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PAK-DA: News

GunshipDemocracy

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Post n°301

Re: PAK-DA: News

GunshipDemocracy Sun May 31, 2015 4:45 am

GarryB wrote:

Equally they could explore making the new Blackjacks rather faster with upgraded engines perhaps allowing high mach supercruising... it is all very interesting...

First requirements for T-160 was assuming top speed on3200-3300km/h level. thisidea was dropped due to enormous fuel consumption and less range. But after 40years...

Some time ago there was news about Russian manufacturers mastere pulse detonation wave engine.

Maybe hybrid engines (f-22 does not have them?) can move T-160M to 3 MA+ range. OK I am fantasizing now, but love to see this. Such a bomber could really pretty prompt deliver hypersonic missiles an return safe to base Smile

mutantsushi

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Post n°302

Re: PAK-DA: News

mutantsushi Sun May 31, 2015 6:55 am

um, yeah, that seems more likely the engine which would power some hypersonic cruise missile...

GunshipDemocracy

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Post n°303

Re: PAK-DA: News

GunshipDemocracy Sun May 31, 2015 11:39 am

mutantsushi wrote:um, yeah, that seems more likely the engine which would power some hypersonic cruise missile...

Scramjet seems to be better above Mach 5-7 BUT PDWE can work from subsonic till Ma 5 pretty well and is fairly simple in mechanical construction (no moving turbines)

GarryB

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Post n°304

Re: PAK-DA: News

GarryB Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:08 am

First requirements for T-160 was assuming top speed on3200-3300km/h level. thisidea was dropped due to enormous fuel consumption and less range. But after 40years...

I was thinking more about Mach 1-1.8 cruising without ABs to increase average speed and reduce fuel consumption... going for mach 3 would be rather more difficult as more exotic materials would be needed to deal with friction heat.

It would certainly be possible in terms of engines... they could take the easy route and have a bypass air channel to act as a ramjet above mach 2... that would be very efficient... they have enormous experience with mach 2-5 ramjet engines...

George1

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Post n°305

Re: PAK-DA: News

George1 Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:46 pm

"United Engine Corporation" (UEC) conducted its first engine test for the PAK-DA

marcellogo

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Post n°306

Re: PAK-DA: News

marcellogo Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:47 pm

GarryB wrote:

First requirements for T-160 was assuming top speed on3200-3300km/h level. thisidea was dropped due to enormous fuel consumption and less range. But after 40years...

I was thinking more about Mach 1-1.8 cruising without ABs to increase average speed and reduce fuel consumption... going for mach 3 would be rather more difficult as more exotic materials would be needed to deal with friction heat.

It would certainly be possible in terms of engines... they could take the easy route and have a bypass air channel to act as a ramjet above mach 2... that would be very efficient... they have enormous experience with mach 2-5 ramjet engines...

In my opinion a new higly supersonic strategic bomber would be a smart move for Russia working in exploiting one definite drawback of future USAF fleet.
As soon as they would shift completely to f-35 they would havej ust an handful of planes suitable to intercept or follow such type of targets.

Put a squadron of them making a routine circuit between Alaska and Hawaii and another one passing in front of Virginia and Florida and you would not have to worry anymore about F-22 being deployed near you or your allies. tongue

Ranxerox71

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Post n°307

Re: PAK-DA: News

Ranxerox71 Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:43 pm

mutantsushi wrote:The idea that creating an all new engine for PAKDA is unfeasible because it is supposed to be having test flights by 2018 seems absurd - PAKFA development shows how early test flights can be achieved with last gen engine, with next gen engine entering service when ready/ideally with first large serial batches.

