AK-12 Rifle Discussion

many people said AK 12 is AK47 made in new material , and no big difference from AK47. is that true?

type055 wrote:many people said AK 12 is AK47 made in new material , and no big difference from AK47.   is that true?

May be not only the gun... technological upgrade can be occured in manufacturing facilities, and design of the catridge.

What can be sure is that the basic concept of AKs from 194x to nowadays is basically the same. But there is a lot of modification in each versions.

Each modification has to experience extremely harsh test to verify the value in real battlefield. Therefore, whatever changes occured in AK-12 will be very meaningful.

If only Vietnamese goverment had purchase the Russian AK's package rather than Galil... surely many of the technological achievements in AK-12 can be applied in that package as well.

many people said AK 12 is AK47 made in new material , and no big difference from AK47. is that true?

Those same people probably say all China can do is copy...

The AK12 is what happens when you get a westerner and they look at the AK-74 and try to fix all its real and perceived problems.

It is the best rifle the AK-74 could be without starting from scratch and making a whole new rifle design.

Strizh wrote:
Is this how the new AK12 will look like? Looks much better than the previous version.

Now can you provide info where you got such nice detailed Assault Rifles images
looking to for similar pictures of AN-94 ,Ak-74m ,Aek-971,ADS and Ash-12.7 if you see any.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Yay we finally made a RK 95...

Modernized 74MR. Eotech XPS 2/3 non included .

That muzzle flash hider just looks like an SLRs slotted model... and the mechanism is just an AK-74 setup... a little boring...  

Why those damn MRs all look different. Russian firearms are... Headache to follow

No muzzle break = dislike. The muzzle break gives the 74 very accurate and stable fire in bursts or in full auto, also reduces the time after each single shoot to center your target then without a muzzle break.

That is a muzzle brake. Keep in mind the MR is a modernisation of OLD rifles. I posted the characteristic features of Brand New 74M's. Check the rifle at hand. It has been refurbished and completed with what are typically OLD parts (dimples, folding button, gas block) and new addons (new-style m193 like dust cover, SVD styles muzzle-break, buttstock with buffer tube lookalike).

IE this recycling. Don't sweat it. What is bretty gud is the 107 set up. Verry gud.

With the foregrip the muzzle-break compensator is less needed, albeit will still probably be fitted for standard army rifles I'm almost sure (which prob. won't have the foregrip)

This photo shows an experimental set-up I'm guessing, or one optimized for short-range urban fighting.

flamming_python wrote:With the foregrip the muzzle-break compensator is less needed, albeit will still probably be fitted for standard army rifles I'm almost sure (which prob. won't have the foregrip)

This photo shows an experimental set-up I'm guessing, or one optimized for short-range urban fighting.

The muzzle brake is always needed (in this case as a flash hider) because of the inherent linearity it provides to the kinetic sequence when firing. Furthermore these are the full kits, one can use the grip at one's discretion, albeit the rail would also pose an issue for the GP-25/30 complement anyway, grip or not.

I must say who ever photographed the buttstock did an horrible job last time, since this one is by far more polished. It still is an UAS inspired product, but at a far lesser cost. All in all I must revise my opinion, it isn't bad. Zenitco will have to lobby the troops diffrently to have them pick its products. These seem perfect for the conscript masses. 8/10 would hit with small discount.

Full post btw: http://thebrigade.com/2015/06/04/inside-the-factory-of-one-russias-greatest-exports-not-vodka-the-ak-31-hq-photos/

KoTeMoRe wrote:

flamming_python wrote:With the foregrip the muzzle-break compensator is less needed, albeit will still probably be fitted for standard army rifles I'm almost sure (which prob. won't have the foregrip)

This photo shows an experimental set-up I'm guessing, or one optimized for short-range urban fighting.

The muzzle brake is always needed (in this case as a flash hider) because of the inherent linearity it provides to the kinetic sequence when firing. Furthermore these are the full kits, one can use the grip at one's discretion, albeit the rail would also pose an issue for the GP-25/30 complement anyway, grip or not.

I must say who ever photographed the buttstock did an horrible job last time, since this one is by far more polished. It still is an UAS inspired product, but at a far lesser cost. All in all I must revise my opinion, it isn't bad. Zenitco will have to lobby the troops diffrently to have them pick its products. These seem perfect for the conscript masses. 8/10 would hit with small discount.

Full post btw: http://thebrigade.com/2015/06/04/inside-the-factory-of-one-russias-greatest-exports-not-vodka-the-ak-31-hq-photos/

I meant specifically a muzzle-break compensator, which serves to shoot out the gases through 3 holes into an upper-right direction relative to the muzzle; thus creating a counteraction to the natural recoil of the AK-series rifles which tends to move the rifle into that same direction.
All standard military-issue AK-74/AK-74M rifles have one fitted.

