do

And finally Kilo does already have a replacement in production, they are sticking around longer than average simply for being crazy cheap and capable and are built faster than OPVs

If you have something good ride it as long as you can, basic logic

Big_Gazza wrote:Muricanz are disparaging of conventional subs simply because they don't have any.  The US sub fleet is a power projection asset designed for aggression and needs to be able to cross the Atlantic and Pacific oceans before they can patrol along other nations SLOCs and coastlines, so they have no choice but to go for an all-nuclear force. Defence-minded nations looking to defend their littoral sea-spaces have different needs, and SSKs give them capabilities at an affordable cost (plus gives them parity with their neighbours).

Expensive is the operative word for the shipyards in America. It's all about the $$$ gravy train.

These XLUUVs will now be armed with a few torpedoes maybe even a few anti ship missiles.

Can you even imagine this kind of flexibility.

WOW... carrying a few torpedoes and a few anti ship missiles... that is amazing... except part of the job of a SSK is patrol... looking around the place for things that should not be there... these UUVs can't do that from an aircraft, so you need ships or other subs in the water looking for things and monitoring so you can locate the things you need to fly these UUVs out to deal with... but that sounds a bit stupid really when a few good subs would do a better job for longer... and be much better armed and equipped.

A SSK is an excellent spy platform that can go all sorts of places and watch and record and bring back useful information....

New developments in the Japanese Taigei class submarines shows that conventional subs are definitely here to stay and they pose a very serious threat to nuclear powered subs. I am sure the Russians are already developing subs with lithium-ion battery propulsion.

There are new battery technologies to explore and fund... that is the key for the future and some sort of AIP that can recharge the batteries while remaining submerged...

Defence-minded nations looking to defend their littoral sea-spaces have different needs, and SSKs give them capabilities at an affordable cost (plus gives them parity with their neighbours).

Very true, but it has been a real kick in the balls for the nuclear only USN to realise conventional subs are much quieter than other types and can sneak up on their best vessels and therefore likely sink them... bit of a shock to the system really...

Expensive is the operative word for the shipyards in America. It's all about the $$$ gravy train.

Private Companies in the US know they can charge what they like without question and piss away the tax payers hard earned cash all they want because there is no accountability and no respect when it comes to defence.

Perhaps a bit of privatisation is the solution... or some major prosecutions to transfer some of the enormous wealth that has gone to many billionaire owners of MIC companies back to the government coffers so it can be used properly.

Any government official caught taking a bribe and any civilian caught offering a bribe should lead to public execution for treason perhaps?

GarryB wrote:

Very true, but it has been a real kick in the balls for the nuclear only USN to realise conventional subs are much quieter than other types and can sneak up on their best vessels and therefore likely sink them... bit of a shock to the system really...

The US leased/tested a Gotland class sub some years ago and it proved capable to sink it's carriers without being detected. It was also tested against the French Rubis class subs and the Spanish fleet. The Gotland won every engagement.

[/quote]Any government official caught taking a bribe and any civilian caught offering a bribe should lead to public execution for treason perhaps?[/quote]

That would prove VERY problematic in my country - it would be equal to genocide and very few left to govern

Admiralty shipyards complete factory sea trials of the Magadan submarine. 

Admiralty Shipyards JSC (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) has completed factory sea trials of the large diesel-electric submarine of Project 636.3 "Magadan".

The marine part of the factory sea trials was held in the Baltic Fleet's training grounds in two stages. In the near ones, the tasks of signage and heeling were performed, noise level measurements were made, and the ship's magnetic fields were measured. The submarine has passed high-speed, maneuverable and deep-sea tests in remote ranges. The company's specialists checked the hydroacoustic complex, radar and communication complexes, power plant and life support systems of the submarine.

Magadan successfully completed its planned dives, including deep-sea ones. All systems and mechanisms of the ship were operating normally, in accordance with the declared tactical and technical characteristics.

The submarine returned to the enterprise on the eve of the Navy Day on July 16, after which the coastal part of the tests began, which included signing the necessary documentation and closing the factory navigation certificates.

Source: 

RTN wrote:

Isos wrote:And you are quite wrong about the kilo being exported. The first improved kilos were made for export. It's just after seeing how good they were that russia ordereds some. First to order them was China back in the 90s and it was the project 636. Then Algeria and Vietnam ordered some too.

Russia ordered its own just in the 2010s. And yes it was improved even more called project 636.3. But the export version being made first it wasn't a downgraded version but an improved version of old kilo.

