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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:55 pm

    Airbornewolf wrote:we in the EU already have long-running frustrations with the U.S. we are trying to get rid of their nuclear weaponry in our country's, the NSA scandals and now this phonecall leak that confirms our suspicions of the U.S lack of respect to the E.U. of course E.U politicians wont break up the nato pact anytime soon, but believe me when some politicians here are foaming at the mouth.

    you got to understand its for europeans a big change of mentality and the information given is huge. the U.S have simply been using the E.U for their own gains and it now gets into the daylight more and more. and the E.U, while certainly far from perfect is trying to create its own course outside of U.S meddling and interferrence.

    ...hence, the "fuck E.U" comment. because the E.U is mightly fucking sick of the U.S dragging us in one war after another. you dont think the E.U not participating in Syria strike is a coincidence?. but things dont change overnight of course. and im well aware Europe has a questionable role in the deal with Ukraine. western media does not show it of course but i saw the molotov's impacting riot police and seeping trough their armor while they are just doing their jobs.  

    anyway, just let things run their course. as far i can judge really the U.S will find itself with very little friends very soon if they keep this up.

    Although I agree with you I don't share your optimism. The only reason why things looking a little better lately is because US and EU are in economic trouble and simultaneously East powerhouses are getting stronger. The only reason why EU didn't bomb Syria was because China is too big already to piss her off and German ruled EU too damn bankrupt. Europe small nations will never break free from USA dominance except if they change this abuser with a new one. The cynical reality.

    eg Netherlands. In the early days you were drugged around by Spain. Then by British, later by Germany, when Germany lost WW2 by USA and now that EU integrated more by a mixture of USA and Germany. In the next chapter you will be drugged around by, lets say, Russia, or China (which is my bet anyway). Sovereignty? Forget it. Too small in size, to small in population. I guess we are all adults here and realize the realities of life.
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    Post  macedonian Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:58 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    What you don't get is this. There is not that evil US rules people and this must end.
    Is that people beg for a Master. They don't want to be free, they just want to be enslaved to the stronger Master. This is human nature, and is not gonna change anytime soon.
    Else democracy would had end any wrongdoings. Obviously is not, because people LOVE to be abused. By this they feel secure and important.
    Like the sheep in the herd.

    If this was true, there'd no revolutions, and people wouldn't revolt against "strong" regimes...and, as history has taught us, there were plenty of those, so that's a moot point. No, I'm afraid people REALLY do enjoy their freedoms, and react (though they're always slow to react) whenever freedom is taken away from them. Another thing that humans truly love is justice. Though we don't love justice as much as we hate injustice! Especially when one is on the receiving end of it. That's why people are fed-up being lied to all the time, and are fed-up of being sent off to fight wars on false pretenses.
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:13 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    What you don't get is this. There is not that evil US rules people and this must end.
    Is that people beg for a Master. They don't want to be free, they just want to be enslaved to the stronger Master. This is human nature, and is not gonna change anytime soon.
    Else democracy would had end any wrongdoings. Obviously is not, because people LOVE to be abused. By this they feel secure and important.
    Like the sheep in the herd.

    If this was true, there'd no revolutions, and people wouldn't revolt against "strong" regimes...and, as history has taught us, there were plenty of those, so that's a moot point. No, I'm afraid people REALLY do enjoy their freedoms, and react (though they're always slow to react) whenever freedom is taken away from them. Another thing that humans truly love is justice. Though we don't love justice as much as we hate injustice! Especially when one is on the receiving end of it. That's why people are fed-up being lied to all the time, and are fed-up of being sent off to fight wars on false pretenses.

