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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:21 am

    Also, what does it matter if a 20KT nuke hits 90 or 300 meters from its target?
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:48 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Also, what does it matter if a 20KT nuke hits 90 or 300 meters from its target?

    A 20 kiloton warhead? why would you ever use a tactical nuclear device on a city Russia has 800 kt warheads althoug even thoes will not completely destroy a city.

    Is it possible to make all your nuclear weapons multi megaton without withdrawing from that stupid start treaty?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:27 am


    Even a single nuke dropped on any city regardless of it's size would instantly severely deprecate real estate value.

    Indeed but a single SLBM landing on a port will hardly take out every single submarine at the hardened underground submarine base at that port, nor the store of nuclear missiles there either.

    Russia does not have hundreds of SSBN submarine bases so we can assume that when S-400 and S-500 are operating together they will likely post some nearby that sub base...

    The only way the CEP would be different is for highly maneuverable designs. Since resources are limited, there may be some sacrifice of CEP to overcome ABMs.

    Actually MARV warheads are more accurate than MIRV warheads because they can fine tune their trajectory right up to detonation or impact depending on what they are set for.

    Also, what does it matter if a 20KT nuke hits 90 or 300 meters from its target?

    A 20Kt warhead exploding 300m from a mountain base containing a sub base wont be very effective.

    the same warhead exploding at 90m wont be very effective either.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:26 am

    GarryB wrote:

    A 20Kt warhead exploding 300m from a mountain base containing a sub base wont be very effective.

    the same warhead exploding at 90m wont be very effective either.

    Atleast someone here doesn't think nukes instant destroyers of anything and eaverything regardless of blast yeild.

    For thoes who do not know how powerfull a nuclear device would have to be in order to gaurantee complete destruction of a large city this little device here is a fine example.



    Note I said "gaurantee comlete destruction" and not kill all inhabitants or make uninhabitable for a century.

    I remeber reading about a 50mt version of the RS-28 Sarmat is this true? Such a warhead would be a great way to scare enemies of and completeley destroy infrastructure.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:50 pm

    GarryB wrote:Russian SLBMs are able to hit most of their targets from the pier they operate from and most of the time the vessels sitting at port are fully armed because they are not having their reactor overhauled. In a time of tension more SSBNs would be deployed, making a successful surprise attack less effective.
    Exactly, as I said a few posts back. Minimal deterrence is enough, the MAD doctrine is ancient history. They could also overlap deployments &/ increase their turnaround by having replacement crews brought by planes to Arctic islands 1st, then by ships &/ helicopters. Time on patrol can be increased by taking several less BMs & loading their tubes with supplies. 1 US Marine told me that he could live & continue his mission on just 1 MRE for 2 weeks, consuming it in small portions. For 107 total Borei crew, it's = 214 MREs per month.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meal,_Ready-to-Eat
    http://www.mreinfo.com/international-rations/russian-irp/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfOTmfwRTFs

    Their MRE could include just food in a smaller package, & even if it's good only for 1 week, 428 (if not more) MREs could fit in those tubes!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:43 am

    Hahahahahah... MREs....

    I remember some of those being so bad they got the nickname... Meals Rejected by (starving) Ethiopians.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:37 pm

    That doesn't mean that the Russian MREs will be rejected by the Russian military, incl. submariners who don't exert as much energy as soldiers, marines, airman or surface sailors! Aboard subs, they can also be mixed with regular foodstuffs for better nutritional balance. Also, dehydrated potato flake mixes & canned veggies, meats & fish take a lot less space than raw potatoes, veggies, meats & fish- with those, time on patrol can be increased w/o or between their resupply. Btw, supplying them will be a lot easier as they don't patrol as far as Mid-Atlantic & Mid- Pacific, unlike the US, UK & the French SSBNs.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:57 pm

    H I Sutton‏ @CovertShores
    15h15 hours ago

    New cutaway drawing of latest #Russia ballistic missile #submarine, pr.0955A Borei-II. Drawn in MS Paint, about 10 hours work, time lapse out soon. http://www.hisutton.com/Borei-A.html media versions available




    hoom

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  hoom on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:49 am

    Gotta love how media is all 'it copies US sail fillet' as if USSR didn't start doing hull/sail fillets before everyone else & much more thoroughly  Mad

    Though combined with the blended in missile area & Ts on the horizontal stabilisers it does have quite an overall 'Omahaski' feel to it.

    And I really have no idea WTH the designers thought they were doing with the original reverse rake, blunt form sail.

