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    Indian Air Force (IAF): News

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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Rafale is a nice fighter, but it is not worth three or four Su-35s.

    Not to mention that Rafale is inferior to Indian Su-30 or Russian Su-35.

    Delta-wing, cylindrical hull, and only one vertical tail means the eurocanard have inferior G-load and AoA to Su-27...37. Aerodynamic-wise, the eurocanards are essential MiG Ye-8 with a computer. Meanwhile Russia has already moved toward the standard set by MiG-25/31.

    Moreover, Su-27...37 have larger radar than Western one means better resolution and sensitivity, and Russian PESA can have the dynamic phased shift, unlike many Western ones.

    The reason why EU choose the outdated configuration of Ye-8 and MiG-21 is to reduce cost. But, thanks to the expensive manpower price of EU, the price of Eurocanards like Rafale and Typhoon is damn expensive as gold.

    I really suspect that the Rafale deal is one of the biggest corruption case of the Indian military.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:40 pm

    IMO Rafale is already an outdated fighter. Useless purchase.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:51 pm

    I think everyone is getting confused. It is the deal for Pak Fa. Apparently India is willing to forgo the 50/50 on it and spend more to get it quicker into service. Maybe they mean that and corrolate the Pak Fa as a 5th gen Su-35. Media is not entirely known for their military technicality.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:37 am

    I think you are being hard on the Rafale... it is a good aircraft, but I agree it is certainly not worth 174 million dollars per airframe even with local production...


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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:11 am

    yes, they seem to be mixing up the deals for the FFGA (PAK FA) and the deal for the Rafale.

    The Su-35 is not a 5th gen fighter and never will be.

    It reportedly uses early 5th gen avionics and systems, but that is in the Russian version, which wont be for export for anyone... except perhaps India if they want it.

    the Su-35 that China might buy wont be the same.

    Pretty much India has the best chance of getting the best Russia has to offer, but sometimes they wont even sell it to India.

    If that is a problem do what Jordan did with the RPGs or the UAE did with the Pantsir-S1 and decide on what you want to develop, what performance you expect and then start a joint venture with the Russians and pay for the technology yourself.


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    George1

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:07 pm

    The first modernized Indiaν MiG-29UPG began scheduled flights

    ricky123

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    Su-34 for india

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:10 am

    There is talk about Su34 for india . some say it is way better option then rafale . considering Su34 is a strike AC and has a longer range .
    can any1 confirm is india looking at the Su34 incase the rafale deal fails ?
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:27 am

    It would make a lot of sense since India is to retire their MiG-27's in 2017 and add in the fact that MiG-21's will be gone too, the Su-34's would fill two rolls as the Su-34's I believe have better air to air performance than MiG-21's and very strong air to ground to fill the MiG-27's roll.
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    TR1

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:31 am

    They have Su-30. Su-34 is pointless.

    ricky123

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:38 am

    TR1 wrote:They have Su-30. Su-34 is pointless.
    But Su30 is more of a Air superiority fighter no , which india already has a lot of them .MMRCA needed AC with Good A2G capabilities .i know Mig29 and Su30 also does A2G but Su34 has more Range and also has good A2A

    I am not a expert so i am just asking Embarassed

    ricky123

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:40 am

    also to ADD the Aircheif has said Rafale cannot be replaced by Su30mki cuz thier Roles are different . i thinking he was talking about the A2G capabilities that india needs right now .
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:58 am

    TR1 wrote:They have Su-30. Su-34 is pointless.

    Having multirole fighters makes getting dedicated tactical bombers pointless?

    Quick, someone tell the Russian AF..
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    TR1

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:06 am

    No comparison there- Russia produces both types domestically.

    India has spent much energy, effort and money setting up domestic Su-30 production.

    Su-34 does not offer nearly enough that India needs and that Su-30 cannot do itself, to justify complicating the fleet inventory so needlessly, not to mention spending the money to buy abroad.

    Plus, I have not heard of any serious Indian interest in the Su-34, and for good reason. It compromises its A2A role significantly for the gains as a bomber, and such would make no sense as a Rafale replacement.

