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    Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue May 07, 2019 4:47 pm

    MiamiMachineShop wrote:Design a whole other ship? They have 7 of these practically in service already including the one project 20385 coming soon. Totally there is planned: 6 - 20380 for baltic fleet + 4 for pacific fleet with 2 project 20385. These ships are not meant for long distance patrol, the projects 20385 might be able to conduct serious anti sub or anti shipping operations a little farther from kuril islands, but they're not meant to go to indian ocean or farther blue waters. Add to that Admiral Nakhimov, Varyag, Udaloys, and the gorshkovs, which recently 2 more were laid down, and you have a blue ocean force. Add the submarines based at Vladivostok, and it is a balanced force and that is for the Pacific side only. All they miss is a carrier.

    At Kamchatka base there will be 1241 upgraded, tarantul upgraded, and soon karakurts, grishas are outdated and need replacing, 20380 perfectly fulfills the roles of grisha and 1241(nanuchka) or tarantul. Karakurt will also accelerate the modernization of all frigates and corvettes there which are needed to protect from incursions of enemy subs, ships into sea of okhotsk for which destroyers are overkill. Large ships of pacific fleet should be operating past the kuril islands, not worrying about coastal operations. Within the island chain barrier, corvettes and frigates to their job reliably to secure Russian Federation

    22380 are double the size and much more expensive than grisha, nanuchka and tarantul.

    In addition they are too large to be built in most of the shipyards capable to build those smaller ships, so they need to be built in the shipyards capable to build frigates and destroyers,  further delaying  the series production of larger ships.

    It is like the ukrainians planning to build their 2500 tons project 58250 corvettes in the same shipyard that was producing aircraft carriers until a few years before...

    They were at least justified by having a lot of big, unused shipyards and practically no orders for large ships.

    Russia has the opposite problem.
    MiamiMachineShop
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 07, 2019 5:02 pm

    They will not individually be replacing tarantul, nanuchka, and grisha, the 20380 is multirole and can perform their functions at once. Less will be made, for Pacific 4 + 2 - 20385. Some of the tarantuls and nanuchkas are being upgraded as well, and will be kept in service, after all you are right these simple and cheap ships can do their job, but will be tremendously augmented by 20380, 20385, and 22800.

    Then you will have Nakhimov, Varyag, Udaloys, Gorshkovs, and whatever they want to build down the road for Pacific Fleet. Honestly even before start on a carrier I can see a task group of the Nakhimov, 2 Udaloys, 1 Gorshkov, tankers, and 1 Yasen or Oscar class making a Venezuela type visit for Blue ocean operation. Varyag, several Udaloys, can remain at base for repairs.

    I don't see an issue, there are ships for reliable defense and show of flag operations, that task force I mentioned would not only be capable of showing the flag, but also of defending itself. Nakhimov will be as close as it gets to a new ship of cruiser size, Udaloys are being upgraded and are effective at their task, More Gorshkovs means they can be sent on pacific operations and carry serious armament. With a submarine accompanying them, it is a credible force with deterrence of any enemy.
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue May 07, 2019 5:05 pm

    MiamiMachineShop wrote:Off topic much

    In any case 20380 has nothing to do with confronting the french fleet, 20380 is being stationed in Baltic Sea and Sea of Okhotsk, and I posted details of an attack involving all of the weapons the administrator is talking about. Those weapons attacked a "chemical research site" they did not launch any of those missiles at S-400 or S-300, so we do not know the effective performance of those platforms, except that majority were downed by soviet era SAM's.

    The French fleet is the second most capable in NATO, who do you think the 20380 was designed to fight? The Admiralty literally expects the 20380s of the Baltic Fleet to patrol the Med and the Indian Ocean. The fleet commanders were fired for not carrying out that mission. When it does what it is expected to do, that puts it in direct conflict of interest of the French fleet whose job it is to keep those sea lanes open. If NATO does attack us, the CdG battle group will be attacking us and the 20380 will be expected to do battle with them. With the French occupying Eastern Syria with their proxy Kurdish Army, there is a very real possibility of the two forces engaging one another. There was already one close call but we exhibited restraint, something the warmongering French know nothing about. They might not have the ability to finish WWIII, but they certainly have the ability to start it.