    There are no revolutions! There are only counter dictatorships that baptist like revolutions for PR reasons!
    People make "revolutions" not for freedoms but for money. Quality of life if you prefer. Justice? When you are rich you can be fair much easier.
    Just give anyone a good job, a nice wife, take any decision mechanism away of them and they will feel fine. US contribution to political science Smile
    It is called welfare. Chinese got the lesson in 1971 you know.... and start making the reforms that unlike USSR saved their regime.
    Of course USA start run out of money so, funnily, people start realizing that Americans are no saints after all  Laughing  This is really so funny, so human if you prefer.
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    Post  Airbornewolf Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:42 pm

    flamming python,

    you are right, i agree with what you said about how it works. maybe its me hoping that the E.U finally wakes up with all this U.S bullshit policies. at least there is friction and differences of opinions lately that pisses off the U.S so ill take what i can get you know? Wink.

    and it was for me definitely a surprise, ill admit that. i did not look further, had no internet at the time and learned out the hard way about what the west really does when being deployed and things happening there "where not as advertised" as they make people believe back home. after that i went researching and here i am.

    western media of course is very adept in showing what people here in the west need to see. and people of course remain people, most of them stick to the beliefs they grew up with and dont look further than the t.v to form their opinions. its really a damn shame. like Macedonian said very right in todays world with instant acces to the internet there should be no reason why people do not look at other sources for information themselves.

    @ Hannibal, i disagree with that the E.U needs any sort of "master". yes, there is clearly mismanagement and the millitary's are suffering from budget cuts but its still a powerful organisation, or well...it has potential to be anyway.

    and im not sure what you meant with my country's history.

    we where never "drugged around". we fought a long and brutal war with spain after the dutch population got fed up with the inquisition's tactics and all dutch money evaporating by rediculous spanish taxes. and indeed, we where nothing more than a handful of provinces at the time with ill equipment and where up against an empire. we still got our independence didnt we? Wink.

    the british was a thing to do with royals marrying royals and appearantly that means their territory's get fuzed or co-joined. i never got to deep into that royalty-stuff.

    world war 2, as a matter of fact the Netherlands was a pushover for the germans. the millitary tried their best to defend heir country. but you know you are outgunned when the germans invade with tanks and your government decided to not invest in the military for years. as a result, horse-pulled guns vs german tanks. not to mention incompetent dutch officers that made matters worse. a lot of dutch troops refused surrender while clearly outnumbered and outgunned. so i give the troops credit for their bravery.

    and neither do i agree that the Netherlands cant be a sovereign country. just that our politicians decide to sell out (again) our millitary with rediculous budget cuts. (sold all our Leo2a6 tanks) and try to make some leftist-utopia in their own little perfect fantasy world and try to critisize the rest of the world.

    lets keep it nice and not start offending okay?.
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:09 pm

    @ Hannibal, i disagree with that the E.U needs any sort of "master". yes, there is clearly mismanagement and the millitary's are suffering from budget cuts but its still a powerful organisation, or well...it has potential to be anyway.

    and im not sure what you meant with my country's history.

    we where never "drugged around". we fought a long and brutal war with spain after the dutch population got fed up with the inquisition's tactics and all dutch money evaporating by rediculous spanish taxes. and indeed, we where nothing more than a handful of provinces at the time with ill equipment and where up against an empire. we still got our independence didnt we? Wink.

    the british was a thing to do with royals marrying royals and appearantly that means their territory's get fuzed or co-joined. i never got to deep into that royalty-stuff.

    world war 2, as a matter of fact the Netherlands was a pushover for the germans. the millitary tried their best to defend heir country. but you know you are outgunned when the germans invade with tanks and your government decided to not invest in the military for years. as a result, horse-pulled guns vs german tanks. not to mention incompetent dutch officers that made matters worse. a lot of dutch troops refused surrender while clearly outnumbered and outgunned. so i give the troops credit for their bravery.

    and neither do i agree that the Netherlands cant be a sovereign country. just that our politicians decide to sell out (again) our millitary with rediculous budget cuts. (sold all our Leo2a6 tanks) and try to make some leftist-utopia in their own little perfect fantasy world and try to critisize the rest of the world.

    lets keep it nice and not start offending okay?.

    -I don't speak about EU but about individual countries. Netherlands, Greece, Belgium etc. Too small to be essential sovereign especially when most of them are bankrupt and the remaining run huge deficits anyway. About EU combined. Thanks but I don't think that we are a coherent body in first place. Actually is an undemocratic joke, a hilarious attempt of 20 different nations, with 20 different languages, with dozens of different religions and a huge amount of different races and a great history of mutual.... slaughter.... to create a commonwealth. I already speak for EU in past tense. I hope it will break before we Dutch and Greeks have to face its other on the battleground...

