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Indian Air Force (IAF): News

GarryB

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Post n°401

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

GarryB Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:37 am

Primary target is Pakistani radars but Rudra - M3 can actually snipe Chinese HQ-9, S-400 class Early Warning and Fire Control radars from a distance.

Obvious problem there is that the S-400 can shoot down anti radiation missiles... so can BUK and Pantsir and TOR... and the new S-350 are specifically designed for that job too.

P-500 Bazalt designed from the early 1960's had a active-radar head with home-on-jam ability, and it's range was 550km. lol1 It's deepest modernization, P-1000 Vulkan had a range of 700km, and was further modified to hit at 1000km.

Actually the 500km range Kh-22M and the 800km range Kh-32 carried by the Tu-22M3 would be better examples of weapons that would be used for SEAD and other enemy air defence suppression mission... the obvious issue is that HATO doesn't really have any ground based IADS to speak of... their IADS is based on AWACS and JSTARS and fighter aircraft as well as inflight refuelling aircraft and jamming aircraft too.

India test fire Rudram antiradar missile in Oktober 2020. Missile have weight of 600 kg and max range to 250 km. Max speed is up to mach 2. It is still in process of testing, not in armament.

So half the speed of the 80s era Kh-58...

@magnumcromagnon and @RTN... seems you two are full of spit and vinegar.... are you going to need to be sent to your rooms like little kids, or do you think you can be grown ups about this... your call... but be very careful about which way you want to go.

Sujoy

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Post n°402

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Sujoy Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:39 am

medo wrote:Kh-58 missile have weight of 650 kg and range up to 250 km (depend on version). This missile with 1,6 tons is in class of cruise missiles, so i don't think it is version of Kh-58.

Kh-58 is not as heavy as this upcoming Indian missile but Kh-58 is still a cruise missile.

GarryB wrote:Obvious problem there is that the S-400 can shoot down anti radiation missiles... so can BUK and Pantsir and TOR... and the new S-350 are specifically designed for that job too.

The only way to target SAMs like S-400, HQ-9, PAC-3 is anti radiation missile (assuming Special Forces are not send). So basically a few dozen anti radiation missiles will have to be fired to overwhelm the SAMs radar.

GarryB wrote:So half the speed of the 80s era Kh-58...

Because it is much heavier than the Kh-58.

GarryB

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Post n°403

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

GarryB Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:27 am

Kh-58 is not as heavy as this upcoming Indian missile but Kh-58 is still a cruise missile.

No, it is a mach 4 pure rocket powered anti radiation missile... perhaps you are confusing it with the Kh-59 and Kh-59M family of Kazoo and Kingbolt, which are turbojet powered TV and radar guided cruise missiles... (AS-13 and AS-18).

The only way to target SAMs like S-400, HQ-9, PAC-3 is anti radiation missile (assuming Special Forces are not send). So basically a few dozen anti radiation missiles will have to be fired to overwhelm the SAMs radar.

The only way to reliably do it at the moment would be hypersonic manouvering missile... preferably with a nuclear warhead to take out the entire site.

A dozen anti radiation missiles could be shot down easily using one old model BUK battery anywhere along the 400km path to the target S-400 battery location.

In fact standard BUK can take down 24 targets at once so it could shoot down 2 dozen in one go...

Because it is much heavier than the Kh-58.

The point is that the Kh-58 is not fast enough to evade top standard enemy air defences, so going half the speed gives the target more time.

To be clear this new Indian missile might be quite good, but claiming it is the solution to S-400 level missile systems... well you might want to sell some to the west because they are looking at enormous drone swarms as their only chance to overwhelm Russian air defences...

Of the currently available weapons Russia is currently counting on Iskander missiles to deal with enemy Patriot and THAAD batteries near the front line... now the INF treaty no longer exists I am sure it will be further developed into a longer ranged missile system. Kinzhal is effectively a 2,000km range mach 10 air launched Iskander...

BTW at 1.6 tons this new Indian missile is basically the same weight as the Kh-15 short range attack missile... its range was about 500km at mach 5 but it only came with a nuclear warhead which is why it was withdrawn from service.

Sujoy

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Post n°404

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Sujoy Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:20 am

GarryB wrote:No, it is a mach 4 pure rocket powered anti radiation missile... perhaps you are confusing it with the Kh-59 and Kh-59M family of Kazoo and Kingbolt, which are turbojet powered TV and radar guided cruise missiles... (AS-13 and AS-18).

So basically you are saying that rocket powered missiles cannot be described as cruise missiles because cruise missiles are powered by jets, isn't it?

GarryB wrote:The only way to reliably do it at the moment would be hypersonic manouvering missile... preferably with a nuclear warhead to take out the entire site.