    20380 is a good supplement with bigger ships of course, but that is no reason to stop building this ship. It is decently armed and within its areas of responsibility, Baltic sea and sea of Okhotsk it is perfect, the navies which 20380 will be facing are: Polish, Swedish, Finnish, Baltics, those NATO countries do not have much of a navy anyway so it doesn't help the argument to stop building this ship. In Okhotsk sea I do not sea these ships operating outside the kuril island chain and the probable navy it faces is Japanese. These are ASW corvettes, they are not meant to operate facing the US of French navies on open seas. They are hunting subs, and doing anti-shipping close to Russian waters. None of the points made by the admin or the supporting arguments make any sense in relation to 20380 and the threats it faces, if it is a call to bigger ships fine, but do not say 20380 is a waste of time.

    It doesn't matter if it is a good ship, what matters is the value for money. Its area of responsibility goes as far as the IOR where the French fleet and its Rafales are currently exercising against the MiG-29Ks of the Vikramaditya battle group. The current hostpots it would be needed are in the Eastern Med to keep an eye on Syria, keep NATO out of the Black Sea and monitor the Suez. With the base at Tartus it would at least be able to do that, without it, it would not have the autonomy to perform as needed. Another place it could be needed is Venezuela. For both missions it is far inferior to what Gorshkovs can do and why we need that instead. The Cold War relics we rely on will not be around for long and we better acquire some mission capable ships soon or we really will be left to a glorified coast guard.
    MiamiMachineShop
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 07, 2019 5:46 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:The French fleet is the second most capable in NATO, who do you think the 20380 was designed to fight?  The Admiralty literally expects the 20380s of the Baltic Fleet to patrol the Med and the Indian Ocean.  The fleet commanders were fired for not carrying out that mission.  When it does what it is expected to do, that puts it in direct conflict of interest of the French fleet whose job it is to keep those sea lanes open.  If NATO does attack us, the CdG battle group will be attacking us and the 20380 will be expected to do battle with them.  With the French occupying Eastern Syria with their proxy Kurdish Army, there is a very real possibility of the two forces engaging one another.  There was already one close call but we exhibited restraint, something the warmongering French know nothing about.  They might not have the ability to finish WWIII, but they certainly have the ability to start it.

    It doesn't matter if it is a good ship, what matters is the value for money.  Its area of responsibility goes as far as the IOR where the French fleet and its Rafales are currently exercising against the MiG-29Ks of the Vikramaditya battle group.  The current hostpots it would be needed are in the Eastern Med to keep an eye on Syria, keep NATO out of the Black Sea and monitor the Suez.  With the base at Tartus it would at least be able to do that, without it, it would not have the autonomy to perform as needed.  Another place it could be needed is Venezuela.  For both missions it is far inferior to what Gorshkovs can do and why we need that instead. The Cold War relics we rely on will not be around for long and we better acquire some mission capable ships soon or we really will be left to a glorified coast guard.  

    You didn't read. Why would 20380 go to open sea? If they are based in Baltic Fleet or Pacific Fleet, why would these ships  respond to a French provocation in the eastern Mediterranean? I doubt commanders were fired "for not sending 20380 on long range patrols". 20380 is not in Sevastopol base or Novorossiysk, so like I said still not relevant. There are other platforms which will be acting in eastern med which can respond much faster, to date: 3 - 11356, 6 - 636.6, 1 - Kashin class, 2 Krivak class, 1 - bykov class, these platforms can act uninterrupted in black sea, or in eastern med. east of Cyprus reliably. If the carrier is dumb enough to venture east of cyprus it will be the largest site for diving enthusiasts world wide. If they build Tartus base than yes, 20380 can act from there, but its not necessary with platforms in Sevastopol or Novorossiysk. Off the east. med, they also have S-400 Umbrella, and shore based aviation from Latakia. Russia chose not to respond in 2018, but if it wanted to the results could have been disastrous for NATO. With coastal defense platforms, coastal ships and subs, air defenses, and such the east. med up to Cyprus is reliably Russian zone. TU-22m3 flew from Hamadan to remind NATO of the pounding it will get if it continues to provoke.