    -Sovereignty  don't mean only that the other countries acknowledge you as an independent state but something much more and much deeper. Sorry mate, countries like mine and yours are too small and too weak for this. Sad but true. Start making.....love if you want to change it.
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    Post  Viktor Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:32 am

    5 bin $ spend on democratically elected government overthrown in Ukraine


    Washington admits spending billions on Ukraine regime change
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:52 am

    Viktor wrote:5 bin $ spend on democratically elected government overthrown in Ukraine


    Washington admits spending billions on Ukraine regime change

    That's a lot of money that is!

    Inflation must have really taken its toll. Or wage increases in the Ukraine. Back 10 years ago that figure was no more than a couple hundred million if not less; for a bloodless revolution that brought whoever they wanted into power, no questions asked.

    Hell of a depreciating investment; I mean they spent 10-15 times as much as in 2004 and with no result so far. The only thing that has been accomplished is finding yet another issue of contention with Russia and paralyzing the work of the Ukrainian government; not to mention getting embarrassed with a phone-bug leak.

    What's funny is that if they put that $5 billion aside instead, as money to support the Ukrainian economy and entice Yanukovich to the EU - then they might have gotten a lot further.
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    Post  Austin Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:50 pm

    Got this via Stratfor

    New Dimensions of U.S. Foreign Policy Toward Russi

    By George Friedman



    The struggle for some of the most strategic territory in the world took an interesting twist this week. Last week we discussed what appeared to be a significant shift in German national strategy in which Berlin seemed to declare a new doctrine of increased assertiveness in the world -- a shift that followed intense German interest in Ukraine. This week, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, in a now-famous cell phone conversation, declared her strong contempt for the European Union and its weakness and counseled the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine to proceed quickly and without the Europeans to piece together a specific opposition coalition before the Russians saw what was happening and took action.
    This is a new twist not because it makes clear that the United States is not the only country intercepting phone calls, but because it puts U.S. policy in Ukraine in a new light and forces us to reconsider U.S. strategy toward Russia and Germany. Nuland's cell phone conversation is hardly definitive, but it is an additional indicator of American strategic thinking.

    Recent U.S. Foreign Policy Shifts

    U.S. foreign policy has evolved during the past few years. Previously, the United States was focused heavily on the Islamic world and, more important, tended to regard the use of force as an early option in the execution of U.S. policy rather than as a last resort. This was true not only in Afghanistan and Iraq, but also in Africa and elsewhere. The strategy was successful when its goal was to destroy an enemy military force. It proved far more difficult to use in occupying countries and shaping their internal and foreign policies. Military force has intrinsic limits.

    The alternative has been a shift to a balance-of-power strategy in which the United States relies on the natural schisms that exist in every region to block the emergence of regional hegemons and contain unrest and groups that could threaten U.S. interests. The best example of the old policy is Libya, where the United States directly intervened with air power and special operations forces on the ground to unseat Moammar Gadhafi. Western efforts to replace him with a regime favorable to the United States and its allies have not succeeded. The new strategy can be seen in Syria, where rather than directly intervening the United States has stood back and allowed the warring factions to expend their energy on each other, preventing either side from diverting resources to activities that might challenge U.S. interests.

    Behind this is a schism in U.S. foreign policy that has more to do with motivation than actual action. On one side, there are those who consciously support the Syria model for the United States as not necessarily the best moral option but the only practical option there is. On the other, there are those who argue on behalf of moral interventions, as we saw in Libya, and removing tyrants as an end in itself. Given the outcome in Libya, this faction is on the defensive, as it must explain how an intervention will actually improve the moral situation. Given that this faction also tended to oppose Iraq, it must show how an intervention will not degenerate into Iraqi-type warfare. That is hard to do, so for all the rhetoric, the United States is by default falling into a balance-of-power model.

    The Geopolitical Battle in Ukraine

    Russia emerged as a problem for the United States after the Orange Revolution in 2004, when the United States, supporting anti-Russian factions in Ukraine, succeeded in crafting a relatively pro-Western, anti-Russian government. The Russians read this as U.S. intelligence operations designed to create an anti-Russian Ukraine that, as we have written, would directly challenge Russian strategic and economic interests. Moreover, Moscow saw the Orange Revolution (along with the Rose Revolution) as a dress rehearsal for something that could occur in Russia next. The Russian response was to use its own covert capabilities, in conjunction with economic pressure from natural gas cutoffs, to undermine Ukraine's government and to use its war with Georgia as a striking reminder of the resurrection of Russian military capabilities. These moves, plus disappointment with Western aid, allowed a more pro-Russian government to emerge in Kiev, reducing the Russians' fears and increasing their confidence. In time, Moscow became more effective and assertive in playing its cards right in the Middle East -- giving rise to the current situations in Syria and Iran and elsewhere.

    Washington had two options. One was to allow the balance of power to assert itself, in this case relying on the Europeans to contain the Russians. The other was to continue to follow the balance of power model but at a notch higher than pure passivity. As Nuland's call shows, U.S. confidence in Europe's will for and interest in blocking the Russians was low; hence a purely passive model would not work. The next step was the lowest possible level of involvement to contain the Russians and counter their moves in the Middle East. This meant a very limited and not too covert support for anti-Russian, pro-European demonstrators -- the re-creation of a pro-Western, anti-Russian government in Ukraine. To a considerable degree, the U.S. talks with Iran also allow Washington to deny the Russians an Iranian card, although the Syrian theater still allows the Kremlin some room to maneuver.

    The United States is not prepared to intervene in the former Soviet Union. Russia is not a global power, and its military has many weaknesses, but it is by far the strongest in the region and is able to project power in the former Soviet periphery, as the war with Georgia showed. At the moment, the U.S. military also has many weaknesses. Having fought for more than a decade in the core of the Islamic world, the U.S. military is highly focused on a way of war not relevant to the former Soviet Union, its alliance structure around the former Soviet Union is frayed and not supportive of war, and the inevitable post-war cutbacks that traditionally follow any war the United States fights are cutting into capabilities. A direct intervention, even were it contemplated (which it is not), is not an option. The only correlation of forces that matters is what exists at a given point in time in a given place. In that sense, the closer U.S. forces get to the Russian homeland, the greater the advantage the Russians have.

    Instead, the United States did the same thing that it did prior to the Orange Revolution: back the type of intervention that both the human rights advocates and the balance-of-power advocates could support. Giving financial and psychological support to the demonstrators protesting Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich's decision to reject a closer relationship with Europe, and later protesting the government's attempt to suppress the demonstrations, preserved the possibility of regime change in Ukraine, with minimal exposure and risk to the United States.

    Dissatisfaction with the German Approach

    As we said last week, it appeared that it was the Germans who were particularly pressing the issue, and that they were the ones virtually controlling one of the leaders of the protests, Vitali Klitschko. The United States appeared to be taking a back seat to Germany. Indeed, Berlin's statements indicating that it is prepared to take a more assertive role in the world appeared to be a historic shift in German foreign policy.

    The statements were even more notable since, over the years, Germany appeared to have been moving closer to Russia on economic and strategic issues. Neither country was comfortable with U.S. aggressiveness in the Middle East and Southwest Asia. Both countries shared the need to create new economic relationships in the face of the European economic crisis and the need to contain the United States. Hence, the apparent German shift was startling.

    Although Germany's move should not be dismissed, its meaning was not as clear as it seemed. In her cell phone call, Nuland is clearly dismissing the Germans, Klitschko and all their efforts in Ukraine. This could mean that the strategy was too feeble for American tastes (Berlin cannot, after all, risk too big a confrontation with Moscow). Or it could mean that when the Germans said they were planning to be more assertive, their new boldness was meant to head off U.S. efforts. Looking at this week's events, it is not clear what the Germans meant.