A dozen anti radiation missiles could be shot down easily using one old model BUK battery anywhere along the 400km path to the target S-400 battery location.

S-400 regiments will be protected by EW units, mobile decoys and IR/optical masking aerosol and camo-nets (apart from Pantsir, BUK and Tor).

Assuming somehow the hypersonic cruise missile is able to evade the hard kill systems (Pantsir, Tor, BUK, Verba) but how will it evade the soft skill systems - EW decoys, IR masking etc?

Sujoy

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Post n°405

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Sujoy Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:48 am

GarryB wrote:BTW at 1.6 tons this new Indian missile is basically the same weight as the Kh-15 short range attack missile... its range was about 500km at mach 5 but it only came with a nuclear warhead which is why it was withdrawn from service.

Details about the warhead has not been made public but it's going to be a conventional one.

In any case conventional warhead technology has not made much improvement in any country, unlike seeker technology.

Pinto likes this post

GarryB

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Post n°406

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

GarryB Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:04 am

So basically you are saying that rocket powered missiles cannot be described as cruise missiles because cruise missiles are powered by jets, isn't it?

Actually the first AS-13 Kingbolt used a rocket motor, so no, but generally a cruise missile has a wing aerofoil and flys a non ballistic flight path trajectory...

Rocket powered missiles, unless they are rather large like the Kh-22 and Kh-22M or Kh-32 generally have a rather short range.

Cruise missiles generally have jet engines including ramjet and scramjet motors, but solid fuelled rocket powered missiles are not normally called cruise missiles.

As I say there are liquid fuelled rockets with wings like the Kh-22 and Kh-22M and Kh-32 but they are called anti ship missiles.

Cruise missile is generally a low flying subsonic missile with a jet engine and wings.

Kh-58 has no wings and is rocket powered missile... in fact it is called an ARM... or anti radiation missile... note no cruise missile term there.

Assuming somehow the hypersonic cruise missile is able to evade the hard kill systems (Pantsir, Tor, BUK, Verba) but how will it evade the soft skill systems - EW decoys, IR masking etc?

Depends how it targets... it might attack a geographical location... ie coordinates. It might have some other way of finding its target or perhaps several ways... radar, IIR,...

Details about the warhead has not been made public but it's going to be a conventional one.

The Kh-15 was designed to be used by strategic bombers during WWIII and not in conventional wars. Its purpose was to bash the way through enemy air defences... so a group of interceptor fighters takes off and starts approaching the bombers this mach 5 missile is launched and detonates a large nuclear warhead in amongst the interceptors on their way up. A SAM site lights up and starts tracking the bombers a missile is launched to detonate and wipe out the entire SAM battery with a big nuke...

It is not intended for conventional conflicts.

In any case conventional warhead technology has not made much improvement in any country, unlike seeker technology.

There are an enormous range of conventional warheads that could be used that could crater runways or kill groups of tanks or hit hardened bunkers etc etc...

Sujoy

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Post n°407

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Sujoy Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:11 am

GarryB wrote:Depends how it targets... it might attack a geographical location... ie coordinates. It might have some other way of finding its target or perhaps several ways... radar, IIR,...

Co-ordinates in this case refers to what, the location of the S-400 unit?

IR decoys will take care of IIR homing. Radar guidance will face jamming. So with these accompanying soft kill measures S-400 or any other similar SAM unit will be difficult to target.

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°408

China calculation: More Rafale fighters bound for Ladakh

Tsavo Lion Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:01 am

China calculation: More Rafale fighters bound for Ladakh
New Delhi eager to send latest batch of advanced fighter planes to the contested border conflict with China

Isos

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Post n°409

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Isos Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:10 am

Tsavo Lion wrote:China calculation: More Rafale fighters bound for Ladakh
New Delhi eager to send latest batch of advanced fighter planes to the contested border conflict with China

Pretty stupid. They only received them with minimal training.

They better send experienced mig-29 pilots there with their mig-29.

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°410

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Tsavo Lion Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:13 am

Now they'll train where they r likely to fight, "on the job".

Isos

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Post n°411

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Isos Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:18 am

Tsavo Lion wrote:Now they'll train where they r likely to fight, "on the job".

And where a war is more likely to start. They will start with a jet not mastered against an overwhelming chinese air force.

They need to place mig 29 there and buy another 100 of them quickly.

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°412

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Tsavo Lion Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:22 am

I'm sure they trained enough pilots already in France &/ in India on trainers; they can to train the rest of them in India.

Sujoy

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Post n°413

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Sujoy Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:26 am

Tsavo Lion wrote:I'm sure they trained enough pilots already in France &/ in India on trainers; they can to train the rest of them in India.

Most (not all) Rafale fighter pilots of the Indian Air Force were previously Mirage 2000 pilots. Rafale is simply an upgrade of the Mirage 2000. So IAF pilots have had enough training.