    Edit: I read elsewhere apparently the first 3 all have different rudder/stabiliser configs.
    To me that indicates a longitudinal stability issue they've been working to resolve & I'd not be at all surprised if that sail was a significant part of the cause.


    Last edited by hoom on Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:35 pm

    I think the change to the sail was foreseen from start.

    First boats have been built from sections left from unbuilt SSNs, meaning both cross section was smaller and available length for sail conjunction to hull different, most likely shorter than envisaged in Pr. 995.

    So more than an upgrade, I would think this sail is the original one, while first boats are sporting a modified sail to adapt to a structurally quite different hull.

    Real changes/updates are more likely those changes in the boat's stern, apart anything else inside the hull itself that could have been upgraded and would never be seen by outside world.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:05 pm

    I wonder, why they didn't use those SSN hauls for Yasen SSGNs instead? Were they so desperate to get the 1st 2 Boreys built ASAP?
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:39 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:I wonder, why they didn't use those SSN hauls for Yasen SSGNs instead? Were they so desperate to get the 1st 2 Boreys built ASAP?

    Probably because a cutting edge SSN is a far more complex (and more expensive beast) than a boomer, and it is the boomers that are vital for national defense. Russia needed to finish the Severodvinsk to an advanced stage and design the follow-on improved variant before committing to extra hulls.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Peŕrier on Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:54 pm

    Mmmm, I suspect it's the other way around, being the SSBN's ships far more complex than SSNs.

    Everybody, its dog and even its cat try to chase others' SSBNs 24/7.

    Every SSBN has a requirement for unparalleled quietness and, at the same time, for superb sensors both environmental than magnetic and acoustic.

    The choice to give top riority to 995s IMHO was based on a quite simple fact: if you loose your SSNs, you loose your ability to chase enemy's SSBN, and in turn to endanger enemy's deterrent. But if you loose your SSBNs, you loose your own deterrent.

    Neither option is fancy, but the second could be far more catastrophic in terms of strategic balance.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:19 am

    Quietness & sensors r equally important to SSNs, SSGNs & SSBNs.
    In previous decades, before Borei came out, USSR/Russian SSNs had to escort its SSBNs on patrols because of their higher noises, while, as far as I know & from all indications, the US SSBNs (now all based on LA class SSN) didn't need SSN escorts.
    It's possible that the 1st 2 Boreis will later be converted to SSGNs or other specialized subs after the follow on class units replace them, if not before.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:12 am

    U.S. SSBNs are the Ohio class, and they are in no way related neither to Los Angeles nor Seawolf or Virginia SSNs.

    It's speculated that in the future, to contain costs, next generation of U.S. SSBN could be derived from the Virginia class SSN.

    The very concept that deriving a future SSBN from a SSN project could save money should be a fair testament about how much cutting edge technology has been poured until today in SSBN's design and development.

    The same applies to everybody fielding boomers: loosing an SSN would be a tragedy, loosing a SSBN wolud be a strategic disaster.

    While developing a new SSN some shortcut and compromise would be accepted to keep the whole project to some extent affordable, when designing a SSBN whatever is available in terms of technologies will be put to use if it could enhance boat's survival chances.

    Talking of SSBN is talking about the most valuable strategic asset in terms of nuclear deterrence, neither silos or vehicle based ICBM, nor strategic bombers, are so hard to detect and engage for the enemy.

    Past soviet's SSBN suffered mainly from their liquid propellant SLBM, making them both bulky and very little discreet when preparing their missiles to launch.

    To make matters worst, a liquid propellant missile takes a long time to be ready to launch, and the minutes from when a SSBN rise from deeper waters to reach the intended launching deep are the most dangerous, exposing itself to detection as it crosses many thermoclines and signalling clearly it's close to launch.

    The shorter the time to launch, the lesser the chances a stalking SSN could engage and destroy the SSBN before it launches his payload.

    So there are very good reasons to try harder than with anything else to make SSBNs the most advanced boats technology could buy you.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:26 am

    Peŕrier wrote:U.S. SSBNs are the Ohio class, and they are in no way related neither to Los Angeles nor Seawolf or Virginia SSNs.

    It's speculated that in the future, to contain costs, next generation of U.S. SSBN could be derived from the Virginia class SSN.

    The very concept that deriving a future SSBN from a SSN project could save money should be a fair testament about how much cutting edge technology has been poured until today in SSBN's design and development.

    The same applies to everybody fielding boomers: loosing an SSN would be a tragedy, loosing a SSBN wolud be a strategic disaster.

    While developing a new SSN some shortcut and compromise would be accepted to keep the whole project to some extent affordable, when designing a SSBN whatever is available in terms of technologies will be put to use if it could enhance boat's survival chances.