I did notice the flash-supressor, but it's a rather different beast and won't do much to stabilize the rifle on automatic fire (?).

The muzzle brake is always needed

If you look at the AKS-74U carbines such those used by the police or by tankers; they don't have a muzzle-break at all - they're designed for use at closer-range, and more as something like submachine guns really.

This is why I suspect that this variant is also a similar close-range one. I would say that it would be intended for tankers or vehicle crews; but the EOTech sights would probably be wasted on them - so maybe FSB or MVD VV use? Dunno.

flamming_python wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

flamming_python wrote:With the foregrip the muzzle-break compensator is less needed, albeit will still probably be fitted for standard army rifles I'm almost sure (which prob. won't have the foregrip)

This photo shows an experimental set-up I'm guessing, or one optimized for short-range urban fighting.

The muzzle brake is always needed (in this case as a flash hider) because of the inherent linearity it provides to the kinetic sequence when firing. Furthermore these are the full kits, one can use the grip at one's discretion, albeit the rail would also pose an issue for the GP-25/30 complement anyway, grip or not.

I must say who ever photographed the buttstock did an horrible job last time, since this one is by far more polished. It still is an UAS inspired product, but at a far lesser cost. All in all I must revise my opinion, it isn't bad. Zenitco will have to lobby the troops diffrently to have them pick its products. These seem perfect for the conscript masses. 8/10 would hit with small discount.

Full post btw: http://thebrigade.com/2015/06/04/inside-the-factory-of-one-russias-greatest-exports-not-vodka-the-ak-31-hq-photos/

I meant specifically a muzzle-break compensator, which serves to shoot out the gases through 3 holes into an upper-right direction relative to the muzzle; thus creating a counteraction to the natural recoil of the AK-series rifles which tends to move the rifle into that same direction.
All standard military-issue AK-74/AK-74M rifles have one fitted.

This is a muzzle brake:


This is a muzzle brake as well with the pinch points that help stabilize the expanding gasses from the "flash-hider".


This is also a muzzle brake:


It isn't because ONE product has been mass-fielded that it is the only solution. BTW the current MB from the 74M is greatly inferior to most SRVV products .

Once again the cost is a factor and clearly the SRVV while great, just can't be economical enough to be worth the change.
Yet the AK12 has an SRVV inspired MB.


Bonus: UAS buttstock on operative's 74M.

I did notice the flash-supressor, but it's a rather different beast and won't do much to stabilize the rifle on automatic fire (?).

Actually it is and this is a unified variant that would probabaly go on both AKM's and 74's.

The muzzle brake is always needed

If you look at the AKS-74U carbines such those used by the police or by tankers; they don't have a muzzle-break at all - they're designed for use at closer-range, and more as something like submachine guns really.

This is why I suspect that this variant is also a similar close-range one. I would say that it would be intended for tankers or vehicle crews; but the EOTech sights would probably be wasted on them - so maybe FSB or MVD VV use? Dunno.

There is a muzzle brake on the 74U. It's just most people call it a flash hider because they don't understand how it works. The EOTech isn't included. Plus there are enough Obzors and Rakurses and PKA's in the Russian military that you wouldn't need those anyway.

Kalashnikov will present on Armia-2015 forum new products


"Among the new products for the first time demonstrate the combat unit remotely controlled in different versions: mounted on the armored vehicle heavy class family" Typhoon "and a boat BC-16. We consider it a very promising direction, and gradually moving in the development of this segment. The unique format of the forum" The Army -2015 "will not only tell you about our latest developments, but also to show them in action," - said General Director of Concern Aleksey Krivoruchko.

He noted that the company will present at the forum a number of completely new rifle products and products of other promising segments - drones, modern landing craft and protection of personnel.

According to the press service, the new products include small arms, "Kalashnikov" will introduce the latest version of the AK-12 and civilian carbine with combat development potential - AK-15, established this year on a platform of "Saiga" MK-107.

"Kalashnikov" introduce drones and landing craft on display in Moscow

In addition, the group will first firing capabilities of the new pistol caliber 9x19, created with the assistance of trainers Special Purpose Center of the Russian FSB. "Ergonomics weapons designed to suit the characteristics of human biomechanics", - the press-service.

Among the upgraded models of small arms will be presented SVDM sniper rifle and AK-74M with the upgrade kit, allowing 1.5 times increase the effectiveness of the combat use of weapons by the criterion of "the frequency of destruction" at a distance of up to 300 meters at any time of day and in different climatic conditions. Universal upgrade kit, first introduced on May 9 Victory Day parade in Moscow, can be installed on any Kalashnikov rifle, as well as civilian carbines manufacturing concern.

