RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

India will order 42 Su-30MKI

Indian Air Force is going to order an extra batch of 42 Su-30MKI license assembly which will deal with the company Hindustan Aeronautics, said Flightglobal. When it was planned to conclude a contract for the delivery of new aircraft is still unknown. To date, the Hindustan Aeronautics has orders for 180 combat aircraft, 130 of which have been transferred to the Indian Air Force.

It is expected that up to 2020 in service with India will be 272 Su-30MKI, which form the basis of the fighter fleet of the country. Beginning in 2012, the Ministry of Defence of India intends to upgrade all existing in service with the country's Su-30MKI. As expected, part of the aircraft will be improved in one of the Russian companies, while upgrading the remaining machines will be licensed to engage in an Indian company Hindustan Aeronautics.

In mid-December 2010 reported that the Indian Air Force is going to equip the Su-30MKI radar "Zhuk-AE" with an active phased array antenna production of the Russian company Fazotron. As expected, the new radars will be installed at Indian aircraft, when the program starts large-scale modernization of the Su-30MKI. Currently, the Su-30MKI fighters worth radars with passive phased array N011M.

Whither India-Russia relations?


A Russian TV channel screens a Hindi movie every Friday night complete with dubbing or subtitles. And Bollywood song and dance routines are a hit with Russian teenagers.

But there are other undercurrents. Seven of us - all Indians - boarded the Krasnaya Strella night train to Moscow from St Petersburg. One of the attendants on the train was overheard remarking: the Indians have taken over the train! The observation sounded racist to some of us although it may not have been so intended. We experienced no overt display of racism in the streets, on the contrary people were cooperative once they understood our requirement conveyed in bad Russian.

That said, there's no doubt that despite broad support at the highest levels of government in both capitals, the India-Russia relationship is adrift, with virtually no backing from a largely indifferent mid level bureaucracy. There are no big ideas, no multi-billion dollar trade figures comparable to say India and China. (The nuclear trade looks uncertain at this point given international strictures and opposition from within India to nuclear plants).

The impact is most visible in defence, seen as the pillar of the relationship. The rejection of the MiG-35 fighter in the early stages of India's MMRCA competition has left many Russians feeling slighted. Delhi's choice of the American C-17 cargo aircraft has left others incredulous: "You are ready to pay $4 billion for 10 aircraft, which means each aircraft costs $500 million. And you still say the Russian Il-78 cargo aircraft is expensive even though it costs much less. That's politics."

The Russians realise the market they've dominated for three decades is coming to an end. It's visible in the empty order books of Russian naval shipyards once the last line of Talwar class frigates are delivered in the next few years.

The Russians are hoping to win the order for six conventional submarines to be built in India under technology transfer, but they know there will be competition. They've already signed up with the Spanish submarine maker Navantia. They're exploring other options, for instance, a high speed patrol boat for the Navy and Coast Guard called the Mangust. It's faster than any patrol boat presently in the navy's inventory. They are also pushing helicopters which every Indian air force and naval pilot acknowledges are rugged and reliable.

But many sections of the Indian military have been driven to frustration by Russia's bureaucracy, the delay in supply of spares, and the lack of timely maintenance support. Indian procedures are also to blame. There seems to be little forward thinking, almost no systematic approach to procurement and unfortunately, no lack of money!

Given the size of the Indian gravy train, the hunger is for the best and so the hunt for options. Options also lessen dependence on one source, a cardinal and expanding India principle. So while Ruskie dominance will end, perhaps Bollywood will endure

First of all the comment on the train:

The x have invaded the train.

If you had been a group of Australians would the comment be racist... especially in regard to the fact that Australian is not a race?

If a large number of Germans got on board the train and the comment was that the Germans have invaded the train... would that be racist... German not being a race either.

I have heard racist remarks made when people of distinctly different ethnicity got onto a bus and I can tell you your example sounds harmless.

A large group of Russians get on an Indian train and someone comments the Russians are coming is it worth making a big deal out of it? I don't think so.

Delhi's choice of the American C-17 cargo aircraft has left others incredulous: "You are ready to pay $4 billion for 10 aircraft, which means each aircraft costs $500 million. And you still say the Russian Il-78 cargo aircraft is expensive even though it costs much less. That's politics."

That is not politics... it is a double standard. It took 10 years to negotiate the sale of an aircraft carrier and air wing for India with endless complaints about price increases that both sides can certainly take some blame for yet at the end of the day you will end up with a reasonable carrier for slightly more than half the cost of your deal to buy 10 transport aircraft!!!
It seems sometimes you are prepared to spend money and sometimes you are not.