RTN

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Post n°414

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

RTN Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:46 am

Isos wrote:They need to place mig 29 there and buy another 100 of them quickly.

Russia can no longer upgrade Indian Mig 29s. Whatever upgrade was possible has already been carried out.

For example, new engines, avionics and maybe even weapons cannot be integrated on the Mig 29 UPG. Therefore, it makes sense to deploy the Rafale. But India doesn't have the number.

Isos

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Post n°415

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Isos Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:28 am

RTN wrote:

Isos wrote:They need to place mig 29 there and buy another 100 of them quickly.

Russia can no longer upgrade Indian Mig 29s. Whatever upgrade was possible has already been carried out.

For example, new engines, avionics and maybe even weapons cannot be integrated on the Mig 29 UPG. Therefore, it makes sense to deploy the Rafale. But India doesn't have the number.

You can always upgrade a fighter as long as you put the money. But that's not my point. I am talking about deploying a mastered fighter instead of few new arrived that they are just learning how to use it.

Most (not all) Rafale fighter pilots of the Indian Air Force were previously Mirage 2000 pilots. Rafale is simply an upgrade of the Mirage 2000. So IAF pilots have had enough training.

No it's not.

I'm sure they trained enough pilots already in France &/ in India on trainers; they can to train the rest of them in India.

There is training to learn the aircraft which is quick and then you have to train to use them within your airforce and exploit all its capacities. You need to reinvent the strategy employed. Just like russian air force is doing with su-57/S-70 which changes their tactics compared to su-30/35.

Sujoy

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Post n°416

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Sujoy Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:49 am

Isos wrote:No it's not.

Granted that Rafale has twice the capabilities of the Mirage 2000. But it is performing the role that was previously assigned to the Mirage 2000 by the French Air Force. Compared to the Mirage 2000, the major enhancement has been in the air to air attack capability of the Rafale.

Moreover, Indian Air force pilots have been training in France on the Rafale for the last 5 years.

Isos

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Post n°417

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Isos Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:43 pm

Sujoy wrote:

Isos wrote:No it's not.

Granted that Rafale has twice the capabilities of the Mirage 2000. But it is performing the role that was previously assigned to the Mirage 2000 by the French Air Force. Compared to the Mirage 2000, the major enhancement has been in the air to air attack capability of the Rafale.

Moreover, Indian Air force pilots have been training in France on the Rafale for the last 5 years.

No you are wrong.

Rafale replaces Mirage-2000 (C, D, N) but also mirage f1 and super etandard. 1 rafale can do all the missions those aircraft did at the same time ( recco, anti air, anti ship, air defence, close air support, ground attack, patrol, carrier ops...).

It's not an upgraded Mirage but a totally new aircraft. Even its flight caracteristics are new because none of the former aircraft had canards.

Upgraded Mirages are mirage 2000-5. Rafale is another level.

Indians will need some years to master it and use it efficiently. Actually that will never happen. They have so much different aircraft that they will most likely opperate alone or with mirages only. We saw how poorly the mirages were conected to the su-30mki and mig-21 last time.

Rafale will be even worse since they are bought without indian equipement inside.

Sujoy

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Post n°418

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Sujoy Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:38 pm

Isos wrote:
No you are wrong.

Rafale replaces Mirage-2000 (C, D, N) but also mirage f1 and super etandard. 1 rafale can do all the missions those aircraft did at the same time ( recco, anti air, anti ship, air defence, close air support, ground attack, patrol, carrier ops...).

It's not an upgraded Mirage but a totally new aircraft. Even its flight caracteristics are new because none of the former aircraft had canards.

Upgraded Mirages are mirage 2000-5. Rafale is another level.

Already mentioned, that Rafale has twice the capability of a Mirage 2000. The point I was making was related to the training of IAF pilots on the Rafale. I said that the initial batch of Rafale fighter pilots are those who were previously with the Mirage 2000 squadrons. This is not to suggest that these Mirage 2000 pilots do not fly other fighter aircraft.

Re canards, SU 30MKI also has canards so IAF pilots do have the experience of flying such aircraft.

IAF has set up 2 fully-fledged Rafale training centres with Level D simulators.

The IAF is also linking its Rafale simulators at Ambala and Hashimara with its Mirage 2000 simulators, thereby affording it the ability to undertake training in live, synthetic and blended environments for the first time.

The scope of training contracted for by the Air Force, is thought to include 27 pilots, 146 technicians and two engineers. Dassault Aviation also proposed to undertake advanced training for three pilots, one engineer and six technicians.

Isos wrote: They have so much different aircraft that they will most likely opperate alone or with mirages only. We saw how poorly the mirages were conected to the su-30mki and mig-21 last time.