As part of the joint exposition of concern "Kalashnikov" show specimens of modern landing craft type BC-10 and BC-16 unmanned aerial vehicles (BLA0 helicopter and aircraft type, modern body armor Armed helms and different class of protection.

SVD-M

It seems we are confusing three very different but related things.

For clarity... there is a compensator, a muzzle brake, and a flash hider.

The muzzle attachment on the AKM is a compensator as it directs the muzzle blast up and to the right to push the muzzle down and to the left to compensate for the recoil of of the rifle on your right shoulder. It does not reduce muzzle flash and does not reduce felt recoil by directing gas backwards.

the muzzle attachment on the AKS-74U is a flash hider recoil booster and is designed to reduce the muzzle flash and to increase recoil pressure to ensure the mechanism cycles properly despite the very short barrel.

the muzzle attachment on the old SVD is a flash hider and compensator, but not a muzzle brake... it is supposed to reduce muzzle flash and to redirect the gas to reduce muzzle climb, but it does not direct the gas back to reduce recoil.

The muzzle attachment on the AK-74 reduces recoil by redirecting the muzzle blast backwards and there are holes in the top to compensate for the muzzle rise during recoil, but it does nothing to reduce muzzle flash.

So to recap...

AKM             =   compensator but not brake or flash hider.
AKS-74U       =   Flash Hider but not compensator or brake.
SVD             =   Flash Hider and compensator but not brake.
AKS-74        =   Compensator and brake but not flash hider.

There is a muzzle brake on the 74U. It's just most people call it a flash hider because they don't understand how it works.

The muzzle attachment on the AKS-74U is not a muzzle brake... it is a flash hider and recoil booster.

BTW the current MB from the 74M is greatly inferior to most SRVV products

Shock horror.... 40 year old Soviet muzzle brake design inferior to current products... have you told CNN yet?

I have both the AKS-74U type muzzle attachment and the AKM type attachment and the AK-74 muzzle attachment for my AK and I prefer the latter.

I have not tried the other SRVV models, but I don't care if they do a "better" job... the one I am using now does a good enough job for me.

"Among the new products for the first time demonstrate the combat unit remotely controlled in different versions: mounted on the armored vehicle heavy class family" Typhoon "and a boat BC-16. We consider it a very promising direction, and gradually moving in the development of this segment. The unique format of the forum" The Army -2015 "will not only tell you about our latest developments, but also to show them in action," - said General Director of Concern Aleksey Krivoruchko.

A remote weapon station demonstrated... that will be cool...

i wonder if they will reveal more about the VS-121 bullpup sniper rifle...

GarryB wrote:It seems we are confusing three very different but related things.

For clarity... there is a compensator, a muzzle brake, and a flash hider.

The muzzle attachment on the AKM is a compensator as it directs the muzzle blast up and to the right to push the muzzle down and to the left to compensate for the recoil of of the rifle on your right shoulder. It does not reduce muzzle flash and does not reduce felt recoil by directing gas backwards.

Generally we're speaking about muzzle devices. They can have multiple cumulative effects. The slant brake does reduce flash. Far more so than the no-device option. The quality of that is attested by many muzzle device tests out there.
Having shot a Type 56/2 and Albanian Tp-72 without muzzle devices and horrendous sights during MS, the kick is clearly noticeable when firing anything equipped with a MB/MD.

the muzzle attachment on the AKS-74U is a flash hider recoil booster and is designed to reduce the muzzle flash and to increase recoil pressure to ensure the mechanism cycles properly despite the very short barrel.

The secondary "gas chamber" on the 74u is indeed a mean to smooth transit and reduce further the recoil. For that effect true 74U have two pinches on the sides of the said muzzle device that provide side compensation. Fake Tapco ones don't have those two cuts. The results are funny. Once. Try firing the numerous "Dracos" without the proprietary device.

the muzzle attachment on the old SVD is a flash hider and compensator, but not a muzzle brake... it is supposed to reduce muzzle flash and to redirect the gas to reduce muzzle climb, but it does not direct the gas back to reduce recoil.

Tomatos, tomatoes, Tomatoruuu. The purpose is the same, it brakes the recoil kick. That's why it is called "muzzle brake".

The muzzle attachment on the AK-74 reduces recoil by redirecting the muzzle blast backwards and there are holes in the top to compensate for the muzzle rise during recoil, but it does nothing to reduce muzzle flash.

It brakes the flux and stabilizes the round flight path...das ist Muzzle Brake.

So to recap...