    What is clear is that the United States was not satisfied with Germany and the European Union. Logically, this meant that the United States intended to be more aggressive than the Germans in supporting opponents of the regime. This is a touchy issue for human rights advocates, or should be. Yanukovich is the elected president of Ukraine, winner of an election that is generally agreed to have been honest (even though his constitutional amendments and subsequent parliamentary elections may not have been). He was acting within his authority in rejecting the deal with the European Union. If demonstrators can unseat an elected president because they disagree with his actions, they have set a precedent that undermines constitutionalism. Even if he was rough in suppressing the demonstrators, it does not nullify his election.

    From a balance of power strategy, however, it makes great sense. A pro-Western, even ambiguous, Ukraine poses a profound strategic problem for Russia. It would be as if Texas became pro-Russian, and the Mississippi River system, oil production, the Midwest and the Southwest became vulnerable. The Russian ability to engage in Iran or Syria suddenly contracts. Moscow's focus must be on Ukraine.

    Using the demonstrations to create a massive problem for Russia does two things. It creates a real strategic challenge for the Russians and forces them on the defensive. Second, it reminds Russia that Washington has capabilities and options that make challenging the United States difficult. And it can be framed in a way that human rights advocates will applaud in spite of the constitutional issues, enemies of the Iranian talks will appreciate and Central Europeans from Poland to Romania will see as a sign of U.S. commitment to the region. The United States will re-emerge as an alternative to Germany and Russia. It is a brilliant stroke.

    Its one weakness, if we can call it that, is that it is hard to see how it can work. Russia has significant economic leverage in Ukraine, it is not clear that pro-Western demonstrators are in the majority, and Russian covert capabilities in Ukraine outstrip American capabilities. The Federal Security Service and Foreign Intelligence Service have been collecting files on Ukrainians for a long time. We would expect that after the Olympics in Sochi, the Russians could play their trump cards.

    On the other hand, even if the play fails, the United States will have demonstrated that it is back in the game and that the Russians should look around their periphery and wonder where the United States will act next. Putting someone in a defensive crouch does not require that the first punch work. It is enough for the opponent to understand that the next punch will come when he is least expecting it. The mere willingness of the United States to engage will change the expectations of Central Europe, cause tensions between the Central Europeans and the Germans and create an opening for the United States.

    The Pressure on Russia

    Of course, the question is whether and where the Russians will answer the Americans, or even if they will consider the U.S. actions significant at all. In a sense, Syria was Moscow's move and this is the countermove. The Russians can choose to call the game. They have many reasons to. Their economy is under pressure. The Germans may not rally to the United States, but they will not break from it. And if the United States ups the ante in Central Europe, Russian inroads there will dissolve.

    If the Russians are now an American problem, which they are, and if the United States is not going to revert to a direct intervention mode, which it cannot, then this strategy makes sense. At the very least it gives the Russians a problem and a sense of insecurity that can curb their actions elsewhere. At best it could create a regime that might not counterbalance Russia but could make pipelines and ports vulnerable -- especially with U.S. help.

    The public interception of Nuland's phone call was not all that embarrassing. It showed the world that the United States, not Germany, is leading the way in Ukraine. And it showed the Russians that the Americans care so little, they will express it on an open cell phone line. Nuland's obscene dismissal of the European Union and treatment of Russia as a problem to deal with confirms a U.S. policy: The United States is not going to war, but passivity is over.
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    Post  Austin Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:59 pm

    Putin slams West for "deterrence" policies against Russia



    President Vladimir Putin has accused the West of "deterrence" policies against Russia similar to an alleged anti-Soviet policy of the Cold War era.



    "Unfortunately, we can see this now, those atavisms of that theory of deterrence. They manifest themselves now here and there," Putin said during a meeting on Monday of a public council that helped organize the current Sochi Winter Olympics.


    "When Russia shows positive developments," some fears arise in economies and political circles elsewhere in the world, "and so there are attempts to deter Russia, they manifest themselves now here, now there," he said.

    Those present at the meeting included people from various ethnic groups in the North Caucasus, and Putin claimed that means employed in the alleged "deterrence" policies include "the Cherkessian factor."

