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    Russian Science: Discussion Thread

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    Werewolf
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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:50 am

    As Sa'iqa wrote:I've checked out International Science Ranking and in order to compare scientific output of various countries - and what I see is that the condition of science in Russia is rather poor.  In the period 1996-2012 Russian scientists published just 586.646 papers while those from Spain - a country with 4x smaller population - published 759.811. And Spain is by no means a scientific superpower. Tiny Switzerland with 8 mln. people published 395.703. The leader is of course the US with 7.063.329 documents.

    What should Russians do to improve their outlook?

    The question would be:

    What should polish people do to overcome the butthurted feelings towards russia?

    sepheronx
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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:07 am

    As Sa'iqa wrote:I've checked out International Science Ranking and in order to compare scientific output of various countries - and what I see is that the condition of science in Russia is rather poor.  In the period 1996-2012 Russian scientists published just 586.646 papers while those from Spain - a country with 4x smaller population - published 759.811. And Spain is by no means a scientific superpower. Tiny Switzerland with 8 mln. people published 395.703. The leader is of course the US with 7.063.329 documents.

    What should Russians do to improve their outlook?

    A troll, if I ever have seen one.

    www.marchmontnews.com

    check out the site. You will learn more.  Or you will ignore it and continue to troll like you normally do.  Best bet if you go off to mp.net and troll there.  You will fit in with the other Polish members who have a hard on for anything Russian related in hate.

    I will entertain the troll though so here I go:

    Reason why for lack of further development in the scientific field is that domestic industries are not really putting much faith and funding in the local sciences, as it will not churn out profit right then and there. Actually, it would end up costing a bit in short term in order to get production going. Long term though, it would have helped protect them from any faults in the economy due to pressure from outside. Luckily, universities and local institutions are more than happy to develop new age technologies, if the money was there. Here is a good article about it:

    http://marchmontnews.com/Technology-Innovation/North-West/20512-Nobel-Prize-winner-Alferov-sees-Russia-on-the-sidelines-global-technological-development.html
    The renowned scientist believes that the paramount problem that Russian science faces is low or no demand for results of scientific research from industry and society.

    Domestic demand needs to be high. With the time going by and pressure from west on Russia, this may create this demand and thus force Russia into investing new technologies. Either that, or just rehash Chinese science development. Although, I doubt that will happen.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:14 am; edited 1 time in total

    TR1
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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  TR1 on Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:13 am

    Alright take it easy guys.

    He posed a legitimate question.

    The issue is one sight ranking Russia lower than Spain, is not good proof that there is a big issue.
    There are other indicators where Russia clearly excels academically.


    Mindstorm, you wanna chime in on this?

    sepheronx
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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:15 am

    updated my post.

    Edit: just to add further:

    The problem with majority of Nanotechnology projects as of late, is creating a manufacturing/assembly line rather than actually creating new scientific discoveries, reason why, is that Rusnano and the like will not churn out a profit if they went the other way. What we see now, is small incubators and IT parks being set up, so that there can be some form of connection between the businesses and institutions to further scientific discoveries, with Rusnano placing some profit money into their development. There needs to be a good connection between the scientific discoveries, and the implementation of the use of said technologies. Out of all those scientific papers, how many of them actually end up as an end product? How many of them churn out a profit? I can bet you it isn't even half of the number of said papers. Hence why countries like Spain are not progressing economically, cause their scientific papers may not actually hold anything useful for the market. One can be like China, where they are producing scientific papers like crazy, but not actually producing anything new or useful. It ends up as a prestigious award for almost little benefit. I will admit that USA does it far better, where there is usually a scientific discovery/outbreak because there is some sort of market connection that will make use of said technologies. Universities (especially top ones) in USA are very connected to both private and state run companies whom use the universities as their R&D centers, while the companies deal with the manufacturing. This though, cannot be said about Russia. Which ultimately, is a problem and will continue to be one until companies in Russia look to the local universities to gain new technologies and fund them.

    The Russian universities have created some very interesting technologies in the past and recently as well. Projects end up dead cause no one invested in it.

    As Sa'iqa
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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:09 am

    lol
    Only now did I realize how weak Russian science is. I checked out the ranking for 2012 alone and what did I find? That in 2012 Poland published 31k of scientific papers while Russia published 38k - decline from 41k in 2011. Laughing Given Poland's growth (3x since 1996) I predict that in a few years Polish scientific output will exceed that of Russia. Shocked  Laughing 

    YEAH! Finally Laughing

    macedonian
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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  macedonian on Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:22 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:lol
    Only now did I realize how weak Russian science is. I checked out the ranking for 2012 alone and what did I find? That in 2012 Poland published 31k of scientific papers while Russia published 38k - decline from 41k in 2011. Laughing Given Poland's growth (3x since 1996) I predict that in a few years Polish scientific output will exceed that of Russia. Shocked  Laughing 

