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    PAK-DA: News

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    Austin
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Austin on Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:48 am

    Russian's next-generation bomber takes shape
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  George1 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:42 pm

    New Russian Bomber 'Will Not be Hypersonic'

    MOSCOW, November 14 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's future PAK-DA manned bomber project will not have hypersonic speed capability, Russia's bomber force commander said on Wednesday, in an apparent contradiction of claims by Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin earlier this year.

    "PAK-DA, currently under development, will not be hypersonic," Lt. Gen. Anatoly Zhikharev told RIA Novosti on Wednesday.

    The first prototpe PAK-DA is due to enter service around 2020, he added.

    Hypersonic speeds are high supersonic, usually referring to Mach five and above, which can usually only be generated using advanced propulsion technology such as ramjet or scramjet engines. No manned aircraft has yet been flown using such technologies, which are on the cutting edge of aerospace know-how.

    Zhikharev's statement follows a protracted exchange in the media between senior air force officers, including himself, and Rogozin, who has special responsibility for the arms industry, over what shape PAK-DA should take.

    Rogozin repeated in August an earlier appeal for Russia to develop a hypersonic aircraft for its PAK-DA long-range bomber requirement.

    "I think we need to go down the route of hypersonic technology and we are moving in that direction and are not falling behind the Americans," he said on Rossiya 24 TV. "We will use this technology when developing a new bomber."

    In June, President Vladimir Putin ordered initial development of the new long-range bomber for strategic aviation. Speaking during a conference on defense orders, Putin said: "We have to develop work on the new PAK-DA long-range bomber aircraft for Long-Range Aviation. The task is not easy from a scientific-technical standpoint, but we need to start work."

    Rogozin initially said in June he saw no need for PAK-DA to replace the air force's aging Tu-95MS cruise-missile carriers and Tu-160 supersonic bombers.

    “These aircraft will not get anywhere. Not ours, not theirs,” he said in an interview with Izvestia that month. He later clarified his statement by saying he was in favor of developing a future bomber, but it should not just be a copy of the serving US Northrop B-2 and should employ hypersonic technology.

    In May, he called on Russia's defense industry to develop hypersonic air-breathing weapons as a future strike system. He cited American development work in the X-51, Falcon, HiFire and HyFly hypersonic programs as examples of what he described as the perspective threat posed by U.S. hypersonic development work.

    Some aerospace analysts RIA Novosti has previously spoken to say Rogozin's comments are more likely to be relevant to a future air-launched missile, rather than the bomber that launches it.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121114/177455565.html

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Austin on Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:34 pm

    Thankfully some sanity prevailed in the general staff and they are not dancing to hypersonic tune Rolling Eyes
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:39 pm

    Hypersonic speeds are high supersonic, usually referring to Mach five and above, which can usually only be generated using advanced propulsion technology such as ramjet or scramjet engines.

    I am not sure if Russia needs a strategic bomber in the near future as sufficient number of TU 160s will more than suffice. Expediting work on a Pulse Detonation engine will be worth the effort.
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:49 pm

    If the aircraft is to be entering service in 2020 then trying to make a hypersonic bomber would be very expensive... it would be much cheaper to simply reopen Tu-160 production.

    However I do think hypersonic technology will be very useful and improve Russian capabilities in a lot of areas but I don't think the cost is currently justified.

    Just to clarify unless they are being used as a first strike capability the bombers will most likely get through because their flight times mean that SLBMs and then ICBM warheads will have obliterated the enemies air defences already and there wont be much coming up to meet them... further more on strategic missions current Russian bombers will be carrying 5,000km range cruise missiles so will not need to get very close to their targets anyway.

    Personally I think a large super cruising flying wing with horizontal tail surface and some thrust vector capability to optimise trim and minimise drag would be the ideal future bomber solution. 5th gen engines, perhaps with a ramjet or scramjet booster for high speed sprints when needed, or perhaps long range low burn cruise.

    Hypersonic technology should be financially supported but the focus should start with missiles (both attack and defence... ie cruise and SAM). When the technology is perfected then it can be adapted for fighter and bomber use.