Problems with Mig-21s seems to stem from not wanting to spend on Russian spare parts and instead buying them from dodgy venders with dodgy parts in eastern europe.
The Mig-29K is a brand new aircraft yet you are already having shortages of spare parts... sounds to me like you skimped on the spare parts pool and the delays come from the fact that there are relatively few Mig-29Ks in service so if you didn't order any spare parts then they haven't been made yet... which kinda makes the delay understandable.

As the sole user of the Mig-29K currently who is to blame?

The Russians realise the market they've dominated for three decades is coming to an end.

Dominated? I guess the Russians can be proud of all those Mirage 2000s and Jaguar aircraft they managed to sell to India, not to mention the carrier and Sea Harriers and Sea Kings.

It's visible in the empty order books of Russian naval shipyards once the last line of Talwar class frigates are delivered in the next few years.

Those shipyards will likely be upgraded and will also likely be starting production of vessels as well as upgrading some Russian navy vessels... the Kuznetsov carrier, three Kirov class cruisers, and three Akula SSBN (NATO TYPHOON) class vessels plus up to four Slava class cruisers all needing significant upgrades and that is not even considering new subs and ships for the Russian Navy... and of course two Mistral class carriers and some modern support vessels to operate with them.

Russian envoy: media unfair to Russian arms

Thanks for the link Austin.

The whole thing seems absurd. Did this blogger expect to get specifics regarding technology transfers on items of such sensitivity (for both India and Russia, re T-90)just because he sent some questions to the Russian embassy?

The entitlement attitude of this guy is overwhelming.

Speaking of feeble jokes, this from the guys article on the T-90 problems:
Then HVF officials discovered that Russia had withheld key T-90S technologies without valid reason. This included technology for crucial components like the tank’s main gun and a key section of the turret armour. When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.

What, does he seriously expect his readers to believe that during negotiations between the Indians and Russians it was not made clear certain technologies, like armor array, were secret, and would either be sold complete or a (slightly) lower performance export array be substituted? That has ALWAYS been the case with Russian exports, in sensitive technologies. I am not buying that during negotiations for such a huge # vehicles either

1.)The Indian side was so incompetent as to not successfully understand the provisions of the armor transfer
2.) or the Russian side so deviant to promise then not deliver the specific armor array. If he has firm evidence of this blatant lying by the Russian people, I would love to see it.

Anyways, hopefully it works out. I would love to see the T-90MS find its way to India. Maybe they can buy turret design from Tagil (since the turret seems to be the slow process of licence production), and either buy complete turrets and build hulls in India (they seem to have no issues and lots of experience with the design) or phase introduction of the type throughout the decade. Potentially integrate stuff from the MS turret to the Arjun Mk2, like Relict.

Now, to wait for Armata
You can be sure if India does buy another tank from Russia, I will go on his blog and comment about it.

or the Russian side so deviant to promise then not deliver the specific armor array. If he has firm evidence of this blatant lying by the Russian people, I would love to see it.

If it was agreed in the contract then Russia would not have a leg to stand on and India could sue, or demand satisfaction.

The fact that they can't claim breach of contract clearly shows that the transfer of such things wasn't stipulated in the contract.

If anything the Indians have a reputation for being careful and very complete and never rushed with their contract negotiations.

If they wanted the Gorshkov so rapidly then taking 5 years to agree and sign a contract would mean things could have started in 2002 instead of 2005 and things would have been much quicker and cheaper because the increase in materials costs didn't happen till after 2006 and they would have gotten more done.

Obviously it still would not have gotten in on time as they still would have found it to be in a worse state than they expected when they cracked it open, but I laugh at critics who suggest the Russians should have bourne that extra cost.

When you buy a house and do a little routing maintainence and find the wiring and plumbing are in a critical state, you don't just patch up the wall and pretend everything is just fine before you hand it over to the new owners, because while you save a lot of money by not fixing it... and you don't have to live there so the power outages and fires caused by faulty wiring, not to mention the leaks and flooding caused by old pipes will be something the owner will have to live with... they will come to hate the house.

Personally I think the Russians would have been better off to cancel the deal and keep the carrier for themselves.

Regarding Armour in India, they really need to make a few decisions regarding their tank force as the cost of the T-90MS should make things interesting. It is twice the cost of the older T-90S, yet it is an obvious direct improvement over the base model... especially the new electronics including communications and battle management stuff, though the effect of this equipment is amplified if it is also present in other vehicles too. This means upgraded T-72s as a large body of good tanks, plus T-90S as a more expensive but more capable numbers tank, plus the indigenous quality tank, or breakthrough tank.