    YEAH! Finally Laughing

    It's good that I know a lot more Polish people and not just your sort.
    Poland does indeed have bright people, and I've met some of them personally, but it also has people like you...and...well - No offense, but you're not the sharpest tool in the box.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:30 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    As Sa'iqa wrote:lol
    Only now did I realize how weak Russian science is. I checked out the ranking for 2012 alone and what did I find? That in 2012 Poland published 31k of scientific papers while Russia published 38k - decline from 41k in 2011. Laughing Given Poland's growth (3x since 1996) I predict that in a few years Polish scientific output will exceed that of Russia. Shocked  Laughing 

    YEAH! Finally Laughing

    It's good that I know a lot more Polish people and not just your sort.
    Poland does indeed have bright people, and I've met some of them personally, but it also has people like you...and...well - No offense, but you're not the sharpest tool in the box.

    His avatar and the fact that he is one of the many poles who are so butthurt is already enough information to know he is just a hater without any knowledge.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:41 pm

    You are haters. You can't even tolerate my right to express my opinion, based on real tangible data.

    Yes, real data. You may give hundreds of links to scientific projects in Russia but it's called anectodal evidence and is not considered as representative. Statistical evidence is.

    The fact that the country (Russia) which created the first satellite, sent the first human into space, first probes to Mars and Venus and created the first rover to ever walk on the surface on another globe, has such a low scientific output that Poland (a country with circa 4x smaller population) produces almost as much should be the reason for shame for all Russia str00nk folks. Russians aren't dumber than Poles or Americans or whatever (the best Polish scientists work in the US anyway). "Something" is wrong with their country.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:24 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:You are haters. You can't even tolerate my right to express my opinion, based on real tangible data.

    Yes, real data. You may give hundreds of links to scientific projects in Russia but it's called anectodal evidence and is not considered as representative. Statistical evidence is.

    The fact that the country (Russia) which created the first satellite, sent the first human into space, first probes to Mars and Venus and created the first rover to ever walk on the surface on another globe, has such a low scientific output that Poland (a country with circa 4x smaller population) produces almost as much should be the reason for shame for all Russia str00nk folks. Russians aren't dumber than Poles or Americans or whatever (the best Polish scientists work in the US anyway). "Something" is wrong with their country.

    What did poland invent what we know today and than compare it with everything russia invented and you see who has FACTUAL bigger out put of scientific and technological innovations in the world.

    I can not recall a single invention made by poland that we should know off.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:39 pm

    Inventions are a small part of progress. Today almost all of technological progress happens by accumulation of small bits of knowledge that are then improved upon by other people.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  Viktor on Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:57 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:Inventions are a small part of progress. Today almost all of technological progress happens by accumulation of small bits of knowledge that are then improved upon by other people.

    So while you continue to write endless papers about small bits and pieces Russia is going after space, after nuclear technology, after nanotechnology

    after hypersonic speeds etc ... nice Very Happy

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:09 pm

    As are USA, Eu, China and Japan. All of them have the advantage of having more money and having companies willing to pay for research.


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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:17 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:As are USA, Eu, China and Japan. All of them have the advantage of having more money and having companies willing to pay for research.


    US, Japan, Germany,Brits,France and China make inventions we know today they do not just write paper work that is in most cases only theory and what exactly has poland bring to the scientific table?

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:25 pm

    I am not an expert in any field of scientific research. If you want to know, check out some scientific journals. In 2012 subjects with the highest number of papers published in Poland were: medicine (6430 papers) followed by physics (3995 papers) and biochemistry, genetics and molecular biology (3470 papers).

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:55 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:I am not an expert in any field of scientific research. If you want to know, check out some scientific journals. In 2012 subjects with the highest number of papers published in Poland were: medicine (6430 papers) followed by physics (3995 papers) and biochemistry, genetics and molecular biology (3470 papers).

    Does not matter how much Poland published papers, as long it is only papers and not technology nobody cares what poland does.

    When was the last time poland has published sientific papers that has changed anything, rather than making further studies based on someone elses prior fundamental work?

    Also like everyone knows, publishing something does not mean necessarily that it is right, most of them are theories and only minority of such work contain factual data to proof anything.

    Publishing paper work or actually making paper work in something real, big difference.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:33 pm

    How do you distinguish theoretic from practical knowledge?? Many things that are considered theoretical may have practical applications in 15-20 years. The entire subject of physics started as purely theoretical and then it found applications everywhere. Progress in medical sciences is based entirely on research papers.

    And what technology does Russia have? Do they have cutting edge research in medicine or cutting edge accelerators to use in physics research? CERN has, the US have them. Russia only has world class research in nuclear energy and arms industry. Science in Russia and it's closest allies (Belarus, Moldova) is stagnating. The number of papers published in Poland has tripled since 1996 and in Russia it stays pretty much the same.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  macedonian on Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:58 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:I am not an expert in any field of scientific research.
    ....