AKM             =   compensator but not brake or flash hider.
AKS-74U       =   Flash Hider but not compensator or brake.
SVD             =   Flash Hider and compensator but not brake.
AKS-74        =   Compensator and brake but not flash hider.

There is a muzzle brake on the 74U. It's just most people call it a flash hider because they don't understand how it works.

The muzzle attachment on the AKS-74U is not a muzzle brake... it is a flash hider and recoil booster.

BTW the current MB from the 74M is greatly inferior to most SRVV products

Shock horror.... 40 year old Soviet muzzle brake design inferior to current products... have you told CNN yet?

I have both the AKS-74U type muzzle attachment and the AKM type attachment and the AK-74 muzzle attachment for my AK and I prefer the latter.

I have not tried the other SRVV models, but I don't care if they do a "better" job... the one I am using now does a good enough job for me.

Opinion, not more relevant than mine on the matter. However the Guys with C on their backs do call the 74U style device Muzzle Brake. I'll stick with my definition. However the SRVV Jet's or Zaslon's are better and that's a fact. However just a small catch. There are 6 different styles of 74 MB's the variations. Most of them have to do with thickness of the device and overall length.

The slant brake does reduce flash.

I have fired the rifle both with and without the slant device and it had zero effect on the muzzle flash. On handling the effect was rather noticeable as without the compensator the barrel noticeably rose up and  moved to the right. When fitted with the compensator the movement was much less pronounced... so it works as a compensator but not as a flash hider or muzzle brake.

The secondary "gas chamber" on the 74u is indeed a mean to smooth transit and reduce further the recoil.

The muzzle device on the AKS-74U is intended to reduce muzzle flash and to boost pressure in the reduced length gas system... try one without the muzzle device and you will get horrendous muzzle flash and more stoppages....

On my Type 56S recoil was increased over the standard AK-74 muzzle brake.

For that effect true 74U have two pinches on the sides of the said muzzle device that provide side compensation.

Directing a small amount of gas sideways does not reduce recoil... having the front plate with a hole for the bullet to pass through to deflect the gas backwards as on the AK-74 muzzle brake reduces recoil by directing some gas backwards to actually counter recoil... the negative result is it is much louder and less comfortable for people standing beside you.

Tomatos, tomatoes, Tomatoruuu. The purpose is the same, it brakes the recoil kick. That's why it is called "muzzle brake".

A compensator will redirect the gas force to stabilise the barrel, a muzzle brake actually reduces recoil by directing gas force backwards. they are different things.

It brakes the flux and stabilizes the round flight path...das ist Muzzle Brake.

The rifling in the barrel stabilises the round... the two holes in the top of the AK-74 muzzle brake counter muzzle rise... that part is a compensator, the large side holes at the front where gas that was going forward is directed backwards and sideways reduces felt recoil and is therefore a brake.

However the SRVV Jet's or Zaslon's are better and that's a fact.

Well the best muzzle attachment for my AK is a suppressor... that is a fact too.

My brother was in the New Zealand Airforce and the New Zealand Army and he calls an FN Minimi a C7 or something... because that is what they called it... 

Question:

If the AK-12's cyclic rate of fire was increased to 850-900 [like the AK-107], would that have an impact on its reliability? I'm thinking that it would only heat up more and wear down its part a lot quicker. Am I right? I'm clearly a novice, but I figure if I don't ask questions, I won't ever find out.

If the AK-12's cyclic rate of fire was increased to 850-900 [like the AK-107], would that have an impact on its reliability? I'm thinking that it would only heat up more and wear down its part a lot quicker. Am I right? I'm clearly a novice, but I figure if I don't ask questions, I won't ever find out.

All guns move around as they fire... firing faster means more force to move them around, though it does mean more bullets in a short burst.

If we look at the experience of the M16 in Vietnam, a rifle that was developed with a specific type of ammo using very new clean burning powder, turned out to be rather a dog when the ammo was changed to older less clean burning but cheaper and available powder. The change in powder led to a higher rate of fire, for which the components were not designed for, and the older powder left rather more residue in the rifle, which meant the rifles needed to be cleaned. The original powder was so clean that the rifle was not issued with a cleaning kit and the soldiers who were issued the rifle were told it did not need to be cleaned... so they didn't.

The result of the higher rate of fire was much shorter life span for parts which started breaking, and a build up of residue that hardened and jammed the weapon if not cleaned.

When issued to special forces who looked after their weapons anyway they had the breakages and some jamming, but nothing like the grunts...

Having said all that if you design the rifle to fire at a higher rate of fire with components designed to take the extra stress then it should be fine.

Thanks a million, Garry.

Pretty cool video:

More modifications of the AK-12 on display and on the range: