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    PAK-DA: News

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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:49 pm

    If the aircraft is to be entering service in 2020 then trying to make a hypersonic bomber would be very expensive... it would be much cheaper to simply reopen Tu-160 production.

    However I do think hypersonic technology will be very useful and improve Russian capabilities in a lot of areas but I don't think the cost is currently justified.

    Just to clarify unless they are being used as a first strike capability the bombers will most likely get through because their flight times mean that SLBMs and then ICBM warheads will have obliterated the enemies air defences already and there wont be much coming up to meet them... further more on strategic missions current Russian bombers will be carrying 5,000km range cruise missiles so will not need to get very close to their targets anyway.

    Personally I think a large super cruising flying wing with horizontal tail surface and some thrust vector capability to optimise trim and minimise drag would be the ideal future bomber solution. 5th gen engines, perhaps with a ramjet or scramjet booster for high speed sprints when needed, or perhaps long range low burn cruise.

    Hypersonic technology should be financially supported but the focus should start with missiles (both attack and defence... ie cruise and SAM). When the technology is perfected then it can be adapted for fighter and bomber use.

    Ultimately I would love to see a mixed 5th or 6th gen turbojet combined with a scramjet for operation from a conventional runway to orbit.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:31 am

    I don't think a hypersonic bomber was ever seriously considered apart from some sensationalist media articles. The focus should be (as said here before) on the bomber being armed with LR hypersonic missiles.
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    Sujoy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:52 am

    Cyberspec wrote:The focus should be (as said here before) on the bomber being armed with LR hypersonic missiles

    This work is almost done , laboratory hypersonic condition tests have been successful and within the next 4 years you will see TU 160s launch LR hypersonic missiles ( test launches) . The intention is to create a weapon which would not differ much from the existing BrahMos/ Yakhont missile in weight and dimensions. This way, the weapon can be used in existing launchers on ships or mobile launchers. Moscow Aviation Institute is fine tuning the scramjet for this hypersonic missile currently.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:51 pm

    I don't think a hypersonic bomber was ever seriously considered apart from some sensationalist media articles.

    During WWI many experts would laugh at the idea of aircraft becoming an important part of war let alone displacing battleships as the ruler of the seas.

    In 1939 the idea of a supersonic bomber would be absurd, and the idea of a supersonic fighter a bit gaga too.

    Of course the next few years saw a lot of concentrated effort and money but both became realities because of the jet engine.

    With perfected scramjet engines hypersonic bombers become a much more viable goal, though not without problems.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:27 am

    I agree in the longer term. 2020 isn't that far off though....but I won't be complaining if I'm wrong
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:32 am

    I must admit to being largely ignorant of the current state of the art in Russia concerning scramjet technology.

    I know they have some of the best hypersonic wind tunnels and that the Europeans use them when they can... but making a whole bomber supersonic requires a lot of energy and the first few models will not be cheap.

    I prefer a more conservative approach with a tailed flying wing configuration that perhaps uses supercruise capability that wont cost too much to build or operate and can be built in sufficient numbers to allow the Bear to retire and to have a single aircraft performing theatre and strategic conventional and nuclear missions.

    Once long range subsonic and hypersonic cruise missiles are perfected then I would love to see scramjet technology more widely applied including with fighters and bombers and also with civilian aircraft.

    It really is the technology that will get us into space much quicker and cheaper.

    It is good to aim high, but at the moment it is hard to justify the expense of a hypersonic bomber.

    A supercruising bomber or supercruising very large aircraft has promise in terms of long range interceptor and maritime patrol aircraft replacement.
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  George1 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:24 am

    New Russian bomber taking shape

    The development of the Russian Perspective Aviation Complex of Long-Range Aviation (PAK DA) which is to replace Tupolev-95MC and Tupolev-22M3 planes, except the latest Tupolev-160, in the 2020s-2030s is being discussed in the press again.

    According to some reports, the Russian Air Force have already chosen the shape of the new plane. It is to be a small inconspicuous long-distance subsonic plane. The media report that the development of the new plane is being carried out by the Tupolev Design Bureau.

    Some information published by the media raises experts’ doubts. First of all, many experts do not believe that the Tupolev Design Bureau is capable of independently developing such a large-scale project. In this connection it is believed that one of the participants in the project, if not the chief developer, will be the Sukhoi Design Bureau. It has enough experience in designing heavy planes, though it has never designed long-distance bombers.

    It is believed that the PAK DA project could be based on the results obtained while making the T-50 fifth-generation fighter.

