RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

Endless excuses and whinging for everything....just curious, is anything ever India's fault?

Actually it's pretty simple. Guided by your sometimes irrational fear of China, you are quite happy to play the role of a vassal. That is official Indian policy that has little to do with PR (I'd be very worried if your government policy is guided by PR). Quite strange position for a country of over a billion people.

If you think I'm exaggerating, has India lately for example taken an independent position in the UN....nope, quite happy to tow the party line even when it blatantly goes against your own national interests.

Money was no object when it came to the MRCA deal for some stopgap fighters, they have ended up with 126 Rafales that will cost 20 billion when the competition from the outset was clearly for 10 billion but no one cares.

Now they are picking an inferior lifting helicopter because it is slightly cheaper?

I would suggest asking Mig to enter the MRCA competition was fraud because they were never going to be allowed to win.

I would also suggest that Mil have a case along a similar vein.

Of course the Russian AF will benefit because they will be getting a further improved heavy lift helo.

but remember there r no permamnent friends or foe in this great game.

That is Americas mantra and is a direct result of the way they treat their "allies".

India is a friend of Russia, but if India thinks it can get a better deal from the US and pushes away from Russia because it thinks it might get the same sort of cooperation with the US that they get with Russia but with higher tech stuff... well... just look at the UK and its relationship with the US.

Current extradition laws between those best buddies mean for the UK to extradite a US citizen they need hard evidence of a serious crime. For the US to get a UK resident extradited they just have to ask.

Their special relationship doesn't even extend to the source codes to the F-35 the UK will be buying, it seems 2 billion dollars in development money buys them nothing at all.

Cyberspec wrote:Endless excuses and whinging for everything....just curious, is anything ever India's fault?

Actually it's pretty simple. Guided by your sometimes irrational fear of China, you are quite happy to play the role of a vassal. That is official Indian policy that has little to do with PR (I'd be very worried if your government policy is guided by PR). Quite strange position for a country of over a billion people.

If you think I'm exaggerating, has India lately for example taken an independent position in the UN....nope, quite happy to tow the party line even when it blatantly goes against your own national interests.

first of all we r not scared of china .india and china will lose a lot if they fought.but will gain a lot if they worked together..both india and china recognise this
and yes pr important for india .cuz itis a democratic country .they have to keep the people happy... and as i said before russia left a vaccum . the ussr was much closer to india then the present day russia. if u look most of thedeals were made by ussr and not the present day russia. even the nuke plant was signed in 1988 . i know this is a millitary forum but i have to say ussr and india had alot going on before then itis now.. more india movies shown in russia. there were a lot of india students going to russia before then they r today .there is less coperation in the feild of science .isreal is coperating more with india in that feild now ..

gary i agree with u 100% russia does share the hightech stuff. thanks to russia wemay soon have our own nuclear sub ....

but when it comes to usa ..i doubt india wants tobe a ally withthem. even if india become one they wont be like uk .but will be more like france

regarding the mmrca ther were other jets like grippen and f16s which dint really belong in the tender . cuz india clearly wanted 2 engines multirole fighter...
i am not sure how the mmrca went from $10 bil to $20 bil maybe sujoy can throw some light on this ..

Cyberspec wrote:Endless excuses and whinging for everything....just curious, is anything ever India's fault?

That is official Indian policy that has little to do with PR (I'd be very worried if your government policy is guided by PR). Quite strange position for a country of over a billion people.

If you think I'm exaggerating, has India lately for example taken an independent position in the UN....nope, quite happy to tow the party line even when it blatantly goes against your own national interests.

india has a history for voting against usa in the un .. and india has always stood up for what it beleaves in .

Actually it's pretty simple. Guided by your sometimes irrational fear of China, you are quite happy to play the role of a vassal.

if ur saying we r trying to cosy up with usa cuz of fear of china ?
ur wrong . china has always been there and we know how to deal with them on our own..

and i dont know what u meant by india playing a vassal .maybe
u mean india is acting like pakistan with usa .. but i have to tell u we pay for our stuff .we dont get anything for free from usa neither do we want it..

india's official policy is to be nonaligned .it is the founder of that group ..
i know ur pissed off cuz russia lost a lot of deals but as i have said before india always has some thing for russia .now we will only know that when mr.putin finds some time to come to india lol

this article says what i really meant when i said russia left a vaccum which is filled by west http://indrus.in/articles/2012/10/29/building_brand_russia_in_india_18699.html

The Indian Cabinet Committee on Security cleared a deal where the Indian Army would buy 10,000 Russian-origin Konkurs-M anti-tank guided missiles, PTI said. The deal is valued at $223 million, according to the agency.



