RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

With US sanctions, Tejas will be without engine, radar, avionics, catapult seat, etc. With other words dead. If India want to replace all that with Russian ones, they will need more than ten years to redesign it and test it. MiG-21 Bison will have to serve for another decade.

Its gonna be interesting to see if the US dares to sanction India, but I think just the existance of CAATSA pretty much disqualifies western players in the Indian fighter tender.

India isn't Turkey, Iran or Pakistan; if too many heavy sanctions r slapped on her, she may cancel F-18E/F lease & other deals.

Tsavo Lion wrote:India isn't Turkey, Iran or Pakistan; if too many heavy sanctions r slapped on her, she may cancel F-18E/F lease & other deals.

US and Indian 'good' relations are only a recent phenomenon (of convenience), US has already sanctioned both Modi as well as India as a whole before, they armed Pakistan for decades, and even threatened to bomb and invade India with Task Force 74 and the 7th fleet, to help Pakistan in the 1960's.

medo wrote:With US sanctions, Tejas will be without engine, radar, avionics, catapult seat, etc..

they'll/may have their own avionics & engine- better late than never!
If not, Russia could supply them suitable engines.

Tsavo Lion wrote:India isn't Turkey, Iran or Pakistan; if too many heavy sanctions r slapped on her, she may cancel F-18E/F lease & other deals.

India is not leasing F18s yet nor has it contracted any.

true, but if the US persists with sanctioning India, it may never lease them out.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/should-iaf-invest-15-bn-in-buying-the-f/a-18-super-hornet/articleshow/70355847.cms?from=mdr

15 billion... with a unit price of 40 millions they could buy 375 mig-35.

They can even buy 2 carrier and fill them with fighters.

Indians are more than stupid.

Why don't they just give me 1 or 2 million ?

No, the initial leasing is by the navy; the IAF may get those made in India: Depending on the number of machines ordered by both the Navy and the IAF, Boeing will set up a completely new production facility in India for the production of its F/A-18 Super Hornets with the aim that the new facility can be used for other programs like India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/should-iaf-invest-15-bn-in-buying-the-f/a-18-super-hornet/articleshow/70355847.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

GarryB wrote:Jesus... 15 billion to lease some F-18s... you didn't say it was 15 billion to LEASE some Hornets... good god man... that is ridiculous... they could probably buy outright a couple of hundred MiG-35s for that and would own them and not have to hand them back.

India is neither purchasing nor leasing any F-18. U.S is building up pressure as usual. India does not have US$ 15 billion to splurge on F-18s.

Sujoy wrote:

GarryB wrote:Jesus... 15 billion to lease some F-18s... you didn't say it was 15 billion to LEASE some Hornets... good god man... that is ridiculous... they could probably buy outright a couple of hundred MiG-35s for that and would own them and not have to hand them back.

India is neither purchasing nor leasing any F-18. U.S is building up pressure as usual. India does not have US$ 15 billion to splurge on F-18s.

Dude just get MiGs

For half that cash you will get double the number of planes which Ruskies will stuff with more tech than Su-35 and will throw in lifetime of spare parts and ordinance on top

PapaDragon wrote:Dude just get MiGs

Already purchasing. Twenty One (21) Mig 29s will arrive from Russia shortly apart from 12 brand new SU 30MKIs.
https://www.businesstoday.in/current/economy-politics/indian-air-force-plans-to-buy-12-sukhoi-21-mig-29s-amid-india-china-standoff/story/407350.html

PapaDragon wrote:For half that cash you will get double the number of planes

India doesn't have US$ 15 billion to procure F-18s. In any case F 18 production is being stopped in the US itself. US probably wants to keep production lines open and so they are forcing India to procure it. There is a bigger possibility that more Rafales will be procured.

PapaDragon wrote: which Ruskies will stuff with more tech than Su-35 and will throw in lifetime of spare parts and ordinance on top

So far Russia has not offered any major upgrade for the Mig 29 from technologies that (as you said) that have already matured on the Su 35 or even Su 57. MRO, is one area where Russia has struggled, big time in India. Do they struggle with MRO in other countries where they export their wares... I do not know.

This lack of proper MRO is what allowed US to enter the Indian defense market.

Since India is already showing interest in leasing weapons from foreign countries, and to match US offer, I feel Russia can make an offer to lease their Mig-35 and Su 35 to India. Indian pilots already fly the Mig 29 and Su 30MKI, so they won't have to spend a bomb to get trained on the Mig 35 or Su 35.

Sujoy wrote:So far Russia has not offered any major upgrade for the Mig 29 from technologies that (as you said) that have already matured on the Su 35 or even Su 57.  MRO, is one area where Russia has struggled, big time in India. Do they struggle with MRO in other countries where they export their wares... I do not know.