    It is not the ultimate truth either that the speed of the new plane would not exceed the speed of the sound. One should take it into consideration that the prospective bomber is not only to replace the strategic Tupolev-95 but also Tupolev-22M long-distance bombers one of whose tasks is fighting against the enemy’s Navy. In this case supersonic speeds are essential.

    Russia has inherited the USSR’s huge experience in the development and operation of the Air Force long-distance supersonic aircraft and naval missile-carrying supersonic aircraft. A platform for long-distance flights at maximum supersonic speeds could also be useful for reconnaissance and targeting in the Russian Navy. The Navy always stakes on the fire power of rocket launchers and submarines. For these vessels an outside firing pointer is of paramount importance.

    Hard to say how much this reasoning coincides with the train of thought of the Russian Defence Ministry or the United Aircraft-Building Corporation. However, it is not too long to wait now, as the new aircraft is to rise into the sky before the end of this decade.

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2013_03_10/New-Russian-bomber-taking-shape/
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    Sujoy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:52 pm

    China too has declared that it is working on developing a Strategic Bomber . The first picture ( artist's impression) were published by the Chinese Military aviation :



    The bomber tentatively named H X has been described by Chinese military as a stealthy flying wing configuration.China's 603rd Institute/Xian Aircraft Company will handle the development .

    The H-X bomber is expected to be powered by a non-afterburning derivative of the Shenyang Liming WS-10 turbofan, according the posting. The aircraft would also likely carry CJ-10K/CJ-20K air launched cruise missiles internally on a rotary launcher.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:59 pm

    Personally I would love to see a Russian flying wing that has the addition of a horizontal tail surface. The main purpose on the rear tail surface is to allow a shift in trim/balance to allow supersonic flight... not super high speed supersonic flight, I am thinking more of supercruising at mach 1.6-1.8 or so.

    This would be as serious problem for most current fighter/interceptors as they generally operate subsonically or high supersonically... the latter uses up their fuel very rapidly and reduces their flight performance. Exceptions being Mig-25/31 and F-22 of course, but I don't think the F-22 will supercruise fast enough and will have to burn fuel at a high rate to get to a good launch position.

    They could experiment with ramjet and even scramjet engines for the new supersonic bomber as a scramjet is just a empty space where air goes in, fuel is added and burned supersonically and exits to creates thrust... a variable cycle 5th gen bomber engine could have a scramjet air bypass stage...
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    nemrod

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  nemrod on Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:40 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:Russia may renounce the development of a new bomber

    RIA Novosti, April 6. The modernized strategic bombers Tu-160 can replace the development of promising new set of long-range aviation, said Tuesday by the deputy defense minister for armament Vladimir Popovkin.

    "The Americans have decided to extend the resource B-52 to 70 years. We are not richer than them," - he said, replying to a question whether there was work to modernize the Tu-160 or the development of a promising new set of long-range aviation.

    RIA Novosti

    Wise and very intelligent decision.
    USA are in bankrupcy, and cannot afford to sustain a huge military-industrial complex for longtime. Their regim could be collapse. Why Russia, will have to follow blindly USA ? Does Russia want another Yetlsin's revolution as it happenned during 1990's. Russia had other priorities.
    However the research will have to continue.
    Russia is not a predator state, is not imperialist country, moreover, most US hardware are not directed against Russia, neither against China, but against weak regime -however rich countries- like Sudan, Libya, North Korea.
    F-22 too is operationnal not against Russia, neither China, but against Su-27 familly's proliferation.
    Iam surprised why Russia is trying to follow USA regarding this stealth aircraft.
    What Su-Pak Fa will bring more ?
    What are the benefits for Russia without regarding Research/Developpment ?
    Pak-Fa, must be a very good aircraft, russians will have to be proud of it, however industrials production is another question.
    Weapons industry will have to exist, and should be defense, in order to defend Russia, not to ruin another time again Russia.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:16 pm

    Although I do agree that as long as Russia has a good stock of nuclear warheads that makes it invulnerable against NATo aggression it does need to research into more advanced hardware if not build them in large numbers. the tu-160 replacement could be useful as a more survivable nuclear missile truck so cancelling it would be stupid IMO. As for the army it needs constant development on its effectiveness to destroy insurgents and naughty conventional armies like Suckasswilly's. Also having better APCs and tanks is a matter of national pride and respect. As for navy I think Russia should develop in more blue-water capability so it could assist overseas countries like Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Serbia, Syria, etc. against western colonialism.
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    nemrod

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  nemrod on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:59 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote: As for navy I think Russia should develop in more blue-water capability.....

