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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

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    Austin

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  Austin on Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:03 am

    Russian envoy: media unfair to Russian arms
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:57 am

    Thanks for the link Austin.

    The whole thing seems absurd. Did this blogger expect to get specifics regarding technology transfers on items of such sensitivity (for both India and Russia, re T-90)just because he sent some questions to the Russian embassy?

    The entitlement attitude of this guy is overwhelming.

    Speaking of feeble jokes, this from the guys article on the T-90 problems:
    Then HVF officials discovered that Russia had withheld key T-90S technologies without valid reason. This included technology for crucial components like the tank’s main gun and a key section of the turret armour. When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.

    What, does he seriously expect his readers to believe that during negotiations between the Indians and Russians it was not made clear certain technologies, like armor array, were secret, and would either be sold complete or a (slightly) lower performance export array be substituted? That has ALWAYS been the case with Russian exports, in sensitive technologies. I am not buying that during negotiations for such a huge # vehicles either

    1.)The Indian side was so incompetent as to not successfully understand the provisions of the armor transfer
    2.) or the Russian side so deviant to promise then not deliver the specific armor array. If he has firm evidence of this blatant lying by the Russian people, I would love to see it.

    Anyways, hopefully it works out. I would love to see the T-90MS find its way to India. Maybe they can buy turret design from Tagil (since the turret seems to be the slow process of licence production), and either buy complete turrets and build hulls in India (they seem to have no issues and lots of experience with the design) or phase introduction of the type throughout the decade. Potentially integrate stuff from the MS turret to the Arjun Mk2, like Relict.

    Now, to wait for Armata Wink
    You can be sure if India does buy another tank from Russia, I will go on his blog and comment about it.
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    GarryB

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    Russian envoy: media unfair to Russian arms

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:03 pm

    or the Russian side so deviant to promise then not deliver the specific armor array. If he has firm evidence of this blatant lying by the Russian people, I would love to see it.

    If it was agreed in the contract then Russia would not have a leg to stand on and India could sue, or demand satisfaction.

    The fact that they can't claim breach of contract clearly shows that the transfer of such things wasn't stipulated in the contract.

    If anything the Indians have a reputation for being careful and very complete and never rushed with their contract negotiations.

    If they wanted the Gorshkov so rapidly then taking 5 years to agree and sign a contract would mean things could have started in 2002 instead of 2005 and things would have been much quicker and cheaper because the increase in materials costs didn't happen till after 2006 and they would have gotten more done.

    Obviously it still would not have gotten in on time as they still would have found it to be in a worse state than they expected when they cracked it open, but I laugh at critics who suggest the Russians should have bourne that extra cost.

    When you buy a house and do a little routing maintainence and find the wiring and plumbing are in a critical state, you don't just patch up the wall and pretend everything is just fine before you hand it over to the new owners, because while you save a lot of money by not fixing it... and you don't have to live there so the power outages and fires caused by faulty wiring, not to mention the leaks and flooding caused by old pipes will be something the owner will have to live with... they will come to hate the house.

    Personally I think the Russians would have been better off to cancel the deal and keep the carrier for themselves.

    Regarding Armour in India, they really need to make a few decisions regarding their tank force as the cost of the T-90MS should make things interesting. It is twice the cost of the older T-90S, yet it is an obvious direct improvement over the base model... especially the new electronics including communications and battle management stuff, though the effect of this equipment is amplified if it is also present in other vehicles too. This means upgraded T-72s as a large body of good tanks, plus T-90S as a more expensive but more capable numbers tank, plus the indigenous quality tank, or breakthrough tank.

    The problem is when the T-90MS arrives and is rather more expensive than the T-90S... the question they have to ask themselves is... is this worth the extra cost and do we need the extra capabilities right now, or do we wait 5-10 years when the T-90MS is much cheaper and use it as an upgrade path for the T-90S then.

    If they buy 500 T-90MS tanks now, they will have 500 tanks with battle management systems... adding these to the T-90S will require turret enlargements and basically T-90MS upgrades that they might decide don't add enough capability for the cost.

    If their T-72 upgrades include BMS then it might work, though they might find their new T-90MS tanks and old T-72 tanks are better able to cooperate than their T-90S tanks.

    I assume the Arjun II has a BMS system that could be made compatible with the T-90S and T-72.
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    TR1

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    According to CAWAT, more than 60% of arms exports from the Russian federation in 2012 will end up in India

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:51 am

    http://www.ria.ru/defense_safety/20120120/544317046.html

    Wow, 2012 is a huge year for the Indian armed forces, and for the Russian suppliers. As it happens to be, a bunch of contracts being completed this year.