The problem is when the T-90MS arrives and is rather more expensive than the T-90S... the question they have to ask themselves is... is this worth the extra cost and do we need the extra capabilities right now, or do we wait 5-10 years when the T-90MS is much cheaper and use it as an upgrade path for the T-90S then.

If they buy 500 T-90MS tanks now, they will have 500 tanks with battle management systems... adding these to the T-90S will require turret enlargements and basically T-90MS upgrades that they might decide don't add enough capability for the cost.

If their T-72 upgrades include BMS then it might work, though they might find their new T-90MS tanks and old T-72 tanks are better able to cooperate than their T-90S tanks.

I assume the Arjun II has a BMS system that could be made compatible with the T-90S and T-72.

http://www.ria.ru/defense_safety/20120120/544317046.html

Wow, 2012 is a huge year for the Indian armed forces, and for the Russian suppliers. As it happens to be, a bunch of contracts being completed this year.

-7.7 Billion dollars of equipment to be delivered in 2012.
-The largest is the hand over of the Vikramaditya, planned for December 2012.
-Hand over of 2 Talwar frigates.
-Hand over of the Nerpa submarine.
-Around 40 Mi-17V5.
-21 license built Su-30MKI
-12 completed Su-30MKI
-9 MiG-29K
-Continuation of MiG-29UPG program
-Continuation of Tu-142 upgrades
-Continuation of Mi-17 upgrades
-Continuation of 877 submarine repair
-Ka-31 delivery
-Al-55 engine delivery
-TRDD-50MT engine delivery
-Delivery of Mi-17 trainers
-Club-S launchers


India will remain the worlds largest weapons importer in 2012.

That is impressive.

BTW I think I remember seeing something about fitting out of the carrier in May or so, so there should be excellent photos of her from then onwards... I am really looking forward to seeing her at sea with aircraft on her deck...

Related to posts above:

Russia Nears Tank Ammo Deal With India

Russia is nearing a deal with India on manufacture and delivery of advanced tank ammunition, Rosoboronexport, a state-run arms exporter, said on Friday.

“The first round of negotiations on the delivery of 3UBK20 (Mango) tank ammunition has been completed and the second round - on its licensed manufacture in India - will start on Monday,” company deputy head Igor Sevastyanov said.

He did not specify the volume of deliveries, only saying it was “big.”

Russia has already started building a joint venture in India to manufacture rockets for Smerch multiple rocket launch systems, he said.

Another Rosoboronexport official, Viktor Komardin, earlier said Russian arms sales to India could be worth an estimated $3 billion a year.

So they will buy the manufacturing rights to Mango and another unnamed round... I rather suspect they will further improve the Mango design themselves in production as a cheap standard mass production round with the other unnamed round being much more capable for use in war against serious threats.

Russia has finalised a contract for supply of ammunition worth $1 billion to India.At the beginning of this year Russia and India concluded the package of contracts to the tune of one billion dollars for the delivery of tanks and artillery shells, anti-tank missiles of various types and other ammunition for the Ground Troops.

VLADIMIR RADYUHIN

Russia will set up licensed production of tank and rocket artillery ammunitions in India, top arms trade officials said here.

“We are not only selling things, we are also setting up production facilities. Work has begun on establishing a joint venture in India to manufacture projectiles for Smerch multi-barrel mobile rocket launchers, ” Viktor Komardin, deputy head of Rosoboronexport, state arms exporter, told reporters at the Machine-Building Technologies-2012 defence show near here on Friday.

Smerch (Tornado) fires 300-mm rockets powered by solid fuel engines to distances in the 20-90-km range. The rockets are 7.6 metres long and weigh 800 kg, including a 100-kg warhead. India has 42 Smerch launchers.

So looks like they are buying "Mango" tank shells.

AFAIK they are both buying them and also buying the production facilities to make them the way the Russians make them.

They were also after another undisclosed round, which is probably more capable in case their neighbours start improving their armour to make its widespread adoption necessary. Most of the rounds produced after Mango until recently had DU in them so you really don't want that as your standard main gun round but I have read some of the current rounds use Tungsten.

The problem is that the current rounds require upgraded guns and autoloaders and would not be much use to India without spending an enormous amount on upgrades.

I rather suspect that the new unnamed round might have been redesigned to fit the older autoloaders and therefore would be useful to India and also to Russia as a standard export round to replace Mango.... but that is just speculation on my part.

