Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    SDF equipment/If you worked for Rosoboronexport

    Share
    avatar
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 964
    Points : 1128
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    reply

    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:31 pm

    medo wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:hi garry whats the general view of the upgraded T-72 in terms to western modern systems, as some people have on other forums that its still an old tank and that modern western stuff would still easily destroy them, and that no matter what upgrades you give them. I argued the fact it was cheaper to upgrade T-72's than to buy newer tanks, and that the upgrades brought them upto a decent standard of a modern tank capability.

    Also i believe that most forces these days are focusing on more mechanised and a force that is highly mobile rather than a seriously heavy force, times have changed since the cold war. But i do believe that its still wise to have a tank force, as war can be unpredictable.

    making reference about a thread that i created some time ago about a Scottish defence force, i think for a defence force/small force or a country with a small budget, its makes sense to buy a fully upgraded T-72 than a T-90, of course a T-90 is better but we all cant have the best equipment when a budget has to be considered. I think that even a mix of T-72 and T-90 would be better if budget allowed. A defence force may only have 2-4 tank regiments at most so you could have 1 regiment of each, and when Russia finally starts to replace its tank forces(wont be for a long time) you could replace the T-72's with T-90's.


    Hm, wasn't Scotland historically more connected with France? Maybe you could buy some used Mirages and surplus Leclerc tanks.


    it was a post it did a while ago u should it. As an independent country Scotland would be able to do deals with any country willing to do so. Infact this week Putin even said if Scotland wanted to join the customs union he wouldnt say no.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1185
    Points : 1338
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 19
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: SDF equipment/If you worked for Rosoboronexport

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:46 pm

    Since the scots have been fed with with antirussian propaganda for centuries by the british empire I rather doubt they would ever want to have anything to do with Russia.
    avatar
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 964
    Points : 1128
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    reply

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:59 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Since the scots have been fed with with antirussian propaganda for centuries by the british empire I rather doubt they would ever want to have anything to do with Russia.

    thats exactly one of the reasons for independence so Scotland can choose who it has relations with, Scotland has moved closer to china more so than westminister who quite often bad mouth china's human rights abuses. Scotland also has shown interest in the Scandinavian countries, and eastern europe. A Scottish defence force probably wouldnt want expensive western equipment, when they can get equipment which is cheaper to buy/maintain and fit for purpose, and if they chose russian equipment could heal relations which westminister has caused. It wouldnt be in a newly independent countries interest to have strained relations with other countries and especially ones which Scotland didnt make the choice. And in the case of Russia being hundreds of times bigger than Scotland and being not that far away i doubt they would continue to be anti russian.

    I dont want the T-80 thread to be taken over by this not fair on the author.

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16536
    Points : 17144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: SDF equipment/If you worked for Rosoboronexport

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:15 am

    hi garry whats the general view of the upgraded T-72 in terms to western modern systems, as some people have on other forums that its still an old tank and that modern western stuff would still easily destroy them,

    The use of the term 'easily' shows ignorance. Several models of T-72 had very heavy armour... they weren't called super dolly partons for nothing.

    Adding new ERA along will likely make them invulnerable to most western main gun ammo... does someone still think they are easy to defeat?

    The fact of the matter is that the purpose of the upgrade is largely to deal with communication and control as well as the ability to use new longer ammo and the addition of new night and all weather optics.

    With these upgrades the only advantage the T-80s had was power to weight ratio, which is pretty good anyway on the T-72s because they are not very heavy.

    I argued the fact it was cheaper to upgrade T-72's than to buy newer tanks, and that the upgrades brought them upto a decent standard of a modern tank capability.

    With new battle management hardware and software the upgraded vehicles can now practise net centric operations and with the new thermals they will be able to see through smoke and dust and train at night and in bad weather.

    Within the next ten years they will move to a next generation of system that will include tanks with the armour of a BMP or less, but also the armata MBT with much better armour.

    its makes sense to buy a fully upgraded T-72 than a T-90, of course a T-90 is better but we all cant have the best equipment when a budget has to be considered.

    A difficult question.

    The upgraded T-90 would certainly be more expensive, but it would also be better protected so even with a limited budget I would still save up for a fleet of all T-90s unless you want thousands of tanks.

    Certainly a mixed fleet of upgraded T-72s and T-90s might make sense in the short term... perhaps take some T-80s with a Black Eagle upgrade to begin with and then when they are worn out buy some T-90s (by then they will be cheaper and likely more capable).
    (and got the thread back on topic).