    Su-30 can carry a larger payload, farther than the Rafale can in any case.
    Super-30 upgrade is overhauling the defensive suit entirely as well.
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    medo

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  medo on Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:27 am

    Su-30MKI with Litening targeting pod is no worse in A2G role than Rafale.

    ricky123

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:03 pm

    TR1 wrote:No comparison there- Russia produces both types domestically.

    India has spent much energy, effort and money setting up domestic Su-30 production.

    Su-34 does not offer nearly enough that India needs and that Su-30 cannot do itself, to justify complicating the fleet inventory so needlessly, not to mention spending the money to buy abroad.

    Plus, I have not heard of any serious Indian interest in the Su-34, and for good reason. It compromises its A2A role significantly for the gains as a bomber, and such would make no sense as a Rafale replacement.

    Su-30 can carry a larger payload, farther than the Rafale can in any case.
    Super-30 upgrade is overhauling the defensive suit entirely as well.

    Shiv aroor a Prominent journalist in his recent tweet confirmed that Russia indeed has offered Sukhoi-35 to India in case negotiation with France to purchase Dassault made Rafale fails to materialise before deadline. While he was able to confirm Russia’s offer but still there is no clarity about recent comments made by Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov that India and Russia have agreed to jointly build 5th-generation fighter aircraft based on Su-35.

    Deal or no deal on purchase of Rafale, Induction of additional air superiority aircrafts will not be easy for Indian air force since they will not be able to fill the gap left by failure to procure aircrafts under MMRCA requirements, which had asked for multi-role capable aircrafts. Indian air force chief in recently concluded Aero India air show made it clear that he want MMRCA aircrafts and it doesn’t have to be Rafale but certainly not additional Su-30 aircrafts. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said few months back that if Rafale deal doesn’t materialise there is always option to go for an upgraded Su-30 aircraft which can fulfill the requirements of Indian air force, what he basically meant was that Sukhoi-30 can be further optimized in its strike capability.

    With FGFA  already in the pipeline and Su-30 already in the fleet, induction of another Air superiority fighter aircraft will make Indian air force heavily tilted towards “Air superiority” roles and will diminish its strike attack capability . In case India decides to Induct another fighter aircraft from Sukhoi family rather then additional Su-30, it could be wise to actually induct Su-34 Strike bomber aircraft then Su-35. Case for Su-34 should be considered since IAF will be putting half of its Mig-27 strike aircrafts fleet in Reserve from this year on wards and in next 5 years remaining fleet will be pulled out of active duties and Jaguars will be only Strike aircrafts which will be left in the fleet.

    MMRCA contract  heavily favored Strike attack capability of aircrafts over Air superiority roles, in fact MMRCA requirement were born after current strike aircrafts (Jaguar and Mig-27) were found not suitable to carry out surgical strikes in high mountain terrain of Kargil sector in Kargil war with Pakistan, While Point defence aircrafts like Mig-21, when used against target in high mountains, failed to make any impact. It was Mirage-2000 aircrafts which came in handy to take out the target in difficult terrain. MMRCA requirements favoured aircraft with multi-role capability and scored high on strike capability of the aircraft.

    Su-34 is primarily designed for tactical operation against mobile and ground targets; aircraft has entirely new nose and forward fuselage giving it a distinctive look apart from Sukhoi-27/30 family. Aircraft also shares wing structure, tail, engine nacelles and canards with Su-30 family is also powered by same AL-31 engines. With 12 hard points, it can carry 12000 kgs of ordnance. With the help of front and rear mounted radars aircraft can fire R-73 missile from behind towards any chasing enemy aircraft without entering into a dogfight or turning the aircraft providing it enough self-protecting weapons suite and ability to multirole while still been in enemy airspace. Advantage of Su-34 over Su-35 is that aircraft is already in large scale production and eventually will replace close to 300 Su-24 ground attack aircrafts, while Su-35 along with Pak-Fa and Su-30SM will be inducted in equal numbers meaning smaller production runs of each aircraft types, making them more expensive .