The missiles would be used for the Mechanised Infantry and Infantry battalions of the Army, sources told PTI. The Konkurs-M will be used to augment the anti-tank arsenal in the army, PTI cited the sources as saying.

Cyberspec wrote:Endless excuses and whinging for everything....just curious, is anything ever India's fault?

Actually it's pretty simple. Guided by your sometimes irrational fear of China, you are quite happy to play the role of a vassal. That is official Indian policy that has little to do with PR (I'd be very worried if your government policy is guided by PR). Quite strange position for a country of over a billion people.

If you think I'm exaggerating, has India lately for example taken an independent position in the UN....nope, quite happy to tow the party line even when it blatantly goes against your own national interests.

Since the opening up of the Indian economy, we are driven by our national interests. For your information, the only country which has a worse recording in voting against the US is Cuba. Not China, not Russia. And this stands till date. Recently or historically. No American company, I state, has been oked for nuclear energy production, though that is what they expected. But, we do deal with Russia, France and Israel. These countries are who we define as partners. The rest are just sellers to us.

As far as China is concerned, Indian interests are not defined purely on the eastern front. Its defined as the IOR region. This is what drives our rapid military expansion. We do not have pacts with any country which is anti-China. Which would have been the case if you were right. But we do have a pact with a GCC country, yup a defence pact. This is the only country India will back militarily if its attacked. Again, driven by our economic interests. Also, you will appreciate, that military procurement is based on capabilities and not intentions of the opponent (perceived or not).

Among the 42 Su-30MKI contract that is expected to be signed during Putin visit to India,

the is something unexpected in the piping to much bigger than 42 Su-30MKI (worth 3.5bin$) and new 71 Mi-17V5 (??)

cca 1000 AL-31FP licence production until 2030 worth 5bin $

That will for sure give huge injection in Russia 5th generation engine.

On the other hand its interesting to note huge contract Russia is getting for fighter engine production from China and now India.

Somehow it seems to dwarf other contract

Megakontrakt with India engines AL-31FP


The newspaper " Vedomosti " in an article by Alexei Nikolsky "India put on the record," according to the conclusion of "Rosoboronexport" in October 2012, with India supergiant contract worth about $ 5 billion for the licensed production in India in 2030 aircraft engines AL- 31FP for the Su-30MKI. According to reports, it is a production in India 970 such engines. In fact, in India, will be assembling engines AL-31FP from components supplied by Russian companies. The first 50 engines so-called "zero-phase" (apparently almost ready) will be delivered in 2013. This megakontrakt with India to a large extent, allowed the Russian defense exports reach a record level of $ 15 billion of new contracts signed in 2012 year. Another major contract, allowing a sum of $ 15 billion, an agreement to supply India 42 additional Su-30MKI fighters, finalization of which is to be held during the visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to New Delhi, scheduled for December 24, 2012.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/410074.html

Viktor wrote:Among the 42 Su-30MKI contract that is expected to be signed during Putin visit to India,

the is something unexpected in the piping to much bigger than 42 Su-30MKI (worth 3.5bin$) and new 71 Mi-17V5 (??)

cca 1000 AL-31FP licence production until 2030 worth 5bin $

That will for sure give huge injection in Russia 5th generation engine.

On the other hand its interesting to note huge contract Russia is getting for fighter engine production from China and now India.

Somehow it seems to dwarf other contract

Megakontrakt with India engines AL-31FP


The newspaper " Vedomosti " in an article by Alexei Nikolsky "India put on the record," according to the conclusion of "Rosoboronexport" in October 2012, with India supergiant contract worth about $ 5 billion for the licensed production in India in 2030 aircraft engines AL- 31FP for the Su-30MKI. According to reports, it is a production in India 970 such engines. In fact, in India, will be assembling engines AL-31FP from components supplied by Russian companies. The first 50 engines so-called "zero-phase" (apparently almost ready) will be delivered in 2013. This megakontrakt with India to a large extent, allowed the Russian defense exports reach a record level of $ 15 billion of new contracts signed in 2012 year. Another major contract, allowing a sum of $ 15 billion, an agreement to supply India 42 additional Su-30MKI fighters, finalization of which is to be held during the visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to New Delhi, scheduled for December 24, 2012.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/410074.html

what will india do with 1000 engines ???

ricky123 wrote:what will india do with 1000 engines ???