Look maybe the Kilo was a good conventional sub as was the German Type 214. But the thing with conventional submarines is that they are way past their use by date. Nuclear submarines and Extra Large UUVs (XLUUVs) are the future.

We are already developing XLUUVs like the ORCA that can be loaded on a heavy lift aircraft and can be dropped thousands of miles away within an hour or two.

https://www.naval-technology.com/features/boeing-orca-xluuv-unmanned-submarine/

These XLUUVs will now be armed with a few torpedoes maybe even a few anti ship missiles.

Can you even imagine this kind of flexibility.

Wrong IMO.

As deepwater subs yes, Conventionals are bad but are quieter than Nuclear Subs so in home waters they do pose a significant threat.

Orca XLUUV is a good project but it's still being developed so how it will turn out remains to be see.

Here is a very good article debating nuclear-versus conventional submarines for Australian needs.

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/nuclear-versus-diesel-electric-case-conventional-submarines-ran/

Basically nothing beats a SSK in shallow/littoral waters and are extremely hard to detect in this scenario. Most SSN's are way to big to operate effectively in these waters and are in fact exposing themselves to detection - not just by presenting a huge echo but their nuclear reactors can easily be detected by infra red scanners.

SSK's are tasked with intelligence-gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance. They also protect shipping lanes, choke points and harbours. These tasks can be quite difficult for SSN's to perform.

On the other hand SSN's excel in the open seas and this is the area where SSK's can't compete with there faster sisters, but to argue that SSK's are crap and obsolete is just stupid.

RTN wrote:

Isos wrote:Sell it to a poor country like Venezuela or Argentina (that would piss off UK) for low price.

In any case, Russian export models are among the worst in the world, probably even worse than China's. Western governments do not export top of the line models. Diminished versions of local models are exported. Even then Western export models of military hardware are in orders of magnitude better than Russian export models.

WTF ? Like what ? 

Chinese Yuan 39's are kilo copies with copied French sonar and copied German engines. They are the same length with the same crew. Do they even export them ? N.korea doesn't count.(they exported the first 2 to Bangladesh in 2013) Russia started building Kilos in 1980. Yet you think some Chinese reheat is going to be better than Russia's who have mastered the process over 40 years. Give me a break.

This sounds like the same bullshit that the J-16 is better than Russian Flankers and all that nonsense. The Chinese subs are Russian subs. Just leave it at that.

Here's an article 


https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20131206.aspx

[size=43]The Chinese AIP has less power and reliability and does not appear to be nearly as capable as Russian or Western models.[/size]


[size=43][size=43]The Songs look a lot like the Russian Kilo class and that was apparently no accident. The 39s and 41s are both 1,800 ton boats with crews of 60 sailors and six torpedo tubes. This is very similar to the Kilos (which are a bit larger). China began ordering Russian Kilo class subs, then one of the latest diesel-electric designs available, in the late 1990s. The first two Type 41s appeared to be a copy of the early model Kilo (the model 877), while the second pair of Type 41s appeared to copy the late Kilos (model 636). The latest Yuans still appear like Kilos but may be part of an evolution into a sub that is similar to the Russian successor to the Kilo, the Lada. [/size]
[/size]


[size=43]Might as well finish the article. It sounds like China has a long ways to go sub wise.[/size]


[size=30]China currently has 13 Song class, 12 Kilo class, 7 Yuan class, and 18 Ming (improved Russian Romeo) class boats. There are only 4 Shang class and 3 Han class SSNs, as the Chinese are still having a lot of problems with nuclear power in subs. Despite that, the Hans are going to sea, even though they are noisy and easily detected by Western sensors. Five Hans were built (between 1974 and 1991) but 2 have already been retired. There are 4 newer Shang class SSNs in service, but these are still pretty noisy. The Song/Yuan class subs are meant to replace the elderly Mings. China is in the process of buying some even more advanced diesel-electric submarine technology from Russia for a new class of boats.[/size]

Latest diesel-electric sub built for Russian Pacific Fleet enters state trials

Project 636.3 submarines are 74 meters long and displace more than 3,900 tonnes

ST. PETERSBURG, August 16. /TASS/. The Admiralty Shipyard (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) has launched the state trials of the Project 636.3 third diesel-electric submarine built for Russia’s Pacific Fleet, the Shipyard’s press office announced on Monday.