    -7.7 Billion dollars of equipment to be delivered in 2012.
    -The largest is the hand over of the Vikramaditya, planned for December 2012.
    -Hand over of 2 Talwar frigates.
    -Hand over of the Nerpa submarine.
    -Around 40 Mi-17V5.
    -21 license built Su-30MKI
    -12 completed Su-30MKI
    -9 MiG-29K
    -Continuation of MiG-29UPG program
    -Continuation of Tu-142 upgrades
    -Continuation of Mi-17 upgrades
    -Continuation of 877 submarine repair
    -Ka-31 delivery
    -Al-55 engine delivery
    -TRDD-50MT engine delivery
    -Delivery of Mi-17 trainers
    -Club-S launchers


    India will remain the worlds largest weapons importer in 2012.

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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:59 am

    That is impressive.

    BTW I think I remember seeing something about fitting out of the carrier in May or so, so there should be excellent photos of her from then onwards... I am really looking forward to seeing her at sea with aircraft on her deck...
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:29 pm

    Related to posts above:

    Russia Nears Tank Ammo Deal With India

    Russia is nearing a deal with India on manufacture and delivery of advanced tank ammunition, Rosoboronexport, a state-run arms exporter, said on Friday.

    “The first round of negotiations on the delivery of 3UBK20 (Mango) tank ammunition has been completed and the second round - on its licensed manufacture in India - will start on Monday,” company deputy head Igor Sevastyanov said.

    He did not specify the volume of deliveries, only saying it was “big.”

    Russia has already started building a joint venture in India to manufacture rockets for Smerch multiple rocket launch systems, he said.

    Another Rosoboronexport official, Viktor Komardin, earlier said Russian arms sales to India could be worth an estimated $3 billion a year.

    So they will buy the manufacturing rights to Mango and another unnamed round... I rather suspect they will further improve the Mango design themselves in production as a cheap standard mass production round with the other unnamed round being much more capable for use in war against serious threats.


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    Sujoy

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    Russia to deliver arms & ammunition worth $1 billion to India in 2012 - 2013

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:10 am

    Russia has finalised a contract for supply of ammunition worth $1 billion to India.At the beginning of this year Russia and India concluded the package of contracts to the tune of one billion dollars for the delivery of tanks and artillery shells, anti-tank missiles of various types and other ammunition for the Ground Troops.
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    Sujoy

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    Temporary thread

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:40 am

    VLADIMIR RADYUHIN

    Russia will set up licensed production of tank and rocket artillery ammunitions in India, top arms trade officials said here.

    “We are not only selling things, we are also setting up production facilities. Work has begun on establishing a joint venture in India to manufacture projectiles for Smerch multi-barrel mobile rocket launchers, ” Viktor Komardin, deputy head of Rosoboronexport, state arms exporter, told reporters at the Machine-Building Technologies-2012 defence show near here on Friday.

    Smerch (Tornado) fires 300-mm rockets powered by solid fuel engines to distances in the 20-90-km range. The rockets are 7.6 metres long and weigh 800 kg, including a 100-kg warhead. India has 42 Smerch launchers.
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:53 pm

    So looks like they are buying "Mango" tank shells.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:45 am

    AFAIK they are both buying them and also buying the production facilities to make them the way the Russians make them.

    They were also after another undisclosed round, which is probably more capable in case their neighbours start improving their armour to make its widespread adoption necessary. Most of the rounds produced after Mango until recently had DU in them so you really don't want that as your standard main gun round but I have read some of the current rounds use Tungsten.

    The problem is that the current rounds require upgraded guns and autoloaders and would not be much use to India without spending an enormous amount on upgrades.

    I rather suspect that the new unnamed round might have been redesigned to fit the older autoloaders and therefore would be useful to India and also to Russia as a standard export round to replace Mango.... but that is just speculation on my part.

    I think the important thing is that they had problems with ammo, and now it seems like they have addressed that problem.