Well close to 300 Su-30MKI up to 2030. Thats summons it all.

Viktor wrote:

ricky123 wrote:what will india do with 1000 engines ???

Well close to 300 Su-30MKI up to 2030. Thats summons it all.

and these r only for su30mki .... not the pakfa right ???

i could understand to keep 300 extra engines as spares but 1000 dont u think it is abit too much ?? and what other benefits will indians get from this deal ??
and 1000 engines for only $5bil ?

ricky123 wrote:
i could understand to keep 300 extra engines as spares but 1000 dont u think it is abit too much ??

Actually 300 engines are not enough given the fact that India has close to 160 SU 30 MKIs and no major engine overhaul has taken place in the last 5 years . India will be producing 1000 such engines in house not at one go but through 2020

HAL is presently three years behind schedule when it comes to setting up depot-level MRO facilities for the Su-30MKI

ricky123 wrote:and what other benefits will indians get from this deal ??

The SUPER SUKHOI deal is a breakthrough deal . It transforms the SU 30 MKI from an air dominance aircraft to an air superiority aircraft making them possibly the most potent 4 ++ gen aircraft anywhere in the world.

ricky123 wrote:and these r only for su30mki .... not the pakfa right ???

Only for SU 30 MKI and Super Sukhois not for PAK FA .The AL 41F engine ( 117 ) is still being fine tuned in Russia .

thanks how is this going to help russia .. i mean for the development of 5th gen engines ?

A sales contract for 1,000 engines means building a factory in India and training Indian workers to assemble the engines, and sending the components to India for assembly... that should result in full order books for a few years, which should mean they will be able to get bank loans to upgrade equipment and tooling in their own factories, which should help improve quality and reduce production costs which maximises profit from further sales and enables more exotic materials to become affordable and the new machines necessary to work such new exotic materials like ceramics and high strength metal alloys for new engine designs, which means better performance over a wider performance envelope.

Very simply if the company can take a signed contract with India for 1,000 engines to a bank manager then they are more likely to get a large loan for new machines etc than if they had to go cap in hand with newspaper clippings showing Russian AF generals claiming to want x number of Su-35s by 2020.

the reason i asked is cuz this deal is only for $5bil .will it have enough money left over for the company for r and d for other 5th gen engines ???

The profits and production work should go towards maintaining and improving a skilled workforce, and using new toolings and new materials etc etc.

This translates into a company that can then invest in new technolgies and explore new areas of design or materials to further improve their own work.

They will have areas where they could learn from the west, but they will also be exploring areas the west might have tried and failed at, or the west has dismissed as not viable, which could lead to a breakthrough of their own.

Saturn are working hard on new engines and extra contracts will only be good for them.

ricky123 wrote:thanks how is this going to help russia .. i mean for the development of 5th gen engines ?

These are two mutually exclusive issues . Development of the 5th gen engine for the PAKFA is NOT dependent on this deal.The JV for the PAKFA was signed even before the Super Sukhoi project was envisaged.

Sujoy wrote:

ricky123 wrote:thanks how is this going to help russia .. i mean for the development of 5th gen engines ?

These are two mutually exclusive issues . Development of the 5th gen engine for the PAKFA is NOT dependent on this deal.The JV for the PAKFA was signed even before the Super Sukhoi project was envisaged.

i thought al41 is uprated from al31 so it might help them cuz it is the same company .and since al41 is gonna be used in pakfa india might benefit from it too ...

anyway gary answered my question ..i hope this deal improves the company standing in the market and encourage them to come up with even better products in the future

The engine going into the PAK FA is a fundamentally new engine that has no relation to the AL-31 except that it is a turbofan engine of course.

The production of new engines is good for the company as the experience in manufacturing will keep them up to date and provide funding that can be used for further development and testing of new materials.