    You don't say...?!?
    Got me fooled...
     afro 

    Love your avatar by the way.
    Any chance for you to cheer for an INDEPENDENT Poland fighting for its own benefits, or are you fine with being 'one of the Emperor's servants'...merely fighting the others for his attention?

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:03 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:How do you distinguish theoretic from practical knowledge?? Many things that are considered theoretical may have practical applications in 15-20 years. The entire subject of physics started as purely theoretical and then it found applications everywhere. Progress in medical sciences is based entirely on research papers.

    And what technology does Russia have? Do they have cutting edge research in medicine or cutting edge accelerators to use in physics research? CERN has, the US have them. Russia only has world class research in nuclear energy and arms industry. Science in Russia and it's closest allies (Belarus, Moldova) is stagnating. The number of papers published in Poland has tripled since 1996 and in Russia it stays pretty much the same.

    Russia is leading the world in rocket technology, even NASA buys rocket engines from Russia and they send NASA astronauts in to space with the Russian Soyuz rocket...plus Russia had nearly twice as many rocket launches as NASA had in 2013 and Russia had more space launches than China, India, Ukraine, Japan, South Korea, and the European Union combined:



    ...And as aforementioned much of NASA's launches were due in part because of Russian rocket technology.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:18 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:How do you distinguish theoretic from practical knowledge?? Many things that are considered theoretical may have practical applications in 15-20 years. The entire subject of physics started as purely theoretical and then it found applications everywhere. Progress in medical sciences is based entirely on research papers.

    And what technology does Russia have? Do they have cutting edge research in medicine or cutting edge accelerators to use in physics research? CERN has, the US have them. Russia only has world class research in nuclear energy and arms industry. Science in Russia and it's closest allies (Belarus, Moldova) is stagnating. The number of papers published in Poland has tripled since 1996 and in Russia it stays pretty much the same.

    So what, is science all about papers published?
    Poland probably reformed its universities to a Western model, where it's all about papers, fancy cars, gold chains and whatever other bling, in the smoke & mirrors style of Western media and society in general - style over substance, all flash.

    But I wouldn't use any of it as an indicator of actual scientific output personally.

    You want Russian science output? Look at the S-500, PAK-FA, Angara, Rosatom, etc...

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:40 pm

    I mentioned arms and nuclear energy earlier. However, if you want to be a superpower or at least a regional powerhouse like Germany, you must have excellent research in as many fields as possible, not only in a selected few.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  Viktor on Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:46 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:I mentioned arms and nuclear energy earlier. However, if you want to be a superpower or at least a regional powerhouse like Germany, you must have excellent research in as many fields as possible, not only in a selected few.

    You speak to many words for someone who says that he knows little ....  Very Happy 

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:26 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:I mentioned arms and nuclear energy earlier. However, if you want to be a superpower or at least a regional powerhouse like Germany, you must have excellent research in as many fields as possible, not only in a selected few.

    Did you just really compared Germany as an "Regional Power" with bigger influence than Russia has on global stage?

    Germany is not even near of reach of Russia in any field, not scientific research, not leading in so many fields like you want to point out.

    Fact is, who finances the research of specific fields, are most times big companies who want to secure their income for short and long term. For example the absolute majority of scientific researches for the development of alternative energies comes from big Oil/Energy companies and not from independent sources or governments acting in the interest of their people.

    And many of such fields and researches are financed for own gain and interest. Pharmacy industries invest huge amount of money in "studies" that have the goal to show how innocent side effects are or how harmless some medicines and vaccines are, so they do not have any damage for their own image and sales.

    As long we live in a society where all big companies are private they will only research and develope for their own gain and not for the benefit of the collective.

    So how many papers they may publish have only a margin impact for the collectives benefit.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:33 pm

    I just want to know the ratio from each country on how many papers were made vs how many became practical use? Likes otgers said, many of them are not. China is producing more papers than anyone amd they are not farther head because of that. Unless they turn it into profit.

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:40 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:lol
    Only now did I realize how weak Russian science is. I checked out the ranking for 2012 alone and what did I find? That in 2012 Poland published 31k of scientific papers while Russia published 38k - decline from 41k in 2011. Laughing Given Poland's growth (3x since 1996) I predict that in a few years Polish scientific output will exceed that of Russia. Shocked  Laughing 

    YEAH! Finally Laughing

    That ought to tell you all you need to know about the value of such a metric.

    Not much value at all lol.

    And remember, for all your papers, Poland still cannot into space Sad .

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    Re: Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:21 am

    sepheronx wrote:I just want to know the ratio from each country on how many papers were made vs how many became practical use? Likes otgers said, many of them are not. China is producing more papers than anyone amd they are not farther head because of that. Unless they turn it into profit.
    hehe, number of papers published doesnt matter- its the number of citations each paper gets.

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