    Ultimately I would love to see a mixed 5th or 6th gen turbojet combined with a scramjet for operation from a conventional runway to orbit.


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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:31 am

    I don't think a hypersonic bomber was ever seriously considered apart from some sensationalist media articles. The focus should be (as said here before) on the bomber being armed with LR hypersonic missiles.
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:52 am

    Cyberspec wrote:The focus should be (as said here before) on the bomber being armed with LR hypersonic missiles

    This work is almost done , laboratory hypersonic condition tests have been successful and within the next 4 years you will see TU 160s launch LR hypersonic missiles ( test launches) . The intention is to create a weapon which would not differ much from the existing BrahMos/ Yakhont missile in weight and dimensions. This way, the weapon can be used in existing launchers on ships or mobile launchers. Moscow Aviation Institute is fine tuning the scramjet for this hypersonic missile currently.
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:51 pm

    I don't think a hypersonic bomber was ever seriously considered apart from some sensationalist media articles.

    During WWI many experts would laugh at the idea of aircraft becoming an important part of war let alone displacing battleships as the ruler of the seas.

    In 1939 the idea of a supersonic bomber would be absurd, and the idea of a supersonic fighter a bit gaga too.

    Of course the next few years saw a lot of concentrated effort and money but both became realities because of the jet engine.

    With perfected scramjet engines hypersonic bombers become a much more viable goal, though not without problems.


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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:27 am

    I agree in the longer term. 2020 isn't that far off though....but I won't be complaining if I'm wrong
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:32 am

    I must admit to being largely ignorant of the current state of the art in Russia concerning scramjet technology.

    I know they have some of the best hypersonic wind tunnels and that the Europeans use them when they can... but making a whole bomber supersonic requires a lot of energy and the first few models will not be cheap.

    I prefer a more conservative approach with a tailed flying wing configuration that perhaps uses supercruise capability that wont cost too much to build or operate and can be built in sufficient numbers to allow the Bear to retire and to have a single aircraft performing theatre and strategic conventional and nuclear missions.

    Once long range subsonic and hypersonic cruise missiles are perfected then I would love to see scramjet technology more widely applied including with fighters and bombers and also with civilian aircraft.

    It really is the technology that will get us into space much quicker and cheaper.

    It is good to aim high, but at the moment it is hard to justify the expense of a hypersonic bomber.

    A supercruising bomber or supercruising very large aircraft has promise in terms of long range interceptor and maritime patrol aircraft replacement.


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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  George1 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:24 am

    New Russian bomber taking shape

    The development of the Russian Perspective Aviation Complex of Long-Range Aviation (PAK DA) which is to replace Tupolev-95MC and Tupolev-22M3 planes, except the latest Tupolev-160, in the 2020s-2030s is being discussed in the press again.

    According to some reports, the Russian Air Force have already chosen the shape of the new plane. It is to be a small inconspicuous long-distance subsonic plane. The media report that the development of the new plane is being carried out by the Tupolev Design Bureau.

    Some information published by the media raises experts’ doubts. First of all, many experts do not believe that the Tupolev Design Bureau is capable of independently developing such a large-scale project. In this connection it is believed that one of the participants in the project, if not the chief developer, will be the Sukhoi Design Bureau. It has enough experience in designing heavy planes, though it has never designed long-distance bombers.

    It is believed that the PAK DA project could be based on the results obtained while making the T-50 fifth-generation fighter.

    It is not the ultimate truth either that the speed of the new plane would not exceed the speed of the sound. One should take it into consideration that the prospective bomber is not only to replace the strategic Tupolev-95 but also Tupolev-22M long-distance bombers one of whose tasks is fighting against the enemy’s Navy. In this case supersonic speeds are essential.

    Russia has inherited the USSR’s huge experience in the development and operation of the Air Force long-distance supersonic aircraft and naval missile-carrying supersonic aircraft. A platform for long-distance flights at maximum supersonic speeds could also be useful for reconnaissance and targeting in the Russian Navy. The Navy always stakes on the fire power of rocket launchers and submarines. For these vessels an outside firing pointer is of paramount importance.