    A way to invest in the Ukraine would be to get the Russians to apply their black eagle autoloader upgrade to their T-80s and then put a new Ukrainian diesel engine in them to reduce operational costs.

    A change of calibre to 120mm would keep NATO compatibility too.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1185
    Points : 1338
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 19
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: SDF equipment/If you worked for Rosoboronexport

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:12 am

    Why not buy from the Ukrainians a few T-84 yatagan tanks? They have NATO compatible 120mm guns that are longer and I doubt with their current economic situation Kharkov would sell them for a very high price.
    avatar
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 964
    Points : 1128
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    reply

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:03 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Why not buy from the Ukrainians a few T-84 yatagan tanks? They have NATO compatible 120mm guns that are longer and I doubt with their current economic situation Kharkov would sell them for a very high price.


    buying from Ukraine is also a good idea and the t-84 are decent tanks and like u said will no doubt be cheap.

    I am visiting Ukraine in May, going with a few friends, one of them has a friend in the chernobyl ministry so were getting a tour of chernobyl (ive already been once already) but this time getting to see things tourists dont get to see, we are also staying in the zone at the ministry for 3 nights (something tourists cant do) ive also arrange some weapons to shoot (as i do in all my holidays) list of russian weapons i will be firing are: AK-47, Mosin Nagant revolver and rifle, Dragunov, and Ukrainian Fort pistol, and a few other weapons from various countries. Unable to do RPG shooting with the Ukrainian army due the current situation Sad


    Last edited by d_taddei2 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: SDF equipment/If you worked for Rosoboronexport

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:25 pm

    Wouldn't they just get Challangers from the UK?

    Or some other used Euro tank, forget about Ukraine lol.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16536
    Points : 17144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: SDF equipment/If you worked for Rosoboronexport

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:15 am

    buying from Ukraine is also a good idea and the t-84 are decent tanks and like u said will no doubt be cheap.

    If you want quality you wont be getting it legally if it is cheap... if you could then the Ukrainian Army would have them and they don't because they are not cheap.

    If Scotland were to buy a large batch of several thousand they might take the loss of selling a dozen cheap to seal the deal but the rest will not be cheap and they will try to make as much money as they can... because no one else seems to be buying...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3222
    Points : 3308
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: SDF equipment/If you worked for Rosoboronexport

    Post  medo on Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:58 pm

    Challenger 2 have rifled gun and with that special ammo, so if Scots want to be in NATO standard with 120 mm gun, but independent, it would be better to go with Leclerc or Leopard 2, because they are fully French or fully German without foreign parts in it. But they are expensive. But whatever Scotland buy from the West will be used, because in the West no new tanks were produced for more than a decade. From Russia they could buy new T-90 or wait for Armata, if they will be available with 120 mm NATO standard gun, but I doubt T-80 could be a good idea, because spare parts will be dependent on Ukraine.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1185
    Points : 1338
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 19
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: SDF equipment/If you worked for Rosoboronexport

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:03 pm

    TR1 wrote:Wouldn't they just get Challangers from the UK?

    Or some other used Euro tank, forget about Ukraine lol.
    Why do you always hate on the Kharkov designs?
    avatar
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 964
    Points : 1128
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    reply

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:52 pm

    TR1 wrote:Wouldn't they just get Challangers from the UK?

    Or some other used Euro tank, forget about Ukraine lol.

    well you would think that Scotland would get its share of the UK's challenger 2, but its can't be certain that the rest of the UK might say no or fallout over who gets what, and the Chobham armour is a state secret and they may make it awkward for them to have it, so it may be given a money settlement instead, which means they will have to look for tanks to purchase, and a newly independent country may want to try and save some money and go for something alittle cheaper than Leopard 2 any other euro tank. Upgraded T-72's would maybe be better for a defence force.
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    hi garry whats the general view of the upgraded T-72

    Post  TR1 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:18 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Wouldn't they just get Challangers from the UK?

    Or some other used Euro tank, forget about Ukraine lol.
    Why do you always hate on the Kharkov designs?

    Who said I hate on Kharkov designs?

    The fact remains:

    1.) They can barely build tanks today due to the unfortunate circumstances they found themselves in post 1991
    2.) The Yagatan does not confirm to modern standards without necessary modification: its not even a serial tank, kind of like T-90MS.
    3.) You seriously think if Scotland was looking for tanks they would look @ Ukraine? Get real.

    Sponsored content

    Re: SDF equipment/If you worked for Rosoboronexport

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:15 am