    Talking of SSBN is talking about the most valuable strategic asset in terms of nuclear deterrence, neither silos or vehicle based ICBM, nor strategic bombers, are so hard to detect and engage for the enemy.

    Past soviet's SSBN suffered mainly from their liquid propellant SLBM, making them both bulky and very little discreet when preparing their missiles to launch.

    To make matters worst, a liquid propellant missile takes a long time to be ready to launch, and the minutes from when a SSBN rise from deeper waters to reach the intended launching deep are the most dangerous, exposing itself to detection as it crosses many thermoclines and signalling clearly it's close to launch.

    The shorter the time to launch, the lesser the chances a stalking SSN could engage and destroy the SSBN before it launches his payload.

    So there are very good reasons to try harder than with anything else to make SSBNs the most advanced boats technology could buy you.

    The borey is waaaay less expensive than the yassen
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:35 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:U.S. SSBNs are the Ohio class, and they are in no way related ..to Los Angeles..SSNs.
    ..a liquid propellant missile takes a long time to be ready to launch, ..
    Both classes r related, even if not directly, by being concurrently produced by the same EB yard: http://armedforces.eu/compare/submarines_Los_Angeles-class_vs_Ohio-class
    https://www.hazegray.org/shipbuilding/eb.htm
    I can't find a link, but read somewhere that the Ohio class uses enlarged & elongated LA class haul. Their shapes r almost identical, except the conning tower positioned more forward & a hump behind it on the Ohio: https://redcdn.net/hpimg15/pics/270495submarinosestadounidenses.jpg

    On a sub, unlike on land, their propellant is already in the BM, so why does it take "a long time to be ready to launch"?

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Peŕrier on Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:20 am

    Still they are not related, they are two very different boats.

    About liquid propellant missiles, usually they need a warm up of internal mechanics before start to assure propulsion will work as expected.

    It's something that solid propellant missiles dispense with, having almost no mechanical parts.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:05 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:On a sub, unlike on land, their propellant is already in the BM, so why does it take "a long time to be ready to launch"?

    Not true.  ICBM/SLBM using store-able hypergolic propellants are always in a fully fuelled condition.  A liquid fuelled missile might require some prep time (eg to pressurise tanks) but I doubt its significant.  Regarding "vulnerabilities" to the carrying SSBN, the boomer won't rise to firing depth until weapons are ready to fire, and the firing depth is no different to solids.  Finally, liquids are significantly more powerful propellants than solids, and the motors develop higher ISP.  Liquids are however less dense than solids so requires more volume, ie large tanks, and the liquid fuelled missile needs interstices to house its engines, pressure bottles etc so the missile tends to be larger.

    Arrow

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow on Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:29 pm

    The borey is waaaay less expensive than the yassen wrote:

    Why ? Propably 955 consisting of part 971 yes but 955A is propably more expensive than 955.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:26 am


    According to TASS development of Borei-B to start in 2018, construction in 2023, delivery in 2027, same hull, new pump jet, lower noise, no less than 4 ships in series.

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840412

    If true then it's definitely going to be Husky SSGN/SSN and Borei-B getting built in parallel before they move to Husky SSBN (not to brag but in that case ,told you so Cool )
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:25 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    Why ? Propably 955 consisting of part 971 yes but 955A is propably more expensive than 955.


    The first three 955 was assembled from leftover reactors/hull segments/sonars, so the fourth one needed new supply chain, and that is expensive .The cost of the first three together was as much as the fourth single unit.

    However the borei A compared to yassen A at least two - maybe four times cheaper.

    Arrow

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow on Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:43 pm

    However the borei A compared to yassen A at least two - maybe four times cheaper. wrote:

    Why ? new Borey A use propably the same reactor, turbine, use new pump jet it is more expensive than a screw. Propably similar electronic equipment. What is so expensive in Yasen-M?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:46 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    However the borei A compared to yassen A at least two - maybe four times cheaper. wrote:

    Why ? new Borey A use propably the same reactor, turbine, use new pump jet it is more expensive than a screw. Propably similar electronic equipment. What is so expensive in Yasen-M?

    Yasens like all SSGNs need to dive much deeper than Boreis and other SSBNs so that alone means much more complicated design

    Arrow

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow on Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:29 pm

    Yasens like all SSGNs need to dive much deeper than Boreis and other SSBNs so that alone means much more complicated design wrote:

    Not much deeper. Even the titanium hulls are not that expensive. Yasen-M uses steel with greater strength. Mayby equivalent to Hy-100. This is not the reason for the high price.

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