    Hard to say how much this reasoning coincides with the train of thought of the Russian Defence Ministry or the United Aircraft-Building Corporation. However, it is not too long to wait now, as the new aircraft is to rise into the sky before the end of this decade.

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2013_03_10/New-Russian-bomber-taking-shape/
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:52 pm

    China too has declared that it is working on developing a Strategic Bomber . The first picture ( artist's impression) were published by the Chinese Military aviation :



    The bomber tentatively named H X has been described by Chinese military as a stealthy flying wing configuration.China's 603rd Institute/Xian Aircraft Company will handle the development .

    The H-X bomber is expected to be powered by a non-afterburning derivative of the Shenyang Liming WS-10 turbofan, according the posting. The aircraft would also likely carry CJ-10K/CJ-20K air launched cruise missiles internally on a rotary launcher.
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:59 pm

    Personally I would love to see a Russian flying wing that has the addition of a horizontal tail surface. The main purpose on the rear tail surface is to allow a shift in trim/balance to allow supersonic flight... not super high speed supersonic flight, I am thinking more of supercruising at mach 1.6-1.8 or so.

    This would be as serious problem for most current fighter/interceptors as they generally operate subsonically or high supersonically... the latter uses up their fuel very rapidly and reduces their flight performance. Exceptions being Mig-25/31 and F-22 of course, but I don't think the F-22 will supercruise fast enough and will have to burn fuel at a high rate to get to a good launch position.

    They could experiment with ramjet and even scramjet engines for the new supersonic bomber as a scramjet is just a empty space where air goes in, fuel is added and burned supersonically and exits to creates thrust... a variable cycle 5th gen bomber engine could have a scramjet air bypass stage...


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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  nemrod on Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:40 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:Russia may renounce the development of a new bomber

    RIA Novosti, April 6. The modernized strategic bombers Tu-160 can replace the development of promising new set of long-range aviation, said Tuesday by the deputy defense minister for armament Vladimir Popovkin.

    "The Americans have decided to extend the resource B-52 to 70 years. We are not richer than them," - he said, replying to a question whether there was work to modernize the Tu-160 or the development of a promising new set of long-range aviation.

    RIA Novosti

    Wise and very intelligent decision.
    USA are in bankrupcy, and cannot afford to sustain a huge military-industrial complex for longtime. Their regim could be collapse. Why Russia, will have to follow blindly USA ? Does Russia want another Yetlsin's revolution as it happenned during 1990's. Russia had other priorities.
    However the research will have to continue.
    Russia is not a predator state, is not imperialist country, moreover, most US hardware are not directed against Russia, neither against China, but against weak regime -however rich countries- like Sudan, Libya, North Korea.
    F-22 too is operationnal not against Russia, neither China, but against Su-27 familly's proliferation.
    Iam surprised why Russia is trying to follow USA regarding this stealth aircraft.
    What Su-Pak Fa will bring more ?
    What are the benefits for Russia without regarding Research/Developpment ?
    Pak-Fa, must be a very good aircraft, russians will have to be proud of it, however industrials production is another question.
    Weapons industry will have to exist, and should be defense, in order to defend Russia, not to ruin another time again Russia.
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:16 pm

    Although I do agree that as long as Russia has a good stock of nuclear warheads that makes it invulnerable against NATo aggression it does need to research into more advanced hardware if not build them in large numbers. the tu-160 replacement could be useful as a more survivable nuclear missile truck so cancelling it would be stupid IMO. As for the army it needs constant development on its effectiveness to destroy insurgents and naughty conventional armies like Suckasswilly's. Also having better APCs and tanks is a matter of national pride and respect. As for navy I think Russia should develop in more blue-water capability so it could assist overseas countries like Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Serbia, Syria, etc. against western colonialism.
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  nemrod on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:59 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote: As for navy I think Russia should develop in more blue-water capability.....