Anyways, it seems likely that doing so would be more expensive, and that upgraded last-gen engines provide sufficient performance, which is a legitimate reason (if different from the one given). Options include being based off PS-90 or NK-321 generator, the latter going into Tu-160 modernization... Which makes me wonder whether a further modernization of NK-32(1) would allow improvements which could then be retrofitted onto Tu-160 fleet, i.e if the components are modularly replaceable, then when a given part completes it's normal service life on a NK-321 powered Tu-160, then it can be replaced with the enhanced equivalent part from the PAKDA engine. It even seems that a new gas generator design could be used, adapted so that it would be 'compatable' with the NK-321 design so that they are able to share other components....?

I just can agree whit you, first i can't understand any needs for subsonic strategic bomber....

Little story about B-2 over Serbia 99:

Only meaningful strategic bomber must be fastest possible, it will better if he can have possibility of high over sound speed super cruise around 1.6 mach, and in terminal phase of approaching to the place of firing then he need to achieve 3.0 mach,*that speed will be something which made this new bomber practically invincible he have not need to be big like Tu 160, on first place, because, volume of cruise nuclear missile today can be respectable smaller then present one, and he can carry in two separate nish 12 of same which mean 24 at least..Other approach will be high level of Stealth, extreme high level which mean passive and active (in version whit subsonic speed) But problem whit Stealth and Bomber is obvious , so i also think that will be much better that like on PAK FA exist measure of Stealth passive and active, but which wouldn't made from project logistic night mare

GarryB

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Post n°308

Re: PAK-DA: News

GarryB Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:18 pm

When they were working on the Tu-22M0 the requirement was for a mach three bomber... like the valkyrie... Sukhoi proposed the T-4, but tupolev was given the job of actually building it, but as Tupolev correctly pointed out... making a bomber mach 3 did not make it any safer... it meant the aircraft had to fly high and very straight and modern SAM missiles of the time would eat them up for breakfast.

Most importantly was cost... at the time to make a mach 2 large bomber cost... say 200 million dollars.. to make it mach 3 would drive the purchase cost by 7-8 times and would increase costs of operation and ownership by 10 or 20 times, yet the aircraft themselves would still be vulnerable to enemy SAMs the way a much cheaper and simpler bomber would.

the solution was the Tu-22M0 which reduced the speed requirements dramatically, and also reduced the speed requirements for the later strategic bomber Tu-160... the difference you will notice... the Valkyrie was cancelled as being too expensive and yet at the same time vulnerable, while the Backfire and Blackjack both entered service.

Currently however with new jet engine technology like scramjets the higher speed could be achievable without greatly increasing purchase prices and operational costs so I think it is certainly worth investigating right now.

George1

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Post n°309

Re: PAK-DA: News

George1 Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:54 pm

Russia's Next-Gen Strategic Bomber to Make Maiden Flight in 2023-2024

PAK DA, Russia's fifth generation long-range bomber powered by a new engine (both in development), is expected to make its maiden flight in less than a decade, United Engine Corporation's (UEC) CEO Vladislav Masalov said.

The aircraft is expected to be equipped with an operational engine by the time it takes off for the first time in 2023-2024, he added.

Earlier this week, reports emerged that Russia's United Instrument Manufacturing Corporation (UIMC) was developing a one-of-a-kind communications system for the PAK DA. The system will be capable of analyzing its state, making adjustments based on these findings and switching its operation modes.

The stealthy PAK DA, developed by the Tupolev design bureau, will fly at subsonic speeds and is designed to carry out missions which are currently assigned to three aircraft, the Tupolev Tu-160, the Tu-95MS and the Tupolev Tu-22M3.

The design for the PAK DA is believed to have been finalized and the project is currently in the next stage, which entails building a prototype.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150714/1024610827.html#ixzz3fsDnM7MV

Mak Sime

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Post n°310

Re: PAK-DA: News

Mak Sime Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:19 pm

George1 wrote:Russia's Next-Gen Strategic Bomber to Make Maiden Flight in 2023-2024

PAK DA, Russia's fifth generation long-range bomber powered by a new engine (both in development), is expected to make its maiden flight in less than a decade, United Engine Corporation's (UEC) CEO Vladislav Masalov said.