Since then hundreds of software defined radios have been imported. https://swarajyamag.com/insta/iaf-to-equip-its-fighter-aircraft-with-400-israeli-made-software-defined-radios-in-bid-to-ensure-secure-communication

The Su 30MKI are already datalinked, they have the Polyot which allows flights of Flankers to share targeting information, designate, attack. However, IAF is now standardizing on it's new Operational Data Link, Israeli hardware/Indian software, a far more advanced system.

Isos wrote:Rafale will be even worse since they are bought without indian equipement inside.

14 Indian Specific Enhancements (ISE), were integrated on all 36 aircraft

Sujoy

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Post n°419

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Sujoy Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:52 pm

Isos wrote:You can always upgrade a fighter as long as you put the money. But that's not my point. I am talking about deploying a mastered fighter instead of few new arrived that they are just learning how to use it.

There are no such offers from Russia on the table. Given that even the airframe of its successor the Mig 35 is new it's quite likely that engines meant for the Mig 35 will not fit on the Indian Mig 29UPG.

Maybe the radar of the Mig 29UPG can be upgraded to an AESA radar. But no major upgrades in sight. Maybe because large scale upgrade of the Mig 29 is not possible.

Isos

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Post n°420

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Isos Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:47 pm

Again you are confusing training to learn the aircraft with training to learn how to use it.

First is quick. 2nd takes years specially when you have 6 or 7 type of aircraft in your air force and Dassault or French air force can't help.

Radio is useless. Modern jets with datalinks allow to guide missiles launched by other plateforms.

Su-30K datalink could connect sukhoi but also control mig-29s. Your MKI seems to be a regression over the K version you had.

Indian datalinks is really bad if we see how they failed against pakistan. Mirages didn't know what was going, mig-21 wasn't aware of the enemy positions and MKI stayed away because they saw everything but were of no help to other jets.

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°421

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Tsavo Lion Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:31 pm

If Israeli pilots & AF could get F-35s combat ready that fast, the Indian pilots & AF can get the Rafales combat ready faster than u think.

GarryB

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Post n°422

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

GarryB Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:03 am

Given that even the airframe of its successor the Mig 35 is new it's quite likely that engines meant for the Mig 35 will not fit on the Indian Mig 29UPG.

The new engines used in the MiG-35 is related to the engines used in the MiG-29SMT and should be completely compatible... there was no reason to make them not compatible.

The new MiGs use a different fabrication method and have different airframe shells, but that creates more internal space, not less.

Maybe the radar of the Mig 29UPG can be upgraded to an AESA radar. But no major upgrades in sight. Maybe because large scale upgrade of the Mig 29 is not possible.

India has shown it does not like spending money on Russian gear, AESA radars for the 80-90 odd MiGs they currently have would be hard to justify based on the immaturity of the technology and therefore minor improvement in performance for a substantial cost and potential teething issues.

AF can get the Rafales combat ready faster than u think.

Have they got them all yet?

Sujoy

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Post n°423

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Sujoy Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:38 am

GarryB wrote:The new engines used in the MiG-35 is related to the engines used in the MiG-29SMT and should be completely compatible... there was no reason to make them not compatible.

The new MiGs use a different fabrication method and have different airframe shells, but that creates more internal space, not less.

What are the various technologies from the Mig 35, Su 35 that can be integrated on the Indian Mig 29UPG?

Russia has not made any such offer for upgrade.

GarryB wrote:India has shown it does not like spending money on Russian gear

Maybe that's why, India is spending US$ 125 million for a Su 30MKI and US$ 50 million for a Mig 29.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/after-tejas-india-moves-ahead-to-procure-more-mig-29s-sukhois/articleshow/80320199.cms

RTN

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Post n°424

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

RTN Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:16 pm

Isos wrote:And where a war is more likely to start. They will start with a jet not mastered against an overwhelming chinese air force.

Indian pilots are nowhere as well trained as USAF pilots or maybe even Russian AF pilots. That's one reason why India opts for tandem seat fighter aircrafts like the Su 30MKI.

That being said the PLA-Air Force doesn't have much experience of war fighting either. What they have in their favor (compared to India) are far more fighter aircraft and SAM systems.

Isos wrote:They need to place mig 29 there and buy another 100 of them quickly.

Even the 20 odd Mig 29s that India is buying are mothballed Mig 29s. Does Russia even have 100 plus Mig 29s that they can sell? Doubt that.

Isos

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Post n°425

Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Isos Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:32 pm

That being said the PLA-Air Force doesn't have much experience of war fighting either. What they have in their favor (compared to India) are far more fighter aircraft and SAM systems.

For launching missiles you don't need experience.

Even the 20 odd Mig 29s that India is buying are mothballed Mig 29s. Does Russia even have 100 plus Mig 29s that they can sell? Doubt that.

They still produce mig-29M.

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