I think the important thing is that they had problems with ammo, and now it seems like they have addressed that problem.

Since the T-90s auto loader has been modified for longer rounds, I suspect and hope they buy more modern rounds in the upcoming years for the Bhishma; Mango can be used by the sizable T-72 fleet, which can stay viable till 2020 and past anyways with proper upgrades (of which there are many).

According to the "Gur Khan Attacks!" Blog ( http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgurkhan.blogspot.co.nz%2F2012%2F06%2Fblog-post_1842.html&sl=&tl=en )

The second point concerns the APFSDS round of the latest developments.
Currently, we have the caliber of 125mm taken into service two new shots, respectively, under the well-known ciphers, "Lead-1" and "Lead 2". My friends from India have repeatedly asked about the possibility of supplying Russia these new weapons. Theoretically, the barriers to the export of new APFSDS rounds with a tungsten core we have. If desired, the Indian government can always bring this matter to the joint working group on military-technical cooperation, and I think Russia has not refused to be constant in this issue reliable strategic partner. However, these new Russian APFSDS, were not demanded the Indian Army. Simply Indian war they do not have enough to shoot! The fact that these shots are quite long, and more power. For their application needs a new gun (instead of 2A46M5 2A46M standing on almost all Indian tanks) and a new automatic loader, adapted to their size. Replacement of guns and AZ will cost very expensive if we consider the entire fleet of T-72M1 and T-90S. This purely technical aspect of pulling of a serious economic, in fact, is the main obstacle to the delivery of the latest Russian BPS. But what about "their", the Indian ordnance?

This suggests to me that the new long rod penetrators require both a new autoloader and a new gun, so they are not compatible with existing T-90s either ATM.

Note we are talking about recently tested new rounds, not the 740mm Lekalo round which only requires what Fofanov calls a straight forward autoloader modification to use.

These new rounds operate at higher pressures and require a new gun to fire safely. AFAIK.

Russian President Vladimir Putin, who was believed to travel to India in October 2012 for the 13th annual Indo-Russian summit, will now be visiting India in November, Indian diplomatic sources told RIR.

The change in the Russian President’s plans has nothing to do with reports in the Pakistani media that Putin will be making a maiden visit to India’s neighbour in the middle of October 2012. The Pakistani media has given extensive coverage about Putin’s upcoming visit to Islamabad and analysts in that country have described it as a sort of game-changer considering that no Russian President has ever visited Pakistan before.

India is all set to procure 42 Super Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat aircraft and 71 more Mil Mi-17V5 medium-lift helicopters from Russia.

The issue was discussed during meeting between Defence Minister AK Antony and his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov in New Delhi and an agreement in this regard is expected to be signed during the visit of President Vladimir Putin on November 1, sources said.

Under the procurement, India will buy 59 choppers for the IAF whereas the remaining will be used by the MHA and the Central Armed Police Forces (CAPF) most probably for anti-Naxal operations. Currently India operates 4 units (around 30-35) of Mil Mi-17V5 choppers , which were delivered in accordance to the deal signed in 2008 for the delivery of 80 Mil Mi-17V5s.. more choppers would be delivered by December this year.....the remaining deliveries would be completed by 2014...then after that the deliveries of the 71 others would start.... These choppers are replacing the old Mil Mi-8s and Mil Mi-17s of the Indian Air Force...

Source : Hindustan Times

Are they buying the FLANKERs outright, or is this an addition to the license contract for Nasik?

SOC wrote:Are they buying the FLANKERs outright, or is this an addition to the license contract for Nasik?

They are buying an additional batch of 42, but the news has been around for a while- the total number is still 270 birds.

SOC wrote:Are they buying the FLANKERs outright, or is this an addition to the license contract for Nasik?

The technology to manufacture Super Sukhois ( nose-mounted AESA-based MMR & wing-mounted L-band AWESA T/R modules, plus an uprated AL-31FP turbofan with 20% more thrust than what is available now , underbelly-launched BrahMos-1 among others )do not exist in Nashik so they will have to come from Russia. This is the first order for Super Sukhois . A 100 more Super Sukhois will be purchased in tranches . As of now it is expected that the remaining 100 will be manufactured in Nashik.