"The Admiralty Shipyard has launched the state trials of the Project 636 large diesel-electric submarine Magadan. The third submarine of the series built for the Pacific Fleet entered state trials on August 16. During the week, the Shipyard’s specialists will check the operation of all the shipborne systems, mechanisms and equipment, including sonars and navigation complexes," the press office said in a statement.

The submarine will also carry out deep diving to assess the vessel’s control at various operational depths. After completing the state program of trials, the submarine Magadan will return to the Shipyard for its inspection and finishing, the statement says.

The Admiralty Shipyard is building a series of six Project 636.3 diesel-electric submarines for the Russian Pacific Fleet. The Project 636.3 lead submarine Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky was delivered to the Russian Navy in December 2019. The second submarine Volkhov was floated out in December 2019 and is now undergoing shipbuilders’ sea trials. The third submarine of this series, the Magadan, was laid down on November 1, 2019 and is set to be delivered to the Navy in November 2021.

Project 636.3 submarines (NATO reporting name: Improved Kilo-II) are 74 meters long and displace more than 3,900 tonnes. Due to its strong hull, the submarine has an operational depth of 240 meters and can dive to a maximum depth of 300 meters. Submarines of this Project have an operational range of up to 7,500 miles. They are armed with Kalibr-PL cruise missiles that are launched from torpedo tubes from the sub’s submerged position.

Shipbuilders to deliver submarine Magadan to Russian Navy by Nov 10

The Project 636.3 third diesel-electric submarine Magadan built for Russia’s Pacific Fleet will be handed over to the Russian Navy by November 10, the Admiralty Shipyard’s press office said.

"The Magadan, the third submarine of the series for the Pacific Fleet was floated out on March 26 this year and is highly ready (91%). The vessel was laid down on November 1, 2019 and will be delivered to the Russian Navy by November 10," the statement says.

The Admiralty Shipyard in St. Petersburg in northwestern Russia earlier built series of Project 636 and Project 636M submarines for the Chinese Navy, a series of six Project 636.3 submarines for the Russian Black Sea Fleet, six Project 636.1 submarines for the Vietnamese Navy and four Project 636.1 submarines for the Algerian Navy. The Russian submarines carry Kalibr-PL cruise missiles while the underwater cruisers built for foreign customers carry Club-S missile systems.

https://tass.com/defense/1326589

New developments in the Japanese Taigei class submarines shows that conventional subs are definitely here to stay and they pose a very serious threat to nuclear powered subs. I am sure the Russians are already developing subs with lithium-ion battery propulsion.

Funny you ask that because it was not that long ago that some members were demanding to know where Russias AIP powered SSKs were and that they were behind absolutely everyone because they didn't have an AIP powered sub and why are they so behind.

Japan had AIP powered subs and are not happy with them because they don't generate much power so you might be able to stay submerged for two or three weeks but you can't sail around because it does not produce a lot of power so you end up creeping around charging your batteries... when they are charged you can keep running the AIPs and use the batteries for some speed, but when the batteries get low it is back to creeping around and charging the batteries again.

The Russians said this when they tested their subs too and their AIPs are rather more powerful than hydrogen fuel cells which is what most western companies use, but they suggest that for all the weight and complication of the current AIPs that it actually makes more sense to replace them Li ion batteries instead and get a rather better boost in performance.

Sounds like they are working on new battery types that promise even better performance which would be even better.

The issue with sub design is that new technologies don't work perfectly first time and a lot don't even work at all... sometimes it takes time and investment to make a good idea actually work in practise.

https://rg.ru/2021/08/17/podlodki-petropavlovsk-kamchatskij-i-volhov-otpraviatsia-na-tihij-okean.html

Submarines "Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky" and "Volkhov" will go to the Pacific Ocean

The newest diesel-electric submarines of project 636.3 Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and Volkhov are ready to be sent to the Pacific Fleet to their permanent base. They were built and launched at the Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg, tested in the Baltic and in the northern seas. Now is the time to serve Russia in the Far East.

"The inter-fleet transfer of submarines from the Baltic to the Pacific Fleet will begin in the coming days. Their route to the permanent base will pass through the Mediterranean Sea and the Suez Canal," a source in the country's military-industrial complex told TASS. Coincidentally, a rocket corvette "Gremyashchiy", also built at the "Admiralty Shipyards", is now going to the Pacific Ocean.
However, the word "coincided" is hardly appropriate here: in the Navy, all such transitions are carefully planned and prepared. And, of course, it is no coincidence that the submarines and corvette are armed with Kalibr cruise missiles.

The speed those boats are built and its price is unbelievable.
We are talking about 2 boats per year for the last decade.