The aircraft is expected to be equipped with an operational engine by the time it takes off for the first time in 2023-2024, he added.

Earlier this week, reports emerged that Russia's United Instrument Manufacturing Corporation (UIMC) was developing a one-of-a-kind communications system for the PAK DA. The system will be capable of analyzing its state, making adjustments based on these findings and switching its operation modes.

The stealthy PAK DA, developed by the Tupolev design bureau, will fly at subsonic speeds and is designed to carry out missions which are currently assigned to three aircraft, the Tupolev Tu-160, the Tu-95MS and the Tupolev Tu-22M3.

The design for the PAK DA is believed to have been finalized and the project is currently in the next stage, which entails building a prototype.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150714/1024610827.html#ixzz3fsDnM7MV

PAK-DA Russian 5th generation bomber concept art

Nope.
Sukhoi T-4MS model.
http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/t/4/ms/t4ms_e.htm

Werewolf

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Post n°311

Re: PAK-DA: News

Werewolf Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:51 pm

It should make a Maidan flight...

Mak Sime

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Post n°312

Re: PAK-DA: News

Mak Sime Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:53 pm

Werewolf wrote:It should make a Maidan flight...

Good one.

Viktor

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Post n°313

Re: PAK-DA: News

Viktor Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:27 pm

So like in PAK-FA case, PAK-FA too will have two engine solution where Kuz-M will power the PAK-DA from 2019-2024 when PAK-DA will make its maiden flight on a

brand new engines new developed for it. Nice thumbsup

higurashihougi

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Post n°314

Re: PAK-DA: News

higurashihougi Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:16 am

We already seen similar news in the Tu-160 thread, but still, I want to put it into this because it has something to do with PAK DA.

http://tass.ru/en/russia/809303

Serial production of Russia’s strategic bomber Tupolev Tu-160M2 will be launched starting from 2023, and the implementation of the next-generation strategic bomber design project (prospective long-range aviation complex - PAK DA) will be somewhat shifted in time, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov told reporters on Friday.

And the garbage Western propagamedia waste no time to twisting the information and blabbering bullshit about PAK DA.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-stealthy-new-nuclear-bomber-big-trouble-13390
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/russian-pak-da-bomber-facing-major-problems-2015-7

Yeah, Russia has no money because of sanction lol1

PAK DA will be scrapped because Russia has no money lol1

KomissarBojanchev

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Post n°315

Re: PAK-DA: News

KomissarBojanchev Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:29 am

If the new Tu-160s are supposed to be a stopgap until the PAK DA is finished what's the point of them starting production in the distant 2023, just when the PAK DA is supposed to fly? If this is true the Tu-160M2(or whatever it's called) will be completely redundant and it will make more sense to focus all efforts on building more PAK DAs.

Why can't the Tu-160 production be restarted somewhere around 2017? That way it the aircraft will actually contribute to strengthening the Russian airforce in this uncertain international situation.

GarryB

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Post n°316

Re: PAK-DA: News

GarryB Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:46 pm

The new production Tu-160M2s are not a stop gap in the traditional sense... I rather suspect the New Blackjacks will stay in service with the PAK DA, so in effect the new Blackjacks will replace the Blackjacks, while the PAK DA will replace the Tu-95MS and Tu-22M3.

Big_Gazza

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Post n°317

Re: PAK-DA: News

Big_Gazza Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:49 am

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Why can't the Tu-160 production be restarted somewhere around 2017?

Probably two reasons:

1) Assembly lines need to be rebuilt, including plant for fabrication of the huge monolithic wing spars that were apparently built in Nulandistan for the original Tu-160s. It takes time to finance and build such facilities.
2) The Tu-160M will be subject to design upgrade, eg all new avionics, weapons, engine upgrades etc, and many of these systems will probably be the same as those intended for the PAK-DA. R&D and prototype testing needs to be performed and probably represents the critical path, so its no point rushing production of new airframes to meet some arbitrary "get-it-done-now" timeframe if the aircrafts vital systems are not going to be ready. Better to take time and put more effort into improving the airframe (eg decrease RCS to improve ability to avoid detection, reduce drag to facilitate supercruise if such is possible) to maximize the performance of the final product.