    One the great challenge tomorow, is seas' presences. Since the begining of last century, the Russia's weak point -even soviet era- was Navy.
    It is one of Russias's top priorities, to enhance it capacities in all oceans, however in cooperation with China, as agessive USA is decided more than never to make troubles everywhere in the world.
    Russia has the capacity, but it will be more efficient with cooperations, for example with China, India, Brazil, even Germany. Indeed Berlin wants to break with Nato. Russia will have to exploit this card.
    In this circumstances, an expensive stealth bomber's program is not welcome, just only for Research/Developpment.
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    Viktor

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:19 am

    Word of flying wing design reminds people of B-2. It is obviously difficult to imagine any other shape as most of the guys

    start accusing of copy-paste straight away. Most people forget that there can be many different flying wing design.

    Anyway there was one picture a concept art made by some guy but still based on the real project from SSSR and as most of Soviet/Russian

    design this one is rather interesting too. It might be that this or something like this is how future Russian bomber will look like.

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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:38 am

    Except that that design is actually older than the Tu-160.

    That is the T-4MS and was one of the alternative designs they considered before they built the Tu-160.
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    Zivo

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Zivo on Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:47 pm

    It's also supposed to be subsonic.

    If the requirements stated are actually correct, expect something like a B-2.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:41 am

    Of course the one genuine advantage of subsonic bombers is the ability to carry large strangely shaped weapons externally without heavily impacting performance.

    Such a thing would have a seriously negative effect on RCS but with a 5,000km range hypersonic cruise missile it wont matter.

    Austin

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:20 pm

    New US Bomber LRS-B will have features of B-2 according to Janes

    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/04/30/lrsb/


    Will new Russian bomber will be able to compete with new American Bomber ?
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 01, 2013 11:06 am

    You do ask the strangest questions sometimes Austin.

    Do you think there is a lucrative market for exporting next generation bombers?

    How do you define the best?

    I would think the main question for the Russians is, "Does the new bomber we are going to spend a significant amount of money on do the job for which it is intended, or does it make sense to spend it on other things?"

    It really doesn't matter at all whether the new Russian bomber is better or worse than the proposed US bomber, just the same as the main Russian tank needs a gun that can penetrate enemy armour and meaningful battlefield ranges... just being the most powerful gun is not of any use.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  flamming_python on Wed May 01, 2013 11:43 am

    What relevance does it have for Russian strategic bomber development - what the Americans decide to do?
    Can someone explain please.
    So if America decides to hold off its next-gen bomber development; why should that effect Russia's decision in any way?

    Unless of course the Russian decision on the development of their next-gen bomber was based on some other factors other than what exactly is needed in order to guarantee Russia's defense.
    In which case it was a bad decision-making process from the start
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 01, 2013 2:10 pm

    Unless of course the Russian decision on the development of their next-gen bomber was based on some other factors other than what exactly is needed in order to guarantee Russia's defense.
    In which case it was a bad decision-making process from the start

    Exactly... to determine if the PAK DA is a good bomber or not you don't compare it with any US bomber, you look at its attributes and try to determine what Russia expects from it and then assess whether it will achieve these goals without being too expensive.

    If the design influences the design of other aircraft you can be sure it was sucessful... but that is another aspect.

    Austin

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Austin on Wed May 01, 2013 7:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:You do ask the strangest questions sometimes Austin.

    Do you think there is a lucrative market for exporting next generation bombers?

    How do you define the best?

    I would think the main question for the Russians is, "Does the new bomber we are going to spend a significant amount of money on do the job for which it is intended, or does it make sense to spend it on other things?"

    It really doesn't matter at all whether the new Russian bomber is better or worse than the proposed US bomber, just the same as the main Russian tank needs a gun that can penetrate enemy armour and meaningful battlefield ranges... just being the most powerful gun is not of any use.

    Ofcourse the Russians do compare their aircraft with american , check Putin statement of PAK-FA when compared to F-22 and even lately where he compared it with F-35.

    Comparasion with PAK-DA with LRS-B would eventually come up for sure
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    Viktor

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Viktor on Thu May 02, 2013 12:29 am

    Austin wrote:Ofcourse the Russians do compare their aircraft with american , check Putin statement of PAK-FA when compared to F-22 and even lately where he compared it with F-35.

    Comparasion with PAK-DA with LRS-B would eventually come up for sure

    PAK-FA has export potential and PAK-DA don`t.

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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 02, 2013 3:04 am

    Ofcourse the Russians do compare their aircraft with american , check Putin statement of PAK-FA when compared to F-22 and even lately where he compared it with F-35.

    Perhaps that is because he recognises the ignorance of the western audience and that most would not know what a PAK FA is unless he mentions their US equivalents, though in this case when the PAK FA enters service it will be facing NATO F-35s along its border and both aircraft and potentially... though unlikely the F-22 might be forward deployed too.