This lack of proper MRO is what allowed US to enter the Indian defense market.

Since India is already showing interest in leasing weapons from foreign countries, and to match US offer, I feel Russia can make an offer to lease their Mig-35 and Su 35 to India. Indian pilots already fly the Mig 29 and Su 30MKI, so they won't have to spend a bomb to get trained on the Mig 35 or Su 35.  

Cut it out! Indian built Russian jets crash at much higher rates than the Russian built jets despite flying in a much harsher sub-Arctic/Arctic climate because you guys refused their quality control doctrine. The MiG-35 offered the Zhuk-ME AESA as well as 3D vector engine nozzles, and probably could of been used to upgrade the MiG-29 fleet, but instead the notoriously corrupt weapon procurement process in India got you a stillborn Rafale deal that still requires separate tanker aircraft lmao! Even now pathetic corrupt Indian officials who say it's dangerous not to diversify their weapon supplies from Russia, are in danger of having their weapon supplies endangered regardless...

Really the position of India is hard to understand. They are trying to reduce their reliance on Russia, which was always a reliable partner with affordable products and ready for ToT (to a reasonable extent) and to do that, they throw themselves in the arms of Westerners which are neither affordable nor reliable nor ready for ToT...

Buy the MiG-35 to avoid the critical loss of squadrons and engage in AMCA (or co-design LMFS) with Russia to get some real possibility of getting areal plane in a realistic time frame. Buy the Su-57 as the higher end fighter for the air force. Ideally they would do their own fighters, engines and systems, but Tejas and Kaveri prove they are still a bit too far from that, not admitting reality is harming them and going to do more harm in the future.

magnumcromagnon wrote: Indian built Russian jets crash at much higher rates than the Russian built jets despite flying in a much harsher sub-Arctic/Arctic climate

Higher rate compared to which country? No other country that imports fighter aircraft from Russia flies as many sorties as the Indian Air Force does.

If jets were designed for Arctic climate then it makes perfect sense why they crash in hot, humid countries like India.  

magnumcromagnon wrote: because you guys refused their quality control doctrine.

 Which quality control doctrine was violated. You clearly have more knowledge about Indian quality control than even the Russian government. Because till date not a single statement has been made by the Russian government that Indians do not follow SOP.

IAF has to send their aircraft to Russia at regular intervals for MRO. Obviously any departure from any quality control measure would have been noted.

If Russian made jets are crashing in India because India is violating Russian quality control measures then clearly Russia should ban the sale of aircraft to India because India is destroying the brand value of Russian aircraft.

magnumcromagnon wrote:The MiG-35 offered the Zhuk-ME AESA as well as 3D vector engine nozzles, and probably could of been used to upgrade the MiG-29 fleet

How many Mig 29 of the Russian Air Force has been upgraded with Mig 35 technologies? When was this offer made to India to upgrade Indian Mig 29s with Mig 35 technologies?

How many Mig 29 of the Russian Air Force has been upgraded with Mig 35 technologies? When was this offer made to India to upgrade Indian Mig 29s with Mig 35 technologies?

None was upgraded in Russia unfortunately. They had a big amount of them and India payed only 600 million to upgrade its fleet to UPG standard so Russia could have upgraded 100 A/B version to SMT for that money. On the opposite they payed 2.5 billion for not even 50 mirage 2000 upgrades.

India has the UPG standard which is the best upgrade so far. If they ask for upgrading them to Mig-35 level then MiG will accept with no conditions. India is the main user of their jets.

But buying new mig-35 is better.

Isos wrote:If they ask for upgrading them to Mig-35 level then MiG will accept with no conditions. India is the main user of their jets.

This calls for a deep upgrade. Not sure if Indian Mig 29s can be upgraded completely to a Mig-35. Moreover, Mig-35 is still undergoing its mandated state flight-test campaign. Trials will not be complete before next year.

Within Russia itself, rather than trading legacy Fulcrums for brand-new MiG-35s, some squadrons have switched to the “heavyweight” Su-30SM Flanker instead.

If the Mig-35 is indeed so capable an aircraft ( I'm not saying it isn't) why isn't it finding any buyers? Even Egypt decided to purchase Mig-35s but then changed its mind and purchased MiG-29s instead.

India should rather purchase the Su-35. Performance wise and cost wise it is a better deal. Compared to Su 35s, Mig 35s are not very cheap. The cost of a basic MiG-35 is 65% that of the Su-35.

Isos wrote:But buying new mig-35 is better.

Why? Because the airframe will be new?