Svyatoslavich

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Post n°318

Re: PAK-DA: News

Svyatoslavich Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:59 pm

From what I had read in an old thread in mp.net, the Tu-160 has a huge one-piece titanium spine, and KAPO doesn't have the capacity to built this part anymore, and there are no incomplete parts anymore. Also, as nowadays Russian plants use more modern digital machine tools than the ones used to build originally the Tu-160 in the Soviet era, it is needed to digitize the production documentation, which is also a huge task and takes time.

GarryB

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Post n°319

Re: PAK-DA: News

GarryB Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:16 am

I am not an engineer, but from memory the box structure for the swing wing components on the aircraft... the huge bit that holds it all together to allow the wings to be swung within it is huge and is forged as one piece so there are no weak lines or seams.

That component was made in the Ukraine in a factory that would likely not be able to make the same thing again even if it was allowed to.

I suspect that with the introduction of new machine tools and construction methods and indeed new materials they might be able to build new aircraft even better and stronger than ever before.

When they upgraded the Tu-160s to M standard they mentioned weapon payload was increased from 40 tons to 45 tons... I rather suspect the max payload will further increase with the new aircraft production as new materials and new production techniques as well as new engines and smaller lighter components are integrated into the design.

With supercomputers they can further refine the aerodynamic shape and further reduce RCS.. though being an existing design rather than a from scratch stealth design there are limits as to how stealthy the aircraft can become.

Most importantly with new production tools and manufacturing techniques they should be able to build the aircraft with the precision it has been designed to.

mutantsushi

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Post n°320

Re: PAK-DA: News

mutantsushi Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:52 am

I believe VSMPO has a JV with Alcoa which is the largest forge in the world,
or maybe WAS the largest forge in the world until China blah blah...
but anyways, VSMPO bought into Alcoa's forge by bringing their titanium to the table,
AFAIK it is a 50/50 JV, but it is unlikely US pressure on Alcoa could prevent use of their Russian forge for Tu-160M...
Although with the production timetables mentioned, I wonder if redesigning pieces in composite would be better approach...
Using UAC's approach of oven-less composites, of course...

GarryB

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Post n°321

Re: PAK-DA: News

GarryB Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:13 am

Of course they might just build their own huge forge for the purpose of building large parts... stealth aircraft are better made with large components as it reduces the number of joins and connections that would otherwise need to be hidden.

Equally it would allow larger wing spars on larger aircraft like big transports which would also make them stronger.... there were reasons to make the biggest forge there so those reasons would still apply today presumably.

they could even expand its use to modern airships and other large structures.

KomissarBojanchev

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Post n°322

Re: PAK-DA: News

KomissarBojanchev Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:21 am

Damn shame the Tu-160 will remain a critically endangered species for 6 more years....

higurashihougi

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Post n°323

Re: PAK-DA: News

higurashihougi Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:32 am

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Damn shame the Tu-160 will remain a critically endangered species for 6 more years....

Biggest species of Cygnus genus What a Face

Cygnus tupolevnensis pwnd

mutantsushi

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Post n°324

Re: PAK-DA: News

mutantsushi Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:32 am

GarryB wrote:Of course they might just build their own huge forge for the purpose of building large parts...

Sure, but if it's large enough to be fit for purpose, what's the harm in letting the Americans pay for it? :-)

2SPOOKY4U

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Post n°325

Re: PAK-DA: News

2SPOOKY4U Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:58 am

I for one, am glad that the PAK-DA is being shifted back, and more supersonic Tu-160M2s are being built.

Rogozin prevailed in the raising of PAK-DAs requirements.

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