    "But, to be frank, as soon as I could see and feel that such attempts were being made, I had no doubt that those were attempts with hopeless means : because I know sentiments among Cherkessians, I know leaders of Cherkessian organizations, and I know what feelings they have for their smaller homeland and their larger one, Russia," Putin said.
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:33 pm

    On reply to Austin's post of the latest Stratfor weekly:

    A good analysis all in all who put lights in a few shades. But it has a catch that should have been mentioned and does not. The new US policy in which Friedman refers in any given chance this "balance of power strategy" relies heavily if not exclusively in US's (EU as well if you like) ability to bribe anybody and anything. So the article should had discussed whether this "pay and divide policy" is secured in the near future and if yes how, especially since this policy is now well known and those who get bribed is been exposed as puppets of foreign interests. Finally it should also refer to the case of Turkey where the same policy is also in use with negative results so far.
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    Post  Austin Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:38 pm

    IF Ukraine joins EU does it mean it will have to follow NATO military policy or its just Economic Deal ?

    If its just economic deal then EU will regret having Ukraine in its fold.

    If it means NATO extension then its real worrisome ?


    It would be beneficial for Russia to fund East Ukraine and key sectors of Ukraine like Antonov and Rocket Industry for its own benefits.
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:13 pm

    Russia should not even discuss what would happen if Ukraine joins EU and NATO. Not even as a working hypothesis. It should be forbidden by law to put this words together.
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    Post  Austin Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:10 pm

    Serbia has joined EU yet has good military relations with Russia.

    The point is how much of an economic drag is Ukraine on Russia versus it joining EU.

    If Ukraine joins EU then Russia should stop giving cheap gas and stop import of Ukraine products as per the norms.

    But it should continue supporting the Ukraine East and Antonov and strategic sectors.

    The point being you dont want to isolate Ukraine completely and tax the East for fault of West Ukraine , else you might end up isolating the East too.
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    Post  macedonian Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:43 pm

    Austin wrote:Serbia has joined EU yet has good military relations with Russia.
    When did this happen?!

    Sorry, just havin' a laugh...I'm afraid you got this one wrong.
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    Post  Austin Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:47 pm

    Ok I am wrong they are negotiating it though.

    What are the economic consequences for Russia for Russia versus EU/US tiff for Ukraine ? 

    Would this have a significant impact on the economy which is already limbering ?
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    Post  macedonian Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:01 pm

    Austin wrote:Ok I am wrong they are negotiating it though.
    Negotiating means nothing. It's not actual accession, it just means they've started to talk about it. And knowing the Serbs (I hope) they'll never swallow that bitter pill.
    We (Macedonia) have been negotiating for the past 12 years, and I also hope we'll NEVER join. The Turks have been negotiating for half a century or something...they will also NEVER join though.

    Austin wrote:What are the economic consequences for Russia for Russia versus EU/US tiff for Ukraine ? 

    Would this have a significant impact on the economy which is already limbering ?
    The consequences are quite significant. Ukraine can't have an agreement for free trade with both Russia and the EU. Neither party will ever allow that. Funny enough, it was the EU that forced the Ukrainians to make a choice, NOT Russia, but it got that spin in western media...and it has been presented that way ever since.
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:40 pm

    Austin wrote:Serbia has joined EU yet has good military relations with Russia.

    The point is how much of an economic drag is Ukraine on Russia versus it joining EU.

    If Ukraine joins EU then Russia should stop giving cheap gas and stop import of Ukraine products as per the norms.

    But it should continue supporting the Ukraine East and Antonov and strategic sectors.

    The point being you dont want to isolate Ukraine completely and tax the East for fault of West Ukraine , else you might end up isolating the East too.

    If Ukraine join EU every single investment by Russia and China should and will stop immediately. Every Ukrainian asset in the East should freeze and the country should be put to the most extreme economic embargo and this traitors (hypothetical scenario) will stagnate to death. Finally, by following this policy, everybody will learn that the one who has the power call the shots and the power shifting to the East after a thousand years.
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    Post  Austin Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:47 pm

    Hannibal , Russia may but I still dont support that because that may isolate your support base in the East.