Mig 35 isn't ready. But it will be very soon. Egypt ordered its migs years ago so unlikely they order something that was finished then or tested.

Now it's almost ready and all the new systems are almost in production. Signing a contract for upgrades will take 1 year or so to agree. So they can order mig-35 level update now. Indian pilots have already tested it btw.

Egyptian mig-29M are very close to mig-35. Only the AESA radar is missing IMO. It's much better than the mig-29M of the 90s. Just like the Kr version is different from the K version of the 80s.

Why? Because the airframe will be new?

Yes. Indian migs are not young at all. Better buy new airframes.

India would be stupid to buy something that's not in Russian service itself or isnt planned to be introduced into Russian service in any meaningful quantity

flamming_python wrote:India would be stupid to buy something that's not in Russian service itself or isnt planned to be introduced into Russian service in any meaningful quantity

The UPG upgrade wasn't either. Nor was the su-30MKI.

Mig-35 isn't a new aircraft. It is very similar to their mig-29K with better equipment. So it already incirporate the experience of the mig-29 family which the indians are very familiar with.

Isos wrote:

flamming_python wrote:India would be stupid to buy something that's not in Russian service itself or isnt planned to be introduced into Russian service in any meaningful quantity

The UPG upgrade wasn't either. Nor was the su-30MKI.

Mig-35 isn't a new aircraft. It is very similar to their mig-29K with better equipment. So it already incirporate the experience of the mig-29 family which the indians are very familiar with.

That's not the point

And BTW, the MiG-29K gave the Indians problems for this reason, it was a new model that the Russians themselves hadn't fielded, and there were a lot of kinks to work out.

The MiG-35, if it's really offers such a good deal from the doctrinal, technological and value for money points of view, should be in Russian service - yet it's not. The Indians would no doubt ask themselves why, and why they would want it instead.

Sujoy wrote:Higher rate compared to which country? No other country that imports fighter aircraft from Russia flies as many sorties as the Indian Air Force does.
If jets were designed for Arctic climate then it makes perfect sense why they crash in hot, humid countries like India.

 
Algeria, Indonesia, Malaysia...warm weather countries that don't have the quality control issues of Russian built and delivered jets, but your domestically assembled jets are the ones with terrible quality control issues genius. I mean FFS you have ass hats selling engine blades on the black market over there.

Which quality control doctrine was violated. You clearly have more knowledge about Indian quality control than even the Russian government. Because till date not a single statement has been made by the Russian government that Indians do not follow SOP.

IAF has to send their aircraft to Russia at regular intervals for MRO. Obviously any departure from any quality control measure would have been noted.

If Russian made jets are crashing in India because India is violating Russian quality control measures then clearly Russia should ban the sale of aircraft to India because India is destroying the brand value of Russian aircraft.

Don't play stupid (or maybe your not playing)Indian 's on the internet always bring up lack of maintenance etc., etc. from the Russians, but the shoddy engineering and industrial quality control of Indian built jets are constantly plaguing them. Tell me, is it the Russians lack of maintenance the reason why both Tejas and Arjun aren't so ubiquitous that they're not being marketed for foreign purchases? Surely if it wasn't the shitty industrial practices from the Indians, they'd be selling their own jets and tanks all over the world.    

How many Mig 29 of the Russian Air Force has been upgraded with Mig 35 technologies? When was this offer made to India to upgrade Indian Mig 29s with Mig 35 technologies?

They're using the money for AESA radars and 3D vector engines buying Su-57's, unlike India who will spend more money for Rafales that require their own tanker aircraft to be purchased. Last things the Indians need to worry about is how Russian's spend their money, you have your own jackass corrupt Indian leadership to worry about lol!

flamming_python wrote:

Isos wrote:

flamming_python wrote:India would be stupid to buy something that's not in Russian service itself or isnt planned to be introduced into Russian service in any meaningful quantity

The UPG upgrade wasn't either. Nor was the su-30MKI.

Mig-35 isn't a new aircraft. It is very similar to their mig-29K with better equipment. So it already incirporate the experience of the mig-29 family which the indians are very familiar with.

That's not the point

And BTW, the MiG-29K gave the Indians problems for this reason, it was a new model that the Russians themselves hadn't fielded, and there were a lot of kinks to work out.

The MiG-35, if it's really offers such a good deal from the doctrinal, technological and value for money points of view, should be in Russian service - yet it's not. The Indians would no doubt ask themselves why, and why they would want it instead.

Their mig-29k suck because they maintain them like it was some shitty cars.

Russia isn't interested by mig family because their range is half of sukhoi's ones. They need something that can cover their huge territory and they can't buy 1000 of new jets like USSR. So they went with sukhoi only. That doesn't mean mig-35 is bad.