    In the case of strategic bombers the most that will happen is that they will pass each other over the north pole where their relative merits and flaws will mean little.

    Comparasion with PAK-DA with LRS-B would eventually come up for sure

    Only as a meaningless dick measuring contest.

    PAK-FA has export potential and PAK-DA don`t.

    And PAK FA is a fighter that might have to fight an F-35 or F-22... strategic bombers never face each other... though imagine the concept of a WWII bomber interceptor developed from a heavy bomber with armour and heavy guns instead of a bomb payload that flies up to enemy bomber formations and shoots them down... fuel and range would not be important and could be replaced with ammo and armour and large calibre guns to allow these interceptors to fire on the enemy bombers from outside 50 cal range...

    The modern equivalent could replace the armour and guns with long range AAMs and a big powerful radar and Electro optic sights.
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    Sujoy

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    PAK DA - News

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:15 pm

    Voice Of Russia wrote:Air Force Commander Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev said that all the relevant document were signed allowing the industry to begin the development of systems for the plane.

    According to the RIA Novosti, Russian Air Force commander insisted that the aircraft will be equipped with advanced electronic warfare systems and armed with new nuclear-capable long-range cruise missiles, and will be able to carry a wide array of conventional precision guided weapons.

    Here are more details about the project by expert at Centre for Strategic Technology Analysis, Vasily Kashin.

    The new Prospective Air Complex for Long Range Aviation (PAK DA) will replace the Tu-95MS and Tu-160 bombers that Russia is using now. The Tupolev Designing Bureau will develop the new bomber. It will deliver its plan for the development of the aircraft and the estimation of the cost of this work to the Defence Ministry.

    Reportedly, the serial production of the bomber is expected to start in 2020. However, some other reports say that the aircraft will make its maiden flight in 2020. Concerning its engines, their development was started in 2011. It's quite possible that the aircraft will be equipped with the updated models of the 117S or NK-32 advanced engines. The weapon systems are also being developed.

    It has been suggested that the bomber will carry X-101 cruise missiles that can hit a target at a distance of 5,500 kilometers. Moreover it may carry short-range missiles and glide bombs.

    At present, according to the approved project, the future bomber will be built under the "flying-wing" scheme similar to the American B-2 Spirit. At present, this is the only stealth strategic bomber that has been developed to a level for launching serial production. The price of a bomber with the necessary equipment and spare parts was estimated at over $900 million in the 1990s, while the overall cost of the development and the production of all aircraft was about $45 billion.

    Most likely, similar to the American B-2, the Russian bomber will fly at a high subsonic speed. Basic attention will be focused on its long-range and stealth technology. In this case, the Russian bomber will differ from the future Chinese strategic bomber, which judging by mock-up models, will be a supersonic aircraft.

    At the same time, analysts insist that the Chinese project will cost huge sums and experience technical difficulties when taking into account, that unlike the U.S. and Russia, China has no experience at all in this area. Practically, if China wants to implement the programme up to serial production, it will have to spend huge sums comparable to that of the entire manned-space programme.

    In fact, the Russian project is not starting from scratch. The Tupolev Design Bureau worked on the Tu-202 project in the 1970s and 1980s. It planned to develop this aircraft in two versions, strategic bomber and long-range anti-submarine aircraft.

    The aircraft was planned to be built according to the "flying wing" design. Its total range was 16,000 kilometers, while the range of the bomber carrying 6 cruise missiles was 5,500 kilometers. In the 1980s, a large number of aerodynamic experiments were carried out using models of the aircraft.

    New strategic bomber projects are always linked with huge technical risks. Nevertheless, the development of the PAK DA will provide Russia an effective system capable of hitting targets at any points on the Earth, within several hours of receiving the order, without need for foreign bases.


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    Sujoy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:21 pm