For example they could spend some money on a super computer to test thousands of designs a day, compared with a handful that could be built and tested over the same time period and for much more financial outlay(risk).

thanks sujoy and gary

cant wait for MR.putin ..waiting to see what other good deals we will get

ricky123 wrote:

thanks sujoy and gary

cant wait for MR.putin ..waiting to see what other good deals we will get

I suspect India will need more than 1000 engines because the TTSL of each AL-31FP is around 2,000 hours.Maybe arounf 1500 engines eventually but HAL needs to pull it's socks.

I suspect if the contract is through 2030, we will see Al-31s with longer lifespans.
RD-33MK and 117S engine life shows how much more can be squeezed out of Soviet designs in terms of overhaul life and service life.

NEW DELHI: India will soon ink defence deals worth around Rs 25,000 crore with Russia, including two mega ones for 42 more Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and 59 additional Mi-17 V5 armed helicopters.

This will reassert Russia's position as India's largest arms supplier despite Israel, France and US now snapping at its heels. But the expected inking of the final design contract for the joint development of a futuristic stealth fifth-generation fighter will not take place during Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit here on Monday since it is yet to be fully ironed out, sources said.

This R&D contract is pegged at $11 billion, with India and Russia supposed to chip in with $5.5 billion each. Each 5th Gen fighter - IAF hopes to induct around 200 of them from 2022 onwards - will cost at least $100 million extra. Consequently, as first reported by TOI earlier, India will eventually spend around $35 billion on this gigantic project.

During the meet with Putin, India will seek Russia's firm assurance that INS Vikramaditya, the refurbished 44,570-tonne Admiral Gorshkov for which $2.33 billion has been paid, is not delayed beyond the re-revised November 2013 delivery deadline.

New Delhi had earlier also planned to raise the "technical problems" being faced by its solitary nuclear-powered submarine INS Chakra, the Akula-II attack submarine leased from Russia for 10 years at a cost of around $1 billion. "But Moscow has assured the problem will be fixed soon," said a source.

The 42 new Sukhois, to be produced under licence by defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics, will add to the 230 Sukhois earlier contracted from Russia. Having inducted over 170 Sukhois till now, IAF is now progressively basing these "air dominance" fighters both on the western and eastern fronts with Pakistan and China. Overall, the price tag for the 272 Sukhois - three have crashed since induction - stands over $12 billion.

The medium-lift Mi-17 V5 helicopters (59 for IAF and 12 for home ministry/BSF), in turn, will add to the 80 such choppers already being inducted under a $1.34 billion deal inked in 2008.

While India has no plans to acquire more than 272 Sukhois, it has an upgrade plan to convert a bulk of them into 'Super Sukhois' in the years ahead with more advanced avionics, weapons and AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars. "Earlier, the plan was to upgrade 80 of them into 'Super Sukhois' at the cost of around Rs 10,900 crore. Now, the plan is being re-drawn," said the source.

I have not heard about any technical problems on the Chakra.

Any details?

TR1 wrote:I have not heard about any technical problems on the Chakra.

Any details?

no details so far .but i dont think the problems r big

India's only Russian-origin nuclear submarine INS Chakra is facing problems with its critical components which are malfunctioning and affecting its operational readiness. The 8,000-tonne submarine has been facing problems with its critical components and Russia has been asked to provide the parts for the vessel which need to be replaced, Navy sources said here.

However, they did not divulge the components which would have to be replaced but indicated they are critical for the operations of the submarine. India had inducted the Akula-II Class 'Nerpa' nuclear submarine in its inventory in April, 2012 at the Vishakhapatnam-based Eastern Naval Command. It was renamed 'Chakra' by the Indian Navy.

The Russian submarine had met with an accident in November 2008 when it was undergoing sea trials in the Sea of Japan in which around twenty sailors were killed and several others were left injured. The submarine was launched in 1993-94 but its construction was held up since then due to lack of funds with the Russian Navy.

However, in 2004, the Russian side decided to build it after reaching a ten-year lease agreement for operation of the submarine with the Indian side. With INS Chakra and the yet-to-be-inducted indigenously built INS Arihant, India is planning to have two nuclear submarines guarding its vast maritime boundary.

With a maximum speed of 30 knots, Chakra can go to a depth of 600 metres and has an endurance of 100 days with a crew of 73. However, as per the lease accord, it cannot carry nuclear warheads. The vessel is armed with four 533mm and four 650mm torpedo tubes. India had leased and operated a Charlie-class Russian nuclear submarine, also called 'Chakra', in 1988 for training its personnel on such submarines.

source