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    Su-35S: News

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 29, 2019 6:13 pm

    N036 is produced

    What you think those Su-57 prototypes fly with? Is N036.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed May 29, 2019 7:25 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:N036 is produced

    What you think those Su-57 prototypes fly with? Is N036.

    They were prototypes.

    Serial Byelka is still not produced. Maybe it is right now as serial su-57 is being build. But there is 0 operational.

    However it is possible that future build su-35 get Byelka as they use same engines as first su-57s so electrical power is the same.

    Su-30SM1 should be upgraded to su-57 level instead of su-35 level. That would make engines and Byelka's production much cheaper and unify all the 3 jets to make the maintenance easier.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 29, 2019 7:33 pm

    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:N036 is produced

    What you think those Su-57 prototypes fly with? Is N036.

    They were prototypes.

    Serial Byelka is still not produced. Maybe it is right now as serial su-57 is being build. But there is 0 operational.

    However it is possible that future build su-35 get Byelka as they use same engines as first su-57s so electrical power is the same.

    Su-30SM1 should be upgraded to su-57 level instead of su-35 level. That would make engines and Byelka's production much cheaper and unify all the 3 jets to make  the maintenance easier.

    N036 is pre-serial.  It was ready before the plane was ready.  There is also zero serial produced Su-57.  There was a reason why Su-35 doesn't have canards compared to Su-30SM and why Irbis-E cannot be used on Su-57.  Its weight.  N036 is lighter than Irbis-E, which Irbis-E is lighter than Bars-R found in Su-30SM.

    I imagine there will need to make adjustments to the airframe or they will have to add weights to the N036 then Irbis E in order to get them to fit on the other jets.

    I guess you can say first "serial" N036 will be this year when first "Serial" Su-57 enters VKS for training. As of right now there are potentially about 10+ N036 already built. Ground testing units + flight testing ones. That is already more AESA radars than that of the FGA-35 for MiG-35. Unless something else was done. Which makes little sense to me since both radar companies are both owned by Rostec.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:28 am

    https://aviation21.ru/vks-rossii-budut-poluchat-su-35s-parallelno-s-su-57/

    Russian VKS will receive Su-35S in parallel with Su-57

    Posted by 06/10/2019 | @AviaRu | 36

    After the completion of the current contract, purchases of Su-35S fighter jets for the Russian Aerospace Forces will continue in parallel with the purchase of fifth-generation Su-57 aircraft, reports RIA News.

    https://ria.ru/20190610/1555427059.html


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    Post  calripson on Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:42 pm

    Why waste money on Su 35 which will be a fundamentally outdated technology. Better to convert two factories for production of Su 57 and to build 150 instead of 76.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:18 am

    calripson wrote:Why waste money on Su 35 which will be a fundamentally outdated technology. Better to convert two factories for production of Su 57 and to build 150 instead of 76.

    Because su-35 cost them some 20-25 million for domestic variant while su-57 will cost them 3 times that.

    Su-35 being bigger than su-57 can be upgrading with its technology if needed.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:28 am

    Isos wrote:
    calripson wrote:Why waste money on Su 35 which will be a fundamentally outdated technology. Better to convert two factories for production of Su 57 and to build 150 instead of 76.

    Because su-35 cost them some 20-25 million for domestic variant while su-57 will cost them 3 times that.

    Su-35 being bigger than su-57 can be upgrading with its technology if needed.


    20-25 million is price of Su-30 not Su-35

    Su-35 is almost as expensive as Su-57 while being at the end of it's upgrade potential

    The moment Su-57 production revs up Su-35 is out of the game, it was just a stopgap from the beginning

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    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:29 am

    PapaDragon wrote:The moment Su-57 production revs up Su-35 is out of the game, it was just a stopgap from the beginning

    I doubt it....there are plenty of Su-27's still in service, actually they're still upgrading some of them. The Su-35 can replace them in the coming years as numbers increase. As for upgrade potential, I can't see why you can't equip it with new engines, radar, avionics and new weapons as they become available.