    20380 has nothing to do with responding to French provocations, or making appearances in indian oceans, for this other platforms exist. 20380 has another job entirely and it fulfills it reliably. For distant operations, Udaloy performs ASW reliably and with 30 year life extension refit, it will augment gorshkov entering into service. Kasatonov is already on trials, for all intents and purposes it is in service. 4 other Gorshkov are laid down and moving along, 6 Gorshkov with upgraded Udaloys and even the Nakhimov can respond any time any place and any where. That is the near future of the blue water force, and it looks credible and deadly to any observer.

    2018 strike showed the world NATO capability, it was laughable dude, embarassing, fucking type 45 was chased by a kilo class submarine[/quote]
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue May 07, 2019 6:28 pm

    MiamiMachineShop wrote:

    You didn't read. Why would 20380 go to open sea? If they are based in Baltic Fleet or Pacific Fleet, why would these ships  respond to a French provocation in the eastern Mediterranean? I doubt commanders were fired "for not sending 20380 on long range patrols".

    Apparently you didn't read as I have already posted this before.

    Baltic Fleet commanders fired

    They argue that these shortcomings include the unsatisfactory performance of Baltic Fleet minesweepers during exercises that took place in August 2015, combined with a low level of combat readiness among the fleet’s newest ships. The fleet’s four Project 20380 Steregushchiy class corvettes have not deployed to the Mediterranean Sea or Indian Ocean a single time in the nine years since the first of the ships was commissioned into the fleet. Furthermore, the ships have had more than their share of accidents and fires.

    https://russiamil.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/baltic-fleet-commanders-fired/
    MiamiMachineShop
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 07, 2019 6:38 pm

    Dmitry Gorenburg writes for Harvard... Russiamil cannot be considered serious source dude, all the authors work for western thinktanks, its practically like a hoover foundation article or a CSIS article

    Didn't these guys also predict the Russian economic collapse and the defeat of Russia? I see where you get your mindset from, in any case don't let these guys make you hate yourself dude, they are class A morons and have to shill out for money. They have no clue what is happening in the baltic fleet or in Russia at all. These guys literally write for harvard
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue May 07, 2019 6:46 pm

    Miami, the problem is that the budget is not infinite.

    They are nice, modern ships, but they are not cheap.

    For the role that you are explaining they are overkill.
    If they do not need to venture at all in patrols far from the homeport they are then oversized and overexpensive brown navy ships.

    For antiship role near the coast they can use the smaller karakurt or buyan M or just land based bastion launchers.

    The only missing parts is antisub role near the coast, but then 20380 and 20385 are just too expensive (especially if it is true that two of them cost as much as a gorshkov frigate).



    I would like the black sea and the Baltic fleet to have a good mix of modern dedicated small ships (missile ship, minesweeper and antisub) and larger frigates and destroyers, plus of course amphibious ships.
    MiamiMachineShop
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 07, 2019 7:00 pm

    Severnaya Verf - Project 22350 - 16 Billion Rubles (230 Million $)

    Amur Shipyard/Severnaya/CMDB Almaz - Propject 20380 - 5 billion rubles (81 million $)


    3 for 1, and the costs will get lower farther along production, and export versions the price is hiked by a factor of almost 2. You can even make profit making these ships sold as Tigr.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue May 07, 2019 7:24 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:

    Baltic Fleet commanders fired
    The fleet’s four Project 20380 Steregushchiy class corvettes have not deployed to the Mediterranean Sea or Indian Ocean a single time in the nine years since the first of the ships was commissioned into the fleet. Furthermore, the ships have had more than their share of accidents and fires.

    https://russiamil.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/baltic-fleet-commanders-fired/

    They should fire themselves too. Any admiral or vice admiral will know that such a ship is not meant to be deployed in oceans around the world but to fight near the shores.