Russian President has postponed his visit to New Delhi by about 8 weeks, Russian and Indian officials said on Tuesday. The Russian Government conveyed to the Indian Ministry of External Affairs that the visit was postponed due to a “domestic issue.”
Senior officials in the Russian and Indian governments told RIR that the postponement had to do with the Russian president’s unhappiness with the outcome of Russian deputy prime minister Dmitry Rogozin’s visit to India. On Monday, rumours about an indefinite postponement were doing the rounds in diplomatic circles, but spokesmen for both the Russian Embassy in New Delhi and the Indian Embassy in Moscow denied such talk. Certain Indian diplomatic sources had even hinted that such rumours were at the behest of elements in Pakistan disgruntled with the fact that Putin indefinitely put off a visit to that country.

The likely causes of the postponement are what Russia considers India’s lack of initiative in solving Sistema’s 2G license suspension and the fact that India decided to include the 3rd and 4th units of Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant within the new civil nuclear liability law. While it is unlikely that India will change its stance on the reactors or take a more proactive role in the Sistema case, the two sides agreed to December 24 as the date of the Russian president’s visit to New Delhi.

While diplomatic relations between Russia and India remain strong, Moscow has been wary of what it considers a cosying up of relations between New Delhi and the United States. The postponement of Putin’s visit after a series of preparatory meetings were held in the Indian capital is unlikely to go down well with the Indian Government.

A host of Russian cultural programmes that were due to coincide with the Russian president’s visit will be held as planned.

this is really stupid.i used to like pputin. but by puttin off his visit.he is only telling india that thier relationship is only bussiness.
russia should keep in mind that india cannot overrule the supremecourt togive license to russian Sistema..and neither can india help russia in the nuclear plant issue.it just wont happen .i dont know what putin is trying to achieve here .. really very disappointed

You do understand international leaders postpone visits and out right cancel them all the time?

Domestic issues are more important than even India.
These rumors are just that- I HIGHLY doubt, Putin, who is not new to international relations, got butthurt and decided to not visit India as a result.

TR1 wrote:You do understand international leaders postpone visits and out right cancel them all the time?

Domestic issues are more important than even India.
These rumors are just that- I HIGHLY doubt, Putin, who is not new to international relations, got butthurt and decided to not visit India as a result.

i totally agree . but this time it is really the same reason above which i mentioned
cuz putin's deputy who is in india now also made these comments but stayed short of saying these were thee real reason for postponment of the visit ......he just said that they want all agreements to be in place before putin comes to india so the visit adds more substance....

.plus there is another problem . apart from the nuclear plant being included in the liability law. india has to inform moscow about the escalating cost. and there r tons of cultural programes india had arranged for putin.which now will still go on without putin in the country..

ricky123 wrote:he is only telling india that thier relationship is only bussiness.

Off course it's business. That is India's choice anyway for some time now (since the 90's)...

Here's another 'friendly' gesture

US pips Russia as 'lowest bidder' for heavy-lift 15-chopper deal

NEW DELHI: The US is now all set to bag yet another mega Indian defence deal, with the iconic Boeing-manufactured Chinook heavy-lift helicopters emerging as the cheaper option than its strong contender the Russian Mi-26 choppers....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/US-pips-Russia-as-lowest-bidder-for-heavy-lift-15-chopper-deal/articleshow/16985381.cms

Cyberspec wrote:

ricky123 wrote:he is only telling india that thier relationship is only bussiness.

Off course it's business. That is India's choice anyway for some time now (since the 90's)...

Here's another 'friendly' gesture

US pips Russia as 'lowest bidder' for heavy-lift 15-chopper deal

NEW DELHI: The US is now all set to bag yet another mega Indian defence deal, with the iconic Boeing-manufactured Chinook heavy-lift helicopters emerging as the cheaper option than its strong contender the Russian Mi-26 choppers....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/US-pips-Russia-as-lowest-bidder-for-heavy-lift-15-chopper-deal/articleshow/16985381.cms

russia has itself to blame . currupt officials .project delays .bribing indian officers all those add up .plus if india is shifting then it is cuz the russian left a vaccum in the relationship.. russia still want to play buyer and seller kind of a thing. but the americans from the start if u look at all pressi breifings they call india a equal partner or a strategic ally ...u can say americans have better PR skills ... what has happened is russia took india for granted .but even today no other country can match russia in the tot that they give india .maybe france but france has very little to offer ..i dont know why but russia is increasingly looking to the west mostly europe instead of concentrating on the east . the west economies are in shambles .but if ulook at all the eastern countries they r doing pretty well .

i think russia can still pull it back in .cuz the people to people relations between russia and india is very good .almost evry1 trust and respect russians in india..

but remember there r no permamnent friends or foe in this great game.