    Even the Americans are close to ordering a fairly large number of new F-15's despite F-35 production kicking in
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:48 am

    Because there are a lot of jobs where stealth is rather meaningless and a non stealthy aircraft like the Su-35 wont be nearly as expensive to operate as a stealthy aircraft like the Su-57.

    Even given all things are equal to open a panel and check some electric components on the Su-35 you will need a screwdriver and probably 10 minutes to take a panel off and put it back on again. With an Su-57 you need to scrape off the coating of RAM material and cut away the tape that covers the joins where the panel touches the rest of the aircraft airframe, then unscrew the panel and remove it. Once the internal components are checked the panel needs to be reattached and then tape placed over the panel joins and then a new RAM coating applied to cover the tape and restore the RAM coating... which will likely take a few hours to cure back to hard enough to fly with.

    For normal patrol missions the Su-35 is more than good enough and it can carry a lot more weapons than the Su-57 can when needed.

    The Su-57 is not the replacement for the Su-35 or MiG-35... they compliment them.

    Think of it in terms of family cars... you can have a nice BMW for going out to flash restaurants, but the going on ski trips vehicle will likely be an SUV type, and of course the work vehicle could be something else... if you have three vehicles would you only buy one type?
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:49 am

    Even the Americans are close to ordering a fairly large number of new F-15's despite F-35 production kicking in

    Or indeed because of it... (not being all they promised...)
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:50 am

    PapaDragon wrote:


    20-25 million is price of Su-30 not Su-35

    Su-35 is almost as expensive as Su-57 while being at the end of it's upgrade potential

    The moment Su-57 production revs up Su-35 is out of the game, it was just a stopgap from the beginning


    According to Mike, su-35 is cheaper than su-30 which uses many foreign components.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:21 am

    From the last contract, it came out to roughly $27M per aircraft. That is with the current exchange rate of course. Rubles wise, it was a tad more expensive than the previous orders due to having to replace foreign components with domestic (prices probably dropped again).

    Su-30SM on other hand was around $30M per aircraft because of the foreign parts. But thankfully those are mostly been replaced (HUD and all, Bars R no longer using that Intel processor but using Russian, increased performance and reduced price). I think prices now are roughly the same.

    Su-57 is from what I gathered around ~$50M per aircraft. Which is a tad less than double the price. But that was based upon older quotes and current exchange rates. I think after the price drop guarantee with high order, prices for it may not be much more than $40m per aircraft.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:34 am

    miketheterrible wrote:N036 is produced

    What you think those Su-57 prototypes fly with? Is N036.
    question:
    Even when Russia will have perfected the serial production of AESA radars for both large and small aircrafts, do you believe it will be important to keep producing PESA or hybrid PESA radars, in order not to lose such manufacturing capabilities?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:14 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:N036 is produced

    What you think those Su-57 prototypes fly with? Is N036.
    question:
    Even when Russia will have perfected the serial production of AESA radars for both large and small aircrafts, do you believe it will be important to keep producing PESA or hybrid PESA radars, in order not to lose such manufacturing capabilities?

    If they can make aesa they can make pesa. So no they don't need to keep production of pesa alive.
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Even the Americans are close to ordering a fairly large number of new F-15's despite F-35 production kicking in

    Or indeed because of it... (not being all they promised...)
    As the driver for the order is the aging F-15C/D I think its more a case of there not being enough F-22s around rather than using more of the slower F-35.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:59 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:The moment Su-57 production revs up Su-35 is out of the game, it was just a stopgap from the beginning

    I doubt it....there are plenty of Su-27's still in service, actually they're still upgrading some of them. The Su-35 can replace them in the coming years as numbers increase. As for upgrade potential, I can't see why you can't equip it with new engines, radar, avionics and new weapons as they become available.