    But why China , How does it really matter to china as long as it gets business to them , Money Talks isnt it ?
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:18 pm

    - Austin, you don't beat your opponent by complying with him. You beat them by making their concerns irrelevant. The funny thing is that US claims traditional are so outrageous that they become irrelevant even when they have the power to impose their will under normal lines.

    - Of course here I speak without PR tongue. You express yourself differently when you have to do it formally, because some may don't get it

    - China has 10 times more reasons to hate EU than Russia. Pretty simple, EU economic protectionism hits China's economic interests much more that anybody else. I said already in an other post that if EU collapse the first thing that is going to happen is that China will dethrone Germany as the biggest trade partner to almost every single country in the union. This along with the fatal blow such development will inflict in NATO means that all this independent states will be up for grabs for those who got cash. Whether someone likes it or not THE ONLY country with real cash in hand is China. This is the geostrategic level. There is a more direct level of course. Any investment China has in Ukraine (mostly of agricultural nature), will be in huge danger with EU tariffs, protectionism, specific production and trade percentages for every economic sector that EU impose on their members, new ultra strict environmental laws. Also with a hard currency and new monetary policy the costs will skyrocket. Additionally there will be extra political havoc, Brussels will have a saying in each deal whatever that means and much more. Ukraine banks will subdue to ECB and IMF will take care of US interests as well. One phrase, it is game over. When guess what, now Ukraine will have huge Chinese direct and indirect via Russia, investments. China will have it's Trojan in Europe soil, Russia will have it's Eurasian Union and everything and BRICS's new development bank will have the optimal showcase to prove that is a better choice than IMF and world bank. I mean China here has a hell of plans that are at stake.
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    Post  Austin Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:39 pm

    I was expecting EU and US will fall pretty soon with the huge debt they have and the mad rate at which they were printing useless Paper.

    I guess this would go longer then expected .... China indeed is in a strong position they just need to make the transistion to local consumption oriented growth much faster compared to export oriented one.
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:50 pm

    Austin wrote:I was expecting EU and US will fall pretty soon with the huge debt they have and the mad rate at which they were printing useless Paper.

    I guess this would go longer then expected .... China indeed is in a strong position they just need to make the transistion to local consumption oriented growth much faster compared to export oriented one.

    I wish you are right but your optimism probably going a little too far. I don't think it is so immediate. In any case we should never underestimate the opponent, rule number one  Wink 

    By the way, US is a strong, rich, advanced, big country. I expect them to recover and remain strong. Among the best no matter what. I am not even to the slightest as optimistic about my continent Europe. IMO we are obviously moving towards a poor, peripheral, miserable, deadlock future.
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    Post  Austin Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:13 pm

    Some time I wonder if Russia positing is really screwed up.

    It has to face combined onslaught of US and Europe .....while its own partner in CSTO are quite weak and the only help it gets is from China that too only diplomatically nothing more.

    While US and Europe can at whim change regiem , Impose Unilateral Economic Blockade like in Iran and go about doing Nasty things all over with impunity without any fear of blow back.

    Not to mention the entire Media in Western circle never gets tired showing Russia as the big devil.

    Economically Russia is too weak to do any thing like impose sanctions and perhaps nothing short of a total war can it hope to win.
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    Post  TR1 Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:31 pm

    It's not like Russia is facing a NATO onslaught, it has very good relationships with some NATO nations.
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    Post  Austin Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:39 pm

    TR1 wrote:It's not like Russia is facing a NATO onslaught, it has very good relationships with some NATO nations.

    With some that dont really matter much in NATO eg Italy

    Key NATO countries like UK , French and Germany follow US diktat.
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    Post  Austin Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:42 pm

    It really need strong allies Economically and Militarily.

    I wonder if Russia-China , NATO like alliance will work ?

    Or make SCO a CSTO equivalent ...so China Leads SCO and CSTO is lead by Russia.

    Its not that China too is happy with US and its constant poking and threatening posture.

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