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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:58 am

    Since the T-90s auto loader has been modified for longer rounds, I suspect and hope they buy more modern rounds in the upcoming years for the Bhishma; Mango can be used by the sizable T-72 fleet, which can stay viable till 2020 and past anyways with proper upgrades (of which there are many).
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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:45 am

    According to the "Gur Khan Attacks!" Blog ( http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgurkhan.blogspot.co.nz%2F2012%2F06%2Fblog-post_1842.html&sl=&tl=en )

    The second point concerns the APFSDS round of the latest developments.
    Currently, we have the caliber of 125mm taken into service two new shots, respectively, under the well-known ciphers, "Lead-1" and "Lead 2". My friends from India have repeatedly asked about the possibility of supplying Russia these new weapons. Theoretically, the barriers to the export of new APFSDS rounds with a tungsten core we have. If desired, the Indian government can always bring this matter to the joint working group on military-technical cooperation, and I think Russia has not refused to be constant in this issue reliable strategic partner. However, these new Russian APFSDS, were not demanded the Indian Army. Simply Indian war they do not have enough to shoot! The fact that these shots are quite long, and more power. For their application needs a new gun (instead of 2A46M5 2A46M standing on almost all Indian tanks) and a new automatic loader, adapted to their size. Replacement of guns and AZ will cost very expensive if we consider the entire fleet of T-72M1 and T-90S. This purely technical aspect of pulling of a serious economic, in fact, is the main obstacle to the delivery of the latest Russian BPS. But what about "their", the Indian ordnance?

    This suggests to me that the new long rod penetrators require both a new autoloader and a new gun, so they are not compatible with existing T-90s either ATM.

    Note we are talking about recently tested new rounds, not the 740mm Lekalo round which only requires what Fofanov calls a straight forward autoloader modification to use.

    These new rounds operate at higher pressures and require a new gun to fire safely. AFAIK.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Indian additional Su-30MKI orders:

    Post  Sujoy on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:37 pm

    India is all set to procure 42 Super Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat aircraft and 71 more Mil Mi-17V5 medium-lift helicopters from Russia.

    The issue was discussed during meeting between Defence Minister AK Antony and his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov in New Delhi and an agreement in this regard is expected to be signed during the visit of President Vladimir Putin on November 1, sources said.

    Under the procurement, India will buy 59 choppers for the IAF whereas the remaining will be used by the MHA and the Central Armed Police Forces (CAPF) most probably for anti-Naxal operations. Currently India operates 4 units (around 30-35) of Mil Mi-17V5 choppers , which were delivered in accordance to the deal signed in 2008 for the delivery of 80 Mil Mi-17V5s.. more choppers would be delivered by December this year.....the remaining deliveries would be completed by 2014...then after that the deliveries of the 71 others would start.... These choppers are replacing the old Mil Mi-8s and Mil Mi-17s of the Indian Air Force...



    Source : Hindustan Times
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    SOC

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  SOC on Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:54 am

    Are they buying the FLANKERs outright, or is this an addition to the license contract for Nasik?
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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  TR1 on Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:47 am

    SOC wrote:Are they buying the FLANKERs outright, or is this an addition to the license contract for Nasik?

    They are buying an additional batch of 42, but the news has been around for a while- the total number is still 270 birds.
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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:51 pm

    SOC wrote:Are they buying the FLANKERs outright, or is this an addition to the license contract for Nasik?

    The technology to manufacture Super Sukhois ( nose-mounted AESA-based MMR & wing-mounted L-band AWESA T/R modules, plus an uprated AL-31FP turbofan with 20% more thrust than what is available now , underbelly-launched BrahMos-1 among others )do not exist in Nashik so they will have to come from Russia. This is the first order for Super Sukhois . A 100 more Super Sukhois will be purchased in tranches . As of now it is expected that the remaining 100 will be manufactured in Nashik.
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    Viktor

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  Viktor on Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:06 pm

    Among the 42 Su-30MKI contract that is expected to be signed during Putin visit to India,

    the is something unexpected in the piping to much bigger than 42 Su-30MKI (worth 3.5bin$) and new 71 Mi-17V5 (??)

    cca 1000 AL-31FP licence production until 2030 worth 5bin $

    That will for sure give huge injection in Russia 5th generation engine.

    On the other hand its interesting to note huge contract Russia is getting for fighter engine production from China and now India.

    Somehow it seems to dwarf other contract

    Megakontrakt with India engines AL-31FP


    The newspaper " Vedomosti " in an article by Alexei Nikolsky "India put on the record," according to the conclusion of "Rosoboronexport" in October 2012, with India supergiant contract worth about $ 5 billion for the licensed production in India in 2030 aircraft engines AL- 31FP for the Su-30MKI. According to reports, it is a production in India 970 such engines. In fact, in India, will be assembling engines AL-31FP from components supplied by Russian companies. The first 50 engines so-called "zero-phase" (apparently almost ready) will be delivered in 2013. This megakontrakt with India to a large extent, allowed the Russian defense exports reach a record level of $ 15 billion of new contracts signed in 2012 year. Another major contract, allowing a sum of $ 15 billion, an agreement to supply India 42 additional Su-30MKI fighters, finalization of which is to be held during the visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to New Delhi, scheduled for December 24, 2012.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/410074.html

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  ricky123 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:03 pm

    Viktor wrote:Among the 42 Su-30MKI contract that is expected to be signed during Putin visit to India,

    the is something unexpected in the piping to much bigger than 42 Su-30MKI (worth 3.5bin$) and new 71 Mi-17V5 (??)

    cca 1000 AL-31FP licence production until 2030 worth 5bin $

    That will for sure give huge injection in Russia 5th generation engine.