    Even the Americans are close to ordering a fairly large number of new F-15's despite F-35 production kicking in


    Su-30 will be replacing those Su-27s

    And now that you mentioned F-15 it's Su-30 that will be doing equivalent of it's job in VKS

    They need one 4gen multirole and one 5gen air superiority aircraft, they don't need several in each class

    Su-35 built before Su-57 will stay in use until their expiration date but will not be purchased for VKS beyond that point



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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:07 am

    Su-35 built before Su-57 will stay in use until their expiration date but will not be purchased for VKS beyond that point

    The reports I have read seem to suggest that the new stealth fighter is not a replacement for the Su-35 and the Su-35 is not a stopgap aircraft.

    They will continue to produce Su-57s and Su-35s and MiG-35s as their front line fighter force.
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:09 pm

    “Dry” Crimean: Peninsula will protect the latest fighters

    In Sevastopol will place the Su-35S, capable of fighting the fifth-generation aircraft

    https://iz.ru/889116/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/sukhie-krymskie-poluostrov-zashchitiat-noveishie-istrebiteli

    SU-35 goes to Crimea.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:19 am

    So Su-35 and Su-27SM3's and I believe some Su-30's for its Navy?

    What about MiG-29's? MiG-29's may be ideal for Crimea because of its rather small airspace?

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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:35 am

    miketheterrible wrote:

    What about MiG-29's?  MiG-29's may be ideal for Crimea because of its rather small airspace?


    Not really. Crimea is a "carrier" to control all south eastern NATO flank. They need long range and heavy payload carrying aircrafts there.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:39 am

    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    What about MiG-29's?  MiG-29's may be ideal for Crimea because of its rather small airspace?


    Not really. Crimea is a "carrier" to control all south eastern NATO flank. They need long range and heavy payload carrying aircrafts there.

    I would say a combination for two concepts - MiG-29's/35's for air defense of the crimean airspace and nearby, while Sukhois for the long range (strikes, engagements and seaside defense).

    Just an opinion. But seeing how MiG-29's are being replaced in Armenia by Russia for Su-30's, I guess the time of the MiG-29 is over and will simply be a reserve jet and thats all.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:41 am

    The sea around Crimea means s-400 can do their job very well with no moutains to hide behind and if they are elevated the radar horizon can be 50-60km away. I guess some migs would make it even better but there is no real future for it in russia.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:46 am

    Isos wrote:The sea around Crimea means s-400 can do their job very well with no moutains to hide behind and if they are elevated the radar horizon can be 50-60km away. I guess some migs would make it even better but there is no real future for it in russia.

    AD can be overwhelmed quite easily especially with NATO ships and their cruise missiles.

    It is ideal to have air defense in terms of fighter jets as well. To help strike at the assets that are shooting at them, plus also to help shoot down cruise missiles.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:58 am

    AD can be overwhelmed quite easily especially with NATO ships and their cruise missiles.
    US ships.

    Give-or-take the Spanish frigates the rest of NATO navies combined would have a hard time over-saturating the AD in Crimea.

    Good to see Su-35s going there though, I've been fairly surprised they haven't put more modern fighters there before while putting in a lot of other modern gear.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:02 am

    AD can be overwhelmed quite easily especially with NATO ships and their cruise missiles.

    It is ideal to have air defense in terms of fighter jets as well. To help strike at the assets that are shooting at them, plus also to help shoot down cruise missiles.

    Agree with hoom for the first part and I would add there is not lot of US ships in the Black sea. And the bastion P, bal-e coastal complexes with the 3 Grigorovitch and 6 imp kilos will take care of any one trying to come inside the black sea. The grigorovitch would also make another line of defence against cruise missiles and bombers.

    In the future they will deploy probably some S-350 with 12 missiles per launchers (probavly 4 launchers per units or more). Good luck overwhelming Crimean defences.

    Shooting down cruise missiles with fighters is not easy. Radars quoted with 300km range won't have 300km range against cruise missile flying 10 above the sea.most of the time they won't see them.

    Sukhois means they will attack intruders before intruders attack them. Best defence is attack. I would add a couple of ground UKSK there also.

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