    And the first ones were armed with kashtan and 8 uran. I don't what they expect it to do in oceans.
    MiamiMachineShop
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 07, 2019 7:39 pm

    http://tass.com/defense/1053963

    This is the true tasks of 20380, notional missile strikes, anti sub abilities.

    https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2019/april/7024-russian-baltic-fleet-e-launched-missiles-at-surface-targets.html

    Its corvette, and works with other corvettes and frigates to destroy the enemy in the near sea zone. Grisha is not effective platform, it can drop charges, and fire torpedoes, but 20380 is much more modern and capable. Its larger, but less are needed to accomplish similar and more advanced tasks. In conjunction with others, I do not see any navy achieving superiority over Russia in Baltic sea. Maybe Gorshkov can replace aging Sovs, and the Krivak Pytlivy. But there are only 3 large ships in baltic fleet currently. In any case, 20380 will serve against local threats to St. Petersburg, Kaliningrad, and protect Pskov paratroopers oceanic flank if actions happen in baltics or Finland
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 07, 2019 10:10 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:..........
    The fleet’s four Project 20380 Steregushchiy class corvettes have not deployed to the Mediterranean Sea or Indian Ocean a single time in the nine years since the first of the ships was commissioned into the fleet. Furthermore, the ships have had more than their share of accidents and fires.
    https://russiamil.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/baltic-fleet-commanders-fired/

    They should fire themselves too. Any admiral or vice admiral will know that such a ship is not meant to be deployed in oceans around the world but to fight near the shores.

    And the first ones were armed with kashtan and 8 uran. I don't what they expect it to do in oceans.


    You hit the nail on the head here.

    I remember this news but I completely glossed over locations back then.

    None of these new ships in Baltic Fleet were designed to go beyond North Atlantic. They are primarily anti-sub platforms and anti-sub missions are 90% of the reason behind existence of Russia's surface navy (freakin' Udalois are designated as anti-submarine destroyers FFS...)

    And Steregushchi were designed and built back when Russia and NATO were best good friends so what's with this sudden expectation that short-range ant-sub focused corvette should somehow be deployed half way around the world against friendly surface fleets?

    If you want corvettes to patrol Mediterranean then you need to station them in the Black Sea not Baltic. Why didn't they do it?

    If you want to patrol Indian Ocean then you need to do it with frigates (ones you build in more than one shipyard instead of treating them like limited edition art and craft).

    But why patrol Indian Ocean when your friends are already doing it for you?


    Corvettes are for local operations so Navy should stop pretending that they weren't played for fools by Europeans alongside entire country.


    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed May 08, 2019 12:46 am

    MiamiMachineShop wrote:Dmitry Gorenburg writes for Harvard... Russiamil cannot be considered serious source dude, all the authors work for western thinktanks, its practically like a hoover foundation article or a CSIS article

    Didn't these guys also predict the Russian economic collapse and the defeat of Russia? I see where you get your mindset from, in any case don't let these guys make you hate yourself dude, they are class A morons and have to shill out for money. They have no clue what is happening in the baltic fleet or in Russia at all. These guys literally write for harvard

    Ilya Kramnik doesn't write for Harvard.  He is a well known naval reporter for Izvestiya.  He never predicted the economic collapse of Russia, he is not an economist, he is a reporter specialising in naval affairs of Russia.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Wed May 08, 2019 12:52 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    MiamiMachineShop wrote:Dmitry Gorenburg writes for Harvard... Russiamil cannot be considered serious source dude, all the authors work for western thinktanks, its practically like a hoover foundation article or a CSIS article

    Didn't these guys also predict the Russian economic collapse and the defeat of Russia? I see where you get your mindset from, in any case don't let these guys make you hate yourself dude, they are class A morons and have to shill out for money. They have no clue what is happening in the baltic fleet or in Russia at all. These guys literally write for harvard