    On the other hand its interesting to note huge contract Russia is getting for fighter engine production from China and now India.

    Somehow it seems to dwarf other contract

    Megakontrakt with India engines AL-31FP


    The newspaper " Vedomosti " in an article by Alexei Nikolsky "India put on the record," according to the conclusion of "Rosoboronexport" in October 2012, with India supergiant contract worth about $ 5 billion for the licensed production in India in 2030 aircraft engines AL- 31FP for the Su-30MKI. According to reports, it is a production in India 970 such engines. In fact, in India, will be assembling engines AL-31FP from components supplied by Russian companies. The first 50 engines so-called "zero-phase" (apparently almost ready) will be delivered in 2013. This megakontrakt with India to a large extent, allowed the Russian defense exports reach a record level of $ 15 billion of new contracts signed in 2012 year. Another major contract, allowing a sum of $ 15 billion, an agreement to supply India 42 additional Su-30MKI fighters, finalization of which is to be held during the visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to New Delhi, scheduled for December 24, 2012.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/410074.html

    what will india do with 1000 engines ??? scratch
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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  Viktor on Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:06 pm

    ricky123 wrote:what will india do with 1000 engines ??? scratch

    Well close to 300 Su-30MKI up to 2030. Thats summons it all.

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  ricky123 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:20 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    ricky123 wrote:what will india do with 1000 engines ??? scratch

    Well close to 300 Su-30MKI up to 2030. Thats summons it all.
    and these r only for su30mki .... not the pakfa right ???

    i could understand to keep 300 extra engines as spares but 1000 dont u think it is abit too much ?? and what other benefits will indians get from this deal ??
    and 1000 engines for only $5bil ?
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    Sujoy

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:35 am

    ricky123 wrote:
    i could understand to keep 300 extra engines as spares but 1000 dont u think it is abit too much ??

    Actually 300 engines are not enough given the fact that India has close to 160 SU 30 MKIs and no major engine overhaul has taken place in the last 5 years . India will be producing 1000 such engines in house not at one go but through 2020

    HAL is presently three years behind schedule when it comes to setting up depot-level MRO facilities for the Su-30MKI

    ricky123 wrote:and what other benefits will indians get from this deal ??

    The SUPER SUKHOI deal is a breakthrough deal . It transforms the SU 30 MKI from an air dominance aircraft to an air superiority aircraft making them possibly the most potent 4 ++ gen aircraft anywhere in the world.

    ricky123 wrote:and these r only for su30mki .... not the pakfa right ???

    Only for SU 30 MKI and Super Sukhois not for PAK FA .The AL 41F engine ( 117 ) is still being fine tuned in Russia .

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  ricky123 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:54 am

    thanks Very Happy how is this going to help russia .. i mean for the development of 5th gen engines ?
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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:12 am

    A sales contract for 1,000 engines means building a factory in India and training Indian workers to assemble the engines, and sending the components to India for assembly... that should result in full order books for a few years, which should mean they will be able to get bank loans to upgrade equipment and tooling in their own factories, which should help improve quality and reduce production costs which maximises profit from further sales and enables more exotic materials to become affordable and the new machines necessary to work such new exotic materials like ceramics and high strength metal alloys for new engine designs, which means better performance over a wider performance envelope.

    Very simply if the company can take a signed contract with India for 1,000 engines to a bank manager then they are more likely to get a large loan for new machines etc than if they had to go cap in hand with newspaper clippings showing Russian AF generals claiming to want x number of Su-35s by 2020.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  ricky123 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:17 am

    the reason i asked is cuz this deal is only for $5bil .will it have enough money left over for the company for r and d for other 5th gen engines ???
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    Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:53 am

    The profits and production work should go towards maintaining and improving a skilled workforce, and using new toolings and new materials etc etc.

    This translates into a company that can then invest in new technolgies and explore new areas of design or materials to further improve their own work.

    They will have areas where they could learn from the west, but they will also be exploring areas the west might have tried and failed at, or the west has dismissed as not viable, which could lead to a breakthrough of their own.

    Saturn are working hard on new engines and extra contracts will only be good for them.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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