Well to be fair... in a way the west predicted that because its western name of Kilo means thousands.

Thanks to my interest in Soviet and Russian systems I never had to learn the Phonetic alphabet because of their naming of Soviet and Russian submarines with those labels.

Ironically now they have run out of letters in the english alphabet so there are plenty now that don't conform... Typhoon, Akula, Yasen, Borei...

But Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India, Juliet, Kilo, Lima, Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec, Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform, Victor, Whiskey, X-ray, Yankee, and Zulu...

Ironically they got the Typhoon and Akula wrong... the Typhoon class are the Akula class SSBN, and the Akula SSN are the Pike class, but now we have Russian names for subs... which is a good thing.

New submarine "Magadan" entered state tests. 

Admiralty Shipyards (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) has begun state testing of the third diesel-electric submarine of Project 636.3 for the Pacific Fleet (Pacific Fleet). This was announced on Monday by the press service of the enterprise.

"Admiralty Shipyards has started state testing of a large diesel-electric submarine of Project 636 Magadan. The third submarine of the series for the Pacific Fleet entered state tests on August 16. During the week, the company's specialists will have to check the operation of all ship's devices, mechanisms and equipment, including hydroacoustic and navigation systems" – the report says.

The submarine will also perform deep-sea dives, and assess the ship's controllability at different sea depths. After working out the test program, Magadan will return to the enterprise, where it will undergo an audit and finishing.

Source: 

About as likely as the US dropping its regime change vendetta against the world...

https://www.dp.ru/a/2021/08/23/V_Peterburge_zalozhat_eshhjo?hash=777495

In St. Petersburg, laid down two more submarines for the Pacific Fleet





Two diesel-electric submarines Mozhaisk and Yakutsk of project 636.3 Varshavyanka were laid down at the Admiralty shipyards in St. Petersburg. They will become the fifth and sixth boats for the Pacific Fleet.



The start of the construction of new ships on August 23 by videoconference was given by President Vladimir Putin at the Army-2021 forum.

"I congratulate all shipbuilders and naval sailors of Russia on a new important stage in the development of the navy of our country - with the beginning of the construction of another series of modern ships," the head of state said.

"We will continue to develop Russia's naval potential, improve the infrastructure of the fleet, equip ships with the latest weapons and equipment, work out complex combat training tasks in exercises and on long sea voyages, and demonstrate the Russian flag in strategically important areas of the World Ocean," the president stressed.

The simultaneous laying of warships took place in one day at three Russian enterprises. Including the start of the construction of four submarines. At the Sevmash plant in Severodvinsk, two strategic nuclear-powered ships of the Borey-A class were laid down: Dmitry Donskoy and Prince Potemkin. And in Komsomolsk-on-Amur - the corvettes "Grozny" project 20380 and "Buyny" project 20385. They will also go to the Pacific Fleet.

In mid-August, DP wrote that Admiralty Shipyards had sent the Magadan submarine for final tests. This is the third boat built according to Project 636.3 for the Pacific Fleet. The ship will be handed over to the Navy until November 10, 2021.

Magadan was laid down at the Admiralty Shipyards on November 1, 2019 for the Pacific Fleet. On March 26, the submarine was launched. The ship readiness degree was estimated at 91%. In May, she passed mooring tests. On June 27, the submarine went to sea trials.

In 2010-2016, according to the Varshavyanka project, 6 boats were built for the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Navy. Then the company received an order for a series of six submarines for the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Navy. Two of them - "Volkhov" and "Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky" - have already become part of the Pacific Fleet. The fourth boat named "Ufa" is preparing to launch. The contract for the construction of the series was signed in September 2016.

Diesel-electric submarine "Magadan", built for the Pacific fleet, has completed state tests. This was reported by the press service of the Admiralty Shipyards.

https://en.topwar.ru/186463-dizel-jelektricheskaja-podlodka-magadan-dlja-tof-zavershila-gosudarstvennye-ispytanija.html

project 636.3 Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and Volkhov of the Pacific Fleet are moving from the Baltic to their permanent base in the Pacific Fleet

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/12290069

Looks like a wolf pack forming in the Med      

Only for a while, two are on the way to the Pacific. What a journey!!!

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Five Russian Project 636.3 Submarines armed with Kalibr cruise missiles are ALL in the Mediterranean Sea for the first time ever.

Torpedo firing of Kilo class submarine "Dmitrov" in the Baltic Sea during "Zapad-2021"