    Ilya Kramnik doesn't write for Harvard.  He is a well known naval reporter for Izvestiya.  He never predicted the economic collapse of Russia, he is not an economist, he is a reporter specialising in naval affairs of Russia.

    vlad do we know if Navy has plans for a new corvette design besides 20380/20385/20386?
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    Post  hoom on Thu May 09, 2019 3:48 am

    Entering Kronshtadt
    Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette - Page 32 N8Nnvc9FiN8
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    Post  hoom on Thu May 09, 2019 4:27 pm

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    Post  hoom on Sun May 12, 2019 11:47 am

    A first elevated rear pic of Gremy showing the Redut location
    Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette - Page 32 12-7488913-omgzlu1giw0
    Its a bit odd but actually pretty clever spot to put missiles: gets the weight low for CoG & while they sort of cramp the heli-deck they're well below blades and thats actually a pretty dead space normally.
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    Post  Gazputin on Tue May 14, 2019 9:23 am

    in the new USA Zumwalt they have the missiles out near the edges so a hit will blow outwards and not blow the ship apart ...
    bit like how the Israeli Merkava tanks have their diesel fuel inside their armour ... to behave like explosive reactive armour ... and explode outwards

    in fact a lot of the Zumwalt layout reminds me of the 20386 ....
    big flat rear deck .... gattling guns on the chopper hangar roof .....
    high large superstructure .....
    etc

    ignoring the hull shape yes ....
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    Post  hoom on Wed May 15, 2019 2:24 pm

    More HD Gremy
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    I love you
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    Post  hoom on Fri May 17, 2019 9:54 am

    Even more HD pics
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    Good clear of the optics (?)
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    Post  hoom on Mon May 20, 2019 1:52 am

    Even moar!



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    Post  kumbor on Mon May 20, 2019 12:31 pm

    Gazputin wrote:in the new USA Zumwalt they have the missiles out near the edges so  a hit will blow outwards and not blow the ship apart ...
    bit like how the Israeli Merkava tanks have their diesel fuel inside their armour ... to behave like explosive reactive armour ... and explode outwards

    in fact a lot of the Zumwalt layout reminds me of the 20386 ....
    big flat rear deck .... gattling guns on the chopper hangar roof .....
    high large superstructure .....
    etc

    ignoring the hull shape yes ....

    Sorry, but you obviously know little about physics of explosion. How do you know that if hit, Zumwalt missile compartment will explode outwards? i bet rather opposite, as explosion of a missile will push shipboard missiles inboard, making space of lesser resistance, ruining ship`s structure, and making conditions of shipboard missiles to go off further INBOARD, severing ship in tiny small parts flying all over the place. And this is only one of numerous catastrophic flaws of Zumwalt design. E.g. Even in a sea state 7 Zumwalt hull tend to act as a submarine, it simply tends TO DIVE bow down, propellers out of the water.
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    Post  Tingsay on Mon May 20, 2019 1:48 pm

    Is that new integrated mast supposed to be painted differently or was it constructed way after the ship itself?
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    Post  hoom on Tue May 21, 2019 12:18 am

    It does look lighter in some of these pics but I think its just a light angle thing.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 21, 2019 5:43 am

    Sorry, but you obviously know little about physics of explosion. How do you know that if hit, Zumwalt missile compartment will explode outwards?

    Good point... and to be honest while they will likely have a thick firewall separating them from the rest of the ship, these missile compartments have enormous amounts of explosives and solid fuel propellents... if that detonates then it wont matter where it is located... it will be dozens of tons of HE exploding... even if it does not penetrate the firewall armour it will blow the armour compartment through the ship anyway...
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    Post  Gazputin on Tue May 21, 2019 8:08 am

    I'm just telling you guys what the design parameters were with the Zumwalt
    I never said I agreed with it …

    I'm sure the US Navy would be fascinated by your "expertise"
    they spend millions and all they had to ask was ask you "experts" …. seriously






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