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    RTN

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  RTN on Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:02 pm

    TR1 wrote:They have Su-30. Su-34 is pointless.

    Su 30 or Su 34 does not have a terrain following radar. The BARS ( in the SU 30) cannot even as yet do weather-mapping.

    http://www.niip.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8:2011-07-18-12-25-58&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8
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    RTN

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  RTN on Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:06 pm

    RTN wrote:
    TR1 wrote:They have Su-30. Su-34 is pointless.

    Su 30 or Su 34 does not have a terrain following radar. The BARS ( in the SU 30) cannot even as yet do weather-mapping.

    http://www.niip.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8:2011-07-18-12-25-58&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8

    This is why I suspect the Indians need the Rafale or an equivalent fighter. The RBE2 is by far the most advanced radar available in Europe.

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:11 pm

    RTN wrote:
    RTN wrote:
    TR1 wrote:They have Su-30. Su-34 is pointless.

    Su 30 or Su 34 does not have a terrain following radar. The BARS ( in the SU 30) cannot even as yet do weather-mapping.

    http://www.niip.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8:2011-07-18-12-25-58&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8

    This is why I suspect the Indians need the Rafale or an equivalent fighter. The RBE2 is by far the most advanced radar available in Europe.

    somehow i find it hard to beleave . anyways the upgrade Su30s could have that feature no ? and even Su34 is selected india will modify it to suit its needs and maybe put some israeli tech in them
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    RTN

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  RTN on Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:34 pm

    ricky123 wrote:somehow i find it hard to beleave .

    You find it hard to believe the manufacturer.... well that's your problem.


    ricky123 wrote:anyways the upgrade Su30s could have that feature no ?

    If upgrading Su-30 would have been the answer then why do you think the Indian AF still wants a MMRCA?


    ricky123 wrote:and even Su34 is selected india will modify it to suit its needs and maybe put some israeli tech in them

    Therefore, does it not make more sense to purchase an aircraft that already has all the features that the Air Force needs?
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    TR1

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:24 pm

    RTN wrote:
    TR1 wrote:They have Su-30. Su-34 is pointless.

    Su 30 or Su 34 does not have a terrain following radar. The BARS ( in the SU 30) cannot even as yet do weather-mapping.

    http://www.niip.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8:2011-07-18-12-25-58&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8

    lol. Su-34 certainly has terrain following.

    And your link does not work.
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    RTN

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  RTN on Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:19 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    lol. Su-34 certainly has terrain following.

    Su 30 certainly doesn't have a terrain following radar. Can you provide any images of a terrain following radar on the Su 34?
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:45 pm

    RTN wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    lol. Su-34 certainly has terrain following.

    Su 30 certainly doesn't have a terrain following radar. Can you provide any images of a terrain following radar on the Su 34?

    It's nose mounted Radar V004 is terrain following.
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    TR1

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:53 pm

    Literally every source lists it as terrain following too.

    Christ, even Su-24 had terrain following in its modernized forms, if a more rudimentary type.
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    TR1

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:58 pm

    And btw, even N-011 (not even N-011M with the phased array) had terrain following and avoidance modes programed in.

    So yes, Bars can do it as well.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:50 am

    Su 30 certainly doesn't have a terrain following radar. Can you provide any images of a terrain following radar on the Su 34?

    Terrain following is a radar mode... you don't need a specialised radar to perform that function.

    On the Su-24 there is a separate dedicated terrain following radar to scan the terrain ahead of the aircraft, with a separate air search radar to allow simultaneous terrain following flight while still allowing the detection and tracking of air targets.

    With a modern PESA or AESA you can can task radar elements to specific tasks where the radar elements along the lower front of the radar operate in a frequency and beam shape ideal for terrain mapping, while the middle and upper radar elements can be tasked with scanning for air targets.

    Infact with the electronic scanning you could interweave the frequency modulation and scan for both aerial targets including those below your own height and also scan the terrain ahead.


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