    One the great challenge tomorow, is seas' presences. Since the begining of last century, the Russia's weak point -even soviet era- was Navy.
    It is one of Russias's top priorities, to enhance it capacities in all oceans, however in cooperation with China, as agessive USA is decided more than never to make troubles everywhere in the world.
    Russia has the capacity, but it will be more efficient with cooperations, for example with China, India, Brazil, even Germany. Indeed Berlin wants to break with Nato. Russia will have to exploit this card.
    In this circumstances, an expensive stealth bomber's program is not welcome, just only for Research/Developpment.
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:19 am

    Word of flying wing design reminds people of B-2. It is obviously difficult to imagine any other shape as most of the guys

    start accusing of copy-paste straight away. Most people forget that there can be many different flying wing design.

    Anyway there was one picture a concept art made by some guy but still based on the real project from SSSR and as most of Soviet/Russian

    design this one is rather interesting too. It might be that this or something like this is how future Russian bomber will look like.

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:38 am

    Except that that design is actually older than the Tu-160.

    That is the T-4MS and was one of the alternative designs they considered before they built the Tu-160.


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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Zivo on Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:47 pm

    It's also supposed to be subsonic.

    If the requirements stated are actually correct, expect something like a B-2.
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:41 am

    Of course the one genuine advantage of subsonic bombers is the ability to carry large strangely shaped weapons externally without heavily impacting performance.

    Such a thing would have a seriously negative effect on RCS but with a 5,000km range hypersonic cruise missile it wont matter.


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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:20 pm

    New US Bomber LRS-B will have features of B-2 according to Janes

    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/04/30/lrsb/


    Will new Russian bomber will be able to compete with new American Bomber ?
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 01, 2013 11:06 am

    You do ask the strangest questions sometimes Austin.

    Do you think there is a lucrative market for exporting next generation bombers?

    How do you define the best?

    I would think the main question for the Russians is, "Does the new bomber we are going to spend a significant amount of money on do the job for which it is intended, or does it make sense to spend it on other things?"

    It really doesn't matter at all whether the new Russian bomber is better or worse than the proposed US bomber, just the same as the main Russian tank needs a gun that can penetrate enemy armour and meaningful battlefield ranges... just being the most powerful gun is not of any use.


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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  flamming_python on Wed May 01, 2013 11:43 am

    What relevance does it have for Russian strategic bomber development - what the Americans decide to do?
    Can someone explain please.
    So if America decides to hold off its next-gen bomber development; why should that effect Russia's decision in any way?

    Unless of course the Russian decision on the development of their next-gen bomber was based on some other factors other than what exactly is needed in order to guarantee Russia's defense.
    In which case it was a bad decision-making process from the start
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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 01, 2013 2:10 pm

    Unless of course the Russian decision on the development of their next-gen bomber was based on some other factors other than what exactly is needed in order to guarantee Russia's defense.
    In which case it was a bad decision-making process from the start

    Exactly... to determine if the PAK DA is a good bomber or not you don't compare it with any US bomber, you look at its attributes and try to determine what Russia expects from it and then assess whether it will achieve these goals without being too expensive.

    If the design influences the design of other aircraft you can be sure it was sucessful... but that is another aspect.


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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Austin on Wed May 01, 2013 7:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:You do ask the strangest questions sometimes Austin.

    Do you think there is a lucrative market for exporting next generation bombers?

    How do you define the best?

    I would think the main question for the Russians is, "Does the new bomber we are going to spend a significant amount of money on do the job for which it is intended, or does it make sense to spend it on other things?"

    It really doesn't matter at all whether the new Russian bomber is better or worse than the proposed US bomber, just the same as the main Russian tank needs a gun that can penetrate enemy armour and meaningful battlefield ranges... just being the most powerful gun is not of any use.

    Ofcourse the Russians do compare their aircraft with american , check Putin statement of PAK-FA when compared to F-22 and even lately where he compared it with F-35.

    Comparasion with PAK-DA with LRS-B would eventually come up for sure

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