    Military Russia.ru wrote:According to the General Director of JSC "Tupolev" I.Shevchuka at the MAKS-2009 - a contract under the program PAK DA won KB them. Tupolev and in 2009 the Russian Defense Ministry has signed a contract with JSC "Tupolev" on research and development on the basis of the design bomber Tu-160 (with government funding of R & D started in 2008). 23.12.2009 President of "Tupolev" Alexander Bobrishev said that research on the PAK DA will be completed in 2012 and CB ready to continue with the ROC, which will be completed in 2017 In 2011 VNIIRA to the preliminary design of the PAK DA developed a preliminary design of the integration complex avionics. YES Russian Air Force command issued to create TTP bomber 20.12.2011 By February 2012 R & D PAK DA is being developed and completed preliminary design of aircraft. Estimated date of the first flight (according to the plans in 2007) - 2015-2017 gg, summer 2009 announced that the first flight will take place in 2015 In late 2011, the first flight of the prototype is scheduled for 2020, the adoption of the aircraft into service is scheduled for 2025 June 28, 2012 appeared in the media statement of Commander of the Air Force Major General Victor Bondarev about that. that the image plane is formed and maintained tactical refinement specification. According to statements made ​​to the press in 2011 - the first half of 2012 the first flight is expected in 2020 September 26, 2012 in a press statement, Air Force Commander Viktor Bondar said that the development of the PAK DA goes according to plan, the shape of the aircraft (once again ) approved. The emergence of the first plane and the beginning of the test has been planned for 2022 ( source ). April 11, 2013 Russian Air Force Commander Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondar said that "the creation of the complex is on the program. His principal face is formed, acts signed, and now the industry begins elemental design of systems in the plane. " Production of the aircraft in the future it is planned at the Kazan aircraft plant. July 9, 2013 in the media announced that the development of the aircraft will begin in 2014, "Tupolev" will finish the work on the tactical and technical characteristics of the PAK DA until the end of 2013 and in early 2014 the Ministry of Defense of Russia will present a calculation of the budget of research on the project. According to current plans, the mass production of bombers to begin in 2020.

    The design of the aircraft is performed with extensive use of composites and radar absorbing materials to facilitate and reduce the structural weight of the EPR aircraft. engines: in 2011 raoty started the engines for the PAK DA. In the development of engines involved FSUE "CIAM. Baranov ': - the beginning of 2012 held justification appearance and basic data for pre-and supersonic options PAK DA; - Developed preliminary design of the engine; - formed a list of critical technologies. ( source ) Option - 4 x turbofan engines with a thrust of 15500-18000 kg class "product 117C" (tentative information). Specific fuel consumption - 1 kg / km of track on one engine EYE "Kuznetsov" (engines NC) - in 2012 for the project development engine for the PAK DA A technical proposal for the motor to turn in the preliminary design of the PAK DA ( ist. - Chujko .) You probably use engine NK-32 of the second phase of modernization of production of "Smiths" with a thrust of up to 30,000 kg. The engine must be prepared in 2017-2018 yy Perhaps in the source engine is not mentioned in connection with the program PAK DA, and in connection with the modernization program of the Tu-160 ( source ). TTX Aircraft : Weight - about 125,000 kg Fuel weight - up to 50,000 kg Range - 12500 km Radius - 6000 -9000 km (probably with refueling) Max Speed ​​- 1.5-2 M Cruising - more than 1 M

    Armament:
    - KRBD type of X-101 and similar advanced models;
    - High-precision ASD and Raman short-range, including protivoradillokatsionnye (to break the enemy's air defense);
    - Svobodnopadayuschie bombs;
    - The air carrier operational and strategic HANDS (reconnaissance-strike complex) with air-launched ballistic missiles (for example, type " Iskander ", according to media reports from 2005);
    - Discusses the use of a plane missiles "air" for self-defense.

    Equipment : preliminary design of complex avionics integratsionnnogo to preliminary design prepared by the PAK DA VNIIRA in 2011 ( source ).

    Status :
    - 2008 - open R & D funding PAK DA.

    - 2009 - The contract between the Ministry of Defense of Russia and JSC "Tupolev" R & D PAK DA.

    - 2009 - designed, probably in the next few years, the production of models or even prototypes, has not been tested.

    - 22 December 2009 - Commander of the Russian Air Force YES Major General Anatoly Zhiharev said the PAK DA will replace "and distant, and strategic bombers and missile carriers" Tu-160, Tu-95MS and Tu-22M3. also stated that the new bomber entered service in 2025-2030 godgodah. For the first time stated that the PAK DA will be replaced including and Tu-22M3, which indirectly confirms our vision of the concept PAK DA - all-mode supersonic bomber representing a something between a Tu-22M3 and Tu-160.

    - 2009 December 23 - in an interview with news agency "Interfax" the president of the company "Tupolev" Alexander Bobrishev said that research on the PAK DA will be completed in 2012 and CB ready to continue with research and development which will be completed in 2017 and is planned to build adopt 100 units in the period up to 2027. - 2010 - Tactical Missiles Corporation has prepared information and analysis on the weapon system PAK DA ( Tactical Missiles Corporation's annual report for 2010 .) - 2012 June 28 - appeared in the media statements of Commander of Air Force Maj. Gen. Victor Bondarev that the appearance of the aircraft has already been formed and